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What are crown crates? And why all the fuss, are they P2W?
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Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭ComboBreaker88 wrote: »I'll be short because this was already explained on detail on the other threads about the subject.
They make a lot of money with minimum investment when compared to actual content like DLC.
With time, the company makes them their main source of money. The development of content slows down. The development of more things to put in the crates takes priority. The games goes Free-to-Play. The crates become the only source of money. There is little to no new content, players leave. Game dies in a couple of years.
Happened to many games before this one (ZOS even hired the same person who did this in other games). It is just the kind of thing RNG crates are for. A last ditch effort to make as much money as possible before you turn the lights off.
You're joking righy? YOU do realize the game has had 3 dlc zones added since it went F2P compared its 1 when it's was P2P. Not to mention the FREE 1 tameriel update. So thats 4 since the game went F2P. THIS is a business (capitalism is a concept most gamers simply don't seem to understand for some reason.) They NEED to make money to continue making content. They more money they make = the more content that can be produced. And yeah they want to be paid for their work. I doubt you would continue showing up to work if they stopped paying you a good wage. As far as them making a last ditch effort to make money, have you seen their profit margin? The game is doing very well. It's not going anywhere for a long time. I wouldn't be surprised if it surpassed W.O.W. it's a great game and each update has made it better and better. Also many of you seem to not realize this, but you can buy ANYTHING in the store buy simply generating a ticket and requesting said item. If your account has enough to buy that item outright they will exchange it for you. CRATES are a CHANCE to get items at a cheap price. SO quit being a bunch of whinny ******* and do a little research before you start acting like this is going to ruin a game which would do perfectly well if EVERYBODY in the forums quit today and never came back. There are hundreds of thousands of players online, the forum is filled with only a very small fraction of the population.
Most of the content released after the game went B2P was already mostly done during the P2P period. It was just better business to delay them while still charging subscription to fund more content. Then once the game was suffering from lack of content transition to B2P with a plethora of content almost ready to be released, which they could then charge extra for either by a new subscription method or by paid DLC. This does not mean that B2P is a better business model. We wouldn't know since they never intended to keep the game P2P. It was just a way to fund DLC to keep them going once the game was dying. The game is doing great now but I have a feeling that the developers are starting to feel the fire burning their behinds as they slowly run out of pre-developed content from before the ganm was released and during the P2P period. I highly doubt they are developing content as fast as we are playing through it by now. Which makes a future scenario where the developers have to compromise with their ideology with no P2W more likely since investors will want as much money as they can get with no regards to the welfare of the game if they feel it is a sinking ship. But nothing lasts forever so for now we should just enjoy the game and support it as much as possible if we want it to last; like you said yourself.
1 -
Zyrudin✭✭✭✭Hey guys,
I have read arguments for and against the Crown Crates and also the context surrounding their arrival.
It seems evident that funding is at the core of this decision.
I, personally, disagree with real money gambling in a MMO, so I would be leaning against this measure and would tend to agree that it might shift development here instead of actual content.
Now, the question that seems to be missing is: what viable alternatives for funding would be preferable to Crown Crates?
Back to subscription? Something else? I don't know, but I think it might be worth (and generate more productive suggestions, since ZOS does check what is said in the forums) moving the discussion in that direction.0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.
Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.
If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.
The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.
Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.
Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.
Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.
Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.
Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.
As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.
That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.
You have some serious issues when it comes to reading comprehension. The poster youre responding to was obviously speaking about players that stick with the game, in comparison to the players (whom the quoted was speaking of in the sentence just prior to the one you bolded for emphasis) whom wont stick around. So you either are unable to connect the dots or youre purposely trying to twist what was being said.
Quite so, but there is no substantiation provided for the clear implication that some people will buy crates but not stay around long leaving the game in a poor state for the loyal player base. There is no evidence that people buying crates will not stick around long or be part of the loyal player base.Edited by Tandor on November 1, 2016 11:22AM1 -
Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't think the crates will be P2W. It will be more like Pay To Lose. Folks will lose a lot of money buying the crates and finding they got useless junk. If you want to gamble you would get better odds in Vegas.
Many will disagree but just wait until the crates go live then check the forums and see how many folks are complaining about all the useless crap they are getting out of them.Edited by Palidon on November 1, 2016 11:53AM3 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.
Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.
If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.
The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.
Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.
Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.
Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.
Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.
Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.
As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.
That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.
You have some serious issues when it comes to reading comprehension. The poster youre responding to was obviously speaking about players that stick with the game, in comparison to the players (whom the quoted was speaking of in the sentence just prior to the one you bolded for emphasis) whom wont stick around. So you either are unable to connect the dots or youre purposely trying to twist what was being said.
Quite so, but there is no substantiation provided for the clear implication that some people will buy crates but not stay around long leaving the game in a poor state for the loyal player base. There is no evidence that people buying crates will not stick around long or be part of the loyal player base.
That's not relevant to what they were saying. Matt made it clear that they are aiming at the on and off player. They are now adding a "feature" that is almost universally hated by the gaming community. Maybe a handful of crate buyers will be long term players, but the type of players ZOS is catering to and expecting are the MMO Nomads.
I am not spiting them for that, I suppose we long term players are the minority so it makes sense. It is a shame, though, because we end up getting the short end of the stick.
I wish they would at least announce Vvardenfell already so I can know for sure that I will have more content to do soon and have something to look forward to. Not to mention I want to know if the plotline started in the end of Orsinium was abandoned, since it wasn't touched on for the entire year. MMO Nomads won't need overarching plots because they are soon moving on, so a multi-dlc plot would make me feel they remember we long term players are still here.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.2 -
mb10✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭400 of those gems for an atronach mount that is probably absolute BS as far as lore is concerned
lol ZOS dont respect any of us one bit.
They sit in their offices and probably have conversations like "hmm lets say 200 dollars for a suuuper cool mount?"
i wont be spending a single penny on crown crates3 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.
Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.
If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.
The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.
Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.
Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.
Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.
Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.
Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.
As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.
That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.
You have some serious issues when it comes to reading comprehension. The poster youre responding to was obviously speaking about players that stick with the game, in comparison to the players (whom the quoted was speaking of in the sentence just prior to the one you bolded for emphasis) whom wont stick around. So you either are unable to connect the dots or youre purposely trying to twist what was being said.
Quite so, but there is no substantiation provided for the clear implication that some people will buy crates but not stay around long leaving the game in a poor state for the loyal player base. There is no evidence that people buying crates will not stick around long or be part of the loyal player base.
That's not relevant to what they were saying. Matt made it clear that they are aiming at the on and off player. They are now adding a "feature" that is almost universally hated by the gaming community. Maybe a handful of crate buyers will be long term players, but the type of players ZOS is catering to and expecting are the MMO Nomads.
I am not spiting them for that, I suppose we long term players are the minority so it makes sense. It is a shame, though, because we end up getting the short end of the stick.
I wish they would at least announce Vvardenfell already so I can know for sure that I will have more content to do soon and have something to look forward to. Not to mention I want to know if the plotline started in the end of Orsinium was abandoned, since it wasn't touched on for the entire year. MMO Nomads won't need overarching plots because they are soon moving on, so a multi-dlc plot would make me feel they remember we long term players are still here.
