Can a wizard heal with resto staff as good as a templar can

Cryptical · November 2016

visionality wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Templers will run out of magic first and wont beable to heal anyone, Sorcerers through the use of their wards are able to keep themselves alive without the need of a healer, A healer who can keep themselves alive because they have powerful wards and don't run out of magicka is much better then someone who doesn't have wards and need to spam healing spells to keep their health up.

My conclusion only weaker groups need a Templer Healer, stronger groups who don't lose 9/10ths of their health every 5 seconds don't and would do better with a sorcerer healing them.

I've never seen a templar healer run out of magica

I've almost done it. In trials, on the bridge, half the group ran to the end to tackle the overchargers and the other half stayed in the middle on the boss troll, effectively creating a pair of 6-person groups in a trial. They were about 60meters apart, I shifted to between them, everything had to be done twice.

BalticBlues wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

Breath of life is the only skill you can spam

You cannot spam BOL. It is much too expensive. Spam it, and you are out of Magicka. The only class who can "spam" heals are Sorcs - while never running out of Magicka..

Yeah, breath can be spammed. It depends on regen. I don't even notice the cost unless I'm hitting that button over 6 times, always because someone is spending time in red.

@Shaiba is trying valiantly, with long mountains of text, to defend the sorc healer, but has everyone noticed the fundamental discrepancy? Shaiba says sorcs aren't inferior healers, sorcs are just different. BUT, Shaiba also says that a weak group will care about the class of the healer, and that a vet trial group will care about the composition of the group. See the bs revealed?

Shaiba, if sorcs and templars are actually just different... If neither is inferior to the other... If they both really were just as capable... If that were true... Then it would never matter which class was doing the healing.

But the instant you admitted that there are some content (trials) or circumstances (weak group) where a templar is needed, is the instant you admitted that a templar is better for the healer role.

Shaiba · November 2016

But the instant you admitted that there are some content (trials) or circumstances (weak group) where a templar is needed, is the instant you admitted that a templar is better for the healer role.

Quote me saying that. All I said is that in a group to have the full benefit of all classes (the buffs/debuffs of all classes), you will need to have all these classes in your group (logic isn't it ? ). It is as needed as having a sorc for sorc's buff, a DK to have DK's buff and a NB for NB's buff in your trial team. I never talk about a templar healer only templar as a class. You missed that point I think.

EDIT : I just came here to discuss reasonably with people, share our experiences, discuss about our healer's experiences. I have discussed with lot of kind people (who completely disagrees with me, but I liked discussing with them, I hope they'll recognize themselves ...) but I have also seen hostile people (clv who is hostile towards me for no reason, who didn't want to discuss only to taunt me and I don't want to play his little game, I don't think I was agressive toward him so I trully don't understand his overrated reaction), troll post (Enslaved) I give up (cause of all I said). I expected a constructive discussion, I had with some people was a pleasure to discuss with them, I have nothing more to add to what I have said before. If you're trying to just put words in my mouth, why would I even bother posting here again ? If you don't care about what I say and you're just here for trolling, why would you want me to discuss with you ? If you have an hostile attitude towards me while all I'm doing is telling you my experiences, my point of view reasonably there are no interest for me to continue post in here.

Then it would never matter which class was doing the healing.

That's exactly what I am saying.

Cryptical · November 2016

Shaiba wrote: »

clv wrote: »

the sorc spam heal is also more expensive than bol.

Maybe you didn't take into account sorcerer's passive. I have tested it IG here my results :
High Elf Sorcerer Nude (no armor/accs/weapons), CP into The Magician : 100 :
Matriarch's invocation : 2875
Matriarch's Heal (not the Invocation) : 3664
Thanks to the first passive of Dark Magic
Screenshot :

And if I increase the cost by 5% (supposing we haven't put points into dark magic passives) : 3664x1.05 = 3847.2

Argonian Templar Nude (no armor/accs/weapons), CP into The Magician : 100 :
BoL Heal : 3701
Thanks to the passive in Dawn's Wrath
Screenshot :

And if I increase the cost by 4% (supposing we haven't put point into dawn's wrath passives) : 3701x1.04 = 3849.04

Can anyone explain me how you find Matriarch's Heal more expensive than BoL (with same % cost reduction) ? Did I miss something ?

That's not how you do that math.

Something costs 100. Give a 5% reduction. 95 cost.

To reverse the math you do not take the reduced cost and multiply by 105%, as you did. 95 * 1.05 = 99.75.

99.75 =/= 100

thats because the actual math you did to arrive at the reduced cost was
100 * .95 = 95

So, to reverse that, you divide.
95 / .95 = 100.

And that's not the only problem with your method of comparison. If you were truly looking to make an accurate comparison, you would make them as same as possible. Same race, for one. Zero champ points spent, for another. Reduce the number of things affecting those tooltip numbers to the absolute minimum.

Do that, and then try again.

Shaiba · November 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

Same race, for one. Zero champ points spent, for another. Reduce the number of things affecting those tooltip numbers to the absolute minimum.

I used two races who have no reduc magicka cost of skills. I used the same CP for the reduction of magicka cost. Ty for the math part, I wasn't trully sure about it. To do better test I'll just reset my skills points from passive tools and CP as requested and see what are the results, I'll edit this post then.

EDIT : here the results :
Sorc without passives but with 100 points into Magician (25% reduc cost) :

Sorc without passives, without CP :

Templar without passives but with 100 points into Magician (25% reduc cost) :

Templar without passives, without CP :

We get to the same conclusion : Matriarch's Heal isn't more expensive than BoL, they have the same base cost. But thanks to sorcs passives (which are greater than templar's one), Matriarch's heal will cost you a little less than BoL.

Enslaved · November 2016

Shaiba wrote: »

troll people (Enslaved)[/i]

Why, thank you, kind ser.

For some reason, from my own experience, I never saw anyone not complaining if the designated healer is not at least a templar, not to mention those who go bat crazy if it's not of what they find an appropriate race.

I find those ppl elitists, racist and since they know what they want in their 12 man teams, and jobs get done, who am I to invent hot water and tell them to bring sorc healers instead?

Also, if we talk about normal dungeons, you will find strange animosity toward anything that ain't templar, when it comes down to healing. Pugs tend to scream "WHERE IS BoL", "REPENTENCE, DAMN YOU" and similar things entering the stage of incoherent rage at some point.

From these examples, I would be as free to say that both high end players and relatively new to ESO love to see templar healer in their parties.

This tread, no matter how well explained and filled with some excellent posts is to some point a troll tread, at least in the eyes of the vast amount of ppl in the ESO community.

Also, best of luck, I wish you top scores with your healsorc vTrials groups.

Silver_Strider · November 2016

Here's something to consider.

Stamina builds are kind of tricky to use in Trials due primarily to the risks involved with bringing them into Trials and how those risks affect overall team score. As a result of this, there are plenty of Trial Guilds that prefer a full magic team when doing trials.

So, in a full magic team, do you really need Shards or Repentance?
The answer is a big, fat NO. Sure, the free heal/stamina from Repentance between Trash Pulls is nice but it also isn't outright necessary either and a Master Resto can hold you over just as well for that. Everything else a Templar brings to the table can be replicated in someway or another.

