Tank: "It's not my job to debuff." Yeah, right...

DoccEff · November 2016

I name an issue, criticise it precisely. Then, people who didn't even read or understand my complete statement, knowing hardly anything about the topic, take passages out of context and tell me that in fact I am the problem.
Todays society in a nutshell

code65536 · November 2016

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

A group of randoms for the pledge is not the appropriate time or place to give unsolicited lectures to someone on how to play the game, if the error that they are making is not the kind of error that's preventing you from progressing. Now, if they're doing something that's causing you to wipe, like failure to follow mechanics for that fight, then a conversation would be warranted, but this is not such a case. You can ask the tank to please run Pierce, but if they don't want to, why press the matter? So the OP is wrong when it comes to the matter of common-sense etiquette.

idk · November 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.

1. Major Fracture and Breach a 5,2k, not 8000
2. Destruction staff passives are ONLY for destro staff abilities

Nevertheless is any tank not running these debufs in pve completely useless.

Again, we are talking about Fungal 2. His important is the debuff for such short boss fights.

We aren't talking about a leaderboard run in a vet trial. Most groups do not have those debuffs on the mage in vAA. Well, I expext most do not.

Runs · November 2016

Perhaps when he said "It's not my job..." there could have been a nicer reply than "It is your job". I'm not sure where his attitude came from, cause it appears he already had one... But something along the lines of "I'm not trying to say it's your job, but we could really use the help that debuff brings" would have changed the tone from demanding, to asking.

newtinmpls · November 2016

Well, I thought the whole tone of the quoted chat was kind of snotty, myself, but maybe I'm over-sensitive.

Yesterday I was in a random non-vet (city of Ash II) and we couldn't get past Horvantud the Fire Maw.

I'm relatively new to healing, have an OK setup, but it's only for leveling; eventually want to respec to Blazing Shield - I'm playing an Orc, so it's not the best choice for healer. Usually I do okay. I'm working my second account up, he had only about 80 CP.

My partner is honing his tanking skills, and is working on his second tank build (he was playing an Orsimer, using at least 5pc thunderbug - can't recall the rest of the build).

Anyway, till then with two random, not especially chatty peeps (we'll offer skype, but rarely does anyone take us up on it), we were doing pretty good, by which I mean all the fights were going faster than expected.

Then Horvantund, bless his evil ground-shaking heart, just wiped us.

Tried a few different things, told the DPSs to stay closer (trying to heal through red) but without the lovely convenience of Skype, it wasn't working as "close enough".

At one point, my husband, who has more experience with healers in dire straits (my god you should see Fianna Kingsley - Breton Templar - she can heal through any damn thing), came over (we switched 'puters) but still no-go.

We even re-worked our bars, asked for suggestions, and after about 5 tries it was just not going to work.

So the group broke up.

No one yelled. No one was abusive. We wished each other luck, and went on our merry ways.

No drama. Just we didn't finish that dungeon.

I mention this because the "no drama" "tried to work it out and then went on our way" really does happen sometimes.

Schemering · November 2016

id say in one way the tank was correct its not his core business and its not a requirement for tanking; on the other hand as a tank he should be able to run a debuff and it does make the party more effective so when people ask me and i am able to run something as tank or healer ill do it

Buffler · November 2016

Its fungal grotto lol, i ran it with no food yesterday because I couldnt be arsed.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but other reasons exist for not using (or preferentially avoiding use of) puncture (and its morphs) as a tank.

Tryxus · November 2016

Schemering wrote: »

id say in one way the tank was correct its not his core business and its not a requirement for tanking; on the other hand as a tank he should be able to run a debuff and it does make the party more effective so when people ask me and i am able to run something as tank or healer ill do it

Actually, it is his job: a tank isn't supposed to be just a pretty meat shield, he/she should also act as group support for the team so that the healer can be more efficient and the DPSers can output more damage. That's why a tank should provide the group with the Pierce Armor debuffs as well as any other they have access to while providing assistance to the other group members

DoccEff · November 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

A group of randoms for the pledge is not the appropriate time or place to give unsolicited lectures to someone on how to play the game, if the error that they are making is not the kind of error that's preventing you from progressing. Now, if they're doing something that's causing you to wipe, like failure to follow mechanics for that fight, then a conversation would be warranted, but this is not such a case. You can ask the tank to please run Pierce, but if they don't want to, why press the matter? So the OP is wrong when it comes to the matter of common-sense etiquette.

