BigES wrote: »

Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming and crafting bliss.

Well, if that happened (upper 10% players leaving the game) we would have vMSA nerfed, MSA weapons dropping in normal mode, or even purchasable from an NPC vendor.
Would I mind that ? No, I'd love it.
Would YOU mind that ? I bet you would.
Am I asking for that ? No.
Are you asking for the exact equivalent ? Yes.

"Make gold tempers available from NPC vendors at reasonable (aka "low") prices is the exact same thing as asking "nerf vMSA, we need the weapons".

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

Exactly. If you're against my idea, then you should be vehemently against the Tel Var merchant who is now giving alchemy materials. That's a price ceiling. You should be against the Tel Var merchant who sells Hakeijos. That's a price ceiling. Its the exact same principle.

I wasn't all that happy about it, but also not vehemently against it. The difference being that goldening an item is a one-time and not-mandatory investment that people can make or not make, invest time for or not, whereas potions are consumables which you need continously for any serious combat related activity. I could feel the pain of dungeoners and raiders and I understand and support ZOS decision in that regard. But gold tempers ? No. They're just a bonus, if you want it work for it, either by farming or by paying.

I disagree with the statement somewhere in the posts above that ESO markets are monopolistic and unregulated. They're not monopolistic because the production units (nodes, mobs, etc. ) are freely accessible to all - all it requires is to put in the work/time. That's why there's no monopoly.
They're not unregulated either because there's a higher authority (ZOS) that sets up drop rates (i.e. the quantity of work required for obtaining 1 product) as they see fit and adjust them all the time, and that also defines bottom/ceiling prices for many, many goods via NPC merchants.

I would strongly disagree with gold tempers being available for TV stones because TV are only obtainable via combat and I think non-combat activities are appreciated by many players and should remain profitable. If they want to "untighten" the market a bit they should rather raise the drop rates (which they did already significantly with One Tamriel, which already helped lowering the prices a bit - but not as much as it should have, due to crafting bags reducing the need to sell items at lower prices due to space necessity).

Stopnaggin wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?

Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

That person's actions could be solved by farming their own mats. His time is no more important than mine. Everything has a price, as a master crafter, I have to farm motifs or buy them, this costs me gold. I'm not a pvp guy so I either have to pay for akvari motifs, or go farm ap. I choose to spend gold to get them. I don't pissed about the prices, I only buy when I see a value in said product.

Not everyone selling tempers are manipulating the market. When I sell I look at market prices and usually stay under them. If people don't like the prices they do not have to pay for them, they can farm for themselves and see how the other half lives.

Don't remember seeing the word monopoly. Moving on...

Again a question of time and utility (happiness). Sure, we could all do what you do. I farmed ore this entire Orsinium event that I wasn't in Maelstrom. I hated it. It horrible and in no way rewarding to me. In fact, lets all just farm, trade, and sell. Wait - that is causing several people to leave the game who want to play competitively. Because farming (at unchecked, and unbalanced extreme levels) not enjoyable to them, and the time invested is not balanced. Even with double resource nodes it not worth it. No worries - we'll just save the time and buy the mats from people like you who enjoy it, so we can move on to other content we enjoy. Wait, what? Tempers are not reasonably priced?

Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming and crafting bliss.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

This argument enfuriates me. I love PVP and haven't set foot in Cyrodiil in weeks. Why? Because I saw the opportunity ZOS was giving me with the Wrothgar event and decided to just grind materials. Now I can freely go back to plundering in Cyrodiil with a million gold and millions more in goods in my bank. Meanwhile you chose to do something "fun" and are now complaining that your fun is getting infringed upon.

Here is the truth: if you want to have the most fun in an MMO long term then you have to nut up on occasion and do boring stuff for a short while. If you don't then pay the people who did.

Funny how median prices for tempers and dreugh wax didn't change AT ALL even though the wrothgar event effectively doubled the drop rate for these materials. Hmmm..... facts....

"Facts"

Yeah, sure. Here is a real fact. I've been selling Wax and Rosin for 9k each. Someone else has been buying them. I don't care who. I need the alloys long term so I hoard them. If you were at the right place at the right time you could have spent 9k on an 11 or 12k item. It seems that's too much for you though. The prices have dropped, but you haven't noticed because you're clearly not giving the effort in looking for them that others are.

