FENGRUSH wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

ha ha this is really funny. Its a fence topic and can be argued from both sides. The only post that actually meant anything here was the fact there is a 10 second poison. I mean really guys how hard is it to recognize the debuff and either purge it or great idea here don't cast.

Yea I'm just not going to cast my shield when I'm getting beat on wearing light armor by all these high damage proc builds. I'll be dead in seconds. But I guess I'm just delaying death anyway because casting shields when poisoned will drain all my magicka anyway

since magic poison increases cost by 60% maybe you might want to use cost reduction CP and glyphs. I mean WTF 60% of 1000 is only 600 making an ability cost 1600. Oh thats right you want to stack damage so you can run around with shields and 1 shot players.......

Look i'm being sarcastic here and the fact of the matter is when this game came out players learned real fast how to build the glass canon builds. I have always said a balanced build tends to survive better in PVP and at this point everyone is finally learning what balance really is and the fact of the matter is we now have sets that allow us to reach that balance more efficiently. Either through sustainability and proc sets or via classic mitigation.

Don't be discouraged this is part of a huge learning curve. Within a few weeks or a month players will have figured it all out and this particular thread will simply pass on to the back pages of the forums.

Doesnt matter if you build resource management and youre trying to win a fight outnumbered at 1:3 or 1:4 odds and the whole group of majority is using resource poisons keeping them on you the entire time. 60% is huge, and people win just by having numbers staying alive (which just so happens to be extremely easy now with new equipment). These poisons are awful. If you try dueling and one guy is using this and the other isnt, they arent even remotely even.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Doesnt matter if you build resource management and youre trying to win a fight outnumbered at 1:3 or 1:4 odds and the whole group of majority is using resource poisons keeping them on you the entire time. 60% is huge, and people win just by having numbers staying alive (which just so happens to be extremely easy now with new equipment). These poisons are awful. If you try dueling and one guy is using this and the other isnt, they arent even remotely even.

Anazasi wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

ha ha this is really funny. Its a fence topic and can be argued from both sides. The only post that actually meant anything here was the fact there is a 10 second poison. I mean really guys how hard is it to recognize the debuff and either purge it or great idea here don't cast.

Yea I'm just not going to cast my shield when I'm getting beat on wearing light armor by all these high damage proc builds. I'll be dead in seconds. But I guess I'm just delaying death anyway because casting shields when poisoned will drain all my magicka anyway

since magic poison increases cost by 60% maybe you might want to use cost reduction CP and glyphs. I mean WTF 60% of 1000 is only 600 making an ability cost 1600. Oh thats right you want to stack damage so you can run around with shields and 1 shot players.......

Look i'm being sarcastic here and the fact of the matter is when this game came out players learned real fast how to build the glass canon builds. I have always said a balanced build tends to survive better in PVP and at this point everyone is finally learning what balance really is and the fact of the matter is we now have sets that allow us to reach that balance more efficiently. Either through sustainability and proc sets or via classic mitigation.

Don't be discouraged this is part of a huge learning curve. Within a few weeks or a month players will have figured it all out and this particular thread will simply pass on to the back pages of the forums.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Doesnt matter if you build resource management and youre trying to win a fight outnumbered at 1:3 or 1:4 odds and the whole group of majority is using resource poisons keeping them on you the entire time. 60% is huge, and people win just by having numbers staying alive (which just so happens to be extremely easy now with new equipment). These poisons are awful. If you try dueling and one guy is using this and the other isnt, they arent even remotely even.

@FENGRUSH I don't see how you can put out cancer build videos and then argue against poisons. The hypocrisy is amazing. Most proc builds don't actually need to cast skills to do damage, so why are you worried about resources?

EMBRACE THE POISONS.

But seriously, why can't someone slot efficient purge and invest in magicka sustain? I think it is a good thing that cleanses are becoming more important in addition to raw healing power.

Lastly, poisons are the one of the few things that remain effective against heavy armor and poisons allow the reduce cost from medium to really shine, giving medium some degree of usefulness.

Of course tanky players using poisons are difficult to 1vX but this may be a result of the meta that you directly encouraged. Reap what you sow my friend.

Those sets should have been nerfed, and likely will be. They are a completely seperate issue from proc sets. Having purge is not a good response to people trying to fight 5v20 and 20 people slotting resource poisons, they will crush their resources by constantly reapplying even after being purged. Poisons shouldnt be 'a counter to heavy armor'. Heavy armor issues is again... another isolated issue.

Its like saying destro ult is fine because stam has proc sets. You literally will fix nothing if you say one thing is fine because it counters another broken thing.