Whenever ZOS say anything it is twisted and misinterpreted, hence they don't say a lot and who can blame them? This is no different. Matt was talking about one particular type of long-term player but nowhere did he say or imply that it was the only type of long-term player or that the game was only being directed at that type of long-term player.
Again, there is no evidence that those who will buy crates are not part of the loyal player base.4 -
Kendaric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The problem with the scam crates is mostly that they take control and choice of what we buy out of the player's hand. If they were changed in a way that only the themed items (atronach mounts, the mementos in the first batch of crates) and the retired items were exclusive to them, there would be far less uproar.
Ideally we'd be allowed to trade any item, duplicate or not, for gems. But I doubt they'll do that. As it stands, I'm forced to accept collectibles I do not want to have in order to get those I actually want. And that is pretty much unacceptable for me.Edited by Kendaric on November 1, 2016 12:25PM5 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.
Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.
If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.
The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.
Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.
Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.
Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.
Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.
Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.
As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.
That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.
You have some serious issues when it comes to reading comprehension. The poster youre responding to was obviously speaking about players that stick with the game, in comparison to the players (whom the quoted was speaking of in the sentence just prior to the one you bolded for emphasis) whom wont stick around. So you either are unable to connect the dots or youre purposely trying to twist what was being said.
Quite so, but there is no substantiation provided for the clear implication that some people will buy crates but not stay around long leaving the game in a poor state for the loyal player base. There is no evidence that people buying crates will not stick around long or be part of the loyal player base.
That's not relevant to what they were saying. Matt made it clear that they are aiming at the on and off player. They are now adding a "feature" that is almost universally hated by the gaming community. Maybe a handful of crate buyers will be long term players, but the type of players ZOS is catering to and expecting are the MMO Nomads.
I am not spiting them for that, I suppose we long term players are the minority so it makes sense. It is a shame, though, because we end up getting the short end of the stick.
I wish they would at least announce Vvardenfell already so I can know for sure that I will have more content to do soon and have something to look forward to. Not to mention I want to know if the plotline started in the end of Orsinium was abandoned, since it wasn't touched on for the entire year. MMO Nomads won't need overarching plots because they are soon moving on, so a multi-dlc plot would make me feel they remember we long term players are still here.
Whenever ZOS say anything it is twisted and misinterpreted, hence they don't say a lot and who can blame them? This is no different. Matt was talking about one particular type of long-term player but nowhere did he say or imply that it was the only type of long-term player or that the game was only being directed at that type of long-term player.
Again, there is no evidence that those who will buy crates are not part of the loyal player base.
Belive whatever makes you feel better I guess. It is exactly what he said, not a misinterpretation. This is the kind of player that they are going for. The player who will drop by, eat a small self-contained DLC, buy a few dozen of crates and move on. It has been an entire year and we had no progress on the Daedric War. We went from "4 DLCs a year" to "not all DLCs will be big like Orsinium" and then to "4 updates a year, not necessarily DLC". It is a model for the on-and-off player, like Matt said.
And again, it is irrelevant if a few crate buyers are long-term "loyal" players. It doesn't change the fact that the target audience is the MMO Nomad.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.
Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.
If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.
The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.
Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.
Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.
Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.
Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.
Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.
As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.
That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.
You have some serious issues when it comes to reading comprehension. The poster youre responding to was obviously speaking about players that stick with the game, in comparison to the players (whom the quoted was speaking of in the sentence just prior to the one you bolded for emphasis) whom wont stick around. So you either are unable to connect the dots or youre purposely trying to twist what was being said.
Quite so, but there is no substantiation provided for the clear implication that some people will buy crates but not stay around long leaving the game in a poor state for the loyal player base. There is no evidence that people buying crates will not stick around long or be part of the loyal player base.
That's not relevant to what they were saying. Matt made it clear that they are aiming at the on and off player. They are now adding a "feature" that is almost universally hated by the gaming community. Maybe a handful of crate buyers will be long term players, but the type of players ZOS is catering to and expecting are the MMO Nomads.
I am not spiting them for that, I suppose we long term players are the minority so it makes sense. It is a shame, though, because we end up getting the short end of the stick.
I wish they would at least announce Vvardenfell already so I can know for sure that I will have more content to do soon and have something to look forward to. Not to mention I want to know if the plotline started in the end of Orsinium was abandoned, since it wasn't touched on for the entire year. MMO Nomads won't need overarching plots because they are soon moving on, so a multi-dlc plot would make me feel they remember we long term players are still here.
Whenever ZOS say anything it is twisted and misinterpreted, hence they don't say a lot and who can blame them? This is no different. Matt was talking about one particular type of long-term player but nowhere did he say or imply that it was the only type of long-term player or that the game was only being directed at that type of long-term player.
Again, there is no evidence that those who will buy crates are not part of the loyal player base.
Belive whatever makes you feel better I guess. It is exactly what he said, not a misinterpretation. This is the kind of player that they are going for. The player who will drop by, eat a small self-contained DLC, buy a few dozen of crates and move on. It has been an entire year and we had no progress on the Daedric War. We went from "4 DLCs a year" to "not all DLCs will be big like Orsinium" and then to "4 updates a year, not necessarily DLC". It is a model for the on-and-off player, like Matt said.
And again, it is irrelevant if a few crate buyers are long-term "loyal" players. It doesn't change the fact that the target audience is the MMO Nomad.
...your last part about the DLCs and updates and such....really??? It's like it's already started o.O This is the kind of *** that happens after the crates are installed. Maybe softening the blow now lol?
They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd2 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.
Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.
If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.
The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.
Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.
Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.
Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.
Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.
Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.
As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.
That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.
You have some serious issues when it comes to reading comprehension. The poster youre responding to was obviously speaking about players that stick with the game, in comparison to the players (whom the quoted was speaking of in the sentence just prior to the one you bolded for emphasis) whom wont stick around. So you either are unable to connect the dots or youre purposely trying to twist what was being said.
Quite so, but there is no substantiation provided for the clear implication that some people will buy crates but not stay around long leaving the game in a poor state for the loyal player base. There is no evidence that people buying crates will not stick around long or be part of the loyal player base.
That's not relevant to what they were saying. Matt made it clear that they are aiming at the on and off player. They are now adding a "feature" that is almost universally hated by the gaming community. Maybe a handful of crate buyers will be long term players, but the type of players ZOS is catering to and expecting are the MMO Nomads.
I am not spiting them for that, I suppose we long term players are the minority so it makes sense. It is a shame, though, because we end up getting the short end of the stick.
I wish they would at least announce Vvardenfell already so I can know for sure that I will have more content to do soon and have something to look forward to. Not to mention I want to know if the plotline started in the end of Orsinium was abandoned, since it wasn't touched on for the entire year. MMO Nomads won't need overarching plots because they are soon moving on, so a multi-dlc plot would make me feel they remember we long term players are still here.
Whenever ZOS say anything it is twisted and misinterpreted, hence they don't say a lot and who can blame them? This is no different. Matt was talking about one particular type of long-term player but nowhere did he say or imply that it was the only type of long-term player or that the game was only being directed at that type of long-term player.
Again, there is no evidence that those who will buy crates are not part of the loyal player base.
