IS a bow Build Pointless

IlCanis_LupuslI · November 2016

Snit wrote: »

A pure bow build is pointless in PvE, at least in any challenging content. Bow does, however, have a place in endgame PvE. Most good stamina DPS builds backbar bow for Endless Hail and Poison Injection. But they spend the vast majority of fights on the Dual-Wield frontbar. The bow is for DoT's.

In PvP, a bow-based gank build can be dangerous with the right build. Due to the flight time of Snipe, you can time a burst so that several things all seem to happen at once for your target.

But, please, don't queue for veteran dungeons as an archer. You may still succeed, but mostly because the rest of the group is carrying you

And i,play on console without the help of any addons

kadar · November 2016

Is it possible to build a bow build that is capable of actually doing something in a dungeon

@Mangeli200194

Holy necro, Batman!

Since we're all here again...

Viable: capable of working successfully; feasible.

A Bow main DPS bar is, in every sense of the word, viable. It is no no way pointless. Everyone gets that the DW/Bow PVE meta can produce higher numbers. That has nothing to do with the viability of a Bow/Bow DPS build.

STEVIL · November 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

Is it possible to build a bow build that is capable of actually doing something in a dungeon

@Mangeli200194

Holy necro, Batman!

Since we're all here again...

Viable: capable of working successfully; feasible.

A Bow main DPS bar is, in every sense of the word, viable. It is no no way pointless. Everyone gets that the DW/Bow PVE meta can produce higher numbers. That has nothing to do with the viability of a Bow/Bow DPS build.

But key is...

If bow dps matched 2h then wouldnt need to get close.
If bow set count matched dw abd still complete content, no need to get close or farm twice as many weapons or spend quality tempers twice etc.
I kno, i know farming maelstrom weapons is so quick reliable consistent and painlessvthat only needing one weapon is trivial snd tempers rain from the heavens like skittles but still.. some fine it vexing.

KrishakPanettier · November 2016

Our guild had a contest to see who could deal the most damage in the least amount of time on a specific dungeon boss. Two bow wielders had the first and second highest (best) times.

Vythri · November 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Is it possible to build a bow build that is capable of actually doing something in a dungeon

@Mangeli200194

Holy necro, Batman!

Since we're all here again...

Viable: capable of working successfully; feasible.

A Bow main DPS bar is, in every sense of the word, viable. It is no no way pointless. Everyone gets that the DW/Bow PVE meta can produce higher numbers. That has nothing to do with the viability of a Bow/Bow DPS build.

But key is...

If bow dps matched 2h then wouldnt need to get close.
If bow set count matched dw abd still complete content, no need to get close or farm twice as many weapons or spend quality tempers twice etc.
I kno, i know farming maelstrom weapons is so quick reliable consistent and painlessvthat only needing one weapon is trivial snd tempers rain from the heavens like skittles but still.. some fine it vexing.

Yep you'd just get everybody using bows all over the place like a bunch of mindless robots. Completely accurate. It would be so much worse than what we currently have now, that's for sure. I much prefer everybody using DW.

masterbroodub17_ESO · November 2016

In short: yes. Even the best bow build possible is still *** compared to a melee build.

It won't change until we get another ranged stamina weapon to pull support from.

Melee weapons get all of the benefit and none of the drawback of ranged weapons, doesn't work the other way around. Ranged weapons as a primary are *** by comparison for this reason.

I know most people here argue that you can complete most content with a good bow/bow build but sorry, most isn't good enough.
I don't need to pull top DPS, but not being good enough to complete all content is inexcusable.

Autolycus · November 2016

Snit wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

A guildmate of mine used to main a bow primary (used DW for execute phase only) and just a couple of days ago wanted to check it out to see if it's still viable. He was able to pull 35k with self buffs

I suspect two things are true here:

1) He has a VMA bow
2) That same friend can do 50k with his DW/ Bow setup

Bow has nothing like the ceiling that DW does.

Actually, said person does 39k with his DW/Bow setup vs. his 35k with bow only (assuming DW for execute b/c he's a NB).

But does that even matter?

A 35k Blood Spawn test easily becomes 40-45k in a fully-buffed raid setting. This kind of ranged dps has the potential to be incredibly valuable for many groups, particularly when having "too many" melee is detrimental to the group.

I believe the underlying point here is that a bow build is not pointless. That is the subject of this thread anyway, not whether the same person can pull 5k higher on a DW setup.

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

In short: yes. Even the best bow build possible is still *** compared to a melee build.

I know most people here argue that you can complete most content with a good bow/bow build but sorry, most isn't good enough.
I don't need to pull top DPS, but not being good enough to complete all content is inexcusable.