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Doesnt matter if you build resource management and youre trying to win a fight outnumbered at 1:3 or 1:4 odds and the whole group of majority is using resource poisons keeping them on you the entire time. 60% is huge, and people win just by having numbers staying alive (which just so happens to be extremely easy now with new equipment). These poisons are awful. If you try dueling and one guy is using this and the other isnt, they arent even remotely even.

@FENGRUSH I don't see how you can put out cancer build videos and then argue against poisons. The hypocrisy is amazing. Most proc builds don't actually need to cast skills to do damage, so why are you worried about resources?

EMBRACE THE POISONS.

But seriously, why can't someone slot efficient purge and invest in magicka sustain? I think it is a good thing that cleanses are becoming more important in addition to raw healing power.

Lastly, poisons are the one of the few things that remain effective against heavy armor and poisons allow the reduce cost from medium to really shine, giving medium some degree of usefulness.

Of course tanky players using poisons are difficult to 1vX but this may be a result of the meta that you directly encouraged. Reap what you sow my friend.

Those sets should have been nerfed, and likely will be. They are a completely seperate issue from proc sets. Having purge is not a good response to people trying to fight 5v20 and 20 people slotting resource poisons, they will crush their resources by constantly reapplying even after being purged. Poisons shouldnt be 'a counter to heavy armor'. Heavy armor issues is again... another isolated issue.

Its like saying destro ult is fine because stam has proc sets. You literally will fix nothing if you say one thing is fine because it counters another broken thing.

Saying the issues are separate is a convenient argument, but that fact is everything in linked in PVP, that is why they call it balance.

If you are fighting 5v20, the battle should be decided by well coordinated engagement with your small man to take out as many as possible on the opener. I don't see how you can advocate for 5v20 to win in a direct engagement or when a 5 man squad gets jumped by 20 players. If resource poisons are the deciding factor then I would argue it is not a situation you should win. What are you suggesting?

Lastly, I agree poisons shouldn't be counter for heavy armor, but they are and they work. Especially if you chose to run vitality over a tri-pot.

@FENGRUSH You advocate for balance but insist it should be obtained by people running cheesy builds that frustrate players until ZoS fixes the issue. IF that is the case, then put your money where your mouth is and embrace poisons for the balance they will bring the game when ZoS realizes their mistake. If you don't, that is hypocrisy.

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I have to agree that it is a separate issue because yea you can use it somewhat to counter heavy armor, but this completely makes light armor not a viable playstyle at all because light armor users can't block or dodge roll, their defense is tied to casting skills I wouldn't really call that balanced. These poisons will never be balanced as long as they are this strong. Not to mention how strong it is in outnumbered situations

@thankyourat I am not sure I understand. You argue poisons are a separate issue from armor and then argue why it is unbalanced for Light Armor....pick one, it cant be independent and a factor at the same time.

Light armor has a bunch of issues, #100 of which is resource poisons. If anything LA users benefit from widespread poison use as the reduce cost from the LA passives would actually be beneficial compared to constitution.

Poisons are not independent of class and armor balance. Everything is connected, if mechanics are not considered as a complete system, balance will be impossible to achieve. Poisons need to be evaluated in context of all the current gameplay mechanics and balanced accordingly.

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I have to agree that it is a separate issue because yea you can use it somewhat to counter heavy armor, but this completely makes light armor not a viable playstyle at all because light armor users can't block or dodge roll, their defense is tied to casting skills I wouldn't really call that balanced. These poisons will never be balanced as long as they are this strong. Not to mention how strong it is in outnumbered situations

@thankyourat I am not sure I understand. You argue poisons are a separate issue from armor and then argue why it is unbalanced for Light Armor....pick one, it cant be independent and a factor at the same time.

Light armor has a bunch of issues, #100 of which is resource poisons. If anything LA users benefit from widespread poison use as the reduce cost from the LA passives would actually be beneficial compared to constitution.

Poisons are not independent of class and armor balance. Everything is connected, if mechanics are not considered as a complete system, balance will be impossible to achieve. Poisons need to be evaluated in context of all the current gameplay mechanics and balanced accordingly.

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I have to agree that it is a separate issue because yea you can use it somewhat to counter heavy armor, but this completely makes light armor not a viable playstyle at all because light armor users can't block or dodge roll, their defense is tied to casting skills I wouldn't really call that balanced. These poisons will never be balanced as long as they are this strong. Not to mention how strong it is in outnumbered situations

@thankyourat I am not sure I understand. You argue poisons are a separate issue from armor and then argue why it is unbalanced for Light Armor....pick one, it cant be independent and a factor at the same time.