I'm not saying that people should just drop Templars out of Trial Groups but it really has to be considered that maybe, just maybe Templars aren't as required as people are making them out to be.

Cryptical · November 2016

Shaiba wrote: »

But the instant you admitted that there are some content (trials) or circumstances (weak group) where a templar is needed, is the instant you admitted that a templar is better for the healer role.

Quote me saying that. All I said is that in a group to have the full benefit of all classes (the buffs/debuffs of all classes), you will need to have all these classes in your group (logic isn't it ? ). It is as needed as having a sorc for sorc's buff, a DK to have DK's buff and a NB for NB's buff in your trial team. I never talk about a templar healer only templar as a class. You missed that point I think.

EDIT : I just came here to discuss reasonably with people, share our experiences, discuss about our healer's experiences. I have discussed with lot of kind people (who completely disagrees with me, but I liked discussing with them, I hope they'll recognize themselves ...) but I have also seen hostile people (clv who is hostile towards me for no reason, who didn't want to discuss only to taunt me and I don't want to play his little game, I don't think I was agressive toward him so I trully don't understand his overrated reaction), troll post (Enslaved) I give up (cause of all I said). I expected a constructive discussion, I had with some people was a pleasure to discuss with them, I have nothing more to add to what I have said before. If you're trying to just put words in my mouth, why would I even bother posting here again ? If you don't care about what I say and you're just here for trolling, why would you want me to discuss with you ? If you have an hostile attitude towards me while all I'm doing is telling you my experiences, my point of view reasonably there are no interest for me to continue post in here.

Then it would never matter which class was doing the healing.

That's exactly what I am saying.

That's a lot of bold.

Look, I will include your entire paragraph, so it's clearly not taken out of context:

You were talking about a weak group, I assumed you talked about people who aren't experienced including the healer of the team (no I didn't assume weak = idiots, not at all). Like said templar is the easier and obvious choice, that's why maybe some weak group/unexperienced people would prefer it (I tried to not repeat myself, but I think I wasn't clear enough ^^). A strong (= experienced)team (with an experienced healer) doesn't care as soon as the healer is doing his job efficiently.

The reasoning is plain and simple.

A weak group needs a better healer. A weak group needs a templar healer. YOU JUST SAID for a weak group a templar for healing is the easier and obvious choice.

"Easier and obvious choice" - those are your words.

Mitoice · November 2016

Theres no better healer in all of Tamriel than Templars, theres not even a comparison... breath of life is a monster... repentance and shards are a must and ritual is too amazing as it can remove debuffs. They also have a nice emergency healing ultimate which no class has... this healing ult is a monster on pvp.....and resto staff ultimate simply sucks.....

Ive played as a healer sorc and templar, and as a templar i get way far better results without having to work that much... so to me, templar is the better healer without comparison... not to mention the 25 percent increase in healing passive...... my sorc lost his role in healing a long time ago and now only does dps.

VinyParsley2016 · November 2016

if Sorcerer can do everything, why need Templar?

Mitoice · November 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Here's something to consider.

Stamina builds are kind of tricky to use in Trials due primarily to the risks involved with bringing them into Trials and how those risks affect overall team score. As a result of this, there are plenty of Trial Guilds that prefer a full magic team when doing trials.

So, in a full magic team, do you really need Shards or Repentance?
The answer is a big, fat NO. Sure, the free heal/stamina from Repentance between Trash Pulls is nice but it also isn't outright necessary either and a Master Resto can hold you over just as well for that. Everything else a Templar brings to the table can be replicated in someway or another.

I'm not saying that people should just drop Templars out of Trial Groups but it really has to be considered that maybe, just maybe Templars aren't as required as people are making them out to be.

@Silver_Strider

its not just about repentance... BoL can it be replicated as easily?? the 25 percent pasive to healing templar have.. can it be replicated easily?? the ritual which removes debuffs??
the emergency healing ultimate when you get out of magicka?? theres not even a comparison... and thats on top of having all of resto staff skills... sorcs are good healers but they wont ever be as good as templars.. please....

On trial, people want templars as healers more than any other class

Mitoice · November 2016

I still hear the moans and sighs whenever a sorcs joins the group as a healer..... every day

CreepyPahuska · November 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

Shaiba wrote: »

But the instant you admitted that there are some content (trials) or circumstances (weak group) where a templar is needed, is the instant you admitted that a templar is better for the healer role.

Quote me saying that. All I said is that in a group to have the full benefit of all classes (the buffs/debuffs of all classes), you will need to have all these classes in your group (logic isn't it ? ). It is as needed as having a sorc for sorc's buff, a DK to have DK's buff and a NB for NB's buff in your trial team. I never talk about a templar healer only templar as a class. You missed that point I think.

EDIT : I just came here to discuss reasonably with people, share our experiences, discuss about our healer's experiences. I have discussed with lot of kind people (who completely disagrees with me, but I liked discussing with them, I hope they'll recognize themselves ...) but I have also seen hostile people (clv who is hostile towards me for no reason, who didn't want to discuss only to taunt me and I don't want to play his little game, I don't think I was agressive toward him so I trully don't understand his overrated reaction), troll post (Enslaved) I give up (cause of all I said). I expected a constructive discussion, I had with some people was a pleasure to discuss with them, I have nothing more to add to what I have said before. If you're trying to just put words in my mouth, why would I even bother posting here again ? If you don't care about what I say and you're just here for trolling, why would you want me to discuss with you ? If you have an hostile attitude towards me while all I'm doing is telling you my experiences, my point of view reasonably there are no interest for me to continue post in here.

Then it would never matter which class was doing the healing.

That's exactly what I am saying.

That's a lot of bold.

Look, I will include your entire paragraph, so it's clearly not taken out of context:

You were talking about a weak group, I assumed you talked about people who aren't experienced including the healer of the team (no I didn't assume weak = idiots, not at all). Like said templar is the easier and obvious choice, that's why maybe some weak group/unexperienced people would prefer it (I tried to not repeat myself, but I think I wasn't clear enough ^^). A strong (= experienced)team (with an experienced healer) doesn't care as soon as the healer is doing his job efficiently.

The reasoning is plain and simple.

A weak group needs a better healer. A weak group needs a templar healer. YOU JUST SAID for a weak group a templar for healing is the easier and obvious choice.

"Easier and obvious choice" - those are your words.

Easier and obvious are different from best. She never said templar was the best. That's her words :

Shaiba wrote:

I tend to think all classes are differents, providing differents things/support to their team, none is BETTER than an other. Easier =/= Better. Obvious =/= Better.

Is the templar easier to master as a healer ? Yes, certainly. Does that make him the best healer ? Certainly not. At best, it's more accessible to new players looking into healing in ESO because the tools to use are a bit more obvious, although it's worth mentioning that lots of them can induce them in mistake (healing ultimate, lingering ritual, ...), and it's maybe easier to carry mediocre players.

I'm seriously wondering if you trully don't understand this or if you're just trolling...

