Guild Traders, a thoroughly miserable experience

disintegr8 · November 2016

I have difficulty even finding a reliable trading guild on PS4 NA, most of the guilds I have been in have a trader one week and then none for a few weeks or never get one again. Even internal sales between guild members have dried up.

Having said that, I do not think there is anything wrong with the current model. Nobody is forced to sell anything and nobody is forced to buy anything, so using a trading guild is purely a matter of choice.

If I have something to sell, I got it from somewhere, which means that you can also go and get it yourself instead of trying to buy it and complaining about the costs. You also do not need to sell things in guilds to make money, simply questing, dungeoning, farming and selling to NPC's can make you gold - albeit a little slower.

PS. if anyone has a reliable trading guild on PS4 NA with a vacancy, I'd appreciate an invite. PSN - disintegr8.

Stopnaggin · November 2016

odysseus33 wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

You get an F in math for today. 120m/20k=6000. Your theory is great with a finite supply. You have thousands of players resupply in the market each day. Price fixing only works when you control the supply as well. Know why gas prices arent $50 a gallon, because the supply isn't controlled.

Yeah realized that mistake after posting. Doesn't change the fact. That infinite supply is fine but people can still corner the market. We are not talking about economics here, where the price is driven by me factors than supply and demand. That's a different topic all together. And by the way supply is controlled, so as not to devalue the price of oil, again another subject.

We are talking about ah vs gt. The theory still stands. Real world economics also have other

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

Resources are not finite, and trying to corner the market on an ever replenishing item is like trying to hold sand in your fist.

If I am harvesting and supplying the market with alloys at 20k, I don't care if anyone buys them up and tries to resell them at a higher price. If someone snipes them off the market at the 20k that I'm listing it, then I win. I sold it fast and I sold it at the price I asked.

There is NOTHING on the market that cannot be obtained personally.

I agree with the selling price but it doesn't change the fact that being able to corner the market with an AH is easier than it is with a guild trader. And I have stated before, if you don't want to farm for yourself than pay the price. In my above example 6 million alloys could be taken off the market easier than they can now.

So you sell your alloys for 20k great for you, but not for the others that are complain about guild prices, so if we could stay on topic, that would be great.

My point was perfectly on topic. If the price is too high, you can farm your own and not rely on inflated AH prices. You simply can't corner the market if the product can be produced by the individual.

You are paying simply for the convenience of not producing your own product.

To try and corner that type of a market is an insane gamble. There will be a breaking point where all those alloys that you bought and listed for 10x the price simply will not sell.

And how is that harder to control with an auction house? I can now have a one stop shop to buy all the gold mats. Finite supply yes for those willing to put in the work. I farm so it really doesn't have any effect on me. I sell when people want to buy I set my price. Insane gamble or not, people will do it. As opposed to real world economics where there are laws and regulations. I'm really not sure what your arguing for? I don't want an AH, it's too easy to abuse compared to the current system. So what exactly is your stance on the subject?

xaraan · November 2016

I like the guild trader system myself, though I think it would benefit from a little tweaking. I definitely don't like the counter argument idea of an overall auction house.

And if you don't get enough to sell to pay guild fees then two things: 1) you should probably be in a smaller trading guild that isn't trying to keep a spot in the best location that costs millions of gold each week or 2) try selling in zone, tons of people still make good money that way.

Bouldercleave · November 2016

Stopnaggin wrote: »

odysseus33 wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

You get an F in math for today. 120m/20k=6000. Your theory is great with a finite supply. You have thousands of players resupply in the market each day. Price fixing only works when you control the supply as well. Know why gas prices arent $50 a gallon, because the supply isn't controlled.

Yeah realized that mistake after posting. Doesn't change the fact. That infinite supply is fine but people can still corner the market. We are not talking about economics here, where the price is driven by me factors than supply and demand. That's a different topic all together. And by the way supply is controlled, so as not to devalue the price of oil, again another subject.

We are talking about ah vs gt. The theory still stands. Real world economics also have other

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

Resources are not finite, and trying to corner the market on an ever replenishing item is like trying to hold sand in your fist.

If I am harvesting and supplying the market with alloys at 20k, I don't care if anyone buys them up and tries to resell them at a higher price. If someone snipes them off the market at the 20k that I'm listing it, then I win. I sold it fast and I sold it at the price I asked.

There is NOTHING on the market that cannot be obtained personally.

I agree with the selling price but it doesn't change the fact that being able to corner the market with an AH is easier than it is with a guild trader. And I have stated before, if you don't want to farm for yourself than pay the price. In my above example 6 million alloys could be taken off the market easier than they can now.