This is false. A proper bow build can complete all content. There is no "some" or "most." The guy I described above completed vMA in a fully-dedicated bow build. Again though, execute was a part of his parse. DPS for a NB goes up a respectable amount because of executes and you don't execute from 30m away. I'd wager without executes he sits somewhere around 33k or 34k.

masterbroodub17_ESO · November 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

A guildmate of mine used to main a bow primary (used DW for execute phase only) and just a couple of days ago wanted to check it out to see if it's still viable. He was able to pull 35k with self buffs

I suspect two things are true here:

1) He has a VMA bow
2) That same friend can do 50k with his DW/ Bow setup

Bow has nothing like the ceiling that DW does.

Actually, said person does 39k with his DW/Bow setup vs. his 35k with bow only (assuming DW for execute b/c he's a NB).

But does that even matter?

A 35k Blood Spawn test easily becomes 40-45k in a fully-buffed raid setting. This kind of ranged dps has the potential to be incredibly valuable for many groups, particularly when having "too many" melee is detrimental to the group.

I believe the underlying point here is that a bow build is not pointless. That is the subject of this thread anyway, not whether the same person can pull 5k higher on a DW setup.

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

In short: yes. Even the best bow build possible is still *** compared to a melee build.

I know most people here argue that you can complete most content with a good bow/bow build but sorry, most isn't good enough.
I don't need to pull top DPS, but not being good enough to complete all content is inexcusable.

This is false. A proper bow build can complete all content. There is no "some" or "most." The guy I described above completed vMA in a fully-dedicated bow build. Again though, execute was a part of his parse. DPS for a NB goes up a respectable amount because of executes and you don't execute from 30m away. I'd wager without executes he sits somewhere around 33k or 34k.

Tell that to groups running trials. Also, as was said earlier...39k DPS is still *** compared to what's possible with melee weapons. It's not a difference of 5-10k, it's more like 20 for most people.

Autolycus · November 2016

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

A guildmate of mine used to main a bow primary (used DW for execute phase only) and just a couple of days ago wanted to check it out to see if it's still viable. He was able to pull 35k with self buffs

I suspect two things are true here:

1) He has a VMA bow
2) That same friend can do 50k with his DW/ Bow setup

Bow has nothing like the ceiling that DW does.

Actually, said person does 39k with his DW/Bow setup vs. his 35k with bow only (assuming DW for execute b/c he's a NB).

But does that even matter?

A 35k Blood Spawn test easily becomes 40-45k in a fully-buffed raid setting. This kind of ranged dps has the potential to be incredibly valuable for many groups, particularly when having "too many" melee is detrimental to the group.

I believe the underlying point here is that a bow build is not pointless. That is the subject of this thread anyway, not whether the same person can pull 5k higher on a DW setup.

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

In short: yes. Even the best bow build possible is still *** compared to a melee build.

I know most people here argue that you can complete most content with a good bow/bow build but sorry, most isn't good enough.
I don't need to pull top DPS, but not being good enough to complete all content is inexcusable.

This is false. A proper bow build can complete all content. There is no "some" or "most." The guy I described above completed vMA in a fully-dedicated bow build. Again though, execute was a part of his parse. DPS for a NB goes up a respectable amount because of executes and you don't execute from 30m away. I'd wager without executes he sits somewhere around 33k or 34k.

Tell that to groups running trials. Also, as was said earlier...39k DPS is still *** compared to what's possible with melee weapons. It's not a difference of 5-10k, it's more like 20 for most people.

I don't understand your point. I lead veteran and hardmode trials for my guild. Tell that to myself? Okay, thanks for sharing Auto, I'll be sure to keep in mind that a bow user with this kind of dps is totally viable for future runs. Besides, that 39k parse you quoted is his melee parse. You seem to have missed the point where his melee parse is only 4k higher than his bow parse. Plus this is almost entirely self-buffed (except for Pierce Armor) which means it will easily go to the mid-40s in a practical setting.

We're not comparing apples to oranges here. It's the same guy doing two different tests; both tests used vMA weapons and were geared to the teeth. To have only a 4k discrepancy is really pretty good imho, considering a melee build is making use of 3 vMA weapons instead of 1. It'd be different if he normally pulled 40k and could only do 25-30k on his bow, but that's not what he did. He could pick either one of them and still be a strong contender for a core spot in a competitive run. Good thing I found him first, else he might not get to participate in a group like yours with his "crap 35k" parse... smh.

Also, I expect a ranged dps parse to be lower than melee. Melee dps should have a higher damage potential for the added risk of being melee.

hedna123b14_ESO · November 2016

Just run my build....40k+ dps in trials Bo-Bo...

Kutsuu · November 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Just run my build....40k+ dps in trials Bo-Bo...

