Nerf resource poisons

FENGRUSH · November 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I have to agree that it is a separate issue because yea you can use it somewhat to counter heavy armor, but this completely makes light armor not a viable playstyle at all because light armor users can't block or dodge roll, their defense is tied to casting skills I wouldn't really call that balanced. These poisons will never be balanced as long as they are this strong. Not to mention how strong it is in outnumbered situations

@thankyourat I am not sure I understand. You argue poisons are a separate issue from armor and then argue why it is unbalanced for Light Armor....pick one, it cant be independent and a factor at the same time.

Light armor has a bunch of issues, #100 of which is resource poisons. If anything LA users benefit from widespread poison use as the reduce cost from the LA passives would actually be beneficial compared to constitution.

Poisons are not independent of class and armor balance. Everything is connected, if mechanics are not considered as a complete system, balance will be impossible to achieve. Poisons need to be evaluated in context of all the current gameplay mechanics and balanced accordingly.

Theyre connected in some sense. They shouldnt be balanced around *heavy armor is OP so poisons should be OP*. Destro ult shouldnt be balanced around viper set on stam users. Etc. They are all in the same spectrum, and sometimes the issues tie together...

Ernest145 wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Doesnt matter if you build resource management and youre trying to win a fight outnumbered at 1:3 or 1:4 odds and the whole group of majority is using resource poisons keeping them on you the entire time. 60% is huge, and people win just by having numbers staying alive (which just so happens to be extremely easy now with new equipment). These poisons are awful. If you try dueling and one guy is using this and the other isnt, they arent even remotely even.

@FENGRUSH I don't see how you can put out cancer build videos and then argue against poisons. The hypocrisy is amazing. Most proc builds don't actually need to cast skills to do damage, so why are you worried about resources?

EMBRACE THE POISONS.

But seriously, why can't someone slot efficient purge and invest in magicka sustain? I think it is a good thing that cleanses are becoming more important in addition to raw healing power.

Lastly, poisons are the one of the few things that remain effective against heavy armor and poisons allow the reduce cost from medium to really shine, giving medium some degree of usefulness.

Of course tanky players using poisons are difficult to 1vX but this may be a result of the meta that you directly encouraged. Reap what you sow my friend.

Those sets should have been nerfed, and likely will be. They are a completely seperate issue from proc sets. Having purge is not a good response to people trying to fight 5v20 and 20 people slotting resource poisons, they will crush their resources by constantly reapplying even after being purged. Poisons shouldnt be 'a counter to heavy armor'. Heavy armor issues is again... another isolated issue.

Its like saying destro ult is fine because stam has proc sets. You literally will fix nothing if you say one thing is fine because it counters another broken thing.

Saying the issues are separate is a convenient argument, but that fact is everything in linked in PVP, that is why they call it balance.

If you are fighting 5v20, the battle should be decided by well coordinated engagement with your small man to take out as many as possible on the opener. I don't see how you can advocate for 5v20 to win in a direct engagement or when a 5 man squad gets jumped by 20 players. If resource poisons are the deciding factor then I would argue it is not a situation you should win. What are you suggesting?

Lastly, I agree poisons shouldn't be counter for heavy armor, but they are and they work. Especially if you chose to run vitality over a tri-pot.

@FENGRUSH You advocate for balance but insist it should be obtained by people running cheesy builds that frustrate players until ZoS fixes the issue. IF that is the case, then put your money where your mouth is and embrace poisons for the balance they will bring the game when ZoS realizes their mistake. If you don't, that is hypocrisy.

On the 5v20 part - yes, you will hit the group with a big punch and kill people, they will probably ress too. Thats all good and fine - the battle likely wont be decided within a short window. If the fight goes for 3-5mins, and the 20 have poisons, and the 5 have poisons - how will this pan out? The 5 will randomly wound 5 of the 20 players resources through the course of the fight. The 20 are able to reapply poisons over and over and impact the entire group with a heavy level of redundancy. Ultimately, as powerful as these poisons are, that group of fewer numbers will suffer over the course of a fight that isnt decided instantly (think about a fight without proc sets that isnt immediately over).

I mean, youre thinking/discussing the actual numbers here. Lets take another example, 3v6 - relatively even skill level... a bit more in favor of 3. This would assume they balance out a bit in the fight. They all run poisons, but the 3 will suffer tremendously in this scenario. This is comparable to dynamic ult gen being removed. It favors numbers, and its effect is absolutely devastating in a fight.