So you sell your alloys for 20k great for you, but not for the others that are complain about guild prices, so if we could stay on topic, that would be great.

My point was perfectly on topic. If the price is too high, you can farm your own and not rely on inflated AH prices. You simply can't corner the market if the product can be produced by the individual.

You are paying simply for the convenience of not producing your own product.

To try and corner that type of a market is an insane gamble. There will be a breaking point where all those alloys that you bought and listed for 10x the price simply will not sell.

And how is that harder to control with an auction house? I can now have a one stop shop to buy all the gold mats. Finite supply yes for those willing to put in the work. I farm so it really doesn't have any effect on me. I sell when people want to buy I set my price. Insane gamble or not, people will do it. As opposed to real world economics where there are laws and regulations. I'm really not sure what your arguing for? I don't want an AH, it's too easy to abuse compared to the current system. So what exactly is your stance on the subject?

I'm pro AH or at the very LEAST pro universal search feature so you can find items. Our current system is a pain in the ass for buyers and sellers.

*Guilds are limited to 500 members - finding a good and established guild can be a pain

*Prime locations are limited and far too expensive to maintain a kiosk for most guilds 0 especially smaller ones.

*Some kiosk locations are SO far out of the loop that I actually feel sorry for the vendor.

*People are FORCED to spam zone chat to sell items if they cannot get into a viable trade guild.

odysseus33 · November 2016

People are acting like the prices in an auction house are soooooo much different than traders. Hundreds of games have central auction houses. Do a few players con troll them? Of course not. Even if you were able to buy up every single lower priced auction, which is totally not feasible, you couldn't set some outrageous price since everyone can get the items themselves. People will be like we'll why would I spend 100k which takes hours of farming earn to buy that when I can go farm ore and get that temper in 20 minutes. The tempers won't sell reliably and either the funds go dry and they unable to secure the supply or the prices come down to more reasonable levels.

TerraDewBerry · November 2016

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Ahnastashia wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

collettd101 wrote: »

Been playing ESO for quite a while now and am still enjoying the game. One thing that I don't at all enjoy in any way is the guild trader system. It sucks having to go all over the world checking traders in every city trying to find a particular item. It also sucks that as a casual player, that the fees guilds have to charge to fund their trader exceeds what you can make selling items. That is unless your one of those players that has a minifridge next to the desk and a toilet for a computer chair who farm extremely rare items and sell them for huge prices. It also sucks that most guilds end up burning out trying to keep their trader and give up. Then you have to leave them and find a new trader guild. After about 10 iterations, this is very annoying. Really, this is one feature in the game that is all con and no pro. If you want a money sink in the game, hurry up and put in player housing.

Maybe for you, there are some really good trade guilds who do not charge weeklies, try finding them.

And making profits without being a hardcore trader is easy.

Plenty of guides out there for making gold if you cannot figure them out by yourself.

Making the first million can be problematic, after that, they just roll in.

In the time it took for you to type that, you could have sourced a guide or two.

Just saying.

Can you name one really good trading guild that does not charge a weekly fee or doesn't have a you must sell X amount weekly requirement to stay in it? Simply put, many people do not like the guild trader store system at all.

I wonder just how long the guild trader store system would last if ZOS offered both systems where people could opt to sell and shop at the universal auction house and/or participate in their trading guilds so they could have such a great time running all over Tamriel trying to find a good price for whatever they want to buy or trying to gage the price they should try and sell things for.

Basically the universal auction house would win in the end as more and more people dropped their trading guilds who have X requirements to be in the guild, and would opted to just buy and sell at the universal auction house because it would offer better competition in one convenient place. It's not rocket science.

Actually it would do the opposite as far as competition. Now you have 3 or 4 people controlling the market, and guess what? They wouldn't have to put in any effort to do so. 3 or 4 rich people could buy all the tempers, kutas, wax or whatever, but now instead of having to travel to do that, it would all be in one place.

Seriously I don't understand why people think there is some evil entity controlling guild traders. I have 3 steady trading guilds the charge 5k per week. I make 50 times that much just listing stuff I don't need. This need to have everything at your fingertips takes away from the grind that are MMO'S. All the trading guilds I'm in also host contests and raffles which comes from guild dues. Don't wanna pay, fine there are free guilds out there, but they won't be in a high traffic spot.

