Bad players voting to kick from group in dungeons

anitajoneb17_ESO · November 2016

I don't really get it.

There's a lack of tanks in the game.
People come up with a couple a solutions for it :
1 - DDs queue up as tanks because most pledges are doable with 3xDD and 1x healer. It's a valid solution (even though common courtesy would be to ask first if the group agrees with it)
2 - DDs sort of "half gear" as tanks and actually run as tanks. It's also a valid solution (even though it might not be "perfect", and here, too, things could/should be discussed and agreed with the group beforehand).

Yet people reject these two options ? Well, that's up to them, but then they shouldn't complain about waiting a long time in group finder for a tank. Tanks need love.

iqoologiceb17_ESO · November 2016

code65536 wrote: »

There are only three things I expect from the tank in a Group Finder PUG.
Hold aggro

Position correctly (i.e., don't kite the boss around, out of my ground AoEs)

Don't die

If your non-tank setup means that you're dying too much or that you can't stand your ground and hold the boss steady, then you're not a tank and should be kicked.

Otherwise, as long as you do all three of those things, I couldn't care less how you do it.

A full tank is overkill in any normal dungeon and in some vet dungeons. If non-tank setup means that you can do all three of those things and make a substantial contribution to the group's overall DPS, then that's what you should do. And if anyone kicks you for it, then they're an idiot.

^ this

code65536 · November 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Why are you calling them bad players if you're not even doing the role correctly?

So just got back around to reading everyone's responses. I want to be clear with my initial post, I was holding aggro of all bosses in place. There was no kiting around or anything. We did not wipe at all, so I don't understand the issue. My biggest problem is being called a bad tank by dps who are not doing their own role and are putting out poor dps. And everyone else in the group just goes along with the vote because one player is convinced that he/she knows everything.

You are effectively doing the exact same thing, which is why I said what I did.

You are not doing the role correctly just because you hold taunt, that isn't what tanking is all about, and it's a little ignorant to say so, you are there to hold agro and provide group support and buffs, you are there to provide placement on bosses to help the DD and healers with their roles.

So right now you are half arseing your role, taking short cuts doing it how YOU want to be doing it, but yet you create a thread about this DD effectively doing the same thing you are but as a different role.

Don't you think this is a little hypocritical?

That's exceedingly rigid.

Yes, in a perfect world, the tank does a lot of things--buffing, debuffing, positioning, etc.--all in the name of helping enhance the group DPS. But none of that is useful if the DPS is just light-attacking with a bow, hardcasting frags, or spamming wrecking blow.

Instead of asking if someone sticks rigidly to what a role is supposed to do, you should be asking how much they are contributing to boosting the group's overall DPS. Making sure that debuffs are in place, that War Horns are going out, that adds are pulled into AoEs, etc. will substantially boost the overall DPS... if you're in a good group with players who can capitalize on those things. If you're in a bad group, the best way to boost the group's overall DPS is to do that DPS yourself.

Go and use the Group Finder to PUG a few times, see the kinds of groups you get, and then tell me if it still makes sense to tank like you were in a guild group. I do a random Group Finder each day on my alt account for the CP, and I'll decide after the first trash pull whether I should play as a proper heavy-armor support tank, or if I should play as a light-armor DPS with a taunt on my back bar. And almost always, the latter makes more sense. If I'm doing 70-80% of the total group DPS, why in bloody blazes would it make sense to sacrifice all that to buff the DPS of some guy pulling 2K?

Anyway, context is important here. The OP never said if the dungeon was vet or nonvet. If it's nonvet, it almost never makes sense to have a full tank. If it's vet, the final boss of Crucible does hit pretty hard. And there are some dungeons where tanks have virtually nothing to do (vet Vaults, for example, almost always goes faster with a full DPS instead of a tank, even in a good group).

Dasovaruilos · November 2016

Well, while I do run dungeons without a tank or with an off-tank (more DPS that just holds some aggro), this has to be previously agreed.

Queueing as a tank when you are a DPS is VERY annoying for EVERYBODY else.