I dont understand the last part of your post about being a hypocrite. Balance should be obtained by people running cheesy builds? Balance is created by the developers - not people running cheese builds, non cheese builds, or whatever they are doing. That is irrelevant. People making cheesy builds can spread those throughout Cyro much quicker, having the impact felt on a mass scale. The players would figure it out eventually anyway. So... I can embrace poisons... yes. But as I pointed out, if Im fighting outnumbered constantly, embracing those poisons is all good and well, Im going to be poisoned 100% of the fight, and one of my enemies will be poisoned for a fraction of the fight, while the other(s) go unaffected.

I can accept that poisons function this way and the numbers suffer natural disadvantages. I cant accept it if they increase cost by SIXTY PERCENT. Thats absurd.

@FENGRUSH go watch your stam sorc "Wrobel Revenge" video. You clearly state that people should be using proc builds or be at a disadvantage and that it is up to the community to force ZOS to change. Why can't poisons work the same way. IF more people use them, PVP will become even less entertaining forcing ZOS to redesign the mechanic. I just don't see why you made a video advocating for cancer builds, but argue against resource poisons, its hypocritical. Both are doing the same thing, making the game unplayable until ZOS gives us a balanced game.

@FENGRUSH I would argue in a 3v6 of similar skill level the 3-man should NEVER WIN. Resource poison aside, if you are straight up fighting 2v1 vs a skilled opponents in open ground, there is no way you should win. Now if you are using superior positioning and tactics to initiate a fight against a larger "small man", I would say 3 could / should kill 6 without resource poisons becoming a factor.

If ever a small man group is in a prolonged battle against larger numbers the small man should lose, resource poisons aside. Small groups can defeat large ones by coordinating damage to finish targets quickly. If anything YOU SHOULD BE IN FAVOR of resource poisons as a way to minimize the effectiveness of healing bots as you open up combat. You successfully advocated for a nerf to BoL, I would think anything that limits healing effectiveness in PVP you would be in favor for.

Yeah I'm still salty about that 2 patches later....*** was unnecessary and did nothing to curb the healing in Cyrodil. In fact in the same patch, they made healing even better, but I digress. This really isn't about that, It's more about you as a popular streamer talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You JUST complained in another thread that a player should not be able to sustain with 800 regen against several players, here is the link:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/299905/one-shot-nightblade-ganking/p2

Like what the hell are you advocating for? What do you think PVP should be, and how would you get there? All I see from you is complaints about every facet of PVP (survivability, sustain, healing, proc sets etc etc etc.) when they are all a product of each other. How can you argue against 1 broken mechanic, but say that proc sets are ok because "Wrobel" put them in the game. Same is true of resource poisons, HA and major mending.

You will accept 17K burst and major fracture from ransack at 1.7k stam cost, but you cannot accept a 17k and major fracture for 2.7k stam? Why is one ok but the other is not? This is the hypocrisy I am calling you out on.

Yes Fengrush posted a proc build and plays with one, doesn't mean he thinks they are balanced and should stay. He even said it should be nerfed but you chose not to read and just rant, read over his comments and you will see. Poison are op, proc sets are op, destro ult is op, literally so many things in this game now are broken there are few ways you can play that are not considered cheesy. So I'm not sure why people even care who plays what and use that as an arguement. Just because someone plays a certain way that you think is cheesy doesn't mean they can't advocate for balance.

I even started running a one shot gank build because I'm over how the game is so I'm just playing how zos wants us to play. I hope they balance ganking, proc sets, poisons, heavy armor, destro ult, and many more things. I really don't see that happening considering how they just continue to ruin pvp more and more every patch. Honestly there is no reason to point fingers and argue about who runs what gear now, all the blame is on zos for allowing it to happen.

Its true, its an abusive world in Cyro - its really been left to savage gameplay and you are pretty gimped not using some combination of things people would consider meta or cheap.

The build I posted was what people asked me about on the PTS though for dueling. It happens to work very well in open world as well though (something you cant test on PTS).

I havent used the build once since I made it and dont plan to. Ive been making builds for other classes and builds that can compete that dont revolve around viper as well. Viper is just very effective at syncing burst - and in PvP.. closing a kill is all about burst. When numbers are even, its very difficult to out resource/debuff a player when you compare it to the alternative (Granted your build has been thought out). Generally people will just turtle up on defense if you try to whittle them down until more numbers arrive. Its just the current PvP environment, and its not a great one.

altemriel · November 2016

nerf proc sets in PVP, nerf resource draining poisons in PVP!!
but not in PVE!!

Rikumaru · November 2016

Yeah man, when I PvE I totally rely on resource poisons, without them my build would have never worked.

