Armor skill line re-design is needed

Solariken

Hi all, I've been thinking about armor passives a lot recently, and I feel that a mild re-imagining of the passives is needed to make them more logical and more in line with the TES mantra of "play as you want" while also installing better balance and more diversity. I'm not sure how it became an MMO trope to pidgeon-hole wizards into robes and physical fighters into leather and tanks into metal, but the design is flawed. ESO makes this even worse by forcing players into an odd dichotomy of “magicka or stamina" which destroys the option for build hybridization. Armor types should not be dependent on whether you cast spells or swing a sword, but instead linked to your combat archetype or playstyle. The decision between magicka and stamina should be entirely independent of which armor type you decide to use, for reasons which will become clear in a moment.

Design Philosophy

Light armor should be designed for the relative best combat speed, burst damage, and stealth capability. With lower encumbrance and softer/lighter material, the wearer can run faster and longer, sneak more effectively, and swing weapons faster and with more accuracy. The obvious weakness is that the user is more vulnerable to incoming damage and will struggle more to survive when focused.

Medium armor offers more protection from attacks and padding against falls. Roll dodge should be easier to execute and projectiles will sting less and be deflected a little more often. Slightly heavier armor also means more forceful attacks, though slightly less accurate than fighting in light armor. Medium armor should be tooled for close skirmishes, sustained damage output, and active mitigation with a little boost in survivability.

Heavy armor should be built for passive mitigation, situational sustain, and healing/recovery with a focus on applying pressure and surviving at the front line of battle. It offers formidable offensive power in melee but with a cost of reduced speed and burst damage potential. (Let me say that I think heavy armor is actually in a really decent spot in ESO at the moment).

This philosophy naturally sets up a trade-off where players must decide where to place themselves on a spectrum of damage output versus survivability/support. The current design makes it far too easy for players to achieve maximum DPS, self-healing, mitigation, and sustain barely any sacrifices. As an example, if you choose to be a stamina-focused DPS character, you would now have to decide on an appropriate balance between burst (light armor - cost reduction, crit, penetration) and sustain (medium armor - recovery, raw damage increase, better survivability).

To those ends, I am proposing that light armor be designed for high burst damage and the highest sustained DPS sets for BOTH magicka and stamina specializations. Medium armor should also be designed for BOTH magicka and stamina specs, but with greater focus on support/sustain/utility and less focus on damage output. Heavy armor is already useful for both stamina and magicka and I personally feel the passives are well-designed. Here are my suggestions for armor passives, most of which are the same as currently available but shuffled around to achieve stated goals:

Light Armor

Conditioned Focus
Reduces the magicka and stamina cost of skills by X% per piece of light armor equipped.

Dexterity
Increases weapon and spell critical strike rating by X per piece of light armor equipped.

Improved Sneak
Reduces the cost of sneaking by X% per piece of light armor equipped and reduces the size of your detection area by X% per piece of light armor equipped.

Concentration
With at least 5 pieces of light armor equipped, your armor and spell penetration are increased by X.

Athletics
Increases your movement speed while sprinting by X% and reduces the cost of sprint by X% per piece of light armor equipped.

With at least 5 pieces of light armor equipped, increases all un-mounted movement speed by X%

Medium Armor

Recovery
Increases magicka and stamina recovery by X% per piece of medium armor equipped.

Skirmisher
Reduces the cost of dodge roll by X% and reduces the efficacy and duration of snares and immobilizes by X% per piece of medium armor equipped.

Agility
Increases your weapon and spell damage by X% per piece of medium armor equipped.

Vigilance
Reduces the damage you take from stealthed or invisible targets by X% per piece of medium armor equipped.

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, when struck by a projectile, the damage you take from melee attacks and ground-based area of effect attacks is reduced by X% for Y seconds. This effect has a cooldown of (Y*2) seconds.

Battle Focus
With 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, increases the effectiveness all targeted damage and healing over time effects you initiate by X%. Ground-targeted effects do not receive this bonus.