Maybe we're going to need to agree to disagree. I believe there would be so much traffic in a central auction house that it would be difficult for one person or even 3-4 people, to control the entire market. And as I said earlier, what makes you think that doesn't already happen now? If the only concern about a central auction house is a few people cornering the market, then have ZOS utilize internal data to see if there are people who consistently appear to be trying to monopolize the market. If they are, and they have been warned about it.. next offense, I would ban them for a few days. They keep doing it.. they would be out of the game.

Skinless_Jerk · November 2016

would a world broker be so bad, so hard to implement? because it would improve the current mess to no end. Please join our trade guild .. now that you're here you will pay me this amount or you'll be kicked. ! person in particular reminds me of this - the first person to run arcane syndicate on ps4 eu - no names but we'll all familiar with the clown - paid him upfront for my 2 mates and myself for 1 month (15k gold) - 1 hour later i was removed from guild (albeit on accident) every item i listed needed to be re-listed (yawnnnn), i CBA for that so i just asked for the 15k back and was told no because it had been used to improve the guild hahaha. needless to say the joker is no longer running the guild but i always guffaw in his face regularly...

smacx250 · November 2016

odysseus33 wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

odysseus33 wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

You get an F in math for today. 120m/20k=6000. Your theory is great with a finite supply. You have thousands of players resupply in the market each day. Price fixing only works when you control the supply as well. Know why gas prices arent $50 a gallon, because the supply isn't controlled.

Bad example:

What 3 Factors Do Traders Use To Set Oil Prices?
There are three main factors that commodities traders look at when developing the bids that create oil prices.

First, is current supply in terms of output. This has historically been controlled by OPEC quotas.

And why have the prices been consistently dropping this year? Because they want less money? Nope it's because supply control. If the world's only supply of oil was opec you could be damned sure they'd be charging whatever they want.

But stupid oil arguements aside, you cannot corner the market on anything that you do not control the supply of. You buy 6000 tempers and lit them for 40k, tons of sellers will go, we'll I want to sell fast for 35k, people will see that and go well we want to buy at 30k. People will sell to the 30k people to sAve time, and the market will eventually balance out as it always does.

OPEC has reportedly decided to let prices fall so low in part to edge US oil shale companies (which have expensive debt) into failure - OPEC's break even price is about half that of oil shale's. They'll take the near-term reduced price in order to eliminate longer term competition. If you look at the news on oil shale companies this year, it appears to have been working.

Axoinus · November 2016

I just want to say that this is the absolute worst 'market' system I have ever seen.

1) It is not user friendly.
2) It is certainly not new-user friendy.
3) It is not an open market
4) The laws of supply and demand are totally broken.
5) The intent(power)and concept of fair market and fair market value are severly hindered.
6) This system makes the 'value' of gold unknown at best, corruptive at worst.
7) Minimizes participation.i.e. Not a global economy.

I could go on and on about how bad this economic model is. Point being,for me, absolute worst part of this game.

Jemcrystal · November 2016

TESO's guild traders are not the worse market. The worst is one completely controlled by old VIP elitest players who joined at launch and a million or so RMTs. Or the system where you earn about ten different forms of currency in attempt to confuse RMT trade. TESO's guild trader system does make you want to cry scream and pull your hair out at times. But it is not the worse.

AzuraKin · November 2016

Tandor wrote: »

One of the biggest problems from a selling point of view so far as the present guild trader system is concerned - and it's highlighted in a number of posts here defending the system - is that it is entirely geared to high level play, not to mention hardcore farming. However, there are players at all levels of the game, some of them casual, who just want to be able to sell a duplicate motif or stack of mats without having to choose between commitment to a trading guild or giving up an adventuring session in order to spam zone chat. I suspect that in practice most just sell such stuff to NPC merchants for a pittance rather than endure the hassle of doing otherwise.

One way round this without having to ditch the whole system and adopt an auction house or other alternative would be to have a single guild trader in one city location per zone where non-guilded players could list a very small number of items (in total, not per zone) at a high commission rate, all commission to be shared between the guilds trading in that location. Then again, perhaps in future players could list just a few items for sale at their house.

It simply shouldn't be necessary for such a basic core part of any MMO to be hidden behind artificial barriers like guild membership.

As for buying, well that has been pretty universally agreed to be severely hampered by the lack of a proper search function resulting in players having to travel all over the world looking for the one item they want (and then carrying on searching if they want to see if it's cheaper elsewhere). Guild trader locations have become easier to reach with One Tamriel, but again that only works for experienced high-level players who know where every trader is and how to reach them. The system just doesn't cater for the inexperienced lower-level players who just want to buy or sell the odd item or two.

The system also doesn't work for anyone who doesn't want to use addons or who can't use them because of their platform, as it's again pretty universally agreed that addons are essential for anyone intending to make effective use of the guild trader system.