Mitoice wrote: »

the emergency healing ultimate when you get out of magicka??

@Silver_Strider was talking about trials, so honestly, I don't know what's bugging me the most, the fact that you're using the Healing Ultimate in PvE or that you manage to get out of magicka ? I can't tell, really

clv · November 2016

Clearly every single endgame temp healer is doing it wrong. Sorry guys, pack it up, sorc healers too good

scorpiodog · November 2016

FoolishHuman wrote: »

The problem is that people who play random dungeons look at builds made for organized trial groups, where the best thing to do is give up all your stamina regeneration for those few percent extra damage. And now so many people are totally dependant on shards, even though they could just as well take care of their own regen.
Shards is the one thing other healers can't give, everything else it doesn't matter which class you heal with if you have a good build.
Of course if you get a magicka tank and/or magicka damage dealers, it won't matter at all what class you heal with.

Agreed. Too many lazy / unskilled DPS. I understand for Trials trying to squeeze every last bit of DPS and being highly specialized, but for most Dungeons people really should be more self-sufficient and sustainable, especially in PUGs.

Kyye · November 2016

Is there a new class?? Lel

Silver_Strider · November 2016

Mitoice wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Here's something to consider.

Stamina builds are kind of tricky to use in Trials due primarily to the risks involved with bringing them into Trials and how those risks affect overall team score. As a result of this, there are plenty of Trial Guilds that prefer a full magic team when doing trials.

So, in a full magic team, do you really need Shards or Repentance?
The answer is a big, fat NO. Sure, the free heal/stamina from Repentance between Trash Pulls is nice but it also isn't outright necessary either and a Master Resto can hold you over just as well for that. Everything else a Templar brings to the table can be replicated in someway or another.

I'm not saying that people should just drop Templars out of Trial Groups but it really has to be considered that maybe, just maybe Templars aren't as required as people are making them out to be.

@Silver_Strider

its not just about repentance... BoL can it be replicated as easily?? the 25 percent pasive to healing templar have.. can it be replicated easily?? the ritual which removes debuffs??
the emergency healing ultimate when you get out of magicka?? theres not even a comparison... and thats on top of having all of resto staff skills... sorcs are good healers but they wont ever be as good as templars.. please....

On trial, people want templars as healers more than any other class

1) Sorc Twilight can outheal BoL, so yes it can be replicated.

2) Major Mending is not a Templar exclusive. DKs can get it with Igneous shield and everyone can get it thru Heavy Resto staff attack. Again, replicated

3) Purge can removes Debuffs too. 3rd time, replicated

4) OOM is signs of a bad group or bad Templar. Healers in Trials should be using Warhorn (Or Nova, Veil of Blades, etc. for mitigation when appropriate)

Please try harder.

newtinmpls · November 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

The Twilight will die to most boss mechanics, in Trials.

I don't normally do trials, but my pet sorc (resto on back bar for regen and some heal options; Maw of the Infernal that due to RNGJesus really liking her procs like crazy) was prowling around in Craglon a few times recently and got included in some impromptu (non-vet?) trials.

I was officially a DPS but there were some issues with the healers not being able to keep things going, so I switched to doing more healing, including the twilight matriarch heal (which was working beautifully) I think there were one or two blips where the Matriarch got briefly killed, but she was up for most of it (shielding rocks).

Worked out much better than I would have expected, and I am not by any means a min-maxed healer with this setup. I bet someone more dedicated/practiced/min-maxed would be able to do even better.

Nifty2g · November 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Mitoice wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Here's something to consider.

Stamina builds are kind of tricky to use in Trials due primarily to the risks involved with bringing them into Trials and how those risks affect overall team score. As a result of this, there are plenty of Trial Guilds that prefer a full magic team when doing trials.

So, in a full magic team, do you really need Shards or Repentance?
The answer is a big, fat NO. Sure, the free heal/stamina from Repentance between Trash Pulls is nice but it also isn't outright necessary either and a Master Resto can hold you over just as well for that. Everything else a Templar brings to the table can be replicated in someway or another.

I'm not saying that people should just drop Templars out of Trial Groups but it really has to be considered that maybe, just maybe Templars aren't as required as people are making them out to be.

@Silver_Strider

its not just about repentance... BoL can it be replicated as easily?? the 25 percent pasive to healing templar have.. can it be replicated easily?? the ritual which removes debuffs??
the emergency healing ultimate when you get out of magicka?? theres not even a comparison... and thats on top of having all of resto staff skills... sorcs are good healers but they wont ever be as good as templars.. please....

On trial, people want templars as healers more than any other class

1) Sorc Twilight can outheal BoL, so yes it can be replicated.

2) Major Mending is not a Templar exclusive. DKs can get it with Igneous shield and everyone can get it thru Heavy Resto staff attack. Again, replicated

3) Purge can removes Debuffs too. 3rd time, replicated

4) OOM is signs of a bad group or bad Templar. Healers in Trials should be using Warhorn (Or Nova, Veil of Blades, etc. for mitigation when appropriate)

Please try harder.

Some players really need to test things.

1) No it can't, don't even think your twilight can heal a 50k tick, not going to happen - prove me wrong.

2) Major mending for dragonknights last until shield is destroyed. Again, not as accessible, replicated, sure but is it useful, most likely not.

3) Purge is good I like it, but that is not why people use ritual, ritual provides a long Major Mending and also a strong heal. I use Purge + Ritual as do most Templar healers.

4) What is the point of this one? You listed Nova and Veil of Blades, so where is the Sorcerer's ultimate for this debate?

Silver_Strider · November 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Mitoice wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Here's something to consider.

Stamina builds are kind of tricky to use in Trials due primarily to the risks involved with bringing them into Trials and how those risks affect overall team score. As a result of this, there are plenty of Trial Guilds that prefer a full magic team when doing trials.

So, in a full magic team, do you really need Shards or Repentance?
The answer is a big, fat NO. Sure, the free heal/stamina from Repentance between Trash Pulls is nice but it also isn't outright necessary either and a Master Resto can hold you over just as well for that. Everything else a Templar brings to the table can be replicated in someway or another.

I'm not saying that people should just drop Templars out of Trial Groups but it really has to be considered that maybe, just maybe Templars aren't as required as people are making them out to be.

@Silver_Strider

its not just about repentance... BoL can it be replicated as easily?? the 25 percent pasive to healing templar have.. can it be replicated easily?? the ritual which removes debuffs??
the emergency healing ultimate when you get out of magicka?? theres not even a comparison... and thats on top of having all of resto staff skills... sorcs are good healers but they wont ever be as good as templars.. please....

On trial, people want templars as healers more than any other class

1) Sorc Twilight can outheal BoL, so yes it can be replicated.

2) Major Mending is not a Templar exclusive. DKs can get it with Igneous shield and everyone can get it thru Heavy Resto staff attack. Again, replicated

3) Purge can removes Debuffs too. 3rd time, replicated

4) OOM is signs of a bad group or bad Templar. Healers in Trials should be using Warhorn (Or Nova, Veil of Blades, etc. for mitigation when appropriate)

Please try harder.