Heavy Armor
...is working pretty well at the moment. Some people oppose the Wrath passive, but I think it is appropriately designed as a wind-up mechanic and limits heavy armor burst damage potential.


Now obviously my suggestions will require reclassification of many sets in game. The stamina sets focused on high/burst DPS would be classified as light armor, and the magicka sets focused on sustain would be changed to medium. Heavy armor sets shouldn't require adjustment in most circumstances. I do not imagine it would be a terribly daunting task for the devs to change the armor type of certain dropped sets where appropriate.

@ZOS_RichLambert, you've been on a roll lately with making sensible improvements to the game and its systems. You have been seemingly much more receptive to intelligent community feedback and I applaud you for this. I hope you take the time to consider how changing armor passives in this way will be very good for the game.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn

Solariken

Additionally, the active armor skills for light/medium will likely need to be adjusted for balance, but that needs to happen anyway and should be a separate discussion.

Waffennacht

I do love the idea that you've put forth. Literally balanced as both stam and magicka are addressed with each type.

I just don't see such a huge change being implemented.

Solariken

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do love the idea that you've put forth. Literally balanced as both stam and magicka are addressed with each type.

I just don't see such a huge change being implemented.

It is a significant change @Waffennacht, but I can only hope it's something ZOS will at least consider since it would be such an incredible improvement over the current design.

I am certainly not holding my breath on this though, I am fully aware that 99.99% of the suggestions offered by players disappear into the nether.

Rykmaar

Hmm.

I actually like this idea a lot. This brings us back to TES 3 days. I like what you did by looking at light and medium armor and allowing them to be used for both magicka and stamina builds depending on how the user wants to play. I support this idea.

Now, I don't think that this would require reitemization of existing sets. I think that the crafting system can fill the gaps in itemization here. However, going forward, I think that new items would need some flair to match this design.

In all honesty, I know a balance patch is coming, but this would address some of the issues we're facing with armor line imbalance by opening up light and medium to both stamina and magicka.

Rykmaar

Anyone else have any thoughts on OP's idea? To me, it sounds like a stroke of brilliance.

Kyye

I could see this alone bringing more balance to the game. The fact that you're forced to choose which resource pool you pull from they should be equal in that sense. There was another thread suggesting alternate means of dodge and blocking with your magicka pool which needs to be reviewed to. Imagine stamina builds using magicka for dodge roll and block. It'd be like magicka using stamina for that now. That'd open a lot of possibilities. I've been having fun with a hybrid build using stamina as survivability and burst with magicka to keep the pressure. Working unbelievably well.

Rykmaar

Kyye wrote: »

I could see this alone bringing more balance to the game. The fact that you're forced to choose which resource pool you pull from they should be equal in that sense. There was another thread suggesting alternate means of dodge and blocking with your magicka pool which needs to be reviewed to. Imagine stamina builds using magicka for dodge roll and block. It'd be like magicka using stamina for that now. That'd open a lot of possibilities. I've been having fun with a hybrid build using stamina as survivability and burst with magicka to keep the pressure. Working unbelievably well.

Yeah, that's how I received OP's idea too.

I think that there should be an incentive to all armor types and it can't be locked behind resources. You could make any armor wearable for any build in TES games, no reason that the same logic couldn't be implemented here as well with reasonable restrictions and balance considerations.

I really love the idea of medium and light offering different mirrored passive bonuses. It would really encourage players to experiment and come up with more unique builds and, to be honest, I think this would go a long way towards all the balance gripes that people have (myself included).

This system (or something similar) and spell crafting and ESO would be bang on.

Cogo

No, no, no!

Solariken

Cogo wrote: »

No, no, no!

Thank you for this sagacious contribution to the discussion. I'm so glad that you took the time to elucidate us all with your well-thought argument. If only these forums had more posts like yours...

/sarcasm

Bryanonymous

This cake is baked. You can add more frosting to it, but if you wanted a different filling, might as well just bake a new one.