Light armor has a bunch of issues, #100 of which is resource poisons. If anything LA users benefit from widespread poison use as the reduce cost from the LA passives would actually be beneficial compared to constitution.

Poisons are not independent of class and armor balance. Everything is connected, if mechanics are not considered as a complete system, balance will be impossible to achieve. Poisons need to be evaluated in context of all the current gameplay mechanics and balanced accordingly.

Everything is connected but you can't balance resource poisons by saying heavy armor is op so resource poisons counter heavy armor, because it doesn't work like that. If heavy armor is op balance heavy armor, don't add another broken thing and say it's a counter because that hurts Balance even more. That's my argument on why you should balance them separately. Resource poisons also aren't just a counter to heavy armor either it counters everything. Go duel something who uses resource poisons and you can see they are harmful in 1v1 as well. You don't have any resources you are dead. It makes it to where i can't even go out into open world cyrodiil without a Templar to cleanse me. I play solo less and less because the experience isn't as fun as it use to be. It use to be a challenge now it's just impossible. And it doesn't matter if you use them as well, if you are outnumbered these poisons hurt you alot more than the people you are fighting against.

@thankyourat I never suggested that poisons be balanced off of heavy armor. I just provided an example where resource poisons are a viable counter to an increasingly popular play style (e.g. heavy armor) and that nerfing them without adjusting other mechanics is not a practical solution. YOU JUST ADMITTED POISONS AND HEAVY ARMOR IS CONNECTED! So how do you propose you balance something "separately"?

Honestly this makes little to no sense. I am not saying poisons are balanced, I am saying you cant balance one and leave the other alone, it does not bring us anywhere closer to balance. As of now I would argue that poisons still offer a "paper, rock, scissors" form of balance where heavy armor goes relatively unchecked. Reduced cost is one of the few places medium and light really shine and this is further exacerbated by resource poisons, making their proliferation advantageous for two armor classes rendered nonviable (e.g. Light and Medium). In my opinion poisons as they are, bring in MORE relative balance than we would have if they were removed from the game. Are they perfect, hell no, but other things are MUCH, MUCH more broken.

@thankyourat In 1v1 poisons are strong, but less of a factor than when out numbered. At least in 1v1 you can use purge and have a 10 second window before poisons are re-applied. If two people duel with poisons and one is running a cleanse and has magicka sustain, that person will win. If both have cleanse and built for sustain, the battle should be decided based on rotation, as it should be (assuming no proc sets).

You do not need a Templar to cleanse, if you don't use the cleanse provided by the alliance tree that is your decision and you have to live the consequences.

If you are complaining that you cant efficiently 1vX in light armor.....I don't know what to tell you, resource poisons are the LEAST of your worries.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

ha ha this is really funny. Its a fence topic and can be argued from both sides. The only post that actually meant anything here was the fact there is a 10 second poison. I mean really guys how hard is it to recognize the debuff and either purge it or great idea here don't cast.

Yea I'm just not going to cast my shield when I'm getting beat on wearing light armor by all these high damage proc builds. I'll be dead in seconds. But I guess I'm just delaying death anyway because casting shields when poisoned will drain all my magicka anyway

since magic poison increases cost by 60% maybe you might want to use cost reduction CP and glyphs. I mean WTF 60% of 1000 is only 600 making an ability cost 1600. Oh thats right you want to stack damage so you can run around with shields and 1 shot players.......

Look i'm being sarcastic here and the fact of the matter is when this game came out players learned real fast how to build the glass canon builds. I have always said a balanced build tends to survive better in PVP and at this point everyone is finally learning what balance really is and the fact of the matter is we now have sets that allow us to reach that balance more efficiently. Either through sustainability and proc sets or via classic mitigation.

Don't be discouraged this is part of a huge learning curve. Within a few weeks or a month players will have figured it all out and this particular thread will simply pass on to the back pages of the forums.

Thanks for showing you have no idea what you're talking about. Hardened Ward costs 2k, Harness and Healing Ward are about 3k each - that's in light armor with 87 points in cost reduction, putting on a reduce cost glyph gets you 200 cheaper. In heavy armor all those costs are about 700 more.

Telling me to "build balanced" as a counter to poisons? The only way you could try to deal with cost increase poisons is to build so unbalanced that a constant 60% cost increase on all your skills is sustainable. The amount of regen and cost reduction you would have to build for in that case is ludicrous and means that you would lose all your damage and cease to be a threat to anyone.

"Part of a huge learning curve"? Thank you for another disguised "L2P" post, I'm really enjoying seeing the creative lengths people go to these days to spout them in defense of the game's imbalances.

