IS a bow Build Pointless

Arora

So, I decided to take a break from duel wield and play around with bow, I was really liking the combo, soloing was easier then ever. Walked into a dungeon and I suck. Is it possible to build a bow build that is capable of actually doing something in a dungeon

DaMastodon

What about endless hail and bombard spam? Bombard roots them while hail nukes them. And poison injection plus snipe should be good for boss fights.

Arora

yeah but it was just not enough DPS as a primary DPS

komodozermike

I think it takes time to level-up a new weapon skill-line before you start seeing it deal the damage you're looking for.

Arora

Its fully leveled.

komodozermike wrote: »

I think it takes time to level-up a new weapon skill-line before you start seeing it deal the damage you're looking for.

Its fully leveled

DaMastodon

Arora wrote: »

yeah but it was just not enough DPS as a primary DPS

Gotcha. I've mainly used bow as my buff and AOE bar. Maybe weaving in some heavy attacks while bombard has them rooted and hail chips away at them would be something to try.

GrumpyDuckling

Bow is my favorite weapon and what I use the most. Unfortunately, as far as numbers are concerned it's relegated mostly to being a support weapon. You can certainly use it, though. Slot it on your back bar, apply dots and aoe, then switch to weapons that do the heavy hitting.

One of the biggest problems I see with the bow is that as a two-handed weapon, it costs you a valuable crafting/set slot. With a bow equipped you can't run 5/5/2 with two full 5-piece sets + a 2-piece monster helm set.

Unless you have a maelstrom or master bow to compensate, that missing slot hurts.

lolo_01b16_ESO

While a pure bow build won't beat dw + bow in terms of dps, you can still do enough damage for every single dungeon, for all normal trials and probably even for vet trials as long as you don't activate hardmode.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I think there are some ways to pull pretty decent numbers (i.e. hit 30k) if you get a VMA and Master bow in good traits. I have the gear, but personally havent tried. I do run leathal arrow on my back bar in some fights for when the mechanics force you out of melee, but generally, the bow is best left as a buff/DOT bar.

Cronopoly

I think Zen has from their perspective tried to present a somewhat balanced combat narrative with Bow. Could you imagine if Bow abilities had more more bonus damage, other than the already strong Snipe?

Stamina toons already get Extremely high Melee range Burst. If Bow was given more of a damage boost over what it already has, a 2H /Bow build would have the best of both worlds. That said, Many think that's already the case.

Now I do see very decently geared Bow user specs around where damage can be high by using all of the abilities available to you. I had been playing around with a Bow spec @Alcast described on his YT channel. It's PVP centric but you can easily tailor it's strengths to PVE with some sustain tweaks.

I don't think Bow by itself or any weapon is the "Answer", it's making Builds that for lack of a better words "Compliment / Stack", stats, abilities & damage in your favor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmYlzVPZePw

Toc de Malsvi

This is discussed in detail in this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278564/q-current-state-of-bows/p1

@hedna123b14_ESO has shown a bow/bow build on a NB can pull a bloodspawn benchmark of 37k:

http://imgur.com/rZ8y3Z3

I cannot test it thoroughly as some because I only play console now.

@hedna123b14_ESO argues that bow primary is on par with melee weapons when neither are using Maelstrom/Master weapons. However when using Maelstrom/Master weapons bow is lower.

Bow primary, appears to be affected by class more so than other stamina weapons.

hedna123b14_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

This is discussed in detail in this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278564/q-current-state-of-bows/p1

@hedna123b14_ESO has shown a bow/bow build on a NB can pull a bloodspawn benchmark of 37k:

http://imgur.com/rZ8y3Z3

I cannot test it thoroughly as some because I only play console now.

@hedna123b14_ESO argues that bow primary is on par with melee weapons when neither are using Maelstrom/Master weapons. However when using Maelstrom/Master weapons bow is lower.

Bow primary, appears to be affected by class more so than other stamina weapons.