Some players really need to test things.

1) No it can't, don't even think your twilight can heal a 50k tick, not going to happen - prove me wrong.

2) Major mending for dragonknights last until shield is destroyed. Again, not as accessible, replicated, sure but is it useful, most likely not.

3) Purge is good I like it, but that is not why people use ritual, ritual provides a long Major Mending and also a strong heal. I use Purge + Ritual as do most Templar healers.

4) What is the point of this one? You listed Nova and Veil of Blades, so where is the Sorcerer's ultimate for this debate?

Wow Nifty. Really disappointed in your reading comprehension skills.

The point of my post (since it was clearly lost to you) was to state that there are ways of replicating BoL, Major Mending and Ritual outside the Templar class.

Sorcs Twilight Heals are powerful, extremely powerful, and can easily reach great heal numbers (Highest I've seen was a Crit of 38k but that just from what I've seen in a passive experience). However, I fail to see the need of EVER needing a 50k heal on anyone as the vast majority of players having far less health than that.

Major Mending, in itself, isn't the most useful buff in the game. Overhealing is done so often, with or without, Major Mending that really the entire debate about how easily accessible it is to Templars is practically moot. Overhealing doesn't make you a better healer, it's just a means of comparing E-peens for healers. It's nice to have but overall, the buff isn't mandatory to have. The point of my post, however, was to show that Templars aren't the only class with access to Major Mending by listing the means that other classes can obtain Major Mending. Not as easy as Templars but I wasn't asked for ease of access, just replication.

I listed Purge as an alternative to Ritual for Non-Templar healers as a means of removing Debuffs, as that was what was asked for.

The final point was posted as the person I quoted stated that they use the Templar Healing Ultimate when OOM, which I feel was a sign that they didn't know what they were talking about as a healer that goes OOM is either in a bad group or has terrible sustain themselves. My original post was aimed for Trial Groups and as such, it is typically Tanks and Healers that use Warhorn so the Templar Heal Ultimate is utterly pointless for them to bring up in that context. I stated Nova and Veil of Blades as useful alternatives in certain situations but just because Negate doesn't provide damage mitigation doesn't mean that it still doesn't have situations in which it would be useful in either. It's still a useful Ultimate that can stun, silence and heal so it's not like it doesn't have its own benefits.

Nifty2g · November 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Mitoice wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Here's something to consider.

Stamina builds are kind of tricky to use in Trials due primarily to the risks involved with bringing them into Trials and how those risks affect overall team score. As a result of this, there are plenty of Trial Guilds that prefer a full magic team when doing trials.

So, in a full magic team, do you really need Shards or Repentance?
The answer is a big, fat NO. Sure, the free heal/stamina from Repentance between Trash Pulls is nice but it also isn't outright necessary either and a Master Resto can hold you over just as well for that. Everything else a Templar brings to the table can be replicated in someway or another.

I'm not saying that people should just drop Templars out of Trial Groups but it really has to be considered that maybe, just maybe Templars aren't as required as people are making them out to be.

@Silver_Strider

its not just about repentance... BoL can it be replicated as easily?? the 25 percent pasive to healing templar have.. can it be replicated easily?? the ritual which removes debuffs??
the emergency healing ultimate when you get out of magicka?? theres not even a comparison... and thats on top of having all of resto staff skills... sorcs are good healers but they wont ever be as good as templars.. please....

On trial, people want templars as healers more than any other class

1) Sorc Twilight can outheal BoL, so yes it can be replicated.

2) Major Mending is not a Templar exclusive. DKs can get it with Igneous shield and everyone can get it thru Heavy Resto staff attack. Again, replicated

3) Purge can removes Debuffs too. 3rd time, replicated

4) OOM is signs of a bad group or bad Templar. Healers in Trials should be using Warhorn (Or Nova, Veil of Blades, etc. for mitigation when appropriate)

Please try harder.

Some players really need to test things.

1) No it can't, don't even think your twilight can heal a 50k tick, not going to happen - prove me wrong.

2) Major mending for dragonknights last until shield is destroyed. Again, not as accessible, replicated, sure but is it useful, most likely not.

3) Purge is good I like it, but that is not why people use ritual, ritual provides a long Major Mending and also a strong heal. I use Purge + Ritual as do most Templar healers.

4) What is the point of this one? You listed Nova and Veil of Blades, so where is the Sorcerer's ultimate for this debate?

Wow Nifty. Really disappointed in your reading comprehension skills.

The point of my post (since it was clearly lost to you) was to state that there are ways of replicating BoL, Major Mending and Ritual outside the Templar class.

Sorcs Twilight Heals are powerful, extremely powerful, and can easily reach great heal numbers (Highest I've seen was a Crit of 38k but that just from what I've seen in a passive experience). However, I fail to see the need of EVER needing a 50k heal on anyone as the vast majority of players having far less health than that.

Major Mending, in itself, isn't the most useful buff in the game. Overhealing is done so often, with or without, Major Mending that really the entire debate about how easily accessible it is to Templars is practically moot. Overhealing doesn't make you a better healer, it's just a means of comparing E-peens for healers. It's nice to have but overall, the buff isn't mandatory to have. The point of my post, however, was to show that Templars aren't the only class with access to Major Mending by listing the means that other classes can obtain Major Mending. Not as easy as Templars but I wasn't asked for ease of access, just replication.

I listed Purge as an alternative to Ritual for Non-Templar healers as a means of removing Debuffs, as that was what was asked for.

The final point was posted as the person I quoted stated that they use the Templar Healing Ultimate when OOM, which I feel was a sign that they didn't know what they were talking about as a healer that goes OOM is either in a bad group or has terrible sustain themselves. My original post was aimed for Trial Groups and as such, it is typically Tanks and Healers that use Warhorn so the Templar Heal Ultimate is utterly pointless for them to bring up in that context. I stated Nova and Veil of Blades as useful alternatives in certain situations but just because Negate doesn't provide damage mitigation doesn't mean that it still doesn't have situations in which it would be useful in either. It's still a useful Ultimate that can stun, silence and heal so it's not like it doesn't have its own benefits.

I don't think you understand damage what so ever in this game or how to effectively heal it, so before anyone keeps going with a lot of misguided nonsense, can I see some videos of sorc healers, preferably yourselves in a veteran trial for bonus points.

Jeremy · November 2016

I usually use Luminous Shards and Repentance on my Templar healer - but mostly just because I find them fun to use. The truth is it's not needed - and you can get by just fine without it doing both normal and veteran content. It isn't the must have skill people make it out to be.

And no - it's not the healer's job to give people back stamina. It is the healer's job to heal.

I see no reason why a sorcerer couldn't heal. But as this thread effectively demonstrates - you are likely to encounter your fair-share of bias if you do. So I would be prepared for that if you try it.

Silver_Strider · November 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Mitoice wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Here's something to consider.

Stamina builds are kind of tricky to use in Trials due primarily to the risks involved with bringing them into Trials and how those risks affect overall team score. As a result of this, there are plenty of Trial Guilds that prefer a full magic team when doing trials.

