Armor skill line re-design is needed

sneakymitchell · September 2016

should increase the armor for light armors if people don't like getting one shoot if you don't have a shield

Memnock · September 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Memnock wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Memnock et al, how do we feel about this for Vigilance:

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, when struck by a projectile, the damage you take from subsequent projectiles of the same damage type is reduced by X% for Y seconds.

Isn't this kind of the same thing as the original , but changed from a passive to a proc based resistance buff , or am i misunderstanding what you are trying to say ?

The issue that i have with this passive is that it addresses only ranged attacks , stuff like Crystal Frags , Merciless Resolve, Poison Injections and ranged light and heavy attacks from either staves or bows , but it does not do anything for stuff like Flurry , or Wrecking Block or Executioner , or basically any light or heavy melee attack from any sword , dagger , axes and mace.

Long story short , the issue that i see is that your passive is geared towards mitigating only ranged damage , while leaving melee damage unaffected by the perk.

So my suggestion for this passive is this :

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, when struck by an attack , the damage you take from subsequent attacks of the same damage type is reduced by X% for Y seconds

I definitely understand where you are coming from @Memnock - the philosophy behind ranged mitigation only is that fighting near the front makes the player more exposed to ranged enemy onslaught, so a survivability boost is needed to allow a little more offensive uptime while fighting in melee. Using armor that is less bulky than plate mail means that you can more easily move to avoid projectiles, especially after already being hit by one and are now aware of the ranged attackers and what they are throwing at you.

I would not be too keen on buffing melee mitigation for medium armor anyway - that's what heavy armor is for.

(Edits for clarity)

The thing is , with the changes you proposed to light and medium armors , it seems that it doesn't really matter which one you choose to go with in either case ( being ranged or a mage or going for a melee approach ) since both kind of have passives that boost the damage so you can be a melee character in 5 piece light , i can actually see a gank NB ( stam or mage ) build taking great advantage of the light armor passives and that forces them to be up the another guy's face

On the other hand , a medium armored guy , can do kind of the same thing ( but with the medium passives maybe having an orientation towards being more exposed and going for sustain ) , since the passives are stam and magic oriented , on top of the fact that in this game , without a very good situational awareness and not taking into account the lag in cirodil , can't really keep their distance for very long unless they are in a coordinated large group.

In this scenario , the guy who wears medium has a little bit of an edge against all ranged stuff on top of better armor compared to light.

Solariken · September 2016

Thread patch notes 9/28/2016:

1. Added a short cooldown to Vigilance.

2. Fixed an issue where @ZOS_GinaBruno had not yet printed a copy of the OP and put it on @ZOS_RichLambert 's desk. This should now occur more reliably.

Solariken · November 2016

Still no word on what's coming down the balancing pipe, but I hope they are considering this for armor skill lines.

Nedd · November 2016

Don't agree that light is better for sneaking. Sneaking is more difficult if you have layers of cloth just flapping around as you try to move.

Overall this sounds nice, but I personally prefer the current system. If both cater to both types, one will be better than the other for a given sitatuion. I think it won't increase diversity at all. Not that we have great diversity, I just don't think the system will improve upon it.

Solariken · November 2016

Nedd wrote: »

Don't agree that light is better for sneaking. Sneaking is more difficult if you have layers of cloth just flapping around as you try to move.

Haha! So ninjas have been getting it wrong all this time?

Nedd wrote: »

Overall this sounds nice, but I personally prefer the current system. If both cater to both types, one will be better than the other for a given sitatuion. I think it won't increase diversity at all. Not that we have great diversity, I just don't think the system will improve upon it.

@Nedd, yes that is exactly the point. Everything in this game is (and should be) situational in usefulness, otherwise there is no reason to ever change your build/bars/skills/potions/whatever.