ZOS made sure that vMA weapons are hard to beat. On my Stam DK I can get 8k more dps by wearing vMA weapons than by using let's say Leki's.

As for bow/bow you can pull decent DPS, but you need equipment and practice. In vMoL DK utility>stamblade, and you can't have 8 dps in melee on the first boss, which was the primary reason for making a bow/bow build. I am still short a vDSA bow, so I can't test dps, but it does extremely well in dungeons. Will be running vDSA soon to try to get my bow.

SirAndy

Respec for AOE, slot:
Endless Hail, Poison Injection, Acid Spray, Razor Caltrops, Vigor

and watch the group mobs melt away right in front of you ...


PS: As a Stamblade, i need vigor to keep myself healthy.

Anti_Virus

No, a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

hedna123b14_ESO

Anti_Virus wrote: »

No a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

I disagree...

Stannum

So about bows for PvE in dungeons. DW buids usually make better DPS but when you do not need doing lots of runing and evasion. I.g. While i run vWGT i use 2h/DW or DW/DW build until inhibitor, then i switch to 2H/bow and have more DPS when using DW (as i have no need to run a lot or keep out of boss on blue fire stage (for inhibitor) or runnung of lightning walls (for kena)). And bow is very good with full kena set as you can allways spam light attacks which are stamina free and hit hard under overkill while you keep bow dots on (injection, asid spray and barrage). So when boss mechanics does not lets you to stay at melee and use rotation bow is more preferable.

Anti_Virus

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

No a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

I disagree...

Care to elaborate? Oh and I forgot to mention that bow primary builds will be useless in dueling/ battle grounds as opposed to 2h/bow builds where 2h is the main weapon and bow is support.

If you can show me a bow dueling/1vX build I would love to see it. I've tried everything to make it work yet its not viable

Gargath

Arora wrote: »

So, I decided to take a break from duel wield and play around with bow, I was really liking the combo, soloing was easier then ever. Walked into a dungeon and I suck. Is it possible to build a bow build that is capable of actually doing something in a dungeon

I successfully use a build with bow and claymore on my stamina sorcerer with pet, bound armaments, and medium armor. I love this build and love using bow with 2H alternately. Yesterday was doing spindleclutch normal dungeon in a 4 dps group and we did it quite easily even with me and another bow low lvl player. On bow I use only the 2 aoe abilities - Endless Hail and Bombard to root - but then every mobs rush at me, which is a bit scary. So I swap to Claymore, hit Rally, Hurricane for aoe (from Sorc skills) and run around criting everything from farthest distance with Crit Rush.
I have 5 pcs. Hunding's Rage with 5 pcs. Viper's Sting, all armor Purple and weapons Gold and Gold crafted poison glyphs, my damage with 2H varies from 20k to 33,5k on single Crit Rush - enough damage for a single person . Here's an example of my highest dmg so far with random werewolf - the creature having 32k initial health is killed in single ability use.
The problem is the bow which makes huge aggro immediately - mobs must feel I have it on bar because they rush at me so fast. After switching to 2H they turn direction to others too, even when my Endless Hail still does damage, so it's wise to start with bow and then quickly swap to second bar .

hedna123b14_ESO

Anti_Virus wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

No a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

I disagree...

Care to elaborate? Oh and I forgot to mention that bow primary builds will be useless in dueling/ battle grounds as opposed to 2h/bow builds where 2h is the main weapon and bow is support.

If you can show me a bow dueling/1vX build I would love to see it. I've tried everything to make it work yet its not viable

Oh PvP wise I have no idea, but PvE wise you can definitely pull competitive DPS.

Vythri

DaMastodon wrote: »

What about endless hail and bombard spam? Bombard roots them while hail nukes them. And poison injection plus snipe should be good for boss fights.

Bombard spam is a thing of the past. Root only happens one time if you spam it... or if anybody else already has a root/slow of some kind on the target.