The system does need some changes, but it doesn't need to be dumped in favour of an auction house or other alternative, there are simple ways of refining it so that everyone has reasonable access to buying and selling in the game without artificial barriers or restrictions being placed in their way. Such refinements don't need to spoil anything for the trading guilds, but would open up trading to more players which in turn would benefit the trading guilds in the long term as players leveled through the game and outgrew the non-guild traders with a view to joining trading guilds rather than carrying on selling to NPC merchants as they do at present.

actually it makes a lot of sense, it promotes guild unity with guild members and promotes guild competition.

AzuraKin · November 2016

Narvuntien wrote: »

How I joined my guild .. someone spammed on zone chat and... i just felt like it that day.

I found out later that they had failed to have a public guild trader and all I was selling to was my guildmates.

I have had all this gear and maps and mats I wasn't using that was filling up my bank and inventory and I thought someone else might want them but I didn't want to just give them away I mean I won them right...

But I started playing this game 6 weeks ago, I literially have no idea what anything is worth..and I have no idea if anyone will ever want this below cp160 random blue and purple gear... but if I want to 'sell' them I have to know.. so I.. almost randomly choose a price, vaugely based on things that look similar in my guilds store. some of the mats you can get a good idea but most of the gear is random.

In the end I have basically found a way to juggle a bunch of stuff out of my inventory and bank into a guild store for a month where they will never sell. I just realised its a great way to save space.. in a way. I wonder if I should recall and lower thier price to another randomly chosen number.

I, a new player, needs help working out how to use guild traders. I have friends who have played for longer than me that have no idea how to use these things, they didn't know you could buy things from the public stores they thought you had to be a member of the guild to use them.. they have played for years... it is dark and shadowing and confusing.

But for now I am still leaning towards Tandor there is a million ways to improve the system before deciding it is terrible and giving up on it. I does have flavour and it does give life to guilds.

(I have also joined a PVP guild but they don't have anything for sale in thier store)

it used to be you only could buy from your guild's stores, basically it sounds like your friends never read patch notes, or ever visit a town in pve.

AzuraKin · November 2016

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

Constantly catering to casuals dumbs a game down and makes it boring. ESO has done enough of that recently.

Catering to causals is what keeps most modern high budget games afloat nowadays. Without those causals I highly doubt ESO would have much legs left or would have probably died awhile ago.

in my experience, its when games cater to the casuals and unintelligent, unskilled players that the hard core gamers leave.

Jamini · November 2016

I feel kind of bad for anyone that can't sell 10k worth of stuff in a week. That's literally two desirable BoE green armors, a single gold temper (+1k or so), a single perfect roe, a handful of cheap motif pages, 5 BoE jewelry pieces, half a stack of rubidite ore, 20 intricate items, or 1.3 stacks of soul gems. Finding enough stuff to make back a trading requirement takes one-two hours at most, and can be done while doing pretty much anything else in the game.

Most new players don't have much worth selling on the open market. That's really the fact of the matter. Until you hit 160 you just don't have much that is desirable for the vast majority of the players in the game to buy (Alchemy mats and roe come to mind), and you don't really have the expenses that someone who is gilding their gear/running vet dungeons/trials has to do more difficult conent.

I might be against guild traders if they were in any way difficult to participate in... but it just isn't hard to get into a trading guild. I know my own (NEON Grind trading inc) is actively recruiting to help pay for our trader (Raz, in Mournhold. A high-traffic, high-volume area and quite expensive) and I see recruitment shouts for other guilds on NA/PC for trade guilds with moderate-high traffic traders daily as well. Hell, I had to turn down a trading guild invite some of my PvP sent me to because I don't want to sell in multiple trade guilds.

In weeks where we are having trouble keeping Raz (Again, lots of competition for him. He's a capital trader in a very accessible spot) I've even spotted 5k in cash. 5k is really peanuts in PC/NA, and this is coming from a player who is relatively dirt poor.

Stopnaggin · November 2016

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

odysseus33 wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

You get an F in math for today. 120m/20k=6000. Your theory is great with a finite supply. You have thousands of players resupply in the market each day. Price fixing only works when you control the supply as well. Know why gas prices arent $50 a gallon, because the supply isn't controlled.

Yeah realized that mistake after posting. Doesn't change the fact. That infinite supply is fine but people can still corner the market. We are not talking about economics here, where the price is driven by me factors than supply and demand. That's a different topic all together. And by the way supply is controlled, so as not to devalue the price of oil, again another subject.