Belive whatever makes you feel better I guess. It is exactly what he said, not a misinterpretation. This is the kind of player that they are going for. The player who will drop by, eat a small self-contained DLC, buy a few dozen of crates and move on. It has been an entire year and we had no progress on the Daedric War. We went from "4 DLCs a year" to "not all DLCs will be big like Orsinium" and then to "4 updates a year, not necessarily DLC". It is a model for the on-and-off player, like Matt said.
And again, it is irrelevant if a few crate buyers are long-term "loyal" players. It doesn't change the fact that the target audience is the MMO Nomad.
...your last part about the DLCs and updates and such....really??? It's like it's already started o.O This is the kind of *** that happens after the crates are installed. Maybe softening the blow now lol?
The themed mounts that are going to be Apex rewards from the crates were data mined for the first time over a year ago. This decision wasn't taken recently.
Many people believe it is all part of ZOS "master plan", that they intended to make the b2p transition, add crates and make a f2p transition from the start. I am not one of these people, but I can see where they are coming from. I prefer to believe they are trying different things and seeing what sticks. Doesn't make it any less worrying, though.
Just give me Vvardenfell and show me you are still making content, ZOS. Please.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭For the people who want to take a chance on the crown crates, don't worry. It was datamined that you can buy larger amounts of the crates at one time. You can buy a bundle of 16, iirc.
From the drop rates, you might need to pick up more than one bundle if there is a specific costume or mount you want.
The people here who are not thrilled with the idea of the crates aren't the only ones. https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/53pqyj/eso_pts_storm_atronach_bear_mount_and_atronach/
Comments seem to running about the same here. For every one who is thrilled about it, there is at least one against. Many more against, I think. They've seen the youtube vids people who tried them on the pts put up.
I just hope that the perception of this game doesn't ruin the single player Bethesda games. People still associate Bethesda with ESO. From that link
Maaan I was really hoping they weren't going to go full disgusting *** bag woth these crown crates but wow they really did... They found the absolute most disgusting *** way to implement this...
That being said I can't get past the cosmetic aspect.. So just don't have the mount... But good god they officially made this game dirty
5 -
Agobi✭✭✭✭✭
✭It needs to be repeated until everyone realizes that NOT one single game in the history of gaming, NOT ONE, has ever been able to do these kind of crates and not have their game fail. Not one. There is an undeniable pattern to this boxes that they destroy games. Every. Single. Time.
That's why we pop up in these threads. It has nothing to do with gambling (that's a beef with another subset of players), wanting what others have, or being a whiner. We like this game, we don't want it to go down the road that ALL the other games that have done this have.
The Secret World has boxes they call Mystery boxes. Not only does it work, but they report that it is its biggest seller in their in-game store. I sub to TSW as well as this game and I have extra points/crowns to burn. I spend my TSW "points" on the boxes because I am not into clothing or pets.
I do not understand why players would be so upset about them when they are not required to purchase them in order to play. There is nothing inside the boxes that will give them an advantage over another player. If the experience helps them advance through the levels sooner, that does not break the game for any other player. I have a character that I used to play with a friend. Because grouping reduces the amount of experience one gets, I found he fell behind the map level he was playing on. I purchased some experience scrolls to catch him up. No one noticed that I did this because it didn't change a thing for any other player. A couple days passing, after repeatedly dying in a boss fight for a quest, I purchased a bundle that provided a meal that boosted both health and stamina at once. Did anyone notice my using that item? Nope.
If the main concern is that Great items will be dumped in a crate for a great cost, then the answer is don't buy the items at the higher cost. Send a feedback notice to the Devs at that point explaining how you feel. ESO has been really great at giving us what we want. (Happened to check my wish list this morning and realized that only three items on my list were not realized. Awesome work ESO!)
You may have noticed...but the development of TSW has just about stopped completely....except for the montly box,and or recycling of en old event....with a box containg "new" items" once again.....
I am a GM in TSW ,and I still cant bring myself to login anymore with the gambling bag focus being everything
6 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It needs to be repeated until everyone realizes that NOT one single game in the history of gaming, NOT ONE, has ever been able to do these kind of crates and not have their game fail. Not one. There is an undeniable pattern to this boxes that they destroy games. Every. Single. Time.
That's why we pop up in these threads. It has nothing to do with gambling (that's a beef with another subset of players), wanting what others have, or being a whiner. We like this game, we don't want it to go down the road that ALL the other games that have done this have.
The Secret World has boxes they call Mystery boxes. Not only does it work, but they report that it is its biggest seller in their in-game store. I sub to TSW as well as this game and I have extra points/crowns to burn. I spend my TSW "points" on the boxes because I am not into clothing or pets.
I do not understand why players would be so upset about them when they are not required to purchase them in order to play. There is nothing inside the boxes that will give them an advantage over another player. If the experience helps them advance through the levels sooner, that does not break the game for any other player. I have a character that I used to play with a friend. Because grouping reduces the amount of experience one gets, I found he fell behind the map level he was playing on. I purchased some experience scrolls to catch him up. No one noticed that I did this because it didn't change a thing for any other player. A couple days passing, after repeatedly dying in a boss fight for a quest, I purchased a bundle that provided a meal that boosted both health and stamina at once. Did anyone notice my using that item? Nope.
If the main concern is that Great items will be dumped in a crate for a great cost, then the answer is don't buy the items at the higher cost. Send a feedback notice to the Devs at that point explaining how you feel. ESO has been really great at giving us what we want. (Happened to check my wish list this morning and realized that only three items on my list were not realized. Awesome work ESO!)
You may have noticed...but the development of TSW has just about stopped completely....except for the montly box,and or recycling of en old event....with a box containg "new" items" once again.....
I am a GM in TSW ,and I still cant bring myself to login anymore with the gambling bag focus being everything
I don't think you can compare ZOS to a company that is in such desparate financial straits (improving, fortunately) that they have a single team working on all their games. It's a big leap to claim that because TSW is suffering loss of additional content in those circumstances it's because of the boxes.4 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Crown Crates" are a gambling box which will supposedly draw from a pool of cosmetic and convenience items like hats and XP scrolls. So far, players have been able to buy items they want like a normal person, but the developers plan to put exclusive items in the gambling pool that are unavailable to buy regularly. This is a complete divorce from the business model that their entire player base wanted, so people are a little ticked. Some folks also worry about it taking up development time from DLC and B2W items eventually making their way into the gambling pool, since that happens in absolutely every other MMO of this type when gambling boxes are introduced. I myself am skeptical on those points, but the problem of putting exclusive items only available in a gambling pool is awful enough for me to hate the system. It should be scrapped at once.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster6 -
summitxho✭✭✭Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »As for your first question, I never said put out of business completely, but here is a small list of games that took a nosedive in quality after gamble box implementation: SWTOR, ARCHEAGE, LOTRO, TERA, VINDICTUS, NEVER WINTER, STAR TREK ONLINE, PWI AND EVERY TITLE UNDER THEIR BANNER, RUNESCAPE. ALL TITLES UNDER: AERIA GAMES, NEXXONN, TRION, NC SOFT, MY.COM.
This was due to a shift in focus after going to these systems, not the boxes themselves.
I think the main reason why people are concerned (and why i disagree with them) is that they are mixing up cause and effect.
It is not boxes that cause games to fail, it is failing games that implement boxes as a way to try and stay afloat. Boxes are a symptom, rather than the cause, of a game taking a nosedive.