Autolycus

Unfortunately, bow was left in the dust with stam updates in DB. The builds that were pulling 30-32k self-buffed parses are still pulling 30-32k self-buffed parses. It really depends on how you look at it. To my knowledge, there was no "eye opener" set combination for archers in either of the last two updates, as there has been with other builds.

The optimistic perspective notes that half of the builds in the game are hitting the same parses, with magicka parses in the 30-35k range in most cases. That's not bad, and is enough damage to carry one's own weight in all veteran dungeons, normal trials, and veteran non-hardmode trials. It is my belief that this is also viable for hardmode trials, but that is subject to debate, and I'm sure someone will attempt to debate me on that concept.

The realistic perspective notes that all melee builds are pulling between 35k-45k, with some builds hitting as high as 50k on certain trial bosses with less punishing mechanics. Considering bow is the only stam build not capable of falling into this range (as far as I know), it would be somewhat reasonable to recognize this disparity. However, if one wishes to play this card, one should also consider the inherent survivability advantage of being ranged, as is the case with most casters, save for magDKs and the occasional magblade, may (or may not) be worth the trade-off in damage potential. There are other things to consider too, such as Minor Fracture from Focused Aim, the potential of awarding Minor buffs through class passives to party members at range, as well as certain advantages of running gear like Morag Tong on a ranged character vs. melee. Given the number of additional factors at play here and the impact to the group on the whole, I will forego a pessimistic outlook on this concept, and note that in many groups it may pay off very well to have at least one archer, but ofc will vary with group makeup.

Edit: I would add one final thought to this. The parses I quoted for archers are somewhat dated and do not account for group buffs in any way. Those numbers are strictly based upon self-buffed dps tests. Just as a caster build may pull 30k self-buffed on BS and then skyrocket to 35-40k in a trial setting with ample group buffs running, the same may be true for an archer. It's simply one factor to consider. I don't personally believe that 30-35k is a representation of poor dps at all. What matters is that the numbers fall into a reasonably acceptable range, with respect to dps checks in a practical setting, and their ability to recognize/react to mechanics. Every group will need a diversified composition, and I can't fathom a reason to exclude a well-geared archer from that. Were you to bring an archer to my competitive trials runs, I would generally allow anything 20k+ for normal trials, and depending on the composition of the rest of the group, as low as 25k+ for veteran trials. Hardmode versions come with stricter constraints, and it's not my opinion that prevents one from doing that. They really are that tough.

Vythri

Cronopoly wrote: »

I think Zen has from their perspective tried to present a somewhat balanced combat narrative with Bow. Could you imagine if Bow abilities had more more bonus damage, other than the already strong Snipe?

Stamina toons already get Extremely high Melee range Burst. If Bow was given more of a damage boost over what it already has, a 2H /Bow build would have the best of both worlds. That said, Many think that's already the case.

Now I do see very decently geared Bow user specs around where damage can be high by using all of the abilities available to you. I had been playing around with a Bow spec @Alcast described on his YT channel. It's PVP centric but you can easily tailor it's strengths to PVE with some sustain tweaks.

I don't think Bow by itself or any weapon is the "Answer", it's making Builds that for lack of a better words "Compliment / Stack", stats, abilities & damage in your favor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmYlzVPZePw

I'm not entirely sure the issue with Bow is damage based. Sure there could be some tweaks to make the damage better without making it OP, but the utility aspects are what leave it lacking.


The DoT portion of Poison Injection is what gives the execute... except if you weave with it, the DoT never goes off because it gets continuously reapplied so you never actually get the execute part of the skill to go off. Change the execute to go on the upfront damage, and maybe change the % modifier around a bit to balance it. It's already *** up enough that melee stam users get all of the benefit of using a bow allowing them to pre DoT execute a target, then can bar swap to do all of their better damage skills and have access to a better/2nd execute. The execute should benefit the guy who's actually using the bow.