We are talking about ah vs gt. The theory still stands. Real world economics also have other

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

Resources are not finite, and trying to corner the market on an ever replenishing item is like trying to hold sand in your fist.

If I am harvesting and supplying the market with alloys at 20k, I don't care if anyone buys them up and tries to resell them at a higher price. If someone snipes them off the market at the 20k that I'm listing it, then I win. I sold it fast and I sold it at the price I asked.

There is NOTHING on the market that cannot be obtained personally.

I agree with the selling price but it doesn't change the fact that being able to corner the market with an AH is easier than it is with a guild trader. And I have stated before, if you don't want to farm for yourself than pay the price. In my above example 6 million alloys could be taken off the market easier than they can now.

So you sell your alloys for 20k great for you, but not for the others that are complain about guild prices, so if we could stay on topic, that would be great.

My point was perfectly on topic. If the price is too high, you can farm your own and not rely on inflated AH prices. You simply can't corner the market if the product can be produced by the individual.

You are paying simply for the convenience of not producing your own product.

To try and corner that type of a market is an insane gamble. There will be a breaking point where all those alloys that you bought and listed for 10x the price simply will not sell.

And how is that harder to control with an auction house? I can now have a one stop shop to buy all the gold mats. Finite supply yes for those willing to put in the work. I farm so it really doesn't have any effect on me. I sell when people want to buy I set my price. Insane gamble or not, people will do it. As opposed to real world economics where there are laws and regulations. I'm really not sure what your arguing for? I don't want an AH, it's too easy to abuse compared to the current system. So what exactly is your stance on the subject?

I'm pro AH or at the very LEAST pro universal search feature so you can find items. Our current system is a pain in the ass for buyers and sellers.

*Guilds are limited to 500 members - finding a good and established guild can be a pain

*Prime locations are limited and far too expensive to maintain a kiosk for most guilds 0 especially smaller ones.

*Some kiosk locations are SO far out of the loop that I actually feel sorry for the vendor.

*People are FORCED to spam zone chat to sell items if they cannot get into a viable trade guild.

Now this I agree, a search function of some sort would be welcome, I agree the current system needs work.

Guild traders being out of the loop, ah. They are not in the main spots but still acess able as the show up on the map.

Spamming zone chat isn't going away anytime soon. Even with a serch function, some people are just too lazy.

I had proposed in another thread that they take the wandering merchants and let players use them as a consignment store. This would give some of the people to sell their wares without the need of a guild trader. Of course they would be limited to that area but the would at least be able to be in a higher traffic area.

Stopnaggin · November 2016

Ahnastashia wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Ahnastashia wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

collettd101 wrote: »

Been playing ESO for quite a while now and am still enjoying the game. One thing that I don't at all enjoy in any way is the guild trader system. It sucks having to go all over the world checking traders in every city trying to find a particular item. It also sucks that as a casual player, that the fees guilds have to charge to fund their trader exceeds what you can make selling items. That is unless your one of those players that has a minifridge next to the desk and a toilet for a computer chair who farm extremely rare items and sell them for huge prices. It also sucks that most guilds end up burning out trying to keep their trader and give up. Then you have to leave them and find a new trader guild. After about 10 iterations, this is very annoying. Really, this is one feature in the game that is all con and no pro. If you want a money sink in the game, hurry up and put in player housing.

Maybe for you, there are some really good trade guilds who do not charge weeklies, try finding them.

And making profits without being a hardcore trader is easy.

Plenty of guides out there for making gold if you cannot figure them out by yourself.

Making the first million can be problematic, after that, they just roll in.

In the time it took for you to type that, you could have sourced a guide or two.

Just saying.

Can you name one really good trading guild that does not charge a weekly fee or doesn't have a you must sell X amount weekly requirement to stay in it? Simply put, many people do not like the guild trader store system at all.

I wonder just how long the guild trader store system would last if ZOS offered both systems where people could opt to sell and shop at the universal auction house and/or participate in their trading guilds so they could have such a great time running all over Tamriel trying to find a good price for whatever they want to buy or trying to gage the price they should try and sell things for.

Basically the universal auction house would win in the end as more and more people dropped their trading guilds who have X requirements to be in the guild, and would opted to just buy and sell at the universal auction house because it would offer better competition in one convenient place. It's not rocket science.

Actually it would do the opposite as far as competition. Now you have 3 or 4 people controlling the market, and guess what? They wouldn't have to put in any effort to do so. 3 or 4 rich people could buy all the tempers, kutas, wax or whatever, but now instead of having to travel to do that, it would all be in one place.