Solariken

Bryanonymous wrote: »

This cake is baked.

And the hay is in the barn.

Xvorg

Great idea OP. As somebody mentioned above, it is in-lore with Morowind (though in that game there were 4 armor types: the 3 mentioned here and unnarmored).

Nonetheless, I see that it will never be implemented...

Memnock

A very interesting change to the way armor types work , but i need your help understanding 1 of your suggestions from the medium armor :

Vigilance
Reduces the damage you take from stealthed or invisible targets by X% per piece of medium armor equipped.

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, reduces the damage you take from projectiles by X%.

This thing would kind of gimp all ranged classes , since i see bows and all projectile based spells getting their damage reduced when compared to melee stuff that just has the armor to contend with , should this not be changed to something like maybe provide a small amount of resistance to a certain attack type ?

For example a guy wearing 5 medium is hit by melee damage , then they proc a buff that increases melee resistance by say 3%. Same thing applies to every other attach type , be it magic , or elemental or poison or whatever else , with an added condition that only 1 resistance can be active at a time , to balance it out.

altemriel

nice!!

Solariken

Memnock wrote: »

A very interesting change to the way armor types work , but i need your help understanding 1 of your suggestions from the medium armor :

Vigilance
Reduces the damage you take from stealthed or invisible targets by X% per piece of medium armor equipped.

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, reduces the damage you take from projectiles by X%.

This thing would kind of gimp all ranged classes , since i see bows and all projectile based spells getting their damage reduced when compared to melee stuff that just has the armor to contend with , should this not be changed to something like maybe provide a small amount of resistance to a certain attack type ?

For example a guy wearing 5 medium is hit by melee damage , then they proc a buff that increases melee resistance by say 3%. Same thing applies to every other attach type , be it magic , or elemental or poison or whatever else , with an added condition that only 1 resistance can be active at a time , to balance it out.

Great idea @Memnock! A short-duration buff proc with a short cooldown actually would be a much better solution than a full-time buff against all ranged. I'll edit the OP when I get home later.

Solariken

@Memnock et al, how do we feel about this for Vigilance:

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, when struck by a projectile, the damage you take from subsequent projectiles of the same damage type is reduced by X% for Y seconds.

Memnock

Solariken wrote: »

@Memnock et al, how do we feel about this for Vigilance:

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, when struck by a projectile, the damage you take from subsequent projectiles of the same damage type is reduced by X% for Y seconds.

Isn't this kind of the same thing as the original , but changed from a passive to a proc based resistance buff , or am i misunderstanding what you are trying to say ?

The issue that i have with this passive is that it addresses only ranged attacks , stuff like Crystal Frags , Merciless Resolve, Poison Injections and ranged light and heavy attacks from either staves or bows , but it does not do anything for stuff like Flurry , or Wrecking Block or Executioner , or basically any light or heavy melee attack from any sword , dagger , axes and mace.

Long story short , the issue that i see is that your passive is geared towards mitigating only ranged damage , while leaving melee damage unaffected by the perk.

So my suggestion for this passive is this :

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, when struck by an attack , the damage you take from subsequent attacks of the same damage type is reduced by X% for Y seconds

Solariken

Memnock wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Memnock et al, how do we feel about this for Vigilance:

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, when struck by a projectile, the damage you take from subsequent projectiles of the same damage type is reduced by X% for Y seconds.

Isn't this kind of the same thing as the original , but changed from a passive to a proc based resistance buff , or am i misunderstanding what you are trying to say ?

The issue that i have with this passive is that it addresses only ranged attacks , stuff like Crystal Frags , Merciless Resolve, Poison Injections and ranged light and heavy attacks from either staves or bows , but it does not do anything for stuff like Flurry , or Wrecking Block or Executioner , or basically any light or heavy melee attack from any sword , dagger , axes and mace.

Long story short , the issue that i see is that your passive is geared towards mitigating only ranged damage , while leaving melee damage unaffected by the perk.