If the group is not tight to pull this off, the healer has to basically spam BoL because DPSs keeps getting hit, can't support or DPS himself, and all around can't perform their role. DPSs that can usually do fine need to keep running around because they get hit more than usual, adds are all over the place because there isn't a tank to get them closer.

In the end, because one person wants to "queue faster" by putting a role they don't intend to fulfill, all the others suffer. It is a miserable experience for a healer to run a vet dungeon without a tank if that was not expected.

If you were kicked on the second boss, I'm sure something else was going on.

Just don't queue as a tank if you are a DPS for random groups. Is that simple. Want to run with 3 DPSs? Get a group in chat.

The Kick feature is being abused, but in this case it seems they were right.

Lord Valar · November 2016

When I said that I didn't know a dungeon, it doesn't mean that i'm a totally new player, I have a lot of experiences of multiple strats on other games, I know lots of strats on TESO but yes, since now I mostly played PvP so there is some dungeons that I obviously never did.

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Get friends maybe?

xD Ok I'll try that.
But it's also true that my friends were playing few months ago, and left the game. But I still have 2 good guilds for that.

Jemcrystal · November 2016

I wish kicking was never implemented in mmo's! It was a lot easier to just leave the dungeon when you got grouped with a bad egg. Kicking promotes troll team behavior!!! Nowadays we're FORCED to search for guildies or small group of strangers we don't know from Atom who are nice and only hang with them and them alone meeting no one new just to avoid bs like this. Group kicking ruined mmo's. I left the dungeon heavy mmo's because of this: FFXIV and some f2p'ers I used to love.

When you complain about group kicking you always get "you need to find a nice bunch of people" because I so paid irl money to play with thousands to search endlessly for a tiny few who aren't ***. This is why I love raids. DDO had the BEST DUNGEON RAIDS IN GODS GREEN EARTH. But no one bothered to copy their style anywhere. Instead we went with RIFT's style. Which is awesome but gawd I miss Turbine DDO's raids.

To those who initiate a kick:
Forcing people to play exactly the way you want is WRONG. Even if you are in the right you are being an *** and you have completely missed the reason we get together. It does not make you look competent for perfecting a team. You look like an idiot because you missed the entire reason why mmo's exist. To be together. Even if the others don't play as good as you. You are the ones who need kicked - right out of the gaming community. If you are so damn smart you know exactly how everyone should act then you need to stop playing games and go work a smart job in real life. Go be an air traffic controller or a pharmacist. Some place where your arrogance and high IQ can benefit us all and stop making everyone miserable.

To those who agree with a kicker:
Week willed sops that can't defend your fellow players against trolls. Get a spine.

LadyNalcarya · November 2016

Jemcrystal wrote: »

Forcing people to play exactly the way you want is WRONG.

I hope youll always be grouped with bow healers, 2k dps light attack dds and dd "tanks".

raj72616a · November 2016

I'm on NA PC. i rarely see healer and tank getting kicked, except when you come to vICP with a low cp healer or to similarly difficult content.

i pug and i tanked veteran blessed crucible hard mode with a vampire faux tank in medium armor and no one said a thing about it. it wasnt a no death perfect run. they simply rez me when i did screw up a few time.

and.. i respeced my real tank into faux tank because faux dps are fairly common in pug. they hit less than a tank and pledge run would be sooooo slow if i dont find a way to increase the damage output.

Jeremy · November 2016

code65536 wrote: »

There are only three things I expect from the tank in a Group Finder PUG.
Hold aggro

Position correctly (i.e., don't kite the boss around, out of my ground AoEs)

Don't die

If your non-tank setup means that you're dying too much or that you can't stand your ground and hold the boss steady, then you're not a tank and should be kicked.

Otherwise, as long as you do all three of those things, I couldn't care less how you do it.

A full tank is overkill in any normal dungeon and in some vet dungeons. If non-tank setup means that you can do all three of those things and make a substantial contribution to the group's overall DPS, then that's what you should do. And if anyone kicks you for it, then they're an idiot.