EDIT: It seems to have quoted the wrong person. Sorry for any confusion.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

DRX just spoke to the problem as well and confessed to manipulating the market. Its not illegal by any means, but the proof has presented itself. Not slamming him or casting character aspersions, he took advantage of an opportunity. Doesn't mean he/she is wrong, but also does not mean that there isn't a problem.

DRX merely said prices were high and he was following that trend because people are ready to pay those prices. No more, no less.
He may feel guilty for charging those market prices, but that's another issue.
Nowhere is there any mention of market manipulation. Rather the regret that it was impossible to manipulate them - if it were, he would perhaps try and put the prices down.
People still seem to have problems with the fact that prices are not determine by either sellers nor buyers, but by the market. The level at which sellers and buyers can agree upon. There's nothing you can do to influence that - unless you have a very, very, very large market share - which is impossible on such widely and freely available items like in ESO.

Incorrect. Again there are two sides to the economic equation. You can ignore the supply side all you want, but it doesn't change how the equation works. When the monetary supply is held by a disproportionately small number of people, those people can quite easily control the supply side of the equation. And do. I'm a member of two trading guilds, each with millions and millions of gold in the bank. Officers will regularly take that money out, and go buy gold mats and other high value items to take them out of the marketplace. Its speculative investing, which is quite profitable both in the game and in real life. They then set the market price in the major locations, and work with other guilds to do so. They also buy trader slots and leave them empty. This controls every aspect of the market.

Can people go farm items themselves? Sure. But that requires a time investment that some may not have. As more and more gold enters this game and isn't dispersed through sinks, inflation rapidly rises. The rich get richer, because they were able to diversify their investments. Some people just don't have those options. Creating a tel var or other merchant also creates a sink that takes money out of the economy and acts as a meter on inflation. Something your government does every day.

You're wasting your breathe trying to explain 101 economics to this guy when he thinks ample crafting bag space is why multi-millionaires hold onto their gold materials, lol.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

Exactly. If you're against my idea, then you should be vehemently against the Tel Var merchant who is now giving alchemy materials. That's a price ceiling. You should be against the Tel Var merchant who sells Hakeijos. That's a price ceiling. Its the exact same principle.

I wasn't all that happy about it, but also not vehemently against it. The difference being that goldening an item is a one-time and not-mandatory investment that people can make or not make, invest time for or not, whereas potions are consumables which you need continously for any serious combat related activity. I could feel the pain of dungeoners and raiders and I understand and support ZOS decision in that regard. But gold tempers ? No. They're just a bonus, if you want it work for it, either by farming or by paying.

I disagree with the statement somewhere in the posts above that ESO markets are monopolistic and unregulated. They're not monopolistic because the production units (nodes, mobs, etc. ) are freely accessible to all - all it requires is to put in the work/time. That's why there's no monopoly.
They're not unregulated either because there's a higher authority (ZOS) that sets up drop rates (i.e. the quantity of work required for obtaining 1 product) as they see fit and adjust them all the time, and that also defines bottom/ceiling prices for many, many goods via NPC merchants.

I would strongly disagree with gold tempers being available for TV stones because TV are only obtainable via combat and I think non-combat activities are appreciated by many players and should remain profitable. If they want to "untighten" the market a bit they should rather raise the drop rates (which they did already significantly with One Tamriel, which already helped lowering the prices a bit - but not as much as it should have, due to crafting bags reducing the need to sell items at lower prices due to space necessity).

Stopnaggin wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?

Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

That person's actions could be solved by farming their own mats. His time is no more important than mine. Everything has a price, as a master crafter, I have to farm motifs or buy them, this costs me gold. I'm not a pvp guy so I either have to pay for akvari motifs, or go farm ap. I choose to spend gold to get them. I don't pissed about the prices, I only buy when I see a value in said product.

Not everyone selling tempers are manipulating the market. When I sell I look at market prices and usually stay under them. If people don't like the prices they do not have to pay for them, they can farm for themselves and see how the other half lives.

Don't remember seeing the word monopoly. Moving on...