Seido_Tensei_ · November 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

But poisons aren't used as a counter to heavy armor they counter all armor. I'm confused as to why they would have to leave poisons alone as long as heavy armor is op. That doesn't make any sense. effect

@thankyourat You are taking what I said out of context. I never argued that poisons needed to be balanced based on heavy armor, I simply provided a context in which poisons in their current state can be used to counter an increasingly popular play style that is also unbalanced.

Does that make poisons balanced? Hell no, what I am saying is that you cannot adjust poisons in a vacuum, they should be adjusted along with everything else that is currently over powered. Adjusting poisons without adjusting other mechanics is NOT going to offer more balance, in fact it may limit options to counter increase toxic and popular play styles. That is all I am trying to say.

thankyourat wrote: »

It's hard to fit cleanse on my bar. I don't know if you ever played solo magblade but it's difficult to get all the skills you need on your bar. To get cleanse i would have to give up major fracture. Which would make me weaker against heavy armor. Also what about the classes without a cleanse it's harder for stamina classes to run purge because of a limited magicka pool.

So you admit that you COULD fit cleanse on your bar, you just don't want to sacrifice major fracture. That is a trade off that you are choosing to make, so live with your choices and leave yourself vulnerable to poisons.

As for classes that don't have a large magicka pool.... doesn't a need for magicka sustain actually expand to potentially viable stamina and hybrid builds? Night blades have to chose between fear cloak and cleanse, a Stam sorcs would need to think carefully before using magicka for streak or dark deal. Hybrids may actually become viable, and people who use tri-stat may actually see a significant benefit in their utility.

Resource poisons absolutely hurt min-max pure builds who rely solely on one resource, but offers up a ton of viability for other things like light / medium armor "resource - hybrids". Of course it is not perfect, but it may be a step in the right direction.

Just because it hurts your play style doesn't make it wrong.

Proc-builds on the other hand I would argue should not be a play-style at all. Like what is a proc build play-style other than button mashing? But I digress....

thankyourat wrote: »

if something is so powerful it makes all classes run a certain ability to counter it then it's probably too powerful and needs to be tuned down a little bit. Not being able to play solo in light armor is a myth as well. As long as I'm paying attention I do fine even in light armor. It's not as easy as heavy or medium but if it was easy what fun would it be.

I don't know what to tell you, there are already several skills that every single class HAS to run already. They come in several different forms but every single build runs a combination of:

Heal abilities
Stun / Immobilize abilities
Major Brutality / Sorcery abilities (and to a lesser extent empower)
Burst ultimate or Execute '

Why can't a cleanse be added to the mix? Templar's may be the only class with an innate cleanse, but stamina templar for example lacks a stamina gap closer that they get from the 2H skill line.

The point is there are a lot of abilities that classes have to get from alternative skill lines and that is OK, so why would you argue against cleanse being an essential skill? I am arguing having a cleanse as an essential skill opens up a ton of build diversity, arguable making the game more balanced (because more play-styles are viable)

thankyourat wrote: »

All and all I'm just kind of confused how draining someone's resources makes the game more balanced. It seems to be having the opposite effect

I am not arguing resource poisons in their current form are balanced, however resource poisons definitely have a place and they should be strong enough to force players to deal with them when considering build options or suffer the consequences.

Stamina Magicka hybrids have not been viable since soft caps were removed from the game, mostly because they were left behind when it came to DPS. Now mechanics are being introduced to make investing in off damage stats appealing, and that is a good thing in the long run to help bring other play-styles to viability.

I am not suggesting a stamina magicka hybrid should ever do as much damage as a pure build, but utility builds should have their place and come with their own set of advantages, to me that is a path towards balance.

Magus · November 2016

Rikumaru wrote: »

Yeah man, when I PvE I totally rely on resource poisons, without them my build would have never worked.

lol'd and awesome'd

Seido_Tensei_ · November 2016

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Poisons clearly benefit Xv1, not sure why it's even up for debate. Instead of adding poisons to balance sustain / tanks etc why not just balance the actual cause of the problem in the first place... Also FYI I've been running destro ult on a stamina build and been performing with it better than magicka builds.

@IxSTALKERxI Don't worry, this post was far from constructive, as it is clear you failed to read even 1/10th of the conversation.

I never argued poisons didn't benefit Xv1. I never said poisons were the ideal answer to blackrose / heavy armor. All I stated was that removing resource poisons would limit the available options of dealing with heavy armor. I will repeat myself as many times as necessary.

I agree they should deal with the root cause of imbalance, but can you point to a singular cause? I can't, that why I am saying things need to be tuned together as a complete ecosystem and not nerfed or removed disparately.