Few things.

Just because the tank is holding agro and not dying - that doesn't always mean he or she is doing their job. There is more to a tank than just to hold agro and not die after all. They are also there to provide defense to the group and to mitigate damage. As a healer - I can tell you first hand there is nothing more annoying to heal than a half-ass tank who takes massive damage. So just because one of these "DD tanks" aren't dying, that may be more of a testament to the healer than anyone else.

Now I haven't played with the OP so I can't say if he was one of these or not. But a lot of people do tend to dismiss the value of having defense in the group. It helps take a lot of the pressure off - especially if you are the healer - which can make it easier to provide support and buffs to the group. That can be difficult to do if I am constantly having to spam heals and keep my magicka up.

raglau · November 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I don't really get it.

There's a lack of tanks in the game.
People come up with a couple a solutions for it :
1 - DDs queue up as tanks because most pledges are doable with 3xDD and 1x healer. It's a valid solution (even though common courtesy would be to ask first if the group agrees with it)
2 - DDs sort of "half gear" as tanks and actually run as tanks. It's also a valid solution (even though it might not be "perfect", and here, too, things could/should be discussed and agreed with the group beforehand).

Yet people reject these two options ? Well, that's up to them, but then they shouldn't complain about waiting a long time in group finder for a tank. Tanks need love.

This is a valid concern. I played DPS my entire time until recently when I rolled a DK tank, because I came back to the game after 8 months off and realised there were still no tanks

However, my build is primarily tank focussed with both taunts slotted, mitigation and debuffs etc, but there's DPS capability available because, as you say, most dungeons are 3 x DPS + healer. In fact, many times I find the DPS is so wanting in a dungeon, that I need to inflict DPS myself to actually get the fights to end in a timely fashion. No one wants to be stuck in a simple dungeon like Banished 1 vet for 40 mins because a DPS keeps reading the hard mode scroll and yet he's only pulling 8k DPS and dies at every one shot. And yes, this has happened very recently, so it's not just fake tanks that abound in ESO...

But I digress, if a character queueing as a tank cannot *at least* retain aggro (I know more is required but we take our chances in PUGs), then he is a fake tank, not a good tank who sees utility in carrying some other useful skills for secondary use, and he should be kicked for the good of the team.

OrphanHelgen · November 2016

If its veteran dungeos, I would understand people want a tank. A tank also debuffs the boss, hold the boss in place better and have access to other buffs as well. But I agree the dd's who dont know what they are doing, shouldnt rage at it either.

Blackfyre20 · November 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Why are you calling them bad players if you're not even doing the role correctly?

So just got back around to reading everyone's responses. I want to be clear with my initial post, I was holding aggro of all bosses in place. There was no kiting around or anything. We did not wipe at all, so I don't understand the issue. My biggest problem is being called a bad tank by dps who are not doing their own role and are putting out poor dps. And everyone else in the group just goes along with the vote because one player is convinced that he/she knows everything.

You are effectively doing the exact same thing, which is why I said what I did.

You are not doing the role correctly just because you hold taunt, that isn't what tanking is all about, and it's a little ignorant to say so, you are there to hold agro and provide group support and buffs, you are there to provide placement on bosses to help the DD and healers with their roles.

So right now you are half arseing your role, taking short cuts doing it how YOU want to be doing it, but yet you create a thread about this DD effectively doing the same thing you are but as a different role.

Don't you think this is a little hypocritical?

So obviously you know more about PVE than I do. I'm sure you have your nice group of friends that you run with all the time who are big time PVEers and are great at their roles. Have you ever used the grouping tool for a dungeon? I often queue as a dps or healer on other characters (which are fully those roles) and you're lucky if you find a tank who holds the boss aggroed and in place. I'm not hopping in queue for the new vet dungeons or trials as a faux tank, I know the extent of my abilities.