Under the current system, there is no real choice afforded to the player. Excluding heavy armor considerations, if you play to magicka, you are forced into light armor and if you play to stamina you are forced into medium. I am proposing a choice for both types to fit your playstyle, not just forcing players to conform to an arbitrary design. The specific passives can be whatever, but the design goal should be to make them equally attractive to magicka and stamina characters. ZOS has done this quite well with heavy armor, there is no reason not to extend the philosophy to the other types.

It sounds like you may be stuck in an outdated MMO paradigm, and I know you are not alone. You (and ZOS) just need to think a little outside the box to understand how this change is needed to breathe new life into ESO character building.

Nedd · November 2016

@Solariken

Don't think you are or were a ninja. At least not a real one.

It sound like you're stuck in your own little idea and should let it go a bit more. This will not change character building in any significant way you think it will. We will still be stuck in the same arbitrary design.

How is "light armor is better for burst and medium for sustained" any less arbitrary than "light is for magicka and medium for stamina"?

In a situation where we have the passives you suggested, or anything that resemble it, people will just math out the best combination for most situations, and we will have about as much diversity as we have today, and that's practically zero.

Ghost-Shot · November 2016

When I started reading I expected to hate the idea, but I actually like this a lot. It will give meaningful gearing decisions to putting a build together and would, in theory at least, be far easier to balance.

Vythri · November 2016

Not bad ideas, but RIP bow builds with that medium armor passive. I'm definitely against anything that does that.

Kutsuu · November 2016

I like the idea. It gives both magicka and stamina setups a lot more choices. I've also always wanted to see 4 morphs for each skill (2 stam and 2 mag)... but that's a big rework also.

Volrion · November 2016

I like all except the passive for reducing projectile damage.

Bow sucks hard enough as it is. The last thing it needs is another nerf to its damage output!

I am strongly opposed to that one. Aside from that, I think it's pretty great.

Nice post, OP.

Solariken · November 2016

SourishWhale wrote: »

I like all except the passive for reducing projectile damage.

Bow sucks hard enough as it is. The last thing it needs is another nerf to its damage output!

I am strongly opposed to that one. Aside from that, I think it's pretty great.

Nice post, OP.

Fair enough @SourishWhale, that passive has been a point of contention for a few people and for good reason. I agree with the argument that it is overly punitive to bow users.

I changed it so that it still procs when struck by a projectile but only reduces damage of melee and ground AoE. The point of the passive is simply to provide a small amount of survivability during front-line skirmishes.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2016

Not a fan,. I like the current method. Pve is just fine. Pvp is a little different. To buff light and medium, i think they need to take away the 5 pieces requirement for medium and light. Leave it on heavy.

This would allow for more of a mix.

Solariken · November 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Not a fan,. I like the current method. Pve is just fine. Pvp is a little different. To buff light and medium, i think they need to take away the 5 pieces requirement for medium and light. Leave it on heavy.

This would allow for more of a mix.

Eww, the current system is bullocks, not many people around who actually like it.

Sheey · November 2016

So your opinion is make light armor for rollplaying. Increase its movement and sneak speed and leave the rest how it was.

Make medium armor tankier in general. Add damage reduction passiv to medium armor which is already used to the most powerfull and effectiv passiv utility: dodgeroll + shuffle.

Addentionally add some useless stamina cost reduction towards the already weak light armor passiv. Which magica user is using stamina abilities?!

Addentionally give medium armor increased magica recovery that the already overpowered stamina builds have 24/7 use to scales/cloak/purge and darkdeal.

YOU CANT BE SERIOUS OMFG LMAO

AzuraKin · November 2016

crap idea, all you would do is basically make medium armor useless. dps would wear light armor tanks and healers heavy armor and no one would wear medium armor.

kessik221 · November 2016

These proposed changes look cool but make no sense in a mmo environment. If the extra damage outweighed the damage taken then everyone would wear light and if it didnt everyone would wear medium. Theres no real choice with your system. The game would benefit more from a transmog system like WoW.

Solariken · November 2016

Sheey wrote: »

So your opinion is make light armor for rollplaying. Increase its movement and sneak speed and leave the rest how it was.