I think it is hilarious you are arguing against resource poisions but have no problem using the destro ultimate LOL.

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder If I should even bother trying to make a constructive post on these forums, if people like HoloYoitsu and Fengrush can't 1vX stupid comments what chance do I have.

Thanks to your response, I am the only one in this thread 1vXing stupidity and hypocrisy at the same time.

Seido_Tensei_ · November 2016

Qbiken wrote: »

Karacule_Fairystar wrote: »

or rework the passive effect of Snakeblood from Alchemy skill line.

This^. So that poisons from other players are x% less effective against you

Excellent suggestion.

Seido_Tensei_ · November 2016

Ernest145 wrote: »

Yes Fengrush posted a proc build and plays with one, doesn't mean he thinks they are balanced and should stay. He even said it should be nerfed but you chose not to read and just rant, read over his comments and you will see. Poison are op, proc sets are op, destro ult is op, literally so many things in this game now are broken there are few ways you can play that are not considered cheesy. So I'm not sure why people even care who plays what and use that as an arguement. Just because someone plays a certain way that you think is cheesy doesn't mean they can't advocate for balance.

Wow @Ernest145 its Monday so let me take you to school:

Hypocrisy (Definition): "The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

There are absolutely ways to play the game currently at a semi-competitive level without running any form of proc set.

So if you use something that is considered to be bad for the game / OP then you are hypocrite, pure and simple. Not to say you are "wrong" or that there should be anything to stop you, but at the same time, you cannot use these bull *** mechanics and argue for balance......Well you can....but you would be a hypocrite.

Ernest145 wrote: »

I even started running a one shot gank build because I'm over how the game is so I'm just playing how zos wants us to play. I hope they balance ganking, proc sets, poisons, heavy armor, destro ult, and many more things. I really don't see that happening considering how they just continue to ruin pvp more and more every patch. Honestly there is no reason to point fingers and argue about who runs what gear now, all the blame is on zos for allowing it to happen.

You are an hypocrite as well, along with anyone else who follows this logic.

Stop saying that this is "how ZOS wants us to play". That is a cop-out pure and simple. ZOS is not shoving these proc sets down anyone's throat. Just because they released them without regard to balance in the current PVP ecosystem is irrelevant.

It is the players that play the game, we can decide what gets used and what becomes "meta". IF people shunned those that use proc sets, or at least streamers made a concerted effort to discourage the use then I think we would see less of them, and cyrodil would be a healthier place. Instead we got the opposite and a bunch of people saying "ZOS put it in the game, so I am going to use it until it is fixed". Well by that measure then, don't complain about resource poisons....or you are a hypocrite.

There are worst things to be (than a hypocrite) mind you....but you got to be real about what you are.

Seido_Tensei_ · November 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Theyre connected in some sense. They shouldnt be balanced around *heavy armor is OP so poisons should be OP*. Destro ult shouldnt be balanced around viper set on stam users. Etc. They are all in the same spectrum, and sometimes the issues tie together..

@FENGRUSH You over simplified my argument. I never said that, like I have said to the last 4 people who have short changed my response. You admit the issues tie together, I am advocating they should be balanced together, that is all. Not saying that as long as heavy armor is OP, poisons should be OP, what I am saying is everything needs to be balanced. EVERYTHING, not just a couple of mechanics, but all pvp balance needs to be adjusted as a complete system and not done individually.

Stop making strawman arguments, and responding to imaginary claims. Instead how about you reconcile your comment about infinite sustain in 1vX and your complaints about resource poisons? Do you need the link again?

Or better yet, just state in simple terms what you feel would be a balanced state of PVP. When you talk out of both sides of your mouth it is very confusing to determine what you are actually looking for.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Its true, its an abusive world in Cyro - its really been left to savage gameplay and you are pretty gimped not using some combination of things people would consider meta or cheap.

The build I posted was what people asked me about on the PTS though for dueling. It happens to work very well in open world as well though (something you cant test on PTS).

I havent used the build once since I made it and dont plan to. Ive been making builds for other classes and builds that can compete that dont revolve around viper as well. Viper is just very effective at syncing burst - and in PvP.. closing a kill is all about burst. When numbers are even, its very difficult to out resource/debuff a player when you compare it to the alternative (Granted your build has been thought out). Generally people will just turtle up on defense if you try to whittle them down until more numbers arrive. Its just the current PvP environment, and its not a great one.

@FENGRUSH It actually doesn't matter if you currently use the build. It doesn't matter your reasons for putting the build together. Anyone who plays pvp was having the same ideas....A lot of people were already running viper velidreth before 1T dropped.