Thanks for your comment.
Yes, you have a point. I'm afraid I can't say exactly what I wrote him first, since I have not screenshotted it, but I'm sure it wasn't aggressive; something like "could you pls run pierce armour to debuff the boss". When he had no clue what this skill even was (as a tank!), I got a bit salty. So yes, I could have been more polite. But he could have been too.

Still, this is an adult game and you shouldn't instantly get pissed when someone dares to criticise you or gives you advice. Seriously, some people should grow a thicker skin. We're not in elementary school anymore, where no matter how bad you are at something, your teacher will still help you and say it's fine...

sneakymitchell · November 2016

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Well I use ransack cause most magicka builds have more penetration than stam builds so if someone wasn't using penetrating on thier weapon or weapons then what's the point if the boss is close to be debuff the spell resistant even though macika builds be close to 10k penetration.

DRXHarbinger · November 2016

The issue is all these new tanks don't even have the skill unlocked. I had it today the tank had NO taunt at all. Was 300 cp and said it's a new toon and doesn't have the skill points to unlock it lol. Who the hell doesn't even the 1st skill in that line unlocked??? Needless to say we voted to kick, sent me a rage mail after saying that high cp players like me are bad for the game...

I replied stop trying to cut the queue and go and find 3 skyshards and be a proper tank.

Tanks now are very hard to find. I agree with op. Tank properly or get out of the queue.

sneakymitchell · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

Just another rant about a bad pug...

Yesterday's pledge, Fungal 2, me playing as a healer.
My group: 2 dds, cp around 250, doing the dungeon for the first time, and a tank with 580cp and 48k Hp.

At the second boss, Gamyne Bandu (the one that chains you down), I notice that she boss doesn't get the armour debuff. One DD was stam-based, and my ele drain was just debuffing her spell resistance.

After that I asked the tank, if he could please use pierce armour to debuff the boss.

The following dialogue, transcribed from the screenshot I took:

- Tank: "whick skill should i need to debuff xD?"
- Me: "the one hand shield taunt?"
- Tank: "mag tank"
- Tank: "its not my job to debuf"
- Me: "it is your job"
- Tank: "i also can deal damage"
- Tank: "but thats not my job"
- Me: "it is" (was refering to debuffing)
- Me: "all tanks in this game use it"
- Me: "i give you stam back with shards"
- Tank: "ok then have fun to find a real tank "

Then he left the group.

This guy had 580cp, which means he must have played this game for quite a while. But still, he obviously thought that he was right, when he said it's not the tanks job to debuff.
Usually, Hp numbers like 48k already make me cringe. But this guy topped it. gg.

Just to make it clear: He was just holding aggro with the magicka taunt and didn't debuff the boss, nor did he do any dps that would be worth mentioning. Yes, we could habe probably still completed the dungeon, and we didn't kick him, it was him who left, probably thinking what a fool that healer (me) must have been.

We then got a new tank pretty quick (also around 250cp and new to the dungeon), and completed the dungeon together. It wasn't the fastest run, since the others weren't that experienced, but it was still fun, because I saw that they were trying to follow the hints I gave them. If one of you reads this, thanks again.

--->TLDR:
Tank with 580cp and 48k hp said it wasn't his job to use pierce armour to debuff the boss' resistance. Then he left the group by himself, and I got just another bad pug-experience to share here.

A bad example of a tank is when they just taunt all the time. Who cares about rebuffs on the boss. If the tank supports the group with other buffs and does something to help beat the boss if DPSing then it's better than just taunting the boss wasting recourses

Woeler · November 2016

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but other reasons exist for not using (or preferentially avoiding use of) puncture (and its morphs) as a tank.