So, in a full magic team, do you really need Shards or Repentance?
The answer is a big, fat NO. Sure, the free heal/stamina from Repentance between Trash Pulls is nice but it also isn't outright necessary either and a Master Resto can hold you over just as well for that. Everything else a Templar brings to the table can be replicated in someway or another.

I'm not saying that people should just drop Templars out of Trial Groups but it really has to be considered that maybe, just maybe Templars aren't as required as people are making them out to be.

@Silver_Strider

its not just about repentance... BoL can it be replicated as easily?? the 25 percent pasive to healing templar have.. can it be replicated easily?? the ritual which removes debuffs??
the emergency healing ultimate when you get out of magicka?? theres not even a comparison... and thats on top of having all of resto staff skills... sorcs are good healers but they wont ever be as good as templars.. please....

On trial, people want templars as healers more than any other class

1) Sorc Twilight can outheal BoL, so yes it can be replicated.

2) Major Mending is not a Templar exclusive. DKs can get it with Igneous shield and everyone can get it thru Heavy Resto staff attack. Again, replicated

3) Purge can removes Debuffs too. 3rd time, replicated

4) OOM is signs of a bad group or bad Templar. Healers in Trials should be using Warhorn (Or Nova, Veil of Blades, etc. for mitigation when appropriate)

Please try harder.

Some players really need to test things.

1) No it can't, don't even think your twilight can heal a 50k tick, not going to happen - prove me wrong.

2) Major mending for dragonknights last until shield is destroyed. Again, not as accessible, replicated, sure but is it useful, most likely not.

3) Purge is good I like it, but that is not why people use ritual, ritual provides a long Major Mending and also a strong heal. I use Purge + Ritual as do most Templar healers.

4) What is the point of this one? You listed Nova and Veil of Blades, so where is the Sorcerer's ultimate for this debate?

Wow Nifty. Really disappointed in your reading comprehension skills.

The point of my post (since it was clearly lost to you) was to state that there are ways of replicating BoL, Major Mending and Ritual outside the Templar class.

Sorcs Twilight Heals are powerful, extremely powerful, and can easily reach great heal numbers (Highest I've seen was a Crit of 38k but that just from what I've seen in a passive experience). However, I fail to see the need of EVER needing a 50k heal on anyone as the vast majority of players having far less health than that.

Major Mending, in itself, isn't the most useful buff in the game. Overhealing is done so often, with or without, Major Mending that really the entire debate about how easily accessible it is to Templars is practically moot. Overhealing doesn't make you a better healer, it's just a means of comparing E-peens for healers. It's nice to have but overall, the buff isn't mandatory to have. The point of my post, however, was to show that Templars aren't the only class with access to Major Mending by listing the means that other classes can obtain Major Mending. Not as easy as Templars but I wasn't asked for ease of access, just replication.

I listed Purge as an alternative to Ritual for Non-Templar healers as a means of removing Debuffs, as that was what was asked for.

The final point was posted as the person I quoted stated that they use the Templar Healing Ultimate when OOM, which I feel was a sign that they didn't know what they were talking about as a healer that goes OOM is either in a bad group or has terrible sustain themselves. My original post was aimed for Trial Groups and as such, it is typically Tanks and Healers that use Warhorn so the Templar Heal Ultimate is utterly pointless for them to bring up in that context. I stated Nova and Veil of Blades as useful alternatives in certain situations but just because Negate doesn't provide damage mitigation doesn't mean that it still doesn't have situations in which it would be useful in either. It's still a useful Ultimate that can stun, silence and heal so it's not like it doesn't have its own benefits.

I don't think you understand damage what so ever in this game or how to effectively heal it, so before anyone keeps going with a lot of misguided nonsense, can I see some videos of sorc healers, preferably yourselves in a veteran trial for bonus points.

Couple of things

1) I am a terrible Sorcerer Healer. I know it can be done but I am not the person to go and display the capabilities of a Sorcerer Healer. As such, I will not produce a video of myself healing a vet Trial, at least not with my Sorcerer.

2) Even if I did choose to produce a video, I play almost exclusively on PS4 and uploading a video is very tedious because of that alone. Also, you wouldn't get any useful information from that video anyways as there aren't any add-ons for PS4.

3) I will be discontinuing this discussion with you as you have been nothing but disrepectful towards me and any continued discussion will just devolve into childish ranting.

Silver_Strider · November 2016

Do not let people dictate whether or not you can or cannot heal as a Sorcerer. It is possible but difficult.

Gilliamtherogue · November 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

1) Sorc Twilight can outheal BoL, so yes it can be replicated.

2) Major Mending is not a Templar exclusive. DKs can get it with Igneous shield and everyone can get it thru Heavy Resto staff attack. Again, replicated

3) Purge can removes Debuffs too. 3rd time, replicated

4) OOM is signs of a bad group or bad Templar. Healers in Trials should be using Warhorn (Or Nova, Veil of Blades, etc. for mitigation when appropriate)

Please try harder.

@Silver_Strider

For starters, let me just say that sorc healing can be done in non competitive play- to a reasonable level. The issue was never "can X do Y?" but rather, "Is it efficient for X to do Y?" Completion is much different than competition, or even farming if you look at the current state of the game. Why risk wiping in a trial because one out of four or twelve people are trying to "have fun" as we all hear argued so many times? Now if a group doesn't mind dealing with a person(s) who are using inefficient builds to do content, then that's totally valid and this debate loses all meaning. Yet in most instances, I don't think anyone enjoys wiping on pledges or trials, and validating inefficient builds to new players is not a healthy thing for the player or the community on the receiving end.

My first point comes in case, that Replication does NOT equal equivalence. Sure, many of your points show instances of replication, but let's examine these to a further level.

1) You've already agreed further in this thread that Matriarch cannot out heal a Templar's BoL, and tried to play it off as "over healing". This is true to some extent, but it still nullifies your statement. It doesn't stop there though, as BoL requires only ONE bar slot, while the Matriarch consumes TWO (good luck not double barring this and spending 1.4s to summon it every time someone needs reactive healing). Matriarch has one advantage, that it passively grants 2% Spell Power for slotting, which helps increase the healing capability. Still though, it does not share the same Magicka & Spell Damage coefficients that BoL has, which allows BoL to scale much harder with end game stats, allowing for flexibility of stat allocation. This is insanely important, seeing that you'll need to stack % healing or other amplifications to come near the healing powers of BoL due to the bonus healing on low health targets, taking away from other stats such as Magicka Management or Critical strike chance. The Matriarch also does not inherit your Critical Strike Damage modifier, meaning again in end game you will be missing a lot of healing.

TL;DR- Matriarch can come close to BoL, but not without incurring heavy operational losses. A perfect example that replication does not mean they can be equal or compete.