Seriously I don't understand why people think there is some evil entity controlling guild traders. I have 3 steady trading guilds the charge 5k per week. I make 50 times that much just listing stuff I don't need. This need to have everything at your fingertips takes away from the grind that are MMO'S. All the trading guilds I'm in also host contests and raffles which comes from guild dues. Don't wanna pay, fine there are free guilds out there, but they won't be in a high traffic spot.

Maybe we're going to need to agree to disagree. I believe there would be so much traffic in a central auction house that it would be difficult for one person or even 3-4 people, to control the entire market. And as I said earlier, what makes you think that doesn't already happen now? If the only concern about a central auction house is a few people cornering the market, then have ZOS utilize internal data to see if there are people who consistently appear to be trying to monopolize the market. If they are, and they have been warned about it.. next offense, I would ban them for a few days. They keep doing it.. they would be out of the game.

That would assume there is teamwork between all guilds. I can tell you, while that may be the case for a few it's not as wide spread as everyone seems to think. The guilds I'm in usually just look at prices in the area they are located and list their wares accordingly. The guild masters do not set the prices, I set my price. I alone go in and adjust my price during the listing process.

If you think people are trying to monopolize in the current system, what would make you think an AH would be different?

Thank you for keeping it civil as that is rare anymore in these forums.

Elsonso · November 2016

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Spamming zone chat isn't going away anytime soon. Even with a serch function, some people are just too lazy.

I have people in my trading guild, with kiosk, that spam Guild Chat with WTS announcements. Sometimes, a person has more than 30 things to sell. As long as there is some form of player-to-player communication, this will happen.

Stopnaggin · November 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Spamming zone chat isn't going away anytime soon. Even with a serch function, some people are just too lazy.

I have people in my trading guild, with kiosk, that spam Guild Chat with WTS announcements. Sometimes, a person has more than 30 things to sell. As long as there is some form of player-to-player communication, this will happen.

Don't we all. If I list anything through zone chat it's at most 2 items, and then I wait 45 minutes before listing again.

DreadKnight · November 2016

Have not read the four pages of Post's but I for one (console) think that the search function needs to be upgraded.

I don't mind having to visit different areas of the map to find that piece of gear, but with so many sets now, we need to be able to define the search better imo.

idk · November 2016

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

Let me break this down, just to clarify:

There are three main factors that go into why a "large trading guild" is successful:

a) A competent guildmaster with competent guild officers
b) A very good location that is constantly bombarded with foot traffic
c) guild members who are constantly putting things up for sale at prices where they will actually sell (i.e. not trying to sell 10k items for 100k, etc.)

Part/most of the reason why the large guilds request weekly dues is because in order to secure factor b), the bids are ridiculously high for the best spots. As in, multi-millions of gold. Whether anyone agrees that they should be that high or not is irrelevant; the fact is they do cost that much. So asking 5k or whatever a week for a location that will easily net you 100K worth of sales if you're the least bit competent in trading is not a hard stretch.

One of my guilds is Ethereal Traders Union. Our guildmaster @Anslay is the freaking best, and even if she were "sitting on millions upon millions of gold", I'd be fine with that, because as guildmaster the sheer amount of work she puts into keeping our guild running like clockwork and running events, etc. is immense and she would deserve every penny (does gold have pennies?).

The moral of the story is that if you think you're ready to be a member of one of the "large trading guilds" and yet are having so much trouble selling enough stuff to cover a 5k-or-whatever-it-is weekly due, then the reality is that you're not ready to be a member of one of the large trading guilds. That's not meant to sound snooty; it's just the face-value of the situation. Heck, sell a single tempering alloy for 10k. Hey, look at that, you have two weeks' worth of dues! Maybe 5k a week would be a bit much if you were in some boonie-ville location in the middle of nowhere, but if the guild's centrally located in a high traffic zone, coming up with 5k should be a five-minute endeavour, if that.

Says it properly. Thanks for the thorough explanation.

Valethar wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

most people in this game don't want global auction houses. in fact i don't know of anyone that wanted global auction houses back before you had guild trade vendors.

And yet I clearly recall numerous threads back during Alpha/Beta asking for an AH.

It's been a thing for quite a while. It's not a matter of 'most people want/don't want' (never mind that people using that line have absolutely zero hard evidence or metrics to back the claims), ZOS decided they didn't want an AH, and instead went with something else. In the end, that's all that matters, because they're the ones that make the decisions.

Mostly due to the vocal minority. When someone is against something they are more likely to protests.