Again a question of time and utility (happiness). Sure, we could all do what you do. I farmed ore this entire Orsinium event that I wasn't in Maelstrom. I hated it. It horrible and in no way rewarding to me. In fact, lets all just farm, trade, and sell. Wait - that is causing several people to leave the game who want to play competitively. Because farming (at unchecked, and unbalanced extreme levels) not enjoyable to them, and the time invested is not balanced. Even with double resource nodes it not worth it. No worries - we'll just save the time and buy the mats from people like you who enjoy it, so we can move on to other content we enjoy. Wait, what? Tempers are not reasonably priced?

Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming and crafting bliss.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

This argument enfuriates me. I love PVP and haven't set foot in Cyrodiil in weeks. Why? Because I saw the opportunity ZOS was giving me with the Wrothgar event and decided to just grind materials. Now I can freely go back to plundering in Cyrodiil with a million gold and millions more in goods in my bank. Meanwhile you chose to do something "fun" and are now complaining that your fun is getting infringed upon.

Here is the truth: if you want to have the most fun in an MMO long term then you have to nut up on occasion and do boring stuff for a short while. If you don't then pay the people who did.

Funny how median prices for tempers and dreugh wax didn't change AT ALL even though the wrothgar event effectively doubled the drop rate for these materials. Hmmm..... facts....

"Facts"

Yeah, sure. Here is a real fact. I've been selling Wax and Rosin for 9k each. Someone else has been buying them. I don't care who. I need the alloys long term so I hoard them. If you were at the right place at the right time you could have spent 9k on an 11 or 12k item. It seems that's too much for you though. The prices have dropped, but you haven't noticed because you're clearly not giving the effort in looking for them that others are.

Anecdotal accounts, verifiable or not, and personal experience, verifiable or not, do not and cannot serve as a concrete data series and should not be assumed to account for the typical experience of the population as a whole.

Stopnaggin wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Again a question of time and utility (happiness). Sure, we could all do what you do. I farmed ore this entire Orsinium event that I wasn't in Maelstrom. I hated it. It horrible and in no way rewarding to me. In fact, lets all just farm, trade, and sell. Wait - that is causing several people to leave the game who want to play competitively. Because farming (at unchecked, and unbalanced extreme levels) not enjoyable to them, and the time invested is not balanced. Even with double resource nodes it not worth it. No worries - we'll just save the time and buy the mats from people like you who enjoy it, so we can move on to other content we enjoy. Wait, what? Tempers are not reasonably priced?

Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming

Maybe the 1000s of farmer will leave and you would have to farm yourself. It goes both ways. Again I ask, what would you consider a reasonable price? You admit you don't like it, so in reality what is it worth to you? So you don't have to do the tedious work. What actual price is reasonable? I keep hearing cap it, but what is that cap. Is it high enough for me to continue to farm and be profitable? Or is it low enough to make me stop farming? Where is that fine line?

But wait, people are leaving because they can't be competitive without getting gold gear. So someone who grinds end over end for gear leaves because they would have to grind to upgrade that gear? Oh my I don't even know where to start with that one.

There isn't a single point. Its a ever changing metric based on data such as the monetary base, supply, and barriers to acquisition. You set point, evaluate the performance in terms of these metrics, and adjust as needed. Your central bank and federal reserve do this every single day.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

This argument enfuriates me. I love PVP and haven't set foot in Cyrodiil in weeks. Why? Because I saw the opportunity ZOS was giving me with the Wrothgar event and decided to just grind materials. Now I can freely go back to plundering in Cyrodiil with a million gold and millions more in goods in my bank. Meanwhile you chose to do something "fun" and are now complaining that your fun is getting infringed upon.

Here is the truth: if you want to have the most fun in an MMO long term then you have to nut up on occasion and do boring stuff for a short while. If you don't then pay the people who did.

Ah, what a fantastic red herring you have thrown out there. Lets cast character aspersions to distract from the central argument. You have no idea how much time OP or anyone else spent farming. OP himself says this is less about a problem he has and more about pointing to an obvious area for improvement. OP likely spent 100% of his time farming VMA and Wrothgar, as did several others. Does that make the point invalid? Not at all.

DRX just spoke to the problem as well and confessed to manipulating the market. Its not illegal by any means, but the proof has presented itself. Not slamming him or casting character aspersions, he took advantage of an opportunity. Doesn't mean he/she is wrong, but also does not mean that there isn't a problem.