2) Again this instance comes from a standpoint of efficiency. True, any build can get its hands on Major Mending, but how they do so is extremely important. First let's touch on the fact that Major Mending may equate to overhealing on some builds as you've mentioned, and you try to validate this as not an important thing to always have. This comes back to the operational loss vs gain standpoint, as Major Mending allows for stats to be spent elsewhere, since you won't need to stack as much Spell Damage to amplify healing if you have Major Mending. Furthermore, Templars gain Major Mending from doing one of two very vital things; standing in Cleansing Ritual or Rune Focus. Both of these skills play heavily into Templars as they activate further advantages. Cleansing Ritual heals allies, offers a synergy which can be used to purge, heal, and return resources (undaunted). Channeled Focus increases mitigation and resource management, allowing Templars to stay on the offensive or focus on party members instead of themselves. They both also Snare, helping control packs of enemies better.

A sorc must use a Fully Charged heavy attack with a Restoration staff every THREE seconds to retain Major Mending, while Ritual of Retribution lasts 16s (12s base + 4s lingering passive) and Extended Ritual lasts 22s (18s base + 4s lingering). Furthermore, Ritual of Ret has DPS capabilities, and Extended + Ritual both offer steady healing and a synergy to any allies standing in it.

TL;DR- Major Mending can be obtained by a Sorc or other classes, but it comes NO WHERE near close to the efficiency that a Templar boasts. Why heavy attack every 3 seconds (which wastes potential healing, damage, or utility usage) when you can do all of that over 16-22s?

3) I'll give you Purge, as Templar's ally purging capabilities are only tied to a synergy that must be done at the receiver's end and can bug out rather frequently. The Purify synergy also has an ICD of 20 seconds, so it can't be spammed. Yet we have an issue of bar space as well as stat efficiency that we've already brought up. A Templar has more bar space than a Sorc for utility/flex spots because a lot of their abilities do more than one thing, unlike a Sorcerer.

4) No healer should ever run out of Magicka, unless there are specific mechanics to a fight that drain them or a healer dies (sometimes unavoidable in end game content, especially hardmode encounters such as Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj). Yet you raise an interesting point, that healers should be using either Warhorn or damage mitigating ultimates, which if we look at the Sorcerer class, is clearly lacking one. Sure Absorption Field offers amazing healing, but it won't remove most of the harmful PvE mechanics, and it won't prevent one shots that the 30% damage mitigation of Nova would offer.

TL;DR- Why boast that healers should use damage mitigation, when a Sorc healer can't? If you suggest having a DPS slot it instead, then we've immediately entered the realm of extreme operational loss.

Just looking at these four instances (not to mention plenty of other glaring issues with the Sorc class in terms of healing) we've seen extremely heavy operational losses just to gain things to come close to a Templar healer. Seeing these, as well as the mention of not being able to provide Stamina management to the group, it's easy to see that Sorc healing (or any non Templar) cannot even come close to the power of a Templar in terms of healing potential or group utility. It's a damn shame too since this game is in dire need of diversity for end game, but it's a sad truth and spreading misinformation to new players will NOT get it fixed.

xaraan · November 2016

Shaiba wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Good post Shaiba, though you quote me and mention with an optimized team you don't have to worry about not having Templar repentance or shards.

I was talking for vet trials at that moment. In 4 man contents, like I said you won't have any stamina problem without a templar and if DDs have stamina problems (cause new char/builds/not used to play with a non-templar healer) the healer can slot more synergies, Rkugamz and Master Resto Staff. This is more than enough to keep DDs's stamina in 4 man content (I usually play with 2 stamina DDs for 4 man content).

I don't usually give advice based on someone getting to decide what the other three people (or more if trial) will have to play.

About dungeons, I explained it's not about what the other three people will play, it's about how the healer will adapt his gear/skills to his team. For harder 4 man content (thinking of vDSA here, cradle of shadow and mazzatun) you can think a little about your group composition/optimisation. For vet trials you probably will have a templar in your team to slot repentance and probably a magicka one to slot shards, you won't do vTrials without thinking about group composition, it will work for easy one and become very complicated for harder one.

It's kind of like saying you can tank on any class (which you can, and I do) but not recognizing the strengths of a DK for tanking over the other classes.

I disagree here. I usually play with a magicka sorc tank (even for endgame purposes). I have played with lots of good DKs tank and NB tank (I haven't played that often with templar tanks) and I don't think DK is superior than any of the other classes and vice-versa.

DK's advantages are : Recover stamina while blocking by using a skills from Earthen Heart skill tree (it's good to have and it's easier for beginners to manage their ressources on a DK) / Chains : Any DK of your team can slot it (DD, healer), it's a useful skills in 4 man dungeons(in trials I prefer when a DD uses that) but Swarm Mother will do the job for any other class / Good CCs skills / Good ulti gen (when using a Earthen Heart ability) / Igneous Shield : Good support for your team
Sorcerer's advantages are : Recover tons of stamina via Dark Deal (harder to manage, you'll need to know when to use it and when not, when to rupt it and when not) / Low ulti cost / Big shields / Good CCs skills / A 3rd skill bar / Negate (I consider this as one of the best CC skill of the game for PvE purposes) -> I don't know well stamina sorc tank so if anyone want to add anything feel free to do it x)
Nightblade's advantages are : Easy ressources management (thanks to siphoning attacks) / Good selfhealing and grouphealing / Good ulti regen / one of the best DPS for a tank / Veil of blade (good damage mitigation for your team)
I let more experienced templar tank tell us what are the advantages of their class as a tank cause like said I don't know them well, there are high chances I'd tell *** about their abilities as a tank

All classes have a way to manage their ressources, all classes have access to Major ward/major resolve, all classes have a boost to their ultis (it can be reduc cost or more regen), all classes have access to Minor Maim, all classes can debuff bosses (their resistances I'm talking), ...

I won't explain more my point of view here cause It's not the main point of the topic btw sorry

I tend to think all classes are differents, providing differents things/support to their team, none is BETTER than an other. Easier =/= Better. Obvious =/= Better.

Well, I'll go with the concept that all classes can pull off all roles, but there are some classes better at roles than others. I have all four tank roles and DK is, by far, the best. Though, like I said, I'm talking all types of tank play, not just vet trials (which only applies to a very small % of players out there). Sure easier doesn't equal better, and is easier to be decent with a DK, but that's not just what makes it best. In trials, having other classes use things like chains is great, but that's not feasible for 4 man dungeons and we are talking about tanking in the game as a whole, not just one aspect of the game. Stating Swarm Mother is a good substitute means you are using a set in place of a skill, which is two problems - less control with the set proc and you could be running a different set in its place so you are losing the benefit of that alternate set. (Sure, if someone else runs it great, but if you aren't in trials, your DDs should focus more on DD full time IMO). Talons is better than Encase, Igneous is better than almost anything IMO and most of all the passives are amazing, even if you just look at getting your resources back when you use an ulti. And sure, Dark Deal is great, but getting stam back when you use other skills is superior, especially when you have to watch when you use it b/c of it being a channel.

Again, not to say it's not feasible with other classes, and it's fun with each class in different ways. But it's a bit more than just one guys opinion to say that there are certain classes that are BiS for certain roles. And just like weapons and abilities, you can use different ones and still do great, but it doesn't take away from the fact that a different ability, weapon, class, etc. is a smudge better.

Overall it sounds like you just have a lot of experience focusing on Sorc, at least from your comments (sorc being as good as templar in healing, sorc being as good as DK in tanking). I'd be interested in hearing your tank build personally with your sorc.