However, that does not mean a developer couldn't implement these boxes in a healthy game, just to give players more options. A failing game may have to implement boxes to stay alive, but a healthy game implementing boxes does not suddenly become a failing one just because it did so. So unless there are more signs of TESO being in danger than just the boxes, i do not think there is a cause for concern for the game's future.
Not all those games were exactly failing when boxes were implemented. What does happen though is that populations do decrease in a very noticeable amount on EVERY single game that has implemented them. Everyone that has at least one working brain cell and has played an MMO for longer than week knows that MMO populations go up and down. This is a given whether it's due to summer or school or whatever. Just as much as that is known as a fact, so is a massive decline of player base following boxes.
Massive decline of player base happens due to the game not being fun for them. As a result, the game loses funding, which the devs try to cover by selling boxes. So you see release of boxes at the same time as the decline in playerbase, but that's a correlation, not causality.
Also: you can not possibly know every game that ever implemented these boxes, nor can you possibly know whether all of them were failing prior to the box release or not(simply because companies keep sub numbers close to the chest). So please stop using that as an argument.
The thing that makes the game unfun are the crates, that's the thing, but not on the way you are saying. It's because of the development shift that causes content drought. That's why people leave, that's what make the game unfun. It is not "Oh no, RNG boxes, I'm totally out" for most people. It is after a year passes and the players have very little new content to enjoy (but hey, there are new mounts in the boxes!), that's when the population - that maybe was on slight decline before, which is natural - really takes the nose dive.
The development shift happens after they are added and are a "success", not instantly. It is because of how lucrative they are, and how much potential they have to become the main source of income in a MMO. And then, the majority of the investment goes back to them, because it's where the money is. Yes, they are usually added when games are in decline, but not as a way to "save them". They are added as a way to make as much money as possible during that decline.
Maybe that's not ESO's case, maybe ESO is not in decline and is adding the crates (and hired a person specialized on F2P transition) because of reasons unknown. Let's buy Matt's speech for a second and say that maybe they were added just like "something new" (which is not an easy claim to make given how they worked on PTS), and not as a last ditch effort to make as much money as they can before the game is abandoned and they move on to another project.
If that's the case, then why are they so consumer unfriendly? Why are 2/3 of the stuff in the crates exclusive to them? Why do you have to drop something five times to be able to buy something of the same tier? It is hard to believe that this is something for the players, really.
If this was a system being added for our benefit, it wouldn't work like this. If this was just to add something new for us to enjoy, they would make the changes we have been suggesting. But they said absolutely nothing regarding them since they were removed from the PTS. I'm waiting to see what the final changes will be, because I never wished so hard that they would prove me wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RidW8C-7eS4
(Yes, I want to believe. It is just hard at this point after we tested them on the PTS and they turned out to actually be worse than I anticipated)
It's literally like people are turning a blind eye to everyone telling them what the actual reason for why they are bad and they're just focusing on the boxes. Like this awesome person that I just quoted understands, it's what comes after....
Because time and time again your stating the fact that these boxes have led to the downfall of games on their own, and I am saying that's your opinion, you have yet to back that up with any actual hard evidence.
There are many reasons why a game dies, mostly due to business. Even if this game is making money 10 years from now, do you think it would make them as much money as rolling out an eso2? The game has a lifespan, ZOS is going to milk it as much as they can in that lifespan, but where is the evidence the game is being abandoned with the introduction of these crates? Its marketing 101, you support your product until it becomes stale and outdated and you come up with something new, in that time you make as much money as you can and do your best to keep your customer happy so they come back in future series. You have yet to show me any kind of proof these crates hurt a game other that the same old argument, "well I played every MMO game known to man, and every time I see this, the game dies" that's not a fact at this point, thats your opinion, your not privy to the details, the numbers, the statistics, every tool a company should weigh before making a decision, people here act like they know better than a multi million dollar game studio, most likely you do not.
Sorry, but a person doesn't have to have exact subscription numbers to know if an MMO is on the rocks or not. You may not have been there, but I was there for SWG's NGE back in 2005. SOE did not give actual numbers for years after losing 2/3rds of their playerbase (or 200,000+ that beat feet) but EVERYONE in the game knew very well what was happening. We could tell via population, we could tell via "goodbye" mails, and we could tell simply by trying to get a group, for anything.
I seen STO and their route with lockboxes 1st hand. Beta vet there (and here as well). Seen entire guilds take off, got those goodbye mails yet again when all the P2W started. The problem there is Cryptic said the same things as here, "just cosmetics and convenience items" but the problem there was, no1 bought the cosmetics and convenience items. So, they re-grouped and figured out that P2W items sold very well. Then, the in-game population went to shreds, so their answer was, to raise the prices. Take a good look over there at their store, want a $200.00+ ship, You can have one or three, and Cryptic will thank you for your contribution.
The people in ESO who still want this game to be as good as you think it is better hope and pray that these cosmetic/convenience items sell and sell well. If they don't they'll spice them up accordingly. Don't believe me? Take a good look at how easy it was to come up with the plan to up the stats, and OVER, the consumables, and maybe they'll put in a couple more recipes that are as good as, they were including in these crates now. And then you can yell P2W at the top of your lungs and the devs will just say something to the effect of "yeah, so what?" or "I'm not here to discuss the way we make our money" as they do at STO.
It's always great to have a developer come to the PVP forums as say "we could take PVP out of the game and no1 would even notice". That happened at STO and the crates, errrrr, lockboxes were the single cause of it.
Oh btw, our entire ESO guild LEFT this game over just the announcement and went to a game that WE have TOTAL control over, and it's a MMORPG too, with skillboxes, player housing/cities, most everything that is here and in fact, more. And just about everything that is decent in this game (ESO) is bound so, I'm sorry, I just can't give you my stuff.
Well then sorry, I don't just blindly believe people based on their own experience as its subjective as per your goals as a player, I use facts in my decisions, and I have yet to see a fact where a gambling crate ruins a game, as stated before by another poster you could very easily be confusing cause and effect as far as I am concerned. The problem with believing other people on their own experience is human emotion, you start getting angry at the game over time for various moves, then a final move is made that breaks the straw for you, you blame leaving on that final straw since that is what your currently most emotional about, but in reality there was more going on you were unhappy with and you would probably have left anyways. Its humanity.
So your telling me that your guild and yourself are leaving over loot crates and loot crates alone? From a brief look at your post history it seems you were upset with a few aspects of the game. What is more likely, your quitting over loot crates, or your quitting over the direction of the game and loot crates was your final straw? The latter would mean that its not crown crates that did it in at all. If your quitting over crown crates, well all the power to you, I will still be enjoying the game for some time to come because its elder scrolls, and I have yet to see any changes which effect my enjoyment for the game. At all.1 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It needs to be repeated until everyone realizes that NOT one single game in the history of gaming, NOT ONE, has ever been able to do these kind of crates and not have their game fail. Not one. There is an undeniable pattern to this boxes that they destroy games. Every. Single. Time.
That's why we pop up in these threads. It has nothing to do with gambling (that's a beef with another subset of players), wanting what others have, or being a whiner. We like this game, we don't want it to go down the road that ALL the other games that have done this have.