Make medium armor tankier in general. Add damage reduction passiv to medium armor which is already used to the most powerfull and effectiv passiv utility: dodgeroll + shuffle.

Addentionally add some useless stamina cost reduction towards the already weak light armor passiv. Which magica user is using stamina abilities?!

Addentionally give medium armor increased magica recovery that the already overpowered stamina builds have 24/7 use to scales/cloak/purge and darkdeal.

YOU CANT BE SERIOUS OMFG LMAO

It would be a pretty great forum feature to be able to make people pass a reading comprehension exam before commenting. Sigh...

Solariken · November 2016

AzuraKin wrote: »

crap idea, all you would do is basically make medium armor useless. dps would wear light armor tanks and healers heavy armor and no one would wear medium armor.

You shouldn't make hard statements like that without offering a basis for saying so. Why would nobody wear medium? I don't think you understand situational value of stats.

Solariken · November 2016

kessik221 wrote: »

These proposed changes look cool but make no sense in a mmo environment. If the extra damage outweighed the damage taken then everyone would wear light and if it didnt everyone would wear medium. Theres no real choice with your system. The game would benefit more from a transmog system like WoW.

I disagree completely - in MMOs there are more mechanics than raw damage that are important, especially in PvP.

kessik221 · November 2016

Solariken wrote: »

kessik221 wrote: »

These proposed changes look cool but make no sense in a mmo environment. If the extra damage outweighed the damage taken then everyone would wear light and if it didnt everyone would wear medium. Theres no real choice with your system. The game would benefit more from a transmog system like WoW.

I disagree completely - in MMOs there are more mechanics than raw damage that are important, especially in PvP.

The way this game is designed there is no encounter that would favor medium armor over heavy or light as proposed.

kessik221 · November 2016

And actually the ways things steriotypically are with wizards being in robes fighters being in leather and tanks being in leather makes sense. Mages generally cast from afar to avoid damage so it makes sense to be mobile and light being able to move. Fighters are in melee range meaning they need more protection. Tanks take the brunt of it all wearing metal makes sense.

Volrion · November 2016

Solariken wrote: »

SourishWhale wrote: »

I like all except the passive for reducing projectile damage.

Bow sucks hard enough as it is. The last thing it needs is another nerf to its damage output!

I am strongly opposed to that one. Aside from that, I think it's pretty great.

Nice post, OP.

Fair enough @SourishWhale, that passive has been a point of contention for a few people and for good reason. I agree with the argument that it is overly punitive to bow users.

I changed it so that it still procs when struck by a projectile but only reduces damage of melee and ground AoE. The point of the passive is simply to provide a small amount of survivability during front-line skirmishes.

That makes sense.

I do like your change. I was actually going to suggest the same thing. The follow up melee reduction is a cool idea.

Although given a little more thought, I'm not sure if it's really a necessary passive though. I think people just need to build around their weaknesses more.

Having full divines/infused armor on, I deserve to be vulnerable to a bow opener followed by gap closer. But with that passive, it would make me quite tanky in medium, without losing my huge burst potential. I could see it being a little unbalanced depending on how strong the mitigation is on the passive.

I like the notion of equal benefits for Magicka and Stamina in terms of resources and damage output, but I dont think that passive really fits with the medium armor skill line.

I think the Vigilance passive needs a rework.

I see medium as more of an endurance/battle mobility piece of equipment, than outright damage mitigation.

You should play on the elusiveness of the armor more than its tankiness, in my opinion.

Any one of these, perhaps?

With 5+ medium armor equipped;

1) After initial active dodge roll, the subsequent cost of each dodge roll is reduced by (x)%.

2) Maybe something similar to the Unchained CP passive;

When successfully (actively) dodging an attack, the next active dodge roll costs 50% less. (5 second cooldown).

3) After actively dodging an attack, grant minor endurance for 5 seconds.

4) After actively dodging an attack, grant minor expedition for 10 seconds.

(I personally prefer 3 or 4, as they reward skilled play.)

What do you think?

*Ive not read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned.