So many tanking sets.. drool

CreepyPahuska · October 2016

Can you please just stop with this permadrain nonsense ? You said yourself that you'd need the ulti from SnB to be able to spam this so what's the plan ? Build ulti with drain to spend it in SnB ulti, in order to be able to drain to build ulti to spend in SnB Ulti, that will allow you to Drain, ... ? Dude please, you simply don't spam a 3s cast time ability as a tank. If you think it's the only thing a tank must do, you are living on another planet (or even another dimension...).

You know, whenever someone asks anything about tanks on this forum, 90% of the answers are some sort of "go DK coz DK best coz DK chain and DK permablock and DK lolz" bull****. Yet, somehow you managed to gather the most openminded players of the forum on your thread, and the only thing you do is spitting your venom to their face, calling them worshipers of Molag Youtube, Daedric Prince of Metas, just because they refuse to worship you... so please, just answer this : What the hell is wrong with you ?

PS : By the way guys, I got a youtube channel with half a dozen of tanking videos, feel free to worship me

#troll

WalksonGraves · October 2016

Give me one good reason why you should not use the highest ult generator/self heal in the entire game.
Seriously.
The only thing anyone has said is "it isn't done" with zero alternatives that outperform it. I give examples, you only have stories.
Are you seriously that threatened that nb Argonians are better at ult gen?

btw I only use the shield ult when rezzing or as a clutch save.

The_Duke · October 2016

How i this thread still going?

Oakmontowls_ESO · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Give me one good reason why you should not use the highest ult generator/self heal in the entire game.
Seriously.
The only thing anyone has said is "it isn't done" with zero alternatives that outperform it. I give examples, you only have stories.
Are you seriously that threatened that nb Argonians are better at ult gen?

btw I only use the shield ult when rezzing or as a clutch save.

I don't think they are saying not to use it at all, just in situations like vet trials there really isnt anytime that you can use it. Also even without using it they are able to achieve a high enough uptime of aggressive warhorn so they can focus the rest of their build on supporting the group with other buffs or debuffs. Your build might work really well in the content that you do but that does not mean that it will work in all content. This also means that their min max ulti gen build isn't necessarily the best build for doing four man content or content with unexperienced group members. In cases like those there is some merit to extra survivability and self healing and not just straight buffing damage.

CreepyPahuska · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Give me one good reason why you should not use the highest ult generator/self heal in the entire game.
Seriously.

You can't be locked in an ability with a 3 second cast time permanently without giving up on everything else a tank must do. Note that I'm a sorcerer tank overabusing Dark Deal so I know a thing or two about using cast time abilities in a tank build.
You said yourself that you'd need to interrupt it to taunt, heavy attack, rez, etc... so no, you're not going to build 300 ulti a minute. You said it yourself so how can you persist on contradicting yourself, do you realize how ridiculous this is ?
And about drain being the highest self heal... please... you can't be serious... 20% of your missing health every second for 3 seconds ? If it HPS is so strong that it start to compete with other self heals in the game, it means you're in such a bad condition that I'd strongly advise you to hire a new healer...

The only thing anyone has said is "it isn't done" with zero alternatives that outperform it. I give examples, you only have stories.

It's only what you've understood. I won't risk myself to determine wether you did so out of bad faith, paranoia or stupidity.
Oh, and you don't give examples, it's merely just theories that you pulled out of where-they-should-not-be that could not work for the obvious reason we're trying to make you see. Show me a video of you doing some serious content while spamming drain for the whole fight while not being a burden for the rest of your group. Only then will I maybe consider it "an example"

Are you seriously that threatened that nb Argonians are better at ult gen?

You're the only one here trying to figure who has the biggest one. The rest of us are trying to make you understand that it's not the size that matters, but the way you use it... if you see what I mean

A bon entendeur, Salut !

Shaiba · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

btw I only use the shield ult when rezzing or as a clutch save.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Now that the shield ult lets me block while draining im basically immortal.

So much contradiction dude. We can't take you serious. You're just making yourself more and more riduculous as the thread goes on.

WalksonGraves · October 2016

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Give me one good reason why you should not use the highest ult generator/self heal in the entire game.
Seriously.
The only thing anyone has said is "it isn't done" with zero alternatives that outperform it. I give examples, you only have stories.
Are you seriously that threatened that nb Argonians are better at ult gen?

btw I only use the shield ult when rezzing or as a clutch save.

I don't think they are saying not to use it at all, just in situations like vet trials there really isnt anytime that you can use it. Also even without using it they are able to achieve a high enough uptime of aggressive warhorn so they can focus the rest of their build on supporting the group with other buffs or debuffs. Your build might work really well in the content that you do but that does not mean that it will work in all content. This also means that their min max ulti gen build isn't necessarily the best build for doing four man content or content with unexperienced group members. In cases like those there is some merit to extra survivability and self healing and not just straight buffing damage.

So just to be clear:
I make my tank spec in defense and you people complain that I don't have enough ult abilities despite putting out 2x as much as a dk tank.

I put on ult gen gear you people complain about not enough defense despite having previously saying tanks "only nub tanks have capped resistances".

I was hoping for intelligent discussion but instead I get petulant DKs that only understand one build type.

WalksonGraves · October 2016

Shaiba wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

btw I only use the shield ult when rezzing or as a clutch save.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Now that the shield ult lets me block while draining im basically immortal.

So much contradiction dude. We can't take you serious. You're just making yourself more and more riduculous as the thread goes on.

I only block while draining when im low hp and npcs can't kill someone healing 10k/s when they are blocking. There is no contradiction there.

Apokalypt · October 2016

So, I lost the overview...

What is now the conclusion? What is the best armor? Maybe divided in raid and 4-man.

PS: What are the must have skill for tank? I hear different things...

Lexxypwns · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Seriously though, I just get defensive about my builds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Autolycus
@Oreyn_Bearclaw
@Erock25

You know, if you look at his arguements from the position of a pug scrub that's used to getting carried then they're all 100% correct. Maybe we just need perspective

lol you are such petty little tw@s. Enjoy your suck builds losers

Dude, what is wrong with you? You asked advice, and then you attack everyone that doesnt agree with you? Wear whatever f'ing armor you want, but dont make posts proclaiming something to be BIS with not support.

In 4 man content, it really doesnt matter. You can DPS tank damn near everything. If you want to talk about actually tanking difficult stuff like VMOL, well none of the armor you mentioned is being worn by anyone clearing that place.

Have you tanked VMOL successfully? My guess is no, because I cant see a group putting up with that, but if so, we would all love to see a unique take on how to do it. The community of people pushing VMOL speedruns and clearing/attempting HM is pretty small. If you have some insight on how to make it better, then either share it with proof, or keep it to yourself.

To comment on a few other things you said:

1. Could you please post a video of you getting a warhorn up in 45 seconds, while wearing no gear to boost your ulti gain, I would love to see it. I wont hold my breath, however, because I dont believe it.

2. You cant possibly be running all the debuffs, because I dont think you are wearing alkosh. This set is huge. Yes it can be worn by a stamina DPS, but the vast majority of groups have found you get a better uptime if the tank wears it.

3. If you need 33k resist to survive, you keep talking about max resist, then you probably arent much of a tank. There is no fight that requires that in this game. Like anything in this game, there are tradeoffs. If you are pushing resist to the cap, you are making other sacrifices.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Baconfat79 wrote: »

Finally, another rational person in this thread. I was starting to feel like I was taking crazy pills. OP is a special kind of stupid. I'm done with this thread.

I think the other point being missed is that the skills which offer major ward/resolve ALSO confer other benefits which are not being given by the passive applied from a piece of armor. This also makes you less likely to use these skills. I actually could see the point of using Shalk to use something else for ultimate generation, but I don't see how its the highest and best use.

I'll post a vid once I get a tavas set to show the difference.
But here is the calc anyways,
300 ult a min from drain, only time I stop is to block heavy attacks or light attacks to keep resources topped off.
20 ult from pots every 45 seconds, (26 ult/min)
Not counting the ult from light attacks (which heal 2.5k and restore all resources)

If I ran bs/tavas/dragon Id get 230 ult in 25 seconds assuming bs procs once and I use a pot and heroic slash.

Hide of ww (60 ult/min)
With Tava's (180 ult/min)
heroic (40 ult/min)

And if you used perma drain with tava/bs/dragon you'd get even more ulti

Autolycus · October 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Seriously though, I just get defensive about my builds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Autolycus
@Oreyn_Bearclaw
@Erock25

You know, if you look at his arguements from the position of a pug scrub that's used to getting carried then they're all 100% correct. Maybe we just need perspective

lol you are such petty little tw@s. Enjoy your suck builds losers

Dude, what is wrong with you? You asked advice, and then you attack everyone that doesnt agree with you? Wear whatever f'ing armor you want, but dont make posts proclaiming something to be BIS with not support.

In 4 man content, it really doesnt matter. You can DPS tank damn near everything. If you want to talk about actually tanking difficult stuff like VMOL, well none of the armor you mentioned is being worn by anyone clearing that place.

Have you tanked VMOL successfully? My guess is no, because I cant see a group putting up with that, but if so, we would all love to see a unique take on how to do it. The community of people pushing VMOL speedruns and clearing/attempting HM is pretty small. If you have some insight on how to make it better, then either share it with proof, or keep it to yourself.

To comment on a few other things you said:

1. Could you please post a video of you getting a warhorn up in 45 seconds, while wearing no gear to boost your ulti gain, I would love to see it. I wont hold my breath, however, because I dont believe it.

2. You cant possibly be running all the debuffs, because I dont think you are wearing alkosh. This set is huge. Yes it can be worn by a stamina DPS, but the vast majority of groups have found you get a better uptime if the tank wears it.

3. If you need 33k resist to survive, you keep talking about max resist, then you probably arent much of a tank. There is no fight that requires that in this game. Like anything in this game, there are tradeoffs. If you are pushing resist to the cap, you are making other sacrifices.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Baconfat79 wrote: »

Finally, another rational person in this thread. I was starting to feel like I was taking crazy pills. OP is a special kind of stupid. I'm done with this thread.

I think the other point being missed is that the skills which offer major ward/resolve ALSO confer other benefits which are not being given by the passive applied from a piece of armor. This also makes you less likely to use these skills. I actually could see the point of using Shalk to use something else for ultimate generation, but I don't see how its the highest and best use.

I'll post a vid once I get a tavas set to show the difference.
But here is the calc anyways,
300 ult a min from drain, only time I stop is to block heavy attacks or light attacks to keep resources topped off.
20 ult from pots every 45 seconds, (26 ult/min)
Not counting the ult from light attacks (which heal 2.5k and restore all resources)

If I ran bs/tavas/dragon Id get 230 ult in 25 seconds assuming bs procs once and I use a pot and heroic slash.

Hide of ww (60 ult/min)
With Tava's (180 ult/min)
heroic (40 ult/min)

And if you used perma drain with tava/bs/dragon you'd get even more ulti

Honestly, I don't know why I'm still trying to be constructive on this thread. It's proven to be quite the waste of time. But I'm going to do it again anyway.

My biggest concern with Drain is giving up all semblance of block mitigation for the ult generation alone. The healing is not something we need to consider as tanks for the hardest content. It should be left up to the healer to keep our health consistently high. When it comes to less challenging content, there is plenty of leeway to make exceptions for self-healing tanks. I should know personally because of my extensive experience as a NB tank, and even moreso through my experience with self-healing builds against hardmode bosses. Let it be known that I condone and support tanks that afford a considerable amount of self-healing, but just as I don't over-generalize and provide blanket recommendations for any build, I do not condone this practice for all forms of content. Just about every build in this game has its moments where it's less effective than another, depending on the content.

The most appropriate place for this kind of build is veteran dungeons and normal trials. I've had a great deal of success with a self-healing build in veteran dungeons too - but when I do hardmode bosses or particularly vMoL, I do not use a self-healing build. There are some very good reasons for this, and just about every tank on this thread that I recognize can explain those nuances (and have tried already).

Perhaps I'm being a bit too strict in how I define this, but it's my sincere opinion that the second we step into vMoL or hardmode boss fights, consideration for leaving block down for longer than fractions of a second (not even a full second, and I have my reasons), we run the risk of the entire group wiping. I don't believe I'm exaggerating this concept, and I think many will agree with me on this. As a NB tank, it is more difficult to consistently sustain without dropping block, because our key source of sustenance doesn't come from spamming class abilities, it comes from weaving light attacks. The same is true for Sorc tanks, who rely very heavily on Dark Deal for sustenance, which requires dropping block. By nature, NBs and Sorcs must drop block to recover resources, which puts us at an inherently higher risk, which requires a certain level of player skill to manage. I am not saying that it cannot be done, because I do it. But I've also been the cause of wipes in my group before because of an ill-timed light attack or bar swap, as I'm sure is true for any of the experienced tanks here, even for DKs. Plain and simple, it happens.

The use of Drain is inherently riskier for any tank because of its 3s channel. To drop block for that long is extremely risky and in most cases not worth the extra ult generation. The amount of ult generation necessary for the hardest content is manageable without Drain, so the risk is too great to justify using it when there are less risky options that accomplish the same goal. This has been tested before; it's not a new concept, it hasn't simply been "missed" by the members of this community at the forefront of progression and theorycrafting, and it's not some untested hypothesis. There are very good reasons for why this skill is not used in competitive content. Use it to your heart's content in dungeons and normal trials if you want. But don't go around touting BiS nonsense for a build you haven't even used in more than a single vet HRC run. Go complete hardmode bosses and vMoL with your Drain build with evidence and I guarantee you that everyone on this thread will give you the credit you deserve.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You're totally wrong. Healing has nothing to do with damage because invigorating drain is based on MISSING HP. Healing done boosts it to 31% on the tooltip and that do

Forget Invigorating Drain. It's hindering your potential.

See your inability to see the potential of the most powerful skill in the game makes your opinions meaningless.

Comments like this are the reason you catch so much backlash from others, seemingly in every thread you post. I have personally tested Invigorating Drain and have decided it's an inferior option, and while you may not agree with that sentiment, you are simply wrong to assume it hasn't been considered. My opinion may be meaningless to you, but I have helped many other tanks go from ground zero to tanking vet trials within a matter of days, and my opinion has been meaningful to those people. If you don't want feedback, that's fine; all you have to do is ignore me. Otherwise, perhaps you can learn to have a normal discussion with people. Just because someone offers you advice on how to improve doesn't mean they're discrediting your entire build.

Pretty much everyone on this thread has approached your build with an open mind and tried to help you, and you just blew up on them and argued because you can't accept that there is room for improvement. There is always room for improvement - do you think any of us believe we're perfect, that there isn't any chance we could do better? Most of us get better by talking to each other and sharing information and build ideas. It would do you good to take the same approach, because you don't necessarily need other people to tell you how to play your character, but cutting out that resource is one of the quickest ways to halt your progression. Not to mention that your group will suffer from you being unapproachable too. Why risk missing out on valuable information, or even take that a step further: why insult everyone who tries to help?

WalksonGraves · October 2016

My intention wasn't to endlessly argue with people. It's just frustrating having people tell you something doesn't work when it does.

Here is why I feel like Im beating my head against the wall.

Nb have very different resource management than dk, siphoning strikes essentially makes regen an afterthought.

With tri stat food I have 18/45/21.
Siphoning strikes gives 2.5k hp, about 400 both mana/stam (I think). Using infused axe that bubbles for 4k.

So light attack heals, bubbles, restores all stats and generates ult.

My cp is all stam regen and I run 3x shield play so I can always bash/block/dodge.

pots give 7% all resources and 20 ult in addition to regular effects. Generally I use hot pots.

I made a tavas set to test it out, it is not as productive as everybody says because it not possible to maintain it constantly. And I already run dodge, bosses just don't hit often enough. Half of them ignore taunt to occasionally smack a dps.

If I run a maxxed set that has no defense buffs like tavas ive got about 23k defense wearing bs. Bs has no use to me because the proc doesn't happen often enough and if that 6k defense isn't wasted going over the cap your def is too low.

This is why I like chudan, saves resources and I don't have to worry about using 4k magicka every 11 seconds. Im shaving a lot of time off my rotation by not using refreshing path, it's only really worth it if im using it to trigger bogdan.

But seriously at max defense/hp you can get away with using drain between blocking one shot mechanics. Regular boss attacks can't kill me, they are designed for lower hp builds.

Nothing I use scales with anything but health and my vampire passives mean im super tanky under 25k hp, which is almost as much as a reg tanks max hp. My damage is reduced by 17% by siphoning and since only damage scales with base stats you can see why I have no use for it.

This is why there is no point in putting anything anywhere else. Stam never dips below 70%, mag runs out when I spam drain but one light attack gives me enough to pop out shades or mirage.

Erock25 · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

My intention wasn't to endlessly argue with people. It's just frustrating having people tell you something doesn't work when it does.

No one told you that your build doesn't work. They told you that it wasn't optimal for serious vet trials and they told you you're overstacking HP/mitigation for vet dungeons.