So my suggestion for this passive is this :

With at least 5 pieces of medium armor equipped, when struck by an attack , the damage you take from subsequent attacks of the same damage type is reduced by X% for Y seconds

I definitely understand where you are coming from @Memnock - the philosophy behind ranged mitigation only is that fighting near the front makes the player more exposed to ranged enemy onslaught, so a survivability boost is needed to allow a little more offensive uptime while fighting in melee. Using armor that is less bulky than plate mail means that you can more easily move to avoid projectiles, especially after already being hit by one and are now aware of the ranged attackers and what they are throwing at you.

I would not be too keen on buffing melee mitigation for medium armor anyway - that's what heavy armor is for.

(Edits for clarity)

DHale

Swing and a miss. Don't agree with op.

Hluill

Awesome post with great suggestions! Thanks for taking the time to craft this.

I would love to see changes like this.

For me the formula is simple: Armor is protection but also encumbrance. People that train in their armor develop skill and are less encumbered by it. Stronger, tougher people can wear heavier armor. Hence the old rule for mages not wearing armor...

But it's also bothered me that light armor give only bonuses to magic. If my sneaky character decided to take of his thirty pounds of hardened leather and wear only five pounds of silk instead then he would move more quietly and faster. Currently, this is not the case. In fact one of the Nightblade skill lines offers a bonus for HEAVY armor. Great for what i call my Shadow Knight build, but really kinda silly.

And I am of the opinion that only hard, plate armor should give ranged mitigation... and medium or larger shields.

Is chainmail heavy or medium in your mind?

Solariken

DHale wrote: »

Swing and a miss. Don't agree with op.

Care to elaborate @DHale?

Neoauspex

I'd be fine with those changes. Definitely it should not be the case that one passive in the medium skill line does the exact same thing as two separate passives in the light armor skill line.

Also, I think cold damage should get a bonus against heavy armor to provide a counter and improve a lackluster damage type.

Solariken

Neoauspex wrote: »

Also, I think cold damage should get a bonus against heavy armor to provide a counter and improve a lackluster damage type.

I think that's kind of a cool idea, but only if fire does additional damage to light armor users.

Neoauspex

Solariken wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Also, I think cold damage should get a bonus against heavy armor to provide a counter and improve a lackluster damage type.

I think that's kind of a cool idea, but only if fire does additional damage to light armor users.

Haha, everything does additional damage to light armor users!

DHale

Sure, racial passives would make some classes even more powerful so say a Breton in light armor (cost reduction) or a wood elf and medium armor (stam regen). I would simply choose a high elf or red guard or wood elf and put on medium armor and have a huge advantage over an Orc with medium armor. On top of that my wood elf gets the stealth damage stacked with the medium armor passive which is why wood elf and khajit are so good in gank builds. Also you said light armor would be more accurate than medium armor. But did not put that in passives. I don't agree that my armor should Impact my ability to connect with my target an ambush in light armor is the same in medium armor only the damage changes in the current live game. The game cannot discern each piece of armor I am wearing at the time I cast an ability. Even if it did that is more server checks not less.

nordsavage

Terrible ideas.

Rykmaar

Hluill wrote: »

Awesome post with great suggestions! Thanks for taking the time to craft this.

I would love to see changes like this.

For me the formula is simple: Armor is protection but also encumbrance. People that train in their armor develop skill and are less encumbered by it. Stronger, tougher people can wear heavier armor. Hence the old rule for mages not wearing armor...

But it's also bothered me that light armor give only bonuses to magic. If my sneaky character decided to take of his thirty pounds of hardened leather and wear only five pounds of silk instead then he would move more quietly and faster. Currently, this is not the case. In fact one of the Nightblade skill lines offers a bonus for HEAVY armor. Great for what i call my Shadow Knight build, but really kinda silly.

And I am of the opinion that only hard, plate armor should give ranged mitigation... and medium or larger shields.

Is chainmail heavy or medium in your mind?

That last point is a good one in my book too. You put on all that plate armor for a reason.