Scatter Shot and it's morphs are 10m. That's an absolute joke. How many other ranged stuns are in this game with 28m? How about gap closers at 22m (can't remember if that's 100% accurate)? You're telling me that as a bow user, I can't have a ranged stun to allow me to even take advantage of one of my key passives (Long Shots)? Terrible design decision.

Endless Hail was made physical damage and had it's DoT part taken away? Why? It use to to be fire, why not make it poison, like pretty much every other skill in the bow tree?

Bombard had it's root taken away effectively. Why? Sorcs can endlessly root you still. DK's can endlessly root you still. Why can't Bombard. Now it only roots somebody one time (if that), and then never again. What's even the point of the root in the first place at this point? I agree that perma-rooting shouldn't be a thing, but can't we think of a better way to have this skill function then?

Snipe's (and it's morphs) flight time is ridiculously too long, and has an audio cue before it even hits you that just screams "DODGE ROLL NOW!!!" Why not do 4 things with this skill.
1. Reduce the flight time. Hell, just normalize it even. Make it the same flight time on every cast. Not distance based.
2. Get rid of the audio cue.
3. Reduce the cast time.
4. Reduce the damage.

Change the Long Shots passive to something that actually makes sense with all of the gap closers in this game. A bow user will never be able to stay at range past the initial few attacks, so that passive is virtually useless. Keep the ranged part of it, but add something that benefits the bow user when somebody inevitably gap closes you over and over again.

Finally make it so the Hawk Eye passive buffs all stamina based attacks while you have a bow equipped. Not just bow attacks and bow skills.

Of course, some people hate the idea of Bows getting a buff of any kind, and there are far too few of us for our voices to actually be heard, so I'm probably spinning my wheels here.

kadar

Anti_Virus wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

No a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

I disagree...

Care to elaborate? Oh and I forgot to mention that bow primary builds will be useless in dueling/ battle grounds as opposed to 2h/bow builds where 2h is the main weapon and bow is support.

If you can show me a bow dueling/1vX build I would love to see it. I've tried everything to make it work yet its not viable

This thread is about PVE and dungeon DPS, not about Dueling... Even in the case of Dueling/PVP Bow main bar is viable. A melee main weapon with bow as support is stronger, but that doesn't change the fact that a Bow main weapon is viable. For example, I kill Melee DPS in open 1v1s on my hardly optimized Bow user all the time. Sure, I could kill em faster with a 2H setup, but that's not the point.

Anyway...

Arora wrote: »

So, I decided to take a break from duel wield and play around with bow, I was really liking the combo, soloing was easier then ever. Walked into a dungeon and I suck. Is it possible to build a bow build that is capable of actually doing something in a dungeon

To answer your question: Yes. Drop Endless Hail, Caltrops (if you have it), Poison injection, and spam Arrow Spray (for AOE) or Snipe (single target). Make sure to keep your light attack weave going for the stacking Damage passive. My extremely poorly geared PVP-centric NB can pull ~18-20K DPS with a Bow/Bow setup.

ADarklore

Vythri wrote: »

DaMastodon wrote: »

What about endless hail and bombard spam? Bombard roots them while hail nukes them. And poison injection plus snipe should be good for boss fights.

Bombard spam is a thing of the past. Root only happens one time if you spam it... or if anybody else already has a root/slow of some kind on the target.

You beat me to it... I was going to add the same exact comment. As soon as they nerfed Bombard, I switched over to Acid Spray.

Ghettokid

Its never pointless if you like it.

Anti_Virus

The_Outsider wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

No a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

I disagree...

Care to elaborate? Oh and I forgot to mention that bow primary builds will be useless in dueling/ battle grounds as opposed to 2h/bow builds where 2h is the main weapon and bow is support.

If you can show me a bow dueling/1vX build I would love to see it. I've tried everything to make it work yet its not viable

This thread is about PVE and dungeon DPS, not about Dueling... Even in the case of Dueling/PVP Bow main baris viable. A melee main weapon with bow as support is stronger, but that doesn't change the fact that a Bow main weapon is viable. For example, I kill Melee DPS in open 1v1s on my hardly optimized Bow user all the time. Sure, I could kill em faster with a 2H setup, but that's not the point.