My point is that most vet dungeons are easy and can be done without much effort with a faux tank holding the boss aggroed in place for aoe, providing some debuffs, and dealing some damage. I don't appreciate being kicked for not being the best, most pure tank when that's not necessary. I never initiate votes to kick unless the group has wiped multiple times and there is a clear problem, so people who are quick on the trigger and don't give other people a shot are the ones I have a problem with.

Jemcrystal · December 2016

Thank god for good people: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5fp8vw/to_the_pugs_that_i_just_healed_through_coh2/

code65536 · December 2016

Jemcrystal wrote: »

Thank god for good people: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5fp8vw/to_the_pugs_that_i_just_healed_through_coh2/

Ah, that reminds me of a similar incident, which I recounted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3531872/#Comment_3531872

TL;DR: A "tank" with a bow and no taunt wants to kick a lowbie level 10, even though he himself has no understanding of what a tank is supposed to do. The "tank" rage quits when I call him out, I slot a taunt on my off-bar and tank a chunk of the dungeon before we get a replacement level 13 tank who, although inexperienced, at least has a taunt.

Bloody-Goodbyes · December 2016

If I pug a group I already anticipate things going wrong. You can't predict the reactions of others, and while alternative builds for tanking and healing are fun and viable if it were me I would reserve them for friend-only groups.

Dormiglione · December 2016

I not only got kicked, but also called an idiot (all caps on) just because I went on dungeon tours just for fun, aka "any team, any dungeon".

Some players take games much too serious.

I play because I love playing. I am not running after scores and rewards. But maybe with this attitude I'm a sort of white fly ...

CheverTheShrimp · December 2016

I may not be the most top tier healer, but I can say for a fact that fawx tanks are just absolute hell, particularly if they cannot hold their health in battle.
One dungeon run, I had a tank that literally 1 hit KO'd from a boss attack and I hand to constantly spam healing springs just to keep him from dying again, it was very frustrating. I was unable to keep check on the DDs and lost them a lot. I just quit in the end.
Even more frustrating is when the tanks actually ask if anyone in the group even have strats or that we should l2p.

Now when we do get a tank that can fill the roll decently, I am able to save my healing ultis and even switch to DD myself occasionally to aid in killing the bosses faster. I've had countless no death runs just by having a decent tank in the group.

RnB010 · December 2016

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

For the second time this week I have been kicked from a group for "not being a tank." In the latest instance I got kicked after the first two bosses of blessed crucible which we handled fine as a group. Was messaged by a dps who had been using dizzying swing during the fight that i should not queue if i'm not a tank. Couple things, just because I am using a staff to contribute to dps does not mean i cant tank. With sorc shields and inner fire can tank most vet dungeons just fine. I'm just trying to level undaunted and queue is quicker as a tank, and get dungeons done quick by also doing dps (more than one of the dps in our group). So don't kick me because you see i have a staff and immediately blame me for any problems of the group while you are dpsing with dizzying swing.

lol you should have messaged him back "and you shouldnt dd with 2h"

daedalusAI · December 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I don't really get it.

There's a lack of tanks in the game.
People come up with a couple a solutions for it :
1 - DDs queue up as tanks because most pledges are doable with 3xDD and 1x healer. It's a valid solution (even though common courtesy would be to ask first if the group agrees with it)
2 - DDs sort of "half gear" as tanks and actually run as tanks. It's also a valid solution (even though it might not be "perfect", and here, too, things could/should be discussed and agreed with the group beforehand).

Yet people reject these two options ? Well, that's up to them, but then they shouldn't complain about waiting a long time in group finder for a tank. Tanks need love.

You clearly missed an important point: if the tank is no real tank and thus doesn't fulfill his role of holding aggro, proper positioning and buffing/debuffing it's the healer who has to compensate and do his best to keep the group alive when nothing is being taunted, enemies are running around like crazy in the group and the healer himself has constant aggro.

To expand your view on that matter: in your pledge scenario with 3xDD and 1x heal the healer is actually a stamina dps who swapped to a restoration staff and only has grand healing as his only healing spell and offers nothing else for a group and burns through his meager magicka pool quickly within a few spell casts.

Doesn't sound fun having such a healer - right?