I don't think that medium should get a reduction in damage to a specific attack type in this new theoretical system. You should make choices to wear armor. Light and medium should offer tempting damage-related options to justify using them over heavy armor which offers tempting mitigation/protection options.

OP's suggestion still stands though, armor system needs a makeover. Game is too pigeonholed atm.

Solariken

DHale wrote: »

Sure, racial passives would make some classes even more powerful so say a Breton in light armor (cost reduction) or a wood elf and medium armor (stam regen). I would simply choose a high elf or red guard or wood elf and put on medium armor and have a huge advantage over an Orc with medium armor. On top of that my wood elf gets the stealth damage stacked with the medium armor passive which is why wood elf and khajit are so good in gank builds. Also you said light armor would be more accurate than medium armor. But did not put that in passives. I don't agree that my armor should Impact my ability to connect with my target an ambush in light armor is the same in medium armor only the damage changes in the current live game. The game cannot discern each piece of armor I am wearing at the time I cast an ability. Even if it did that is more server checks not less.

1. Cost reduction and regen are already in the armor passives in the live game - racial passives would interact with armor passives the same way they do currently, except now cost reduction and regen would be separated. You don't really have a valid argument on that.

2. Accuracy = critical strike rating. Crit is a burst-friendly stat and is in light armor passives. I was not suggesting anything to do with missing your target because that would be lame gameplay.

I know there is a lot in my OP but it sounds like maybe you just didn't take a lot of time to read it in depth. The counterarguments you listed are pretty much non-issues.

Solariken

Rykmaar wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

Awesome post with great suggestions! Thanks for taking the time to craft this.

I would love to see changes like this.

For me the formula is simple: Armor is protection but also encumbrance. People that train in their armor develop skill and are less encumbered by it. Stronger, tougher people can wear heavier armor. Hence the old rule for mages not wearing armor...

But it's also bothered me that light armor give only bonuses to magic. If my sneaky character decided to take of his thirty pounds of hardened leather and wear only five pounds of silk instead then he would move more quietly and faster. Currently, this is not the case. In fact one of the Nightblade skill lines offers a bonus for HEAVY armor. Great for what i call my Shadow Knight build, but really kinda silly.

And I am of the opinion that only hard, plate armor should give ranged mitigation... and medium or larger shields.

Is chainmail heavy or medium in your mind?

That last point is a good one in my book too. You put on all that plate armor for a reason.

I don't think that medium should get a reduction in damage to a specific attack type in this new theoretical system. You should make choices to wear armor. Light and medium should offer tempting damage-related options to justify using them over heavy armor which offers tempting mitigation/protection options.

OP's suggestion still stands though, armor system needs a makeover. Game is too pigeonholed atm.

I hear you guys, but from what you are saying @Rykmaar, it sounds like you are a little bit stuck in ZOS' design paradigm where light and medium are pure DPS options. This is not the case in my design philosophy, where light armor is the only pure damage-friendly armor, and medium armor is used to strike a balance between damage output and survivability.

You wear more armor for more protection. It should not compete with heavy armor on overall passive mitigation, but medium armor should be more for fighting in melee than light armor, and as such the player is more exposed to enemy ranged attacks and must be more careful to avoid as much ranged damage as possible while trying to simultaneously be offensive, hence the name "Vigilance."

charley222

in my book the best armor system ever is the one from D&D http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Armor http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Armor_Qualities#Armor_Check_Penalty
i`m not fan of armor having a bunch of stats and bonus , this dont serve The Function of Armor
i never see merlin or gandalf using heavy armor lol

i think camelot unchained will have a great armor system


is weird watching mage casting using heavy armor and have any casting delay or damage reduce how mage are able to have strong incantation and having heavy armor they have any run penalty because they teleport lol , make any sense , i guess is very obvious eso team are mage and night blade lover lol . all 95% of skill class are magicka make stamina build having weak class skill and very limited choice ,
and now op asking in this topic to buffing mage lolol