Autolycus · October 2016

And what will you do when you can't afford to drop block? Stam regen means nothing while blocking. Have you perfected weaving light attacks in between boss attacks, or do you simply leave your block down to spam Invigorating Drain? I'm almost 100% positive that, even with 45k hp, certain bosses will kill you even through your channeled healing without blocking. Resistances only go so far to protect you, and block mitigation is exceedingly important for several bosses in the most challenging content.

As I mentioned before, the viability of this setup is going to vary with content. When you provide us with evidence that your setup is viable against those bosses, against that challenge, I'm sure everyone will concede (I know I will, because you will have proven me wrong). Most of these tanks here have spent hundreds of hours in that content you have yet to see.

We're simply warning you about what's to come, not tell you everything you're doing is wrong. The suggestions to use Tava's and Blood Spawn, Shalk, WW Hide, etc. are all things that you want to consider for the content you haven't done yet. And of course it's not going to feel right to you the second you put it on - half the struggle is finding a way to work it into your playstyle.

SplishSplash12 · October 2016

Tanks can wear whatever they want in dungeons. So if your build works for you in that setting, then perfectly fine.

When you look at true end-game content (ie. veteran trials), you need some massive changes to your build. None of the sets you've listed are of much benefit in a trial setting. Chudan is far from best in slot, whatever your healing logic you follow with skills or sets on a tank is completely flawed, and invigorating drain...seriously? It seems the general consensus is, you've never tanked a vet trial before. And that's okay.

Your comments are coming from a very self-oriented mindset which I can understand if you just form public groups to run dungeons with. Trials on the other hand require an entirely different mentality. Your job is to hold aggro, position enemies, buff group, debuff boss, and act as a huge support to your team. The healer's job is to keep you alive. Tanks should be wearing at least one direct-effect group benefit set (either Ebon or Alkosh) and then usually an ult generating set to help with higher warhorn uptime. If all you're doing in a trial as the tank is worrying about yourself, then your dps will not look kindly on you and you're just making content more difficult to clear. Trial bosses have significantly more health than any vet dungeon boss. If you stand there spamming invigorating drain, then you're about as useful as a dps using inner fire, casting a ward, and holding block.

WalksonGraves · October 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

And what will you do when you can't afford to drop block? Stam regen means nothing while blocking. Have you perfected weaving light attacks in between boss attacks, or do you simply leave your block down to spam Invigorating Drain? I'm almost 100% positive that, even with 45k hp, certain bosses will kill you even through your channeled healing without blocking. Resistances only go so far to protect you, and block mitigation is exceedingly important for several bosses in the most challenging content.

As I mentioned before, the viability of this setup is going to vary with content. When you provide us with evidence that your setup is viable against those bosses, against that challenge, I'm sure everyone will concede (I know I will, because you will have proven me wrong). Most of these tanks here have spent hundreds of hours in that content you have yet to see.

We're simply warning you about what's to come, not tell you everything you're doing is wrong. The suggestions to use Tava's and Blood Spawn, Shalk, WW Hide, etc. are all things that you want to consider for the content you haven't done yet. And of course it's not going to feel right to you the second you put it on - half the struggle is finding a way to work it into your playstyle.

I was using dragon guard, bs and hide of ww almost since launch. I'm well aware of their strengths and weaknesses.

I coasted through vet hel ra on this char, I've yet to encounter a mechanic I can't handle.

Btw here is tavas/hide of ww/Bloodspawn.
I got sloppy with the heroic slash when I realized how bad this pug was but even then It's 6 warhorns over 4.5 min with an average of 50 seconds. So tavas and hide of ww are closer than you would think results wise.
Bs I maintain is terrible because of low proc rate. If you are getting hit often enough to get it regularly you are being swarmed.
Pirate might work at least 12 seconds is enough to matter.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!ApixwHVb7jGagWv7SikUNYPNJ8Xy

Lexxypwns · October 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Seriously though, I just get defensive about my builds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Autolycus
@Oreyn_Bearclaw
@Erock25

You know, if you look at his arguements from the position of a pug scrub that's used to getting carried then they're all 100% correct. Maybe we just need perspective

lol you are such petty little tw@s. Enjoy your suck builds losers

Dude, what is wrong with you? You asked advice, and then you attack everyone that doesnt agree with you? Wear whatever f'ing armor you want, but dont make posts proclaiming something to be BIS with not support.

In 4 man content, it really doesnt matter. You can DPS tank damn near everything. If you want to talk