The Secret World has boxes they call Mystery boxes. Not only does it work, but they report that it is its biggest seller in their in-game store. I sub to TSW as well as this game and I have extra points/crowns to burn. I spend my TSW "points" on the boxes because I am not into clothing or pets.
I do not understand why players would be so upset about them when they are not required to purchase them in order to play. There is nothing inside the boxes that will give them an advantage over another player. If the experience helps them advance through the levels sooner, that does not break the game for any other player. I have a character that I used to play with a friend. Because grouping reduces the amount of experience one gets, I found he fell behind the map level he was playing on. I purchased some experience scrolls to catch him up. No one noticed that I did this because it didn't change a thing for any other player. A couple days passing, after repeatedly dying in a boss fight for a quest, I purchased a bundle that provided a meal that boosted both health and stamina at once. Did anyone notice my using that item? Nope.
If the main concern is that Great items will be dumped in a crate for a great cost, then the answer is don't buy the items at the higher cost. Send a feedback notice to the Devs at that point explaining how you feel. ESO has been really great at giving us what we want. (Happened to check my wish list this morning and realized that only three items on my list were not realized. Awesome work ESO!)
You may have noticed...but the development of TSW has just about stopped completely....except for the montly box,and or recycling of en old event....with a box containg "new" items" once again.....
I am a GM in TSW ,and I still cant bring myself to login anymore with the gambling bag focus being everything
I don't think you can compare ZOS to a company that is in such desparate financial straits (improving, fortunately) that they have a single team working on all their games. It's a big leap to claim that because TSW is suffering loss of additional content in those circumstances it's because of the boxes.
Bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Though if boxes are a symptom of financial problems and/or slowing development rather than the cause, that might be worse.Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●1 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »As for your first question, I never said put out of business completely, but here is a small list of games that took a nosedive in quality after gamble box implementation: SWTOR, ARCHEAGE, LOTRO, TERA, VINDICTUS, NEVER WINTER, STAR TREK ONLINE, PWI AND EVERY TITLE UNDER THEIR BANNER, RUNESCAPE. ALL TITLES UNDER: AERIA GAMES, NEXXONN, TRION, NC SOFT, MY.COM.
This was due to a shift in focus after going to these systems, not the boxes themselves.
I think the main reason why people are concerned (and why i disagree with them) is that they are mixing up cause and effect.
It is not boxes that cause games to fail, it is failing games that implement boxes as a way to try and stay afloat. Boxes are a symptom, rather than the cause, of a game taking a nosedive.
However, that does not mean a developer couldn't implement these boxes in a healthy game, just to give players more options. A failing game may have to implement boxes to stay alive, but a healthy game implementing boxes does not suddenly become a failing one just because it did so. So unless there are more signs of TESO being in danger than just the boxes, i do not think there is a cause for concern for the game's future.
Not all those games were exactly failing when boxes were implemented. What does happen though is that populations do decrease in a very noticeable amount on EVERY single game that has implemented them. Everyone that has at least one working brain cell and has played an MMO for longer than week knows that MMO populations go up and down. This is a given whether it's due to summer or school or whatever. Just as much as that is known as a fact, so is a massive decline of player base following boxes.
Massive decline of player base happens due to the game not being fun for them. As a result, the game loses funding, which the devs try to cover by selling boxes. So you see release of boxes at the same time as the decline in playerbase, but that's a correlation, not causality.
Also: you can not possibly know every game that ever implemented these boxes, nor can you possibly know whether all of them were failing prior to the box release or not(simply because companies keep sub numbers close to the chest). So please stop using that as an argument.
The thing that makes the game unfun are the crates, that's the thing, but not on the way you are saying. It's because of the development shift that causes content drought. That's why people leave, that's what make the game unfun. It is not "Oh no, RNG boxes, I'm totally out" for most people. It is after a year passes and the players have very little new content to enjoy (but hey, there are new mounts in the boxes!), that's when the population - that maybe was on slight decline before, which is natural - really takes the nose dive.
The development shift happens after they are added and are a "success", not instantly. It is because of how lucrative they are, and how much potential they have to become the main source of income in a MMO. And then, the majority of the investment goes back to them, because it's where the money is. Yes, they are usually added when games are in decline, but not as a way to "save them". They are added as a way to make as much money as possible during that decline.
Maybe that's not ESO's case, maybe ESO is not in decline and is adding the crates (and hired a person specialized on F2P transition) because of reasons unknown. Let's buy Matt's speech for a second and say that maybe they were added just like "something new" (which is not an easy claim to make given how they worked on PTS), and not as a last ditch effort to make as much money as they can before the game is abandoned and they move on to another project.
If that's the case, then why are they so consumer unfriendly? Why are 2/3 of the stuff in the crates exclusive to them? Why do you have to drop something five times to be able to buy something of the same tier? It is hard to believe that this is something for the players, really.
If this was a system being added for our benefit, it wouldn't work like this. If this was just to add something new for us to enjoy, they would make the changes we have been suggesting. But they said absolutely nothing regarding them since they were removed from the PTS. I'm waiting to see what the final changes will be, because I never wished so hard that they would prove me wrong.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RidW8C-7eS4
(Yes, I want to believe. It is just hard at this point after we tested them on the PTS and they turned out to actually be worse than I anticipated)
It's literally like people are turning a blind eye to everyone telling them what the actual reason for why they are bad and they're just focusing on the boxes. Like this awesome person that I just quoted understands, it's what comes after....
Because time and time again your stating the fact that these boxes have led to the downfall of games on their own, and I am saying that's your opinion, you have yet to back that up with any actual hard evidence.
There are many reasons why a game dies, mostly due to business. Even if this game is making money 10 years from now, do you think it would make them as much money as rolling out an eso2? The game has a lifespan, ZOS is going to milk it as much as they can in that lifespan, but where is the evidence the game is being abandoned with the introduction of these crates? Its marketing 101, you support your product until it becomes stale and outdated and you come up with something new, in that time you make as much money as you can and do your best to keep your customer happy so they come back in future series. You have yet to show me any kind of proof these crates hurt a game other that the same old argument, "well I played every MMO game known to man, and every time I see this, the game dies" that's not a fact at this point, thats your opinion, your not privy to the details, the numbers, the statistics, every tool a company should weigh before making a decision, people here act like they know better than a multi million dollar game studio, most likely you do not.
Sorry, but a person doesn't have to have exact subscription numbers to know if an MMO is on the rocks or not. You may not have been there, but I was there for SWG's NGE back in 2005. SOE did not give actual numbers for years after losing 2/3rds of their playerbase (or 200,000+ that beat feet) but EVERYONE in the game knew very well what was happening. We could tell via population, we could tell via "goodbye" mails, and we could tell simply by trying to get a group, for anything.
I seen STO and their route with lockboxes 1st hand. Beta vet there (and here as well). Seen entire guilds take off, got those goodbye mails yet again when all the P2W started. The problem there is Cryptic said the same things as here, "just cosmetics and convenience items" but the problem there was, no1 bought the cosmetics and convenience items. So, they re-grouped and figured out that P2W items sold very well. Then, the in-game population went to shreds, so their answer was, to raise the prices. Take a good look over there at their store, want a $200.00+ ship, You can have one or three, and Cryptic will thank you for your contribution.