I'd be complaining if it was a central trading system and even more if it were a central AH. Those that are asking for an AH actually don't want that, they just don't seem to know what Ann AH is.

Stopnaggin · November 2016

Just because people complain about wanting an AH doesn't mean they are the majority. In my experience those that are posting on here are the minority. If I'm happy with the way things are run I have no need to come to the forums.

Prof_Bawbag · November 2016

AzuraKin wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

Constantly catering to casuals dumbs a game down and makes it boring. ESO has done enough of that recently.

Catering to causals is what keeps most modern high budget games afloat nowadays. Without those causals I highly doubt ESO would have much legs left or would have probably died awhile ago.

in my experience, its when games cater to the casuals and unintelligent, unskilled players that the hard core gamers leave.

That wasn't my point. The fact is, games are so expensive (ESO being one of them) to make and maintain nowadays it doesn't really matter what you or I (or the guy i was responding to) think. It only matters what the majority think and what the majority want are games that are easily accessible to all levels of skill. I'm not saying there aren't any games around that only cater to the "intelligent" and "hardcore", I'm saying not many games would survive for any length of time due to the money required to keep them in profit. It really is no coincidence that as console gaming grew, many old time devs either went under or simplified/evolved their games/products.

I'd like nothing more than a new Planescape/BG game, but it won't happen because the audience isn't there on a large scale, especially for a company like BioWare who are now in the business of making millions as to sustain both themselves and EA. Interplay found out to their cost that niche "intelligent" games don't sell enough to cover costs. It's also highlighted by the fact most of these niche devs have to go with begging bowl in-hand to sites such as kickstarter before they can make their games.

Elsonso · November 2016

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Just because people complain about wanting an AH doesn't mean they are the majority. In my experience those that are posting on here are the minority. If I'm happy with the way things are run I have no need to come to the forums.

The definition of "majority" is a tricky one.

I prefer to consider that Guild Traders fit the game far better than an Auction House would ever be able. The Auction House is nothing but a utility, and with all the flaws that it brings, more trouble than it is worth.

Guild Traders allow for more than enough sales opportunity, and stuff moves out of them quite nicely, even in the more rural locations. For PC/Mac players, at least in NA, there is no waiting to get into a guild with a trader. On the larger scale, they are working. They just need some attention to make them work more efficiently, and to find those guilds that have traders.

Until such time as every kiosk is backed by a guild with 500 players, there is room for people to enter the trading system. Getting people into that system is what ZOS really needs to address.

OOJIMMY · November 2016

I wish they would at least add a feature that I could search an item and it would tell me what traders are selling the item I want. Doesn't even have to show prices just locations with traders that have my item.
Been looking for a sharpened ravaging weapon for months now, and I'm tired of spending a hour a day searching for nothing

Stopnaggin · November 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Just because people complain about wanting an AH doesn't mean they are the majority. In my experience those that are posting on here are the minority. If I'm happy with the way things are run I have no need to come to the forums.

The definition of "majority" is a tricky one.

I prefer to consider that Guild Traders fit the game far better than an Auction House would ever be able. The Auction House is nothing but a utility, and with all the flaws that it brings, more trouble than it is worth.

Guild Traders allow for more than enough sales opportunity, and stuff moves out of them quite nicely, even in the more rural locations. For PC/Mac players, at least in NA, there is no waiting to get into a guild with a trader. On the larger scale, they are working. They just need some attention to make them work more efficiently, and to find those guilds that have traders.

Until such time as every kiosk is backed by a guild with 500 players, there is room for people to enter the trading system. Getting people into that system is what ZOS really needs to address.

I agree with most if not all of that. As far as the majority, yeah it's debatable, none of us are privy to that actual number of players involved. In my experience though, the vast number of players in ESO don't go to the forums. I'm one that like to come here and just see what's going on, but I seem to be in the minority of the players that do so, console anyway.

I do agree with guilds having space for new memebers, I know the ones I'm in are always removing non active players, once a week at least. We always seem to hover around 400 to 450 members. I think one thing that would help, if ZOS would monitor these kiosks, I have seen several empty traders in prominent spots. This should be addresses asap. I know it's guilds that have traders near and want to reduce the competition, but how to address that?

Several solutions have been presented, a simple search function per area, wandering merchants allowing consignments. I have no idea what they have planned if anything for the future. But I agree something need tweaking.

GraniteDevil · November 2016

I like Guild Traders. I don't like guild dues though. Primarily because I hate being told that I "need to do" something (pay gold) to another person/entity in a video game. In my video game. Nobody in an MMO gets to tell me that I'm obligated to give them something.