Although the OP talked specifically about PVE bow is used in both PVE amd PVP and if the OP ever wanted to carry over a bow build for PVP he would have a tough time just like in PVE.

1. A bow build isn't viable in dueling at all. Not with the stam melee meta of gap close spam bows main dps skill is snipe which has numerous counters and shouldn't ever be a problem to people

2. If you're talking about ganking melee builds then yes bow is excellent at it but in open combat 1v1 I highly doubt that you beat a melee build than can permanently be glued to your face. Again I think you're lying but I wasn't there to see it so its just your word.

As for the OP don't bother with a bow build as long as Wrobel is the combat designer ranged builds( especially bow builds) will continue to pale in comparison to melee builds.

Not only are you punished with low dmg, but you have low survivability as well, lack of a ranged ultimate and lack of CC and utility skills you're best off witha differntt game if you want the playstyle.

Anti_Virus

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

No a bow primary build is not viable. Zos wants the bow to be a secondary support weapon it does enough dps to get the job done in PVE but other weapons are far supperior.

In PVP since this game is balanced around AvA bow is only useful for ganking. Once Dueling and small scale arrive bow will be completely useless in that particular fight.

I disagree...

Care to elaborate? Oh and I forgot to mention that bow primary builds will be useless in dueling/ battle grounds as opposed to 2h/bow builds where 2h is the main weapon and bow is support.

If you can show me a bow dueling/1vX build I would love to see it. I've tried everything to make it work yet its not viable

Oh PvP wise I have no idea, but PvE wise you can definitely pull competitive DPS.

I never disagreed with you I just stated that melee builds can pull more dps with ease compared to a bow build.

Vythri

Let's just hope the new Bow ultimate doesn't suck.

WhoThenNow7

Do you ever see a lone bowman in combat? Bows were always utility- meant to be with a group/team. If I were to make a bow build, I wouldn't expect to be able to solo EVERYTHING, but you could probably get by most PVE things.. I bet a pure bow build with a high crit would be amazing and fun for group play PvP!

Vythri

WhoThenNow7 wrote: »

Do you ever see a lone bowman in combat? Bows were always utility- meant to be with a group/team. If I were to make a bow build, I wouldn't expect to be able to solo EVERYTHING, but you could probably get by most PVE things.. I bet a pure bow build with a high crit would be amazing and fun for group play PvP!

I haven't read anybody asking to solo "everything" with a bow. As for a high crit build in PvP... yeah that doesn't work to put it mildly.

I think I would be fine as a bow user if I could simply get 2 things though.
1. A better spammable move to weave than Snipe (and it's morphs), because of it's cast time, or Poison Injection, because of the issues with the execute part of the skill as I stated above.
2. Increased range on Scatter Shot (and it's morphs), or a different ranged CC that's 22-28m to combat the gap closing spammers which will provide me some survivability.

I don't think that's too much to ask for.

hedna123b14_ESO

Vythri wrote: »

WhoThenNow7 wrote: »

Do you ever see a lone bowman in combat? Bows were always utility- meant to be with a group/team. If I were to make a bow build, I wouldn't expect to be able to solo EVERYTHING, but you could probably get by most PVE things.. I bet a pure bow build with a high crit would be amazing and fun for group play PvP!

I haven't read anybody asking to solo "everything" with a bow. As for a high crit build in PvP... yeah that doesn't work to put it mildly.

I think I would be fine as a bow user if I could simply get 2 things though.
1. A better spammable move to weave than Snipe (and it's morphs), because of it's cast time, or Poison Injection, because of the issues with the execute part of the skill as I stated above.
2. Increased range on Scatter Shot (and it's morphs), or a different ranged CC that's 22-28m to combat the gap closing spammers which will provide me some survivability.

I don't think that's too much to ask for.

Make Snipe instacast
EDIT: but make the animation as long as Hail