If you are talking about the elemental drain issue, that problem has been long, long, long solved.

Silver_Strider · November 2016

In PUGs, I have the absolute lowest expectations of people.

If the tank is holding aggro on big threats, that's all I care about.
If the healer is keeping everyone alive, that's all I care about.

Absolutely EVERYTHING else at that point is a bonus.

Baconfat79 · November 2016

In these 4-man dungeons, it absolutely is the tank's job to provide debuffs...and also to provide Warhorn as often as possible. Tanking is more than just taunting the boss and staying alive. If you disagree with that, you are a bad tank. Why would you not want to do everything possible to help your group perform better?

Francis_Toliver · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

Just another rant about a bad pug...

Yesterday's pledge, Fungal 2, me playing as a healer.
My group: 2 dds, cp around 250, doing the dungeon for the first time, and a tank with 580cp and 48k Hp.

At the second boss, Gamyne Bandu (the one that chains you down), I notice that she boss doesn't get the armour debuff. One DD was stam-based, and my ele drain was just debuffing her spell resistance.

After that I asked the tank, if he could please use pierce armour to debuff the boss.

Then he left the group.

This guy had 580cp, which means he must have played this game for quite a while. But still, he obviously thought that he was right, when he said it's not the tanks job to debuff.
Usually, Hp numbers like 48k already make me cringe. But this guy topped it. gg.

Just to make it clear: He was just holding aggro with the magicka taunt and didn't debuff the boss, nor did he do any dps that would be worth mentioning. Yes, we could habe probably still completed the dungeon, and we didn't kick him, it was him who left, probably thinking what a fool that healer (me) must have been.

We then got a new tank pretty quick (also around 250cp and new to the dungeon), and completed the dungeon together. It wasn't the fastest run, since the others weren't that experienced, but it was still fun, because I saw that they were trying to follow the hints I gave them. If one of you reads this, thanks again.

--->TLDR:
Tank with 580cp and 48k hp said it wasn't his job to use pierce armour to debuff the boss' resistance. Then he left the group by himself, and I got just another bad pug-experience to share here.

You are wrong. It is not a tanks job to debuff. It is a tanks job to pull agro. Everything else is nice, but not part of the job's description. Just like it is not part of a healers job to restore resources. A healers job is to heal. Anything on top of that is nice, and a good healer will offer other perks, just like a good tank will offer other support to the group, but what that support is, well, that's up to the tank (or healer etc.)

The fact that you are unable to play in a group unless all members follow your idea of what they should do says a lot about you (nothing nice) and little about them. Was he holding agro? Was he holding agro on the archers and mages on the outskirts of the mobs? Then he was doing his job.

One has to ask, micro manage much?

Tryxus · November 2016

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

I have a Magicka Sap Tank, and he thinks that guy's an idiot

It is a joy running dungeons with you mate, and agreed hehe

Haha, thx mate

Next time you want me to tank, I'll be sure to line the baddies up perfectly so you can take em out with 1 big spike

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

...had NO taunt at all.

Now THAT is a clear violation of the tankers union card.

UrQuan · November 2016

It's a tank's job to do the following (and in approximately this priority order):

Hold aggro on the biggest threat(s)
Survive
Direct the battlefield (where possible) so that the boss is being fought in the most advantageous location possible
Control adds with some form of CC/snare
Provide group support in the form of debuffs/buffs
Contribute to the group DPS
Resurrect dead people (only if the DPS are both dead, and only if it can be done while holding aggro so that the healer doesn't go down)

The last 3 items on that list are all shared responsibility with other members of the group, but that doesn't mean that the tank should ignore them. The vast majority of the time when I'm tanking I'm doing it on a magicka build, but I still use Pierce Armour as my primary taunt, using Inner Fire only when I really need a ranged taunt. It's just so much less efficient for the tank and for the entire group to use Inner Fire (partly because it doesn't provide the debuff, and partly because it just costs so much magicka to use, while Pierce Armour has a very low stamina cost).