I tried to tell them. The denial is real. lol

Curtdogg47 · November 2016

I pretty much play the same way PVP and PVE. Switch out maybe two skills between them. I honestly don't have the natural skill anymore (getting to old) or the time (real life and responsibilities are a ***) to develop the skill to play my toon multiple ways.
I do 95% of my fighting with my bow. %5 with 2H.
It's probably not the optimal setup for top DPS, and I doubt I have any insane DPS numbers. Single target I hit like a truck.
But I have build and rotations that I am comfortable with and work for me. And I have gotten through the vet dungeons I have tired to do. No speed records set, but that's not what I am after. I just want a *** key or 2 keys.

A bow build is not pointless unless you want to think that it is. Is a bow build accepted as an optimal DPS source for dungeons and trials? Not really from some of the post here. You just have to decide what your goal is, do you want to play with a bow and make it work or do you want to run a meta and be a top tier DPS dealing machine?

idk · November 2016

@Arora

Look in tamriel Foundry. In one of the class sections I saw a bow bow guild that was hitting hard based on the SS provided.

With that, part of it would require range and for trials range is not your friend if you want to live. Any good raid leader or healer will have you move in closer for most fights.

Autolycus · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

With that, part of it would require range and for trials range is not your friend if you want to live. Any good raid leader or healer will have you move in closer for most fights. knows how to accommodate a ranged dps without it being detrimental to the group.

Fixed it for you.

The best archers are NBs, and they don't need Combat Prayer b/c they already get it from Relentless Focus. Everything else can be provided at range so as to maximize damage via bow passives. All else is mechanics. So, as long as said archer moves to the right place at the right time, the rest is pretty flexible.

idk · November 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

With that, part of it would require range and for trials range is not your friend if you want to live. Any good raid leader or healer will have you move in closer for most fights. knows how to accommodate a ranged dps without it being detrimental to the group.

Fixed it for you.

The best archers are NBs, and they don't need Combat Prayer b/c they already get it from Relentless Focus. Everything else can be provided at range so as to maximize damage via bow passives. All else is mechanics. So, as long as said archer moves to the right place at the right time, the rest is pretty flexible.

Lol. not worth it. I was correct with my post.

There are fights the NB would be required to be at close range. Many fights at that. Normal trials, no big deal. Vet, if they want to live they'll come into the group.

Thx though.

Autolycus · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

With that, part of it would require range and for trials range is not your friend if you want to live. Any good raid leader or healer will have you move in closer for most fights. knows how to accommodate a ranged dps without it being detrimental to the group.

Fixed it for you.

The best archers are NBs, and they don't need Combat Prayer b/c they already get it from Relentless Focus. Everything else can be provided at range so as to maximize damage via bow passives. All else is mechanics. So, as long as said archer moves to the right place at the right time, the rest is pretty flexible.

Lol. not worth it. I was correct with my post.

There are fights the NB would be required to be at close range. Many fights at that. Normal trials, no big deal. Vet, if they want to live they'll come into the group.

Thx though.

Agree to disagree then. I lead veteran trials and I am familiar with the mechanics of every trial, every boss, and every difficulty. There is not a one that an archer build could not fully participate in (assuming of course that said archer is a good player and properly geared). You're trying to say here that an occasional mechanic disproves the viability of an entire build, and that is an inaccurate and misleading extrapolation of fact.

Indeed for normal trials, none of this really matters because of its relatively low difficulty. Perhaps you simply don't have much experience with an archer in group? Personally, I think you do an injustice to those who actually want to run an archer build by basically telling them they can't ever make the cut. It's okay to say that some groups may have a hard time accommodating an archer, but it's not okay to say an archer cannot participate.

In your first post you said that in trials "range is not your friend if you want to live." In fact, that is the exception, not the standard. For certain mechanics being at range is potentially fatal. But your average pull and average mechanic actually favors range. For the toughest fights in the game, having too many melee is detrimental to the group (e.g. Hardmode Mage with Chain Lightning), whereas having a full group of ranged dps is actually easier for the group on the whole. It's also significantly easier to anticipate mechanics when at range, and allows for a larger margin of error, at least in terms of reaction time, for most mechanics. At the bottom line though, what's going to save an archer from death is knowing the mechanics and reacting appropriately.

On a final note, I'd like to point out that there is a distinct difference between being at range and staying together. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. Let's say you have 4 ranged dps in your group. Unless there is a mechanic that dictates otherwise, those 4 dps are welcome to stick together, perhaps even should stick together so as to afford an easier time on your group's support members when applying something like SPC. Also, as someone with extensive experience healing in veteran trials, I can say personally that I find it quite easy to place a combat prayer on someone outside of the group the vast majority of the time, so I would even extend this concept beyond just NB archers, and to all archers. Still though, we're assuming a good player with good gear.