The people in ESO who still want this game to be as good as you think it is better hope and pray that these cosmetic/convenience items sell and sell well. If they don't they'll spice them up accordingly. Don't believe me? Take a good look at how easy it was to come up with the plan to up the stats, and OVER, the consumables, and maybe they'll put in a couple more recipes that are as good as, they were including in these crates now. And then you can yell P2W at the top of your lungs and the devs will just say something to the effect of "yeah, so what?" or "I'm not here to discuss the way we make our money" as they do at STO.
It's always great to have a developer come to the PVP forums as say "we could take PVP out of the game and no1 would even notice". That happened at STO and the crates, errrrr, lockboxes were the single cause of it.
Oh btw, our entire ESO guild LEFT this game over just the announcement and went to a game that WE have TOTAL control over, and it's a MMORPG too, with skillboxes, player housing/cities, most everything that is here and in fact, more. And just about everything that is decent in this game (ESO) is bound so, I'm sorry, I just can't give you my stuff.
Well then sorry, I don't just blindly believe people based on their own experience as its subjective as per your goals as a player, I use facts in my decisions, and I have yet to see a fact where a gambling crate ruins a game, as stated before by another poster you could very easily be confusing cause and effect as far as I am concerned. The problem with believing other people on their own experience is human emotion, you start getting angry at the game over time for various moves, then a final move is made that breaks the straw for you, you blame leaving on that final straw since that is what your currently most emotional about, but in reality there was more going on you were unhappy with and you would probably have left anyways. Its humanity.
So your telling me that your guild and yourself are leaving over loot crates and loot crates alone? From a brief look at your post history it seems you were upset with a few aspects of the game. What is more likely, your quitting over loot crates, or your quitting over the direction of the game and loot crates was your final straw? The latter would mean that its not crown crates that did it in at all. If your quitting over crown crates, well all the power to you, I will still be enjoying the game for some time to come because its elder scrolls, and I have yet to see any changes which effect my enjoyment for the game. At all.
You don't believe people??? You have multiple people across varying platforms of communication talking about how crates destroyed game X who don't even know each other. You think it's coincidence that all these people can pinpoint when the game they played went into the gutter and the cause is always the boxes? It's either every last one of us is in on this together spreading our hatred across the interwebs or just maybe there's a reason we are all against it.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd2 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just seen another topic where a former subscriber was emailed saying buy 3 months sub get 1 month free. Another sign of financial problems, to me anyway.
On the topic of boxes - ~9 months ago Z0$ employee stated to a question posed by a player of ESO: "We have no plans of adding gamble boxes". Now gamble boxes are here.
Once they generate little cash because they shafted players on the PTS and the chance to play with a new cosmetic on a broken game wears on people, better and more substantial rewards will be added, small at first, then better items added weighted against the increased revenue.
Take the current EXP potions debate also. Buy a potion thats better than you can make. But if you wear all training gear you come out better. Fact remains, when Z0$ introduce blue crown store food @ +6k Health/+6K stam and everyone is in uproar on P2W, the argument will be made sure EXP potions were better than you can make +(any other amount of intelligent small upgraded crown store items).
TESO is surely going P2W. Its only a matter of time. The amount of unaddressed issues grows with every new rushed out DLC, lack of enforcement of their own TOS, lack of transparency on anything, way too many maintenance's then a follow up emergency maintenance to either rollback or fix mistakes made in first maintenance and for me personally, need more Z0$ on forums. Cheating topic is blatantly avoided by Z0$, questions tagging employees in looking for resolution go ignored, it is truly a disgrace.
I also cant pinpoint whether this is all caused by lack of professionalism, incompetence or simply a lack of funds.1 -
summitxho✭✭✭Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »As for your first question, I never said put out of business completely, but here is a small list of games that took a nosedive in quality after gamble box implementation: SWTOR, ARCHEAGE, LOTRO, TERA, VINDICTUS, NEVER WINTER, STAR TREK ONLINE, PWI AND EVERY TITLE UNDER THEIR BANNER, RUNESCAPE. ALL TITLES UNDER: AERIA GAMES, NEXXONN, TRION, NC SOFT, MY.COM.
This was due to a shift in focus after going to these systems, not the boxes themselves.
I think the main reason why people are concerned (and why i disagree with them) is that they are mixing up cause and effect.
It is not boxes that cause games to fail, it is failing games that implement boxes as a way to try and stay afloat. Boxes are a symptom, rather than the cause, of a game taking a nosedive.
However, that does not mean a developer couldn't implement these boxes in a healthy game, just to give players more options. A failing game may have to implement boxes to stay alive, but a healthy game implementing boxes does not suddenly become a failing one just because it did so. So unless there are more signs of TESO being in danger than just the boxes, i do not think there is a cause for concern for the game's future.
Not all those games were exactly failing when boxes were implemented. What does happen though is that populations do decrease in a very noticeable amount on EVERY single game that has implemented them. Everyone that has at least one working brain cell and has played an MMO for longer than week knows that MMO populations go up and down. This is a given whether it's due to summer or school or whatever. Just as much as that is known as a fact, so is a massive decline of player base following boxes.
Massive decline of player base happens due to the game not being fun for them. As a result, the game loses funding, which the devs try to cover by selling boxes. So you see release of boxes at the same time as the decline in playerbase, but that's a correlation, not causality.
Also: you can not possibly know every game that ever implemented these boxes, nor can you possibly know whether all of them were failing prior to the box release or not(simply because companies keep sub numbers close to the chest). So please stop using that as an argument.
The thing that makes the game unfun are the crates, that's the thing, but not on the way you are saying. It's because of the development shift that causes content drought. That's why people leave, that's what make the game unfun. It is not "Oh no, RNG boxes, I'm totally out" for most people. It is after a year passes and the players have very little new content to enjoy (but hey, there are new mounts in the boxes!), that's when the population - that maybe was on slight decline before, which is natural - really takes the nose dive.
The development shift happens after they are added and are a "success", not instantly. It is because of how lucrative they are, and how much potential they have to become the main source of income in a MMO. And then, the majority of the investment goes back to them, because it's where the money is. Yes, they are usually added when games are in decline, but not as a way to "save them". They are added as a way to make as much money as possible during that decline.
Maybe that's not ESO's case, maybe ESO is not in decline and is adding the crates (and hired a person specialized on F2P transition) because of reasons unknown. Let's buy Matt's speech for a second and say that maybe they were added just like "something new" (which is not an easy claim to make given how they worked on PTS), and not as a last ditch effort to make as much money as they can before the game is abandoned and they move on to another project.
If that's the case, then why are they so consumer unfriendly? Why are 2/3 of the stuff in the crates exclusive to them? Why do you have to drop something five times to be able to buy something of the same tier? It is hard to believe that this is something for the players, really.
If this was a system being added for our benefit, it wouldn't work like this. If this was just to add something new for us to enjoy, they would make the changes we have been suggesting. But they said absolutely nothing regarding them since they were removed from the PTS. I'm waiting to see what the final changes will be, because I never wished so hard that they would prove me wrong.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RidW8C-7eS4
(Yes, I want to believe. It is just hard at this point after we tested them on the PTS and they turned out to actually be worse than I anticipated)
It's literally like people are turning a blind eye to everyone telling them what the actual reason for why they are bad and they're just focusing on the boxes. Like this awesome person that I just quoted understands, it's what comes after....