That's why I'm in a couple of successful guilds that have traders and don't charge dues. I've sold enough to make me happy and I'll continue to do it, I'm sure.

I am *extremely* grateful that we have guild traders and *not* an auction house. I can only imagine the crap-show that would be on Xbox. :shiver:

My only problem with traders is that the search system absolutely sucks ass. Why is there no text-based search? Who knows. But I'll take a crap search system over a global auction house any day of the week.

jedtb16_ESO · November 2016

ookami007 wrote: »

snip
6 - Requires GUILDS to work for the players - not PLAYERS to work for the guilds

snip

[Edit to remove baiting]

you seem to be forgetting (or are completely unaware of) the fact that guilds are players.

a guild is a group of players gathered together.... the game system gives them a little more functionality in terms of communication, travel and trading than they would enjoy as individuals.

jedtb16_ESO · November 2016

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

odysseus33 wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

You get an F in math for today. 120m/20k=6000. Your theory is great with a finite supply. You have thousands of players resupply in the market each day. Price fixing only works when you control the supply as well. Know why gas prices arent $50 a gallon, because the supply isn't controlled.

Yeah realized that mistake after posting. Doesn't change the fact. That infinite supply is fine but people can still corner the market. We are not talking about economics here, where the price is driven by me factors than supply and demand. That's a different topic all together. And by the way supply is controlled, so as not to devalue the price of oil, again another subject.

We are talking about ah vs gt. The theory still stands. Real world economics also have other

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So limit the number of transactions per day, so now would be punished by a limit? AH is not a good way to go. Way to easy for a few people to control.

Example:
4 people with 30 mil ea = 120 mil
Alloy 20k ea
So 120 mil ÷ 20k = 6 million alloys
Now 6 million alloys are now off the market at 20k ea, now they want 40k ea.
4 people just cornered the market with almost no effort. That precious gold upgrade will now cost you double. And if you think that doesnt happen you're crazy. I've seen it first hand, I've watched people snipe items off an auction house faster then you can hit your button. Ah it would never happen right? Wrong some people get off on in game gold.

Resources are not finite, and trying to corner the market on an ever replenishing item is like trying to hold sand in your fist.

If I am harvesting and supplying the market with alloys at 20k, I don't care if anyone buys them up and tries to resell them at a higher price. If someone snipes them off the market at the 20k that I'm listing it, then I win. I sold it fast and I sold it at the price I asked.

There is NOTHING on the market that cannot be obtained personally.

I agree with the selling price but it doesn't change the fact that being able to corner the market with an AH is easier than it is with a guild trader. And I have stated before, if you don't want to farm for yourself than pay the price. In my above example 6 million alloys could be taken off the market easier than they can now.

So you sell your alloys for 20k great for you, but not for the others that are complain about guild prices, so if we could stay on topic, that would be great.

My point was perfectly on topic. If the price is too high, you can farm your own and not rely on inflated AH prices. You simply can't corner the market if the product can be produced by the individual.

You are paying simply for the convenience of not producing your own product.

To try and corner that type of a market is an insane gamble. There will be a breaking point where all those alloys that you bought and listed for 10x the price simply will not sell.

And how is that harder to control with an auction house? I can now have a one stop shop to buy all the gold mats. Finite supply yes for those willing to put in the work. I farm so it really doesn't have any effect on me. I sell when people want to buy I set my price. Insane gamble or not, people will do it. As opposed to real world economics where there are laws and regulations. I'm really not sure what your arguing for? I don't want an AH, it's too easy to abuse compared to the current system. So what exactly is your stance on the subject?

I'm pro AH or at the very LEAST pro universal search feature so you can find items. Our current system is a pain in the ass for buyers and sellers.

*Guilds are limited to 500 members - finding a good and established guild can be a pain

*Prime locations are limited and far too expensive to maintain a kiosk for most guilds 0 especially smaller ones.

*Some kiosk locations are SO far out of the loop that I actually feel sorry for the vendor.

*People are FORCED to spam zone chat to sell items if they cannot get into a viable trade guild.

people are not forced to do anything...... i am not forced to use /z to sell stuff i choose to.

kongkim · November 2016

I like the guild traders. Its different then in so many other game. And i do like its not always the same

And i think its a fun and cool way that you need to be in a Trade guild to do trading.

timidobserver · November 2016

Guild traders are fine and shouldn't go anywhere, but it would definitely be nice to have access to an alternative trading system, aside from zone chat selling, that doesn't require going through a middleman/guild. Trade guilds are high maintenance compared to other types of guilds.