Sinolai · November 2016

Works great in solo play and can be used in all Dungeons & trials too, although templar is a little more effective due to stamina return abilities which sorcerer doesn't have.

Another thing that sorcerer misses is reliable insta-cast heal. Healing Spring will keep people alive as long as they are standing on them, but if someone takes a lot of damage and you don't have spring up yet, it will take a moment to heal the wounded ally and he/she may die before the heals take effect.
Twilight Madriarch can be used as insta-cast heal but she is unreliable as she tends to die often and is not availiable when you'd need her the most.

Joy_Division · November 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

1) Sorc Twilight can outheal BoL, so yes it can be replicated.

2) Major Mending is not a Templar exclusive. DKs can get it with Igneous shield and everyone can get it thru Heavy Resto staff attack. Again, replicated

3) Purge can removes Debuffs too. 3rd time, replicated

4) OOM is signs of a bad group or bad Templar. Healers in Trials should be using Warhorn (Or Nova, Veil of Blades, etc. for mitigation when appropriate)

Please try harder.

@Silver_Strider

For starters, let me just say that sorc healing can be done in non competitive play- to a reasonable level. The issue was never "can X do Y?" but rather, "Is it efficient for X to do Y?" Completion is much different than competition, or even farming if you look at the current state of the game. Why risk wiping in a trial because one out of four or twelve people are trying to "have fun" as we all hear argued so many times? Now if a group doesn't mind dealing with a person(s) who are using inefficient builds to do content, then that's totally valid and this debate loses all meaning. Yet in most instances, I don't think anyone enjoys wiping on pledges or trials, and validating inefficient builds to new players is not a healthy thing for the player or the community on the receiving end.

My first point comes in case, that Replication does NOT equal equivalence. Sure, many of your points show instances of replication, but let's examine these to a further level.

1) You've already agreed further in this thread that Matriarch cannot out heal a Templar's BoL, and tried to play it off as "over healing". This is true to some extent, but it still nullifies your statement. It doesn't stop there though, as BoL requires only ONE bar slot, while the Matriarch consumes TWO (good luck not double barring this and spending 1.4s to summon it every time someone needs reactive healing). Matriarch has one advantage, that it passively grants 2% Spell Power for slotting, which helps increase the healing capability. Still though, it does not share the same Magicka & Spell Damage coefficients that BoL has, which allows BoL to scale much harder with end game stats, allowing for flexibility of stat allocation. This is insanely important, seeing that you'll need to stack % healing or other amplifications to come near the healing powers of BoL due to the bonus healing on low health targets, taking away from other stats such as Magicka Management or Critical strike chance. The Matriarch also does not inherit your Critical Strike Damage modifier, meaning again in end game you will be missing a lot of healing.

TL;DR- Matriarch can come close to BoL, but not without incurring heavy operational losses. A perfect example that replication does not mean they can be equal or compete.

2) Again this instance comes from a standpoint of efficiency. True, any build can get its hands on Major Mending, but how they do so is extremely important. First let's touch on the fact that Major Mending may equate to overhealing on some builds as you've mentioned, and you try to validate this as not an important thing to always have. This comes back to the operational loss vs gain standpoint, as Major Mending allows for stats to be spent elsewhere, since you won't need to stack as much Spell Damage to amplify healing if you have Major Mending. Furthermore, Templars gain Major Mending from doing one of two very vital things; standing in Cleansing Ritual or Rune Focus. Both of these skills play heavily into Templars as they activate further advantages. Cleansing Ritual heals allies, offers a synergy which can be used to purge, heal, and return resources (undaunted). Channeled Focus increases mitigation and resource management, allowing Templars to stay on the offensive or focus on party members instead of themselves. They both also Snare, helping control packs of enemies better.

A sorc must use a Fully Charged heavy attack with a Restoration staff every THREE seconds to retain Major Mending, while Ritual of Retribution lasts 16s (12s base + 4s lingering passive) and Extended Ritual lasts 22s (18s base + 4s lingering). Furthermore, Ritual of Ret has DPS capabilities, and Extended + Ritual both offer steady healing and a synergy to any allies standing in it.

TL;DR- Major Mending can be obtained by a Sorc or other classes, but it comes NO WHERE near close to the efficiency that a Templar boasts. Why heavy attack every 3 seconds (which wastes potential healing, damage, or utility usage) when you can do all of that over 16-22s?

3) I'll give you Purge, as Templar's ally purging capabilities are only tied to a synergy that must be done at the receiver's end and can bug out rather frequently. The Purify synergy also has an ICD of 20 seconds, so it can't be spammed. Yet we have an issue of bar space as well as stat efficiency that we've already brought up. A Templar has more bar space than a Sorc for utility/flex spots because a lot of their abilities do more than one thing, unlike a Sorcerer.

4) No healer should ever run out of Magicka, unless there are specific mechanics to a fight that drain them or a healer dies (sometimes unavoidable in end game content, especially hardmode encounters such as Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj). Yet you raise an interesting point, that healers should be using either Warhorn or damage mitigating ultimates, which if we look at the Sorcerer class, is clearly lacking one. Sure Absorption Field offers amazing healing, but it won't remove most of the harmful PvE mechanics, and it won't prevent one shots that the 30% damage mitigation of Nova would offer.

TL;DR- Why boast that healers should use damage mitigation, when a Sorc healer can't? If you suggest having a DPS slot it instead, then we've immediately entered the realm of extreme operational loss.

Just looking at these four instances (not to mention plenty of other glaring issues with the Sorc class in terms of healing) we've seen extremely heavy operational losses just to gain things to come close to a Templar healer. Seeing these, as well as the mention of not being able to provide Stamina management to the group, it's easy to see that Sorc healing (or any non Templar) cannot even come close to the power of a Templar in terms of healing potential or group utility. It's a damn shame too since this game is in dire need of diversity for end game, but it's a sad truth and spreading misinformation to new players will NOT get it fixed.

I normally do not like quoting entire posts, but this should be mandatory reading.

I actually want to heal with my sorcerer and I shudder whenever players tell ZoS that sorc healing is just as good as templar healing.

Silver_Strider · December 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

1) Sorc Twilight can outheal BoL, so yes it can be replicated.

2) Major Mending is not a Templar exclusive. DKs can get it with Igneous shield and everyone can get it thru Heavy Resto staff attack. Again, replicated

3) Purge can removes Debuffs too. 3rd time, replicated

4) OOM is signs of a bad group or bad Templar. Healers in Trials should be using Warhorn (Or Nova, Veil of Blades, etc. for mitigation when appropriate)

Please try harder.

@Silver_Strider

For starters, let me just say that sorc healing can be done in non competitive play- to a reasonable level. The issue was never "can X do Y?" but rather, "Is it efficient for X to do Y?" Completion is much different than competition, or even farming if you look at the current state of the game. Why risk wiping in a trial because one out of four or twelve people are trying to "have fun" as we all hear argued so many times? Now if a group doesn't mind dealing with a person(s) who are using inefficient builds to do content, then that's totally valid and this debate loses all meaning. Yet in most instances, I don't think anyone enjoys wiping on pledges or trials, and validating inefficient builds to new players is not a healthy thing for the player or the community on the receiving end.