There are two sides to the basic economic equation. Its not just demand and its not just supply. There is a relationship there that must exist in a healthy environment for a market to function properly. You can be in the 1% and at the same time acknowledge that there is a fundamental problem. Everything isn't either/or.

Seriously?

Ok, my bad. Maybe he did spend a ton of time farming? Maybe he didn't. You're right, I don't know for sure.

That said, it cannot be argued that ZOS just gave us a multi-week period where someone could have gotten twice the amount of gold tempers as normal. If the OP chose to take advantage of that and still thinks there is an issue then it is what it is what it is.

But let's live in reality now. There is a much higher likelihood that this entire post started because he wanted to upgrade his cool new weapon and then noticed that he doesn't have 160k in his bank so waaaaaaaaaaaa!

BigES wrote: »

You're wasting your breathe trying to explain 101 economics to this guy when he thinks ample crafting bag space is why multi-millionaires hold onto their gold materials, lol.

"This guy" is actually a girl
And if you think the costs and risks involved with warehousing / stocks has no influence on supply and thus on prices, it's you who need 101 economics lessons. In RL, it means blocked capital, risk of depreciation, space, staff to take care of the wares, etc. Stocks cost money.

In ESO, stocks cost SPACE... but only to those, whose space is limited. People with crafting bags can afford to keep thousands and thousands of crafting mats in their inventory and wait until prices are high to sell them.
People without crafting bags cannot afford that and have to get rid of stuff quickly, regardless of the prices.

Of course that has a direct impact on markets.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

This argument enfuriates me. I love PVP and haven't set foot in Cyrodiil in weeks. Why? Because I saw the opportunity ZOS was giving me with the Wrothgar event and decided to just grind materials. Now I can freely go back to plundering in Cyrodiil with a million gold and millions more in goods in my bank. Meanwhile you chose to do something "fun" and are now complaining that your fun is getting infringed upon.

Here is the truth: if you want to have the most fun in an MMO long term then you have to nut up on occasion and do boring stuff for a short while. If you don't then pay the people who did.

Ah, what a fantastic red herring you have thrown out there. Lets cast character aspersions to distract from the central argument. You have no idea how much time OP or anyone else spent farming. OP himself says this is less about a problem he has and more about pointing to an obvious area for improvement. OP likely spent 100% of his time farming VMA and Wrothgar, as did several others. Does that make the point invalid? Not at all.

DRX just spoke to the problem as well and confessed to manipulating the market. Its not illegal by any means, but the proof has presented itself. Not slamming him or casting character aspersions, he took advantage of an opportunity. Doesn't mean he/she is wrong, but also does not mean that there isn't a problem.

There are two sides to the basic economic equation. Its not just demand and its not just supply. There is a relationship there that must exist in a healthy environment for a market to function properly. You can be in the 1% and at the same time acknowledge that there is a fundamental problem. Everything isn't either/or.

Seriously?

Ok, my bad. Maybe he did spend a ton of time farming? Maybe he didn't. You're right, I don't know for sure.

That said, it cannot be argued that ZOS just gave us a multi-week period where someone could have gotten twice the amount of gold tempers as normal. If the OP chose to take advantage of that and still thinks there is an issue then it is what it is what it is.

But let's live in reality now. There is a much higher likelihood that this entire post started because he wanted to upgrade his cool new weapon and then noticed that he doesn't have 160k in his bank so waaaaaaaaaaaa!

Sure. And lets take that attitude with every problem everywhere and assume the worst about the person whilst ignoring the fundamental argument they are making. Geeze wouldn't that be a productive world where lots of things get done and compromise is achieved.

You say the OP is crying because he didn't get what he wanted. I say the OP actually did farm like crazy and has plenty of mats, and through intelligence noticed that there seems to be some signs of a market that isn't performing as well as it should. Neither OPINION changes the fundamental argument being made and such attitudes are counter-productive to having a reasoned discussion.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

You're wasting your breathe trying to explain 101 economics to this guy when he thinks ample crafting bag space is why multi-millionaires hold onto their gold materials, lol.

"This guy" is actually a girl
And if you think the costs and risks involved with warehousing / stocks has no influence on supply and thus on prices, it's you who need 101 economics lessons. In RL, it means blocked capital, risk of depreciation, space, staff to take care of the wares, etc. Stocks cost money.