So why is it justifiable to have a dps tank?

Aistis1990 · December 2016

Never go into dungeons with noobs. You can be in 5 guilds at the same time. Try to whisper people. Most of the time I had some criticism that im using my own build and not following some , by people that are failing with their characters following some ppls builds. As well we got a very good tank in guild that can tank any Vet dungeons and while we go as a guild we manage just fine. But with randoms he gets kicked cause he has 28k Health (which for some is death sentence)

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

To expand your view on that matter: in your pledge scenario with 3xDD and 1x heal the healer is actually a stamina dps who swapped to a restoration staff and only has grand healing as his only healing spell and offers nothing else for a group and burns through his meager magicka pool quickly within a few spell casts.

Doesn't sound fun having such a healer - right?

So why is it justifiable to have a dps tank?

We do that quite often too when we're out of healers : a mana DPS grabs a resto staff, slots some resto staff abilities and there we go. Sure it won't be as "perfect" as with an experienced, specialized healer, but it works. Just like it works with a stam DD grabbing some tanking stuff if we have no tank.
It even works with both at the same time - 2xDD, 1x "fake-healer" and 1x "fake-tank". Or 3xDDs and 1x "fake healer". Or 3xDD and 1x "fake tanks".
It doesn't work for ALL dungeons but it works for ALL normal dungeons and MOST vet dungeons, even with HM activated. Also, not to forget, it's FUN.

As long as it's not about timer, no death, leaderboards or some specific achievements, but only to complete the dungeon (which PUGs are for), it works.

Completing (most) content in this game is very easy. Playing very well is very hard, but playing "normally" is easy. People should really stop being so picky and judgemental, imho. Given the acute lack of 'true' tanks - and, to a lesser extent, 'true' healers, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

VinyParsley2016 · December 2016

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

For the second time this week I have been kicked from a group for "not being a tank." In the latest instance I got kicked after the first two bosses of blessed crucible which we handled fine as a group. Was messaged by a dps who had been using dizzying swing during the fight that i should not queue if i'm not a tank. Couple things, just because I am using a staff to contribute to dps does not mean i cant tank. With sorc shields and inner fire can tank most vet dungeons just fine. I'm just trying to level undaunted and queue is quicker as a tank, and get dungeons done quick by also doing dps (more than one of the dps in our group). So don't kick me because you see i have a staff and immediately blame me for any problems of the group while you are dpsing with dizzying swing.

You should know you are a fake tank even if you can tank some boss in dungeon. They kicked you was just because they don't want to play with fake tank, no matter if your sorc shields works or not.

I kick the fake tank and healer always even if in the easiest normal dungeon.

SHADOW2KK · December 2016

VinyParsley2016 wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

For the second time this week I have been kicked from a group for "not being a tank." In the latest instance I got kicked after the first two bosses of blessed crucible which we handled fine as a group. Was messaged by a dps who had been using dizzying swing during the fight that i should not queue if i'm not a tank. Couple things, just because I am using a staff to contribute to dps does not mean i cant tank. With sorc shields and inner fire can tank most vet dungeons just fine. I'm just trying to level undaunted and queue is quicker as a tank, and get dungeons done quick by also doing dps (more than one of the dps in our group). So don't kick me because you see i have a staff and immediately blame me for any problems of the group while you are dpsing with dizzying swing.

You should know you are a fake tank even if you can tank some boss in dungeon. They kicked you was just because they don't want to play with fake tank, no matter if your sorc shields works or not.

I kick the fake tank and healer always even if in the easiest normal dungeon.

Lol wut.?

Right cos normals are so hard eh?

No need to kick fake tanks or w/e on normals.