STEVIL · November 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

With that, part of it would require range and for trials range is not your friend if you want to live. Any good raid leader or healer will have you move in closer for most fights. knows how to accommodate a ranged dps without it being detrimental to the group.

Fixed it for you.

The best archers are NBs, and they don't need Combat Prayer b/c they already get it from Relentless Focus. Everything else can be provided at range so as to maximize damage via bow passives. All else is mechanics. So, as long as said archer moves to the right place at the right time, the rest is pretty flexible.

Lol. not worth it. I was correct with my post.

There are fights the NB would be required to be at close range. Many fights at that. Normal trials, no big deal. Vet, if they want to live they'll come into the group.

Thx though.

Agree to disagree then. I lead veteran trials and I am familiar with the mechanics of every trial, every boss, and every difficulty. There is not a one that an archer build could not fully participate in (assuming of course that said archer is a good player and properly geared). You're trying to say here that an occasional mechanic disproves the viability of an entire build, and that is an inaccurate and misleading extrapolation of fact.

Indeed for normal trials, none of this really matters because of its relatively low difficulty. Perhaps you simply don't have much experience with an archer in group? Personally, I think you do an injustice to those who actually want to run an archer build by basically telling them they can't ever make the cut. It's okay to say that some groups may have a hard time accommodating an archer, but it's not okay to say an archer cannot participate.

In your first post you said that in trials "range is not your friend if you want to live." In fact, that is the exception, not the standard. For certain mechanics being at range is potentially fatal. But your average pull and average mechanic actually favors range. For the toughest fights in the game, having too many melee is detrimental to the group (e.g. Hardmode Mage with Chain Lightning), whereas having a full group of ranged dps is actually easier for the group on the whole. It's also significantly easier to anticipate mechanics when at range, and allows for a larger margin of error, at least in terms of reaction time, for most mechanics. At the bottom line though, what's going to save an archer from death is knowing the mechanics and reacting appropriately.

On a final note, I'd like to point out that there is a distinct difference between being at range and staying together. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. Let's say you have 4 ranged dps in your group. Unless there is a mechanic that dictates otherwise, those 4 dps are welcome to stick together, perhaps even should stick together so as to afford an easier time on your group's support members when applying something like SPC. Also, as someone with extensive experience healing in veteran trials, I can say personally that I find it quite easy to place a combat prayer on someone outside of the group the vast majority of the time, so I would even extend this concept beyond just NB archers, and to all archers. Still though, we're assuming a good player with good gear.

Well said.

It has been said there are some so anti-bow as to kick players with them on main at sight

DragonBound · November 2016

Anti_Virus wrote: »

No, a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

Are you sure about that? Why do we need any weapon to be secondary? Isn't the point that anyone can use any weapon they want as a primary?

hedna123b14_ESO · November 2016

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

No, a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

Are you sure about that? Why do we need any weapon to be secondary? Isn't the point that anyone can use any weapon they want as a primary?

Anyone says that they cant do competitive DPS with Bow hasnt really theorycrafted bow. Its definitely possible and doable and easiest done on a Stamblade...40k+ dps

kadar · November 2016

Kutsuu wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Just run my build....40k+ dps in trials Bo-Bo...

I tried to tell them. The denial is real. lol

Some will just never get it. They saw a stream or a build video where some guy said that you have to DW/Bow or you suck. They will preach that mantra regardless of the evidence shown otherwise.

This thread is so completely derailed, I'm not even sure what it's about anymore. The OP asked whether it's possible to do good DPS with a Bow or whether it's pointless. I think we all know the answer to that question is NOT, "Go DW/Bow, bruh." The answer is simply, yes, you can do good DPS with a Bow.

DragonBound · November 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Just run my build....40k+ dps in trials Bo-Bo...

I tried to tell them. The denial is real. lol

Kutsuu wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Just run my build....40k+ dps in trials Bo-Bo...

I tried to tell them. The denial is real. lol

Kutsuu wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Just run my build....40k+ dps in trials Bo-Bo...

I tried to tell them. The denial is real. lol

Some will just never get it. They saw a stream or a build video where some guy said that you have to DW/Bow or you suck. They will preach that mantra regardless of the evidence shown otherwise.

This thread is so completely derailed, I'm not even sure what it's about anymore. The OP asked whether it's possible to do good DPS with a Bow or whether it's pointless. I think we all know the answer to that question is NOT, "Go DW/Bow, bruh." The answer is simply, yes, you can do good DPS with a Bow.

See that is why I asked if hybrid builds where viable like a battlemage because in allot of mmorpgs it is a mentality thing, but I do not think thats the case with the hybrid thing but it really does seem to be with the bow however.

KingYogi415 · November 2016

Bow is BIS for stam pve and stam pvp

NEXT!