In ESO, stocks cost SPACE... but only to those, whose space is limited. People with crafting bags can afford to keep thousands and thousands of crafting mats in their inventory and wait until prices are high to sell them.
People without crafting bags cannot afford that and have to get rid of stuff quickly, regardless of the prices.

Of course that has a direct impact on markets.

Yes, in the real world where sufficient regulations and scarcity exists to create such situations. ESO is not the real world and lacks these market controls. There are no penalties to hoarding all the mats, because you have unlimited space and the monetary base is sufficiently large and concentrated so that people can freely control such things with no penalty. I'm failing to understand your argument as to why that doesn't exacerbate a correctable problem. Maybe I just missed a point you made regarding that. But I do agree that ZOS implemented things like the crafting bag without looking at how it would impact markets, and as such a vendor would serve to mitigate against such an impact.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

Exactly. If you're against my idea, then you should be vehemently against the Tel Var merchant who is now giving alchemy materials. That's a price ceiling. You should be against the Tel Var merchant who sells Hakeijos. That's a price ceiling. Its the exact same principle.

I wasn't all that happy about it, but also not vehemently against it. The difference being that goldening an item is a one-time and not-mandatory investment that people can make or not make, invest time for or not, whereas potions are consumables which you need continously for any serious combat related activity. I could feel the pain of dungeoners and raiders and I understand and support ZOS decision in that regard. But gold tempers ? No. They're just a bonus, if you want it work for it, either by farming or by paying.

I disagree with the statement somewhere in the posts above that ESO markets are monopolistic and unregulated. They're not monopolistic because the production units (nodes, mobs, etc. ) are freely accessible to all - all it requires is to put in the work/time. That's why there's no monopoly.
They're not unregulated either because there's a higher authority (ZOS) that sets up drop rates (i.e. the quantity of work required for obtaining 1 product) as they see fit and adjust them all the time, and that also defines bottom/ceiling prices for many, many goods via NPC merchants.

I would strongly disagree with gold tempers being available for TV stones because TV are only obtainable via combat and I think non-combat activities are appreciated by many players and should remain profitable. If they want to "untighten" the market a bit they should rather raise the drop rates (which they did already significantly with One Tamriel, which already helped lowering the prices a bit - but not as much as it should have, due to crafting bags reducing the need to sell items at lower prices due to space necessity).

Stopnaggin wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

ZOS already went a long way to help you (at our detriment) by providing potency runes, hakeijos, alchemy materials available from NPC merchants. The drop rate of gold tempers via crafting writs also was also significantly increased. Yet you're still not happy and want more ?

Your base argument is why should your desired activity be negatively impacted to benefit another's desired activity. Fair enough. But likewise why should that person's activities be throttled by your actions? If you can afford to farm and manipulate the market and find that fun, then good for you. But it shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of another. Placing an artificial price cap is THE compromise to this, i.e. a tel var merchant. You can still farm and make your money off of people who cannot afford to farm or have no desire to participate in this secondary market, while others are free to farm tel var to improve their gear. Everyone wins.

That person's actions could be solved by farming their own mats. His time is no more important than mine. Everything has a price, as a master crafter, I have to farm motifs or buy them, this costs me gold. I'm not a pvp guy so I either have to pay for akvari motifs, or go farm ap. I choose to spend gold to get them. I don't pissed about the prices, I only buy when I see a value in said product.

Not everyone selling tempers are manipulating the market. When I sell I look at market prices and usually stay under them. If people don't like the prices they do not have to pay for them, they can farm for themselves and see how the other half lives.

Don't remember seeing the word monopoly. Moving on...

Again a question of time and utility (happiness). Sure, we could all do what you do. I farmed ore this entire Orsinium event that I wasn't in Maelstrom. I hated it. It horrible and in no way rewarding to me. In fact, lets all just farm, trade, and sell. Wait - that is causing several people to leave the game who want to play competitively. Because farming (at unchecked, and unbalanced extreme levels) not enjoyable to them, and the time invested is not balanced. Even with double resource nodes it not worth it. No worries - we'll just save the time and buy the mats from people like you who enjoy it, so we can move on to other content we enjoy. Wait, what? Tempers are not reasonably priced?

Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming and crafting bliss.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

Clearly you've never attempted to farm dreugh wax in an area dominated by macro-enabled Chinese robot pet sorcs.

Oddly enough, no. Doesn't prevent me from having over 150+ of them Dreugh Waxes in my crafting bag, all my gear golden, helped most of my guildies with goldening their stuff, all while selling tons of them and never buying one.
Which in turns means that I have done a lot of crafting writs and also farmed and refined a lot of raw mats without ever meeting any of those "robots". They simply aren't there. And if they are, just go farm somewhere else. Don't tell me they're everywhere, because they're not.

Prices are high because people are ready to pay that much. The answer to (too) high prices is either to lower the demand or to raise the supply, both of which you can contribute to by farming your own materials.

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

This argument enfuriates me. I love PVP and haven't set foot in Cyrodiil in weeks. Why? Because I saw the opportunity ZOS was giving me with the Wrothgar event and decided to just grind materials. Now I can freely go back to plundering in Cyrodiil with a million gold and millions more in goods in my bank. Meanwhile you chose to do something "fun" and are now complaining that your fun is getting infringed upon.

Here is the truth: if you want to have the most fun in an MMO long term then you have to nut up on occasion and do boring stuff for a short while. If you don't then pay the people who did.

Funny how median prices for tempers and dreugh wax didn't change AT ALL even though the wrothgar event effectively doubled the drop rate for these materials. Hmmm..... facts....

"Facts"

Yeah, sure. Here is a real fact. I've been selling Wax and Rosin for 9k each. Someone else has been buying them. I don't care who. I need the alloys long term so I hoard them. If you were at the right place at the right time you could have spent 9k on an 11 or 12k item. It seems that's too much for you though. The prices have dropped, but you haven't noticed because you're clearly not giving the effort in looking for them that others are.

Anecdotal accounts, verifiable or not, and personal experience, verifiable or not, do not and cannot serve as a concrete data series and should not be assumed to account for the typical experience of the population as a whole.

I know this. A sample size of 1 is not a good argument.

Now please tell me your wise experiences or continue to dismiss any counter point at all as fallacy.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Again a question of time and utility (happiness). Sure, we could all do what you do. I farmed ore this entire Orsinium event that I wasn't in Maelstrom. I hated it. It horrible and in no way rewarding to me. In fact, lets all just farm, trade, and sell. Wait - that is causing several people to leave the game who want to play competitively. Because farming (at unchecked, and unbalanced extreme levels) not enjoyable to them, and the time invested is not balanced. Even with double resource nodes it not worth it. No worries - we'll just save the time and buy the mats from people like you who enjoy it, so we can move on to other content we enjoy. Wait, what? Tempers are not reasonably priced?

Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming

Maybe the 1000s of farmer will leave and you would have to farm yourself. It goes both ways. Again I ask, what would you consider a reasonable price? You admit you don't like it, so in reality what is it worth to you? So you don't have to do the tedious work. What actual price is reasonable? I keep hearing cap it, but what is that cap. Is it high enough for me to continue to farm and be profitable? Or is it low enough to make me stop farming? Where is that fine line?

But wait, people are leaving because they can't be competitive without getting gold gear. So someone who grinds end over end for gear leaves because they would have to grind to upgrade that gear? Oh my I don't even know where to start with that one.

There isn't a single point. Its a ever changing metric based on data such as the monetary base, supply, and barriers to acquisition. You set point, evaluate the performance in terms of these metrics, and adjust as needed. Your central bank and federal reserve do this every single day.

And with that how would they cap it? The economy is fluid, so where do they put this cap they everyone is talking about. I'm not one of those that sells mats on traders, I sell when I see ltb in chat. I sell gear in vendors because that has an easier chance of selling and tracking prices. My personal experience is alloy is 20k ea on vendors and about 15k open air, and about the same percentage on wax and rosin. So I'm not sure what the magical number people are looking for.

They can always regulate this with drop percentage, but they would have to keep altering it to suit the economy. I don't see that as viable in a video game.