Derra wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

ha ha this is really funny. Its a fence topic and can be argued from both sides. The only post that actually meant anything here was the fact there is a 10 second poison. I mean really guys how hard is it to recognize the debuff and either purge it or great idea here don't cast.

Yea I'm just not going to cast my shield when I'm getting beat on wearing light armor by all these high damage proc builds. I'll be dead in seconds. But I guess I'm just delaying death anyway because casting shields when poisoned will drain all my magicka anyway

since magic poison increases cost by 60% maybe you might want to use cost reduction CP and glyphs. I mean WTF 60% of 1000 is only 600 making an ability cost 1600. Oh thats right you want to stack damage so you can run around with shields and 1 shot players.......

Look i'm being sarcastic here and the fact of the matter is when this game came out players learned real fast how to build the glass canon builds. I have always said a balanced build tends to survive better in PVP and at this point everyone is finally learning what balance really is and the fact of the matter is we now have sets that allow us to reach that balance more efficiently. Either through sustainability and proc sets or via classic mitigation.

Don't be discouraged this is part of a huge learning curve. Within a few weeks or a month players will have figured it all out and this particular thread will simply pass on to the back pages of the forums.

Thanks for showing you have no idea what you're talking about. Hardened Ward costs 2k, Harness and Healing Ward are about 3k each - that's in light armor with 87 points in cost reduction, putting on a reduce cost glyph gets you 200 cheaper. In heavy armor all those costs are about 700 more.

Telling me to "build balanced" as a counter to poisons? The only way you could try to deal with cost increase poisons is to build so unbalanced that a constant 60% cost increase on all your skills is sustainable. The amount of regen and cost reduction you would have to build for in that case is ludicrous and means that you would lose all your damage and cease to be a threat to anyone.

"Part of a huge learning curve"? Thank you for another disguised "L2P" post, I'm really enjoying seeing the creative lengths people go to these days to spout them in defense of the game's imbalances.

Actually poison increased costs are calculated of a spells base magica or stamina cost. Which is one of the reasons why magica poisons are way more effective than stamina ones (stamskills got a 20% base cost decrease at some point).

Basecost hardened ward: 3335
Cost increase by 60%: 2001 magica increase for hardened ward.

Basecost healing ward/ harness magica: 4361
Cost increase by 60%: 2617 magica increase for harness/healing ward.

These are the values that will be added to your current tooltip (except for having cost reduction on jewelry enchanted as these work differently).

There is no way for magica build to built to counter poisons on a balanced build you´re absolutely right with that statement. They have 20% higher base skill cost and the most important tool for pvp sustain (being the unchained passive) has no equivalent for magica.

Edit: On a sidenote - i personally think the most efficient way to run a magica build currently is to build with maelstrom weapons (yay once again) and use resource poisons yourself (because there are no dmg poisons or vaible hybrids available).
While we´re at this though:. Can anyone tell me the reason why we have disease/poison enchantments but not magica dmg poisons?

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Doesnt matter if you build resource management and youre trying to win a fight outnumbered at 1:3 or 1:4 odds and the whole group of majority is using resource poisons keeping them on you the entire time. 60% is huge, and people win just by having numbers staying alive (which just so happens to be extremely easy now with new equipment). These poisons are awful. If you try dueling and one guy is using this and the other isnt, they arent even remotely even.

@FENGRUSH I don't see how you can put out cancer build videos and then argue against poisons. The hypocrisy is amazing. Most proc builds don't actually need to cast skills to do damage, so why are you worried about resources?

EMBRACE THE POISONS.

But seriously, why can't someone slot efficient purge and invest in magicka sustain? I think it is a good thing that cleanses are becoming more important in addition to raw healing power.

Lastly, poisons are the one of the few things that remain effective against heavy armor and poisons allow the reduce cost from medium to really shine, giving medium some degree of usefulness.

Of course tanky players using poisons are difficult to 1vX but this may be a result of the meta that you directly encouraged. Reap what you sow my friend.

Those sets should have been nerfed, and likely will be. They are a completely seperate issue from proc sets. Having purge is not a good response to people trying to fight 5v20 and 20 people slotting resource poisons, they will crush their resources by constantly reapplying even after being purged. Poisons shouldnt be 'a counter to heavy armor'. Heavy armor issues is again... another isolated issue.

Its like saying destro ult is fine because stam has proc sets. You literally will fix nothing if you say one thing is fine because it counters another broken thing.

Saying the issues are separate is a convenient argument, but that fact is everything in linked in PVP, that is why they call it balance.