Because time and time again your stating the fact that these boxes have led to the downfall of games on their own, and I am saying that's your opinion, you have yet to back that up with any actual hard evidence.
There are many reasons why a game dies, mostly due to business. Even if this game is making money 10 years from now, do you think it would make them as much money as rolling out an eso2? The game has a lifespan, ZOS is going to milk it as much as they can in that lifespan, but where is the evidence the game is being abandoned with the introduction of these crates? Its marketing 101, you support your product until it becomes stale and outdated and you come up with something new, in that time you make as much money as you can and do your best to keep your customer happy so they come back in future series. You have yet to show me any kind of proof these crates hurt a game other that the same old argument, "well I played every MMO game known to man, and every time I see this, the game dies" that's not a fact at this point, thats your opinion, your not privy to the details, the numbers, the statistics, every tool a company should weigh before making a decision, people here act like they know better than a multi million dollar game studio, most likely you do not.
Sorry, but a person doesn't have to have exact subscription numbers to know if an MMO is on the rocks or not. You may not have been there, but I was there for SWG's NGE back in 2005. SOE did not give actual numbers for years after losing 2/3rds of their playerbase (or 200,000+ that beat feet) but EVERYONE in the game knew very well what was happening. We could tell via population, we could tell via "goodbye" mails, and we could tell simply by trying to get a group, for anything.
I seen STO and their route with lockboxes 1st hand. Beta vet there (and here as well). Seen entire guilds take off, got those goodbye mails yet again when all the P2W started. The problem there is Cryptic said the same things as here, "just cosmetics and convenience items" but the problem there was, no1 bought the cosmetics and convenience items. So, they re-grouped and figured out that P2W items sold very well. Then, the in-game population went to shreds, so their answer was, to raise the prices. Take a good look over there at their store, want a $200.00+ ship, You can have one or three, and Cryptic will thank you for your contribution.
The people in ESO who still want this game to be as good as you think it is better hope and pray that these cosmetic/convenience items sell and sell well. If they don't they'll spice them up accordingly. Don't believe me? Take a good look at how easy it was to come up with the plan to up the stats, and OVER, the consumables, and maybe they'll put in a couple more recipes that are as good as, they were including in these crates now. And then you can yell P2W at the top of your lungs and the devs will just say something to the effect of "yeah, so what?" or "I'm not here to discuss the way we make our money" as they do at STO.
It's always great to have a developer come to the PVP forums as say "we could take PVP out of the game and no1 would even notice". That happened at STO and the crates, errrrr, lockboxes were the single cause of it.
Oh btw, our entire ESO guild LEFT this game over just the announcement and went to a game that WE have TOTAL control over, and it's a MMORPG too, with skillboxes, player housing/cities, most everything that is here and in fact, more. And just about everything that is decent in this game (ESO) is bound so, I'm sorry, I just can't give you my stuff.
Well then sorry, I don't just blindly believe people based on their own experience as its subjective as per your goals as a player, I use facts in my decisions, and I have yet to see a fact where a gambling crate ruins a game, as stated before by another poster you could very easily be confusing cause and effect as far as I am concerned. The problem with believing other people on their own experience is human emotion, you start getting angry at the game over time for various moves, then a final move is made that breaks the straw for you, you blame leaving on that final straw since that is what your currently most emotional about, but in reality there was more going on you were unhappy with and you would probably have left anyways. Its humanity.
So your telling me that your guild and yourself are leaving over loot crates and loot crates alone? From a brief look at your post history it seems you were upset with a few aspects of the game. What is more likely, your quitting over loot crates, or your quitting over the direction of the game and loot crates was your final straw? The latter would mean that its not crown crates that did it in at all. If your quitting over crown crates, well all the power to you, I will still be enjoying the game for some time to come because its elder scrolls, and I have yet to see any changes which effect my enjoyment for the game. At all.
You don't believe people??? You have multiple people across varying platforms of communication talking about how crates destroyed game X who don't even know each other. You think it's coincidence that all these people can pinpoint when the game they played went into the gutter and the cause is always the boxes? It's either every last one of us is in on this together spreading our hatred across the interwebs or just maybe there's a reason we are all against it.
I also see people in here who don't care, or are for them, so are these people to be ignored? Some of these people have come from other MMO's just the same, so I am to ignore them and follow the drama of "oh no's dis going to ruin the game"? Give me a break, I make my own decisions based on facts, I don't follow others, I am not a sheep who follows the flock, I gather facts and make an educated decision, don't see why that is so hard for you to understand.... I think its just a passionate part of the game, those that are most invested and passionate will yell and scream the loudest, and I think its utterly ridiculous that its about having cosmetic accessories, since as of now that is the only thing that is stated by ZOS, everything else is looking into a crystal ball despite how badly you want to tell me its true, but hey that's me.Edited by summitxho on November 1, 2016 5:53PM2 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I just seen another topic where a former subscriber was emailed saying buy 3 months sub get 1 month free. Another sign of financial problems, to me anyway.
On the topic of boxes - ~9 months ago Z0$ employee stated to a question posed by a player of ESO: "We have no plans of adding gamble boxes". Now gamble boxes are here.
Once they generate little cash because they shafted players on the PTS and the chance to play with a new cosmetic on a broken game wears on people, better and more substantial rewards will be added, small at first, then better items added weighted against the increased revenue.
Take the current EXP potions debate also. Buy a potion thats better than you can make. But if you wear all training gear you come out better. Fact remains, when Z0$ introduce blue crown store food @ +6k Health/+6K stam and everyone is in uproar on P2W, the argument will be made sure EXP potions were better than you can make +(any other amount of intelligent small upgraded crown store items).
TESO is surely going P2W. Its only a matter of time. The amount of unaddressed issues grows with every new rushed out DLC, lack of enforcement of their own TOS, lack of transparency on anything, way too many maintenance's then a follow up emergency maintenance to either rollback or fix mistakes made in first maintenance and for me personally, need more Z0$ on forums. Cheating topic is blatantly avoided by Z0$, questions tagging employees in looking for resolution go ignored, it is truly a disgrace.
I also cant pinpoint whether this is all caused by lack of professionalism, incompetence or simply a lack of funds.
They've offered the deal on the sub buy x months get one before. Usually when they're trying to convince someone to keep their sub.
I found the quote and posted it in another thread. Gina never said there would be no rng boxes. What was said was "We have no plans to add locked rng boxes." And they haven't and, at this point, from what's been said and shown on the pts, they won't. The rng boxes aren't locked. You just have to buy them and you can open them. No locks. No keys. At least so far.
Technicalities and semantics, true. They haven't lied. There are no locked rng boxes being planned...so far.
1 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!
I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.
Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!
Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.
To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.Edited by NeillMcAttack on November 1, 2016 6:10PMPC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.4 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!
I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.
Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!
Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.
To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.
Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.1 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!
I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.
Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!
Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.
To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.
Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.
So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.0 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭It needs to be repeated until everyone realizes that NOT one single game in the history of gaming, NOT ONE, has ever been able to do these kind of crates and not have their game fail. Not one. There is an undeniable pattern to this boxes that they destroy games. Every. Single. Time.
That's why we pop up in these threads. It has nothing to do with gambling (that's a beef with another subset of players), wanting what others have, or being a whiner. We like this game, we don't want it to go down the road that ALL the other games that have done this have.