I'm not saying you can't tank successfully using only Inner Fire (or one of its morphs) as your taunt, but it's less efficient and probably best suited to groups where you know and play with everyone in the group regularly, and you've designed your builds specifically to support each other. If I ended up in a PUG where the tank was using Inner Fire exclusively I wouldn't have an issue with it unless that was causing us serious problems, but I would pay particular attention to whether the tank was properly taking care of the first 4 items on my list above. If not, I'd discuss it with him.

newtinmpls · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

I can't say exactly what I wrote him first, since I have not screenshotted it, but I'm sure it wasn't aggressive; something like "could you pls run pierce armour to debuff the boss". When he had no clue what this skill even was (as a tank!), I got a bit salty.

So for whatever reason, this other player (may have been a gal - who knows) states unfamiliarity with the exact name of a morph that s/he doesn't use.

And that's reason to to stop acting like an adult (or a helpful group member) and "get salty"?

DoccEff wrote: »

We're not in elementary school anymore, where no matter how bad you are at something, your teacher will still help you and say it's fine...

First off - you clearly had a good teacher - so good for that.

Second - we always have a choice to be helpful or not.

Apparently you chose "not".

Smashington357 · November 2016

Baconfat79 wrote: »

In these 4-man dungeons, it absolutely is the tank's job to provide debuffs...and also to provide Warhorn as often as possible. Tanking is more than just taunting the boss and staying alive. If you disagree with that, you are a bad tank. Why would you not want to do everything possible to help your group perform better?

OP is talking about a pug though. Not his guild, not a trial. He's expecting a pug to preform at top speed and that is unreasonable. The tank ate dmg and taunts? That's a win. And someone mentioned destro staff passive were just for destro staff skills yeah ofc what else would they be for?

UrQuan · November 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

The issue is all these new tanks don't even have the skill unlocked. I had it today the tank had NO taunt at all. Was 300 cp and said it's a new toon and doesn't have the skill points to unlock it lol. Who the hell doesn't even the 1st skill in that line unlocked??? Needless to say we voted to kick, sent me a rage mail after saying that high cp players like me are bad for the game...

I replied stop trying to cut the queue and go and find 3 skyshards and be a proper tank.

Tanks now are very hard to find. I agree with op. Tank properly or get out of the queue.

*sigh* If you don't have a taunt, you're not a tank. You can't succeed as a tank without using at least 1 of the 2 taunts. You were right to vote-kick this guy.

DoccEff · November 2016

Since there are still people commenting here, who didn't read or understand my whole comment, here's another summary:

- The tank never lost aggro on the boss. He even aggroed all the four adds that spawn sometimes, so I could res the dead dds. Nothing to criticise about this part.
- I didn't really see him use many other skills, I think he was using healing ritual (as a templar tank), which I was using too as a healer. But no warhorn, no other support skills. Not sure if he even used an armour buff on himself since I didn't see the rune under him (templar skill that buffes armour, for those who don't know).
- We could have still completed that dungeon. It was him who left us standing there.
- If he had ANY REASON not to use pierce armour, I would have accepted it. For example, if he was a DD/Tank-Hybrid who holds aggro and does dps in addition to that. I offered him stamina support (<-MY job), he declined.
- The main reason why I got so salty wasn't because he didn't use skill X. It was because he said, that as a tank it is not his job to debuff (then who's job is it?)... That is the main reason why I got upset.

Rune_Relic · November 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

The issue is all these new tanks don't even have the skill unlocked. I had it today the tank had NO taunt at all. Was 300 cp and said it's a new toon and doesn't have the skill points to unlock it lol. Who the hell doesn't even the 1st skill in that line unlocked??? Needless to say we voted to kick, sent me a rage mail after saying that high cp players like me are bad for the game...

I replied stop trying to cut the queue and go and find 3 skyshards and be a proper tank.