If you are fighting 5v20, the battle should be decided by well coordinated engagement with your small man to take out as many as possible on the opener. I don't see how you can advocate for 5v20 to win in a direct engagement or when a 5 man squad gets jumped by 20 players. If resource poisons are the deciding factor then I would argue it is not a situation you should win. What are you suggesting?

Lastly, I agree poisons shouldn't be counter for heavy armor, but they are and they work. Especially if you chose to run vitality over a tri-pot.

@FENGRUSH You advocate for balance but insist it should be obtained by people running cheesy builds that frustrate players until ZoS fixes the issue. IF that is the case, then put your money where your mouth is and embrace poisons for the balance they will bring the game when ZoS realizes their mistake. If you don't, that is hypocrisy.

On the 5v20 part - yes, you will hit the group with a big punch and kill people, they will probably ress too. Thats all good and fine - the battle likely wont be decided within a short window. If the fight goes for 3-5mins, and the 20 have poisons, and the 5 have poisons - how will this pan out? The 5 will randomly wound 5 of the 20 players resources through the course of the fight. The 20 are able to reapply poisons over and over and impact the entire group with a heavy level of redundancy. Ultimately, as powerful as these poisons are, that group of fewer numbers will suffer over the course of a fight that isnt decided instantly (think about a fight without proc sets that isnt immediately over).

I mean, youre thinking/discussing the actual numbers here. Lets take another example, 3v6 - relatively even skill level... a bit more in favor of 3. This would assume they balance out a bit in the fight. They all run poisons, but the 3 will suffer tremendously in this scenario. This is comparable to dynamic ult gen being removed. It favors numbers, and its effect is absolutely devastating in a fight.


I dont understand the last part of your post about being a hypocrite. Balance should be obtained by people running cheesy builds? Balance is created by the developers - not people running cheese builds, non cheese builds, or whatever they are doing. That is irrelevant. People making cheesy builds can spread those throughout Cyro much quicker, having the impact felt on a mass scale. The players would figure it out eventually anyway. So... I can embrace poisons... yes. But as I pointed out, if Im fighting outnumbered constantly, embracing those poisons is all good and well, Im going to be poisoned 100% of the fight, and one of my enemies will be poisoned for a fraction of the fight, while the other(s) go unaffected.

I can accept that poisons function this way and the numbers suffer natural disadvantages. I cant accept it if they increase cost by SIXTY PERCENT. Thats absurd.

@FENGRUSH go watch your stam sorc "Wrobel Revenge" video. You clearly state that people should be using proc builds or be at a disadvantage and that it is up to the community to force ZOS to change. Why can't poisons work the same way. IF more people use them, PVP will become even less entertaining forcing ZOS to redesign the mechanic. I just don't see why you made a video advocating for cancer builds, but argue against resource poisons, its hypocritical. Both are doing the same thing, making the game unplayable until ZOS gives us a balanced game.

@FENGRUSH I would argue in a 3v6 of similar skill level the 3-man should NEVER WIN. Resource poison aside, if you are straight up fighting 2v1 vs a skilled opponents in open ground, there is no way you should win. Now if you are using superior positioning and tactics to initiate a fight against a larger "small man", I would say 3 could / should kill 6 without resource poisons becoming a factor.

If ever a small man group is in a prolonged battle against larger numbers the small man should lose, resource poisons aside. Small groups can defeat large ones by coordinating damage to finish targets quickly. If anything YOU SHOULD BE IN FAVOR of resource poisons as a way to minimize the effectiveness of healing bots as you open up combat. You successfully advocated for a nerf to BoL, I would think anything that limits healing effectiveness in PVP you would be in favor for.

Yeah I'm still salty about that 2 patches later....*** was unnecessary and did nothing to curb the healing in Cyrodil. In fact in the same patch, they made healing even better, but I digress. This really isn't about that, It's more about you as a popular streamer talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You JUST complained in another thread that a player should not be able to sustain with 800 regen against several players, here is the link:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/299905/one-shot-nightblade-ganking/p2

Like what the hell are you advocating for? What do you think PVP should be, and how would you get there? All I see from you is complaints about every facet of PVP (survivability, sustain, healing, proc sets etc etc etc.) when they are all a product of each other. How can you argue against 1 broken mechanic, but say that proc sets are ok because "Wrobel" put them in the game. Same is true of resource poisons, HA and major mending.

You will accept 17K burst and major fracture from ransack at 1.7k stam cost, but you cannot accept a 17k and major fracture for 2.7k stam? Why is one ok but the other is not? This is the hypocrisy I am calling you out on.