I am not blaming you for coming up with the combination. I am saying that as soon as you advocated that people use the set (regardless of your reasoning) you gave up your ability to argue for balance without being a hypocrite.

If you made a video denouncing the proc build combinations, people would still know they existed, but there wouldn't be a roadmap to putting the build together, forcing people to at least theory craft a bit, and maybe, just maybe your word could convince people not to run "the cancer meta" making cyrodil a healthier place. You may not of CAUSED the meta but you didn't try to stop it either.

Yeah other streamers / players may have done it as well, and if ever I see them speaking out against OP mechanics I will call them out along with you. The point is, you could of chosen not to put out a video, but you didn't. So embrace your logic and accept what ZOS has introduced and the PVP environment you helped create.

Ernest145 · November 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Yes Fengrush posted a proc build and plays with one, doesn't mean he thinks they are balanced and should stay. He even said it should be nerfed but you chose not to read and just rant, read over his comments and you will see. Poison are op, proc sets are op, destro ult is op, literally so many things in this game now are broken there are few ways you can play that are not considered cheesy. So I'm not sure why people even care who plays what and use that as an arguement. Just because someone plays a certain way that you think is cheesy doesn't mean they can't advocate for balance.

Wow @Ernest145 its Monday so let me take you to school:

Hypocrisy (Definition): "The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

There are absolutely ways to play the game currently at a semi-competitive level without running any form of proc set.

So if you use something that is considered to be bad for the game / OP then you are hypocrite, pure and simple. Not to say you are "wrong" or that there should be anything to stop you, but at the same time, you cannot use these bull *** mechanics and argue for balance......Well you can....but you would be a hypocrite.

Ernest145 wrote: »

I even started running a one shot gank build because I'm over how the game is so I'm just playing how zos wants us to play. I hope they balance ganking, proc sets, poisons, heavy armor, destro ult, and many more things. I really don't see that happening considering how they just continue to ruin pvp more and more every patch. Honestly there is no reason to point fingers and argue about who runs what gear now, all the blame is on zos for allowing it to happen.

You are an hypocrite as well, along with anyone else who follows this logic.

Stop saying that this is "how ZOS wants us to play". That is a cop-out pure and simple. ZOS is not shoving these proc sets down anyone's throat. Just because they released them without regard to balance in the current PVP ecosystem is irrelevant.

It is the players that play the game, we can decide what gets used and what becomes "meta". IF people shunned those that use proc sets, or at least streamers made a concerted effort to discourage the use then I think we would see less of them, and cyrodil would be a healthier place. Instead we got the opposite and a bunch of people saying "ZOS put it in the game, so I am going to use it until it is fixed". Well by that measure then, don't complain about resource poisons....or you are a hypocrite.

There are worst things to be (than a hypocrite) mind you....but you got to be real about what you are.

First of all I didn't comment on anyone being a hypocrite so I'm not sure why you are trying to throw that at me. Also, for me to be a hypocrite I would have to say "don't use proc sets, poisons, destro ultimate, etc they are bad for the game" but then I would continue to use them myself. I don't think they're good for the game, but I think its okay to use them because why should you limit yourself and have other use them rampantly on you? If the developers want you to use these sets, skills, or items then go for it. If they don't they should balance them, it shouldn't be our job to police ourselves and stop using intended mechanics.

I'm curious, why does it matter if someone is a hypocrite or not in a game?? As long as someone isn't exploiting I see no reason to complain, you calling out people for being a hypocrite does nothing for this thread and accomplishes nothing at all. So I would just stop because its pretty pointless, because you are just trying to argue just to argue.

If I'm a hypocrite I couldn't careless it's a game, I will post my thoughts and ideas and hope zos fixes these issues. If I was advocating for nerfing so many things while trying to keep my broken builds, then that would be an issue. I have made competitive builds without proc sets but throwing yourself into pvp and just getting focused by all these viper, velidreth, widowmaker, and tremorscale users made me care a lot less on what kind of "cheese build" I'm running. That doesn't even factor in all the other broken things in this game that get spammed on me.

As I said there are so many things bad for the game that why should I not use them? Me not using proc sets won't stop all the destro ults. poisons, health tanks, and many more other broken things in this game. If there was only a few things that were considered bad for the game then you would have a point because you can probably avoid using them and be fine. Again there is just so many things wrong that I don't see a point in not using them.

If you find enjoyment knowing that you don't use anything that you think is bad for the game, then good for you glad you are happy with that. Just saying there is no reason to yell at others for using these things even if they are demanding that zos balance them to make the game better.