The Secret World has boxes they call Mystery boxes. Not only does it work, but they report that it is its biggest seller in their in-game store. I sub to TSW as well as this game and I have extra points/crowns to burn. I spend my TSW "points" on the boxes because I am not into clothing or pets.
I do not understand why players would be so upset about them when they are not required to purchase them in order to play. There is nothing inside the boxes that will give them an advantage over another player. If the experience helps them advance through the levels sooner, that does not break the game for any other player. I have a character that I used to play with a friend. Because grouping reduces the amount of experience one gets, I found he fell behind the map level he was playing on. I purchased some experience scrolls to catch him up. No one noticed that I did this because it didn't change a thing for any other player. A couple days passing, after repeatedly dying in a boss fight for a quest, I purchased a bundle that provided a meal that boosted both health and stamina at once. Did anyone notice my using that item? Nope.
If the main concern is that Great items will be dumped in a crate for a great cost, then the answer is don't buy the items at the higher cost. Send a feedback notice to the Devs at that point explaining how you feel. ESO has been really great at giving us what we want. (Happened to check my wish list this morning and realized that only three items on my list were not realized. Awesome work ESO!)
You may have noticed...but the development of TSW has just about stopped completely....except for the montly box,and or recycling of en old event....with a box containg "new" items" once again.....
I am a GM in TSW ,and I still cant bring myself to login anymore with the gambling bag focus being everything
I do not play TSW as much as I once did, but it is because of the focus on grouping. (I don't group much because of the amount of time it takes to pull groups together or actually clear a dungeon with a PuG.) I enjoy the Mystery boxes and still buy them with my points. TSW has never been good at kicking out new content...but they are still kicking and there are many things about that game that I still enjoy.
If you are a GM in TSW, should you not be over there assisting and guiding? They've a grand community group event going on currently.1 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
I still wonder: How is that play-to-win? How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?
In MMOs (at least those that are not co-operative based) a player can choose who they interact with. Are we concerned that powerful items will be presented outside out personal reach? Are we festering over the concept that someone might have something that we don't or cannot?0 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭"Crown Crates" are a gambling box which will supposedly draw from a pool of cosmetic and convenience items like hats and XP scrolls. So far, players have been able to buy items they want like a normal person, but the developers plan to put exclusive items in the gambling pool that are unavailable to buy regularly. This is a complete divorce from the business model that their entire player base wanted, so people are a little ticked. Some folks also worry about it taking up development time from DLC and B2W items eventually making their way into the gambling pool, since that happens in absolutely every other MMO of this type when gambling boxes are introduced. I myself am skeptical on those points, but the problem of putting exclusive items only available in a gambling pool is awful enough for me to hate the system. It should be scrapped at once.
If the issues is putting exclusive items into the Crown crates, would it not be a more focused campaign to express a dislike for that concept alone rather than negate the idea of Crown crates completely. Saying: "Crown Crates are fine for those that like to use them, but let us avoid the economic hindrances of placing exclusive items into the boxes," would like gain more support than hating on the concept as a whole.2 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Crown Crates" are a gambling box which will supposedly draw from a pool of cosmetic and convenience items like hats and XP scrolls. So far, players have been able to buy items they want like a normal person, but the developers plan to put exclusive items in the gambling pool that are unavailable to buy regularly. This is a complete divorce from the business model that their entire player base wanted, so people are a little ticked. Some folks also worry about it taking up development time from DLC and B2W items eventually making their way into the gambling pool, since that happens in absolutely every other MMO of this type when gambling boxes are introduced. I myself am skeptical on those points, but the problem of putting exclusive items only available in a gambling pool is awful enough for me to hate the system. It should be scrapped at once.
If the issues is putting exclusive items into the Crown crates, would it not be a more focused campaign to express a dislike for that concept alone rather than negate the idea of Crown crates completely. Saying: "Crown Crates are fine for those that like to use them, but let us avoid the economic hindrances of placing exclusive items into the boxes," would like gain more support than hating on the concept as a whole.
We have been saying that too (well, not exactly that, more like "if they are coming anyway, at least change them to be less awful").
If the Crown Crates do not have exclusives, they won't net ZOS nearly as much money because less people are going to buy them. Therefore, they might not become the main source of money for the game, and then maybe the focus of the development of the game won't shift to developing more stuff to put in the crates. While not better than just not adding them, which would avoid it entirely, it still offers the game a better chance to not end up like the many MMOs before it.
Dominoid made a good post on it on Reddit right after the crates were put in the PTS about the changes that need to be made before the system goes live.Edited by Abeille on November 1, 2016 7:31PMJust so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.2 -
Agobi✭✭✭✭✭
✭It needs to be repeated until everyone realizes that NOT one single game in the history of gaming, NOT ONE, has ever been able to do these kind of crates and not have their game fail. Not one. There is an undeniable pattern to this boxes that they destroy games. Every. Single. Time.
That's why we pop up in these threads. It has nothing to do with gambling (that's a beef with another subset of players), wanting what others have, or being a whiner. We like this game, we don't want it to go down the road that ALL the other games that have done this have.
The Secret World has boxes they call Mystery boxes. Not only does it work, but they report that it is its biggest seller in their in-game store. I sub to TSW as well as this game and I have extra points/crowns to burn. I spend my TSW "points" on the boxes because I am not into clothing or pets.
I do not understand why players would be so upset about them when they are not required to purchase them in order to play. There is nothing inside the boxes that will give them an advantage over another player. If the experience helps them advance through the levels sooner, that does not break the game for any other player. I have a character that I used to play with a friend. Because grouping reduces the amount of experience one gets, I found he fell behind the map level he was playing on. I purchased some experience scrolls to catch him up. No one noticed that I did this because it didn't change a thing for any other player. A couple days passing, after repeatedly dying in a boss fight for a quest, I purchased a bundle that provided a meal that boosted both health and stamina at once. Did anyone notice my using that item? Nope.
If the main concern is that Great items will be dumped in a crate for a great cost, then the answer is don't buy the items at the higher cost. Send a feedback notice to the Devs at that point explaining how you feel. ESO has been really great at giving us what we want. (Happened to check my wish list this morning and realized that only three items on my list were not realized. Awesome work ESO!)
You may have noticed...but the development of TSW has just about stopped completely....except for the montly box,and or recycling of en old event....with a box containg "new" items" once again.....
I am a GM in TSW ,and I still cant bring myself to login anymore with the gambling bag focus being everything
I do not play TSW as much as I once did, but it is because of the focus on grouping. (I don't group much because of the amount of time it takes to pull groups together or actually clear a dungeon with a PuG.) I enjoy the Mystery boxes and still buy them with my points. TSW has never been good at kicking out new content...but they are still kicking and there are many things about that game that I still enjoy.
If you are a GM in TSW, should you not be over there assisting and guiding? They've a grand community group event going on currently.
I did log in....opened in the store..."oh look some new rng boxes...."
Wondered if I should do the halloween thingy...which again rewards....an rng box...
Or spend some of my thousands of saved points on....rng boxes.
Or save them for christmas event...which will add some more rng boxes.....
Starting to see the pattern yet?
Logged out 3 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
There are leader boards, as well as the general sense of competition between players.
How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
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