/facepalm

Sleep · December 2016

you can message him back that if his dps is low that he should not queue as a dd

Blackfyre20 · December 2016

VinyParsley2016 wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

For the second time this week I have been kicked from a group for "not being a tank." In the latest instance I got kicked after the first two bosses of blessed crucible which we handled fine as a group. Was messaged by a dps who had been using dizzying swing during the fight that i should not queue if i'm not a tank. Couple things, just because I am using a staff to contribute to dps does not mean i cant tank. With sorc shields and inner fire can tank most vet dungeons just fine. I'm just trying to level undaunted and queue is quicker as a tank, and get dungeons done quick by also doing dps (more than one of the dps in our group). So don't kick me because you see i have a staff and immediately blame me for any problems of the group while you are dpsing with dizzying swing.

You should know you are a fake tank even if you can tank some boss in dungeon. They kicked you was just because they don't want to play with fake tank, no matter if your sorc shields works or not.

I kick the fake tank and healer always even if in the easiest normal dungeon.

That's idiotic... this post is about exactly this kind of player

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

I kick the fake tank and healer always even if in the easiest normal dungeon.

That's idiotic... this post is about exactly this kind of player

Yep. And also the reason why "real" tanks don't PUG. They don't need to risk stumbling upon such self-entitled non-tanks. These groups will probably end up with no tank at all.

Riejael · December 2016

Jemcrystal wrote: »

I wish kicking was never implemented in mmo's! It was a lot easier to just leave the dungeon when you got grouped with a bad egg. Kicking promotes troll team behavior!!! Nowadays we're FORCED to search for guildies or small group of strangers we don't know from Atom who are nice and only hang with them and them alone meeting no one new just to avoid bs like this. Group kicking ruined mmo's. I left the dungeon heavy mmo's because of this: FFXIV and some f2p'ers I used to love.

Its Ironic you brought up Final Fantasy XIV. As I've played FFXIV before it had a vote to kick feature. It was a horrible group experience.

You had crappy tanks who wouldn't hold agro and then when you called them out for it. They'd sit down in front of the dungeon refused to do anything. Putting DPS who had up to 40 minute wait times back into the queue. Sometimes DPS would do this and just get carried by a tank/healer. I'm sure some healers did this as well (I usually played a WHM so never had to deal with bad healers).

When vote to kick was put into FFXIV, the experience was much better. No longer did we have crappy tanks hurting DPS. Or people sitting around waiting to be carried.

I usually run with a buddy or two. So we usually make a majority in the group. We're not kick heavy like some groups can be. We will work with 'bad' players. IF and only IF they are willing to learn. Those that get defensive or gripey about being corrected will get booted. Those that ignore us will be booted. I'm not here to coddle players like their parents, teachers, and governments do. I'm not a charity.

I will help new players, I won't boot players trying to learn. Those players are treasured. They usually turn out pretty good. But everyone knows when someone is rotten. No one should be FORCED to deal with rotten players. Boot them, send them back to the queue, and let them learn the hard way.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

Sleep wrote: »

you can message him back that if his dps is low that he should not queue as a dd

Nice one... but the point of gaming is to have fun, not to exchange hate whispers, so... :-(

Cellentel · December 2016

Normal dungeons are normally doable without a fake-tank, but if you go that route at least make sure you're a decent dps.

A few weeks ago I queued for random normal on my well-geared healer and got Wayrest II. The "tank" was a magicka nightblade whose "rotation" was:
* Aggro every enemy in the room
* Resto heavy attack
* Occasionally, cast healing ward even though everyone was at full health (and I, as the healer, was healing)

Meanwhile, both DPS were the classic light attack spamming bow users.

I kept everyone alive easily enough but the DPS was virtually nonexistent and it became tough to keep everyone alive while also putting out enough DPS myself that we could make progress in anything resembling a reasonable time.

After the "tank" aggrod everyone in the room with the (normally ridiculously easy) wraith miniboss, I pointed out to the tank that he wasn't tanking at all. He responded "Bah, it's normal. We don't need a tank. U MAD BRO?". I then dropped group because this wasn't worth my time.

Moral: yes, normal dungeons can be done very easily without a tank. They can also be done easily enough with one or two not-very-good players in the group. But if you queue as a tank when you're really a dps, you better make sure your dps is good enough to get through the dungeon when the rest of the group is not good. Otherwise, you're just an rude jerk.