[/quote]

"Facts"

Yeah, sure. Here is a real fact. I've been selling Wax and Rosin for 9k each. Someone else has been buying them. I don't care who. I need the alloys long term so I hoard them. If you were at the right place at the right time you could have spent 9k on an 11 or 12k item. It seems that's too much for you though. The prices have dropped, but you haven't noticed because you're clearly not giving the effort in looking for them that others are. [/quote]

Anecdotal accounts, verifiable or not, and personal experience, verifiable or not, do not and cannot serve as a concrete data series and should not be assumed to account for the typical experience of the population as a whole. [/quote]

I know this. A sample size of 1 is not a good argument.

Now please tell me your wise experiences or continue to dismiss any counter point at all as fallacy.[/quote]

When the sole basis of the point being made is logical fallacy, then it detracts from the ability to have a reasoned and measured discussion on issues of merit. I do not believe my experiences are representative either. (I don't believe I have ever purchased a gold material). But I do observe trading behaviors within the game, as it is a topic that interests me. The data points that do exist though can be gathered through the main economic engine of this virtual world, which is the guild traders. There will always be outliers of course, but we do have a fairly large sample to observe over time.

The problem was PC transfers, when people started the game with millions of gold, i started with 0 on ps4. These are the same people who are manipulating the market.

That's some bs if you ask me.

BigES wrote: »

You are absolutely all over the place with your comments and its very difficult to rebuttal because there is so much to rebuttal. Its like debating [SNIP] This will probably be my last reply to you because I value diversity of opinion and balance. I equally farm, PvP, do trials, farm, and buy/sell. I have experienced all aspects of this game so its easy to identify deficiencies vs. a one-sided viewpoint.

Facts are... 1) prices are extreme, and time invested to farm and gold-out a reasonable set of gear is not balanced. 2) buying market priced tempers and dreugh wax is not reasonably priced to due to an unchecked gold supply and lack of information transparency (people don't know the true value and it is ambiguous because there is not a searchable item system or a main auction house). 3) A price ceiling - just like what is created with alchemy reagents offered at the TV merchant - would help realistically balance prices and set a price ceiling and target rate (like - I dunno - the real economy). 4) increasing the drop rate only slightly impacts the problem because again, these materials still get bought up by people with ample gold.

[SNIP]
---- correction ----what you wrote aren't facts, just your opinion on them / interpretation of them ---
1) prices aren't "extreme". Prices ARE. Whether they're high, low, too much, etc... is all relative to your financial means and your will to obtain the item in question. It's entirely subjective.
2a) for prices being "not reasonably priced" please refer to point 1).
2b) what do you mean by "unchecked gold supply" ?
2c) yes, an auction house would bring more transparency and "instant movement" - that would make the unbalance you're complaining about 10x more powerful. That's been discussed over and over in hundreds of threads.
3a) To "realistically balanced prices", please refer to point 1)
3b) A price ceiling would be a hard market regulation from ZOS - just as a (non-liberal, or "socialist") government does IRL to ensure basic needs of the population (food, shelter, healthcare) are covered. Such limitations take these product and services simply out of market mechanics. I don't think that would be good nor required for tempers in ESO, because market is a part of the game that keeps a lot of people playing daily, and because even poor players can cater to their own needs by farming themselves.
4a) People with ample gold don't waste their time drying up markets in the entire game. You're free to believe they do, but I don't and I don't have any evidence of that happening.
4b) Even if it happened, an increase in drop rate (UNLESS compensated by an equal increase in demand) would automatically lead to a decrease in price. No matter how rich they are, people CANNOT keep on buying every item produced for an unlimited period of time. That would be counter-productive and lead them to loosing money.


[Edited for inappropriate content]

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

gp1680 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Again a question of time and utility (happiness). Sure, we could all do what you do. I farmed ore this entire Orsinium event that I wasn't in Maelstrom. I hated it. It horrible and in no way rewarding to me. In fact, lets all just farm, trade, and sell. Wait - that is causing several people to leave the game who want to play competitively. Because farming (at unchecked, and unbalanced extreme levels) not enjoyable to them, and the time invested is not balanced. Even with double resource nodes it not worth it. No worries - we'll just save the time and buy the mats from people like you who enjoy it, so we can move on to other content we enjoy. Wait, what? Tempers are not reasonably priced?

Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming

Maybe the 1000s of farmer will leave and you would have to farm yourself. It goes both ways. Again I ask, what would you consider a reasonable price? You admit you don't like it, so in reality what is it worth to you? So you don't have to do the tedious work. What actual price is reasonable? I keep hearing cap it, but what is that cap. Is it high enough for me to continue to farm and be profitable? Or is it low enough to make me stop farming? Where is that fine line?

But wait, people are leaving because they can't be competitive without getting gold gear. So someone who grinds end over end for gear leaves because they would have to grind to upgrade that gear? Oh my I don't even know where to start with that one.

You set a target rate

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Maybe eventually they will all leave the game and you and the 1000 other farmers can live in node farming and crafting bliss.

Well, if that happened (upper 10% players leaving the game) we would have vMSA nerfed, MSA weapons dropping in normal mode, or even purchasable from an NPC vendor.
Would I mind that ? No, I'd love it.
Would YOU mind that ? I bet you would.
Am I asking for that ? No.
Are you asking for the exact equivalent ? Yes.

"Make gold tempers available from NPC vendors at reasonable (aka "low") prices is the exact same thing as asking "nerf vMSA, we need the weapons".

You are absolutely all over the place with your comments and its very difficult to rebuttal because there is so much to rebuttal. Its like debating Trump. This will probably be my last reply to you because I value diversity of opinion and balance. I equally farm, PvP, do trials, farm, and buy/sell. I have experienced all aspects of this game so its easy to identify deficiencies vs. a one-sided viewpoint.

Facts are... 1) prices are extreme, and time invested to farm and gold-out a reasonable set of gear is not balanced. 2) buying market priced tempers and dreugh wax is not reasonably priced to due to an unchecked gold supply and lack of information transparency (people don't know the true value and it is ambiguous because there is not a searchable item system or a main auction house). 3) A price ceiling - just like what is created with alchemy reagents offered at the TV merchant - would help realistically balance prices and set a price ceiling and target rate (like - I dunno - the real economy). 4) increasing the drop rate only slightly impacts the problem because again, these materials still get bought up by people with ample gold.

I understand your points and they are certainly reasonable, but on point #1, my argument would be this. I currently own a Honda, mostly because I can't afford that Acura NSX I've been dreaming of. I'm content with the fact that I won't own a NSX anytime soon because my job and paycheck can't reasonably support it. If I wanted to own that NSX, I'd have to work even harder, longer, and likely multiple jobs or get lucky and hit the lottery. I figure my Honda will suffice for now.

In ESO, if I want gold mats, sharpened Spriggan or Viper weapons, gold jewelry from "Golden", I'm going to have to farm my a** off to get them and/or earn the money to buy them. If I want Maelstrom weapons, I'm going to have to buy blood pressure medication and an ample supply of controllers (cuz I'm breaking them) to get through vMSA. You can't have everything just "handed" to you or the value of certain items lowered just because you want the best of what everyone else has worked hard for.

Your points are valid and I'm sure many agree with you, but I think you'll find a little bit of satisfaction when you "earn" that complete set of gold armor, weapons, and jewelry and you flaunt those shiny new maelstrom weapons that you burned so many hours obtaining.

I agree with you, but you're arguing from the perspective that the OP is wanting something he/she doesn't have. I'm arguing from the perspective of a "casual" who picked up the game on free play weekend or something. We all love this game, its why we are on the forums, and for the game to succeed it needs to grow its base. I'm not arguing that you need to cater specifically to that base, not at all. I'm just arguing that a healthy balance can be struck. 160k gold per piece of equipment doesn't exactly sound reasonable. That's just my opinion though (again from someone who's necessary equipment is gold and has never purchased gold mats). Just thinking objectively.

I love this discussion. Great points. My argument goes back to the car thing then...haha. When I was 16, I was THRILLED to get my first car, which was a 1987 Chrysler Lebaron. I had no idea or expectation at that time that I could ever own an NSX and was, frankly, enamored with my new/old car. I'd use that analogy on the "casual" who joins the game...there is soooooo much to learn about this game starting out and anyone who starts out shouldn't have the ability to immediately have the best stuff right away. The beauty of this game is the complexity and depth to which it will take you and the amount of time and work it takes to achieve the ultimate fighting machine. I'm still learning so much about this game from forum discussions and opinions of players who are far more advanced then me and I've been playing for almost a year now. I think the casual gamer just starting out should "look up" to that shiny new gold armor and learn everything there is to know on how to earn that gold before trying to use it.