My first point comes in case, that Replication does NOT equal equivalence. Sure, many of your points show instances of replication, but let's examine these to a further level.

1) You've already agreed further in this thread that Matriarch cannot out heal a Templar's BoL, and tried to play it off as "over healing". This is true to some extent, but it still nullifies your statement. It doesn't stop there though, as BoL requires only ONE bar slot, while the Matriarch consumes TWO (good luck not double barring this and spending 1.4s to summon it every time someone needs reactive healing). Matriarch has one advantage, that it passively grants 2% Spell Power for slotting, which helps increase the healing capability. Still though, it does not share the same Magicka & Spell Damage coefficients that BoL has, which allows BoL to scale much harder with end game stats, allowing for flexibility of stat allocation. This is insanely important, seeing that you'll need to stack % healing or other amplifications to come near the healing powers of BoL due to the bonus healing on low health targets, taking away from other stats such as Magicka Management or Critical strike chance. The Matriarch also does not inherit your Critical Strike Damage modifier, meaning again in end game you will be missing a lot of healing.

TL;DR- Matriarch can come close to BoL, but not without incurring heavy operational losses. A perfect example that replication does not mean they can be equal or compete.

2) Again this instance comes from a standpoint of efficiency. True, any build can get its hands on Major Mending, but how they do so is extremely important. First let's touch on the fact that Major Mending may equate to overhealing on some builds as you've mentioned, and you try to validate this as not an important thing to always have. This comes back to the operational loss vs gain standpoint, as Major Mending allows for stats to be spent elsewhere, since you won't need to stack as much Spell Damage to amplify healing if you have Major Mending. Furthermore, Templars gain Major Mending from doing one of two very vital things; standing in Cleansing Ritual or Rune Focus. Both of these skills play heavily into Templars as they activate further advantages. Cleansing Ritual heals allies, offers a synergy which can be used to purge, heal, and return resources (undaunted). Channeled Focus increases mitigation and resource management, allowing Templars to stay on the offensive or focus on party members instead of themselves. They both also Snare, helping control packs of enemies better.

A sorc must use a Fully Charged heavy attack with a Restoration staff every THREE seconds to retain Major Mending, while Ritual of Retribution lasts 16s (12s base + 4s lingering passive) and Extended Ritual lasts 22s (18s base + 4s lingering). Furthermore, Ritual of Ret has DPS capabilities, and Extended + Ritual both offer steady healing and a synergy to any allies standing in it.

TL;DR- Major Mending can be obtained by a Sorc or other classes, but it comes NO WHERE near close to the efficiency that a Templar boasts. Why heavy attack every 3 seconds (which wastes potential healing, damage, or utility usage) when you can do all of that over 16-22s?

3) I'll give you Purge, as Templar's ally purging capabilities are only tied to a synergy that must be done at the receiver's end and can bug out rather frequently. The Purify synergy also has an ICD of 20 seconds, so it can't be spammed. Yet we have an issue of bar space as well as stat efficiency that we've already brought up. A Templar has more bar space than a Sorc for utility/flex spots because a lot of their abilities do more than one thing, unlike a Sorcerer.

4) No healer should ever run out of Magicka, unless there are specific mechanics to a fight that drain them or a healer dies (sometimes unavoidable in end game content, especially hardmode encounters such as Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj). Yet you raise an interesting point, that healers should be using either Warhorn or damage mitigating ultimates, which if we look at the Sorcerer class, is clearly lacking one. Sure Absorption Field offers amazing healing, but it won't remove most of the harmful PvE mechanics, and it won't prevent one shots that the 30% damage mitigation of Nova would offer.

TL;DR- Why boast that healers should use damage mitigation, when a Sorc healer can't? If you suggest having a DPS slot it instead, then we've immediately entered the realm of extreme operational loss.

Just looking at these four instances (not to mention plenty of other glaring issues with the Sorc class in terms of healing) we've seen extremely heavy operational losses just to gain things to come close to a Templar healer. Seeing these, as well as the mention of not being able to provide Stamina management to the group, it's easy to see that Sorc healing (or any non Templar) cannot even come close to the power of a Templar in terms of healing potential or group utility. It's a damn shame too since this game is in dire need of diversity for end game, but it's a sad truth and spreading misinformation to new players will NOT get it fixed.

Ok, I respect the amount of detail that you put into your post and will not argue over the finer details of it but I want to point out a couple of things.

I never agreed that a Twilight couldn't outheal BoL. I merely stated that I have never seen it happen (Never seen a 50k BoL either, yet I am suppose to believe it is possible.) I stand by my statement that you don't need a 50k instant heal button and that the Twilight is still capable of healing just as well as a BoL, overhealing or not. Also, there are still Templars that double slot BoL to prevent mishaps from occurring so the argument that BoL only takes 1 slot vs the 2 from Twilight is somewhat moot as well. You also failed to mention that having the Twilight slotted increases the Sorcerer's Health, Health regen and Stamina regen and while the latter 2 are of debatable use for a Healer, having more health is very helpful in surviving 1 shot mechanics in Trials, not to mention the Twilight is also contributing to damage (despite how small that damage is).

I wish to clarify my mentioning of Nova and Veil. I mentioned these Ultimates, not as just damage mitigation ultimates but as niche Ultimates to use in place of Warhorn whenever the need should arise that would prove useful to use them instead of Warhorn, mitigation being there niche, just like Standard and Negate would be used for CC niches. Take the 1st boss of vMoL and his adds. A DK or Sorc could use Stardard or Negate as a CC to keep them in place for the team to burn. You can still use Warhorn in that situation too but Standard or Negate would still help out as well. I should reword my original post to clarify this.

DisgracefulMind · December 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I never agreed that a Twilight couldn't outheal BoL. I merely stated that I have never seen it happen (Never seen a 50k BoL either, yet I am suppose to believe it is possible.) .

*drops mic*

Templar master class for healer. Sorry.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · December 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I never agreed that a Twilight couldn't outheal BoL. I merely stated that I have never seen it happen (Never seen a 50k BoL either, yet I am suppose to believe it is possible.) .

*drops mic*

Templar master class for healer. Sorry.

Picks up mic and asks you to show me where in this game do you need a 50k breath? For the record, I hit a 46k healing ward on a tank once, while the tank only had like 35k health on my sorc with only 10% into blessed and my dps gear on.

Now try what ever you used to get that breath with lingering ritual, you would get 70kish easy but does it matter? No heals like over heals I geuss.

Everything that can be said, has been said in this thread, both sides have laid out well thought out arguments and discussion topics. I really enjoyed reading it. But as I have said, the only real things temps bring to the table are shards and repentance. Full stop. Even those can be made up for in a fashion in all but the most extreme cases, IE end game vet trials. Something 95% of the people that play this game will not be doing.

I wanted to thank @Shaiba especially, you have a great way of looking at things and can explain yourself well, I hope I get a chance to play with you one day.