Tanks now are very hard to find. I agree with op. Tank properly or get out of the queue.

Exactly what I have been arguing.
Skills locked behind level, limited skill points.
Scaled up players arent capable of performing roles properly.
Is that a player problem or a game design problem ?
Vets dont want new players to be competitive....they have to earn it.
So whose fault is that when they cant even play their role ?

But where do you draw the line.
DPS not doing 20k dps ..because they dont have 561 CP and skills unlocked?
Tank with no access to taunt..because not levelled enough.
Are you suggesting we say...new player...you cant play!
Thats stupid and you would be stupid to propose it.
You cant gate content...and yet here we are with gated roles.

Now imagine a new player can put points into any active skill straight from the off.
They just cant unlock every skill until further into the game.
That means they can use the skill they actually need 1st and level it straight away.
The only problem is they lack skill points.
So they cant invest in everything like vets.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

Woeler wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but other reasons exist for not using (or preferentially avoiding use of) puncture (and its morphs) as a tank.

If you are talking about the elemental drain issue, that problem has been long, long, long solved.

Not one of the reasons I was thinking of, but good to know.

Francis_Toliver · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Still, this is an adult game and you shouldn't instantly get pissed when someone dares to criticise you or gives you advice. Seriously, some people should grow a thicker skin. We're not in elementary school anymore, where no matter how bad you are at something, your teacher will still help you and say it's fine...

You mean like you are getting when people in this forum criticize you? hmm. Imagine that!

DoccEff · November 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

First off - you clearly had a good teacher - so good for that.

Second - we always have a choice to be helpful or not.

Apparently you chose "not".

Yeah, my teacher was nice. Sorry if you weren't that lucky.

But please tell me, how I could have been more helpful here. I was just saying, please use this skill to support the group. He blocked all my help by simply saying "that's not my job." Hell, he didn't even know the skill, that is the main taunt in this game. As a tank. With 580cp. If he didn't know why this skill is better and asked me about it, I would have it explained to him. But all he did was leave the group. No more chance for me to be helpful.

Woeler · November 2016

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but other reasons exist for not using (or preferentially avoiding use of) puncture (and its morphs) as a tank.

If you are talking about the elemental drain issue, that problem has been long, long, long solved.

Not one of the reasons I was thinking of, but good to know.

These reasons, tell me all about them.

UrQuan · November 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

The issue is all these new tanks don't even have the skill unlocked. I had it today the tank had NO taunt at all. Was 300 cp and said it's a new toon and doesn't have the skill points to unlock it lol. Who the hell doesn't even the 1st skill in that line unlocked??? Needless to say we voted to kick, sent me a rage mail after saying that high cp players like me are bad for the game...

I replied stop trying to cut the queue and go and find 3 skyshards and be a proper tank.

Tanks now are very hard to find. I agree with op. Tank properly or get out of the queue.

Exactly what I have been arguing.
Skills locked behind level, limited skill points.
Scaled up players arent capable of performing roles properly.
Is that a player problem or a game design problem ?
Vets dont want new players to be competitive....they have to earn it.
So whose fault is that when they cant even play their role ?

But where do you draw the line.
DPS not doing 20k dps ..because they dont have 561 CP and skills unlocked?
Tank with no access to taunt..because not levelled enough.
Are you suggesting we say...new player...you cant play!
Thats stupid and you would be stupid to propose it.
You cant gate content...and yet here we are with gated roles.

Now imagine a new player can put points into any active skill straight from the off.
They just cant unlock every skill until further into the game.
That means they can use the skill they actually need 1st and level it straight away.
The only problem is they lack skill points.
So they cant invest in everything like vets.

And yet the bold part isn't a problem with not being leveled enough. The tank's bread-and-butter taunt is literally the very first skill in the Sword & Shield skill line. You can have it and be using it before you've even completed the Wailing Prison tutorial. If a so-called "tank" doesn't even have it, then it's not someone who just hasn't leveled enough to play their role, it's someone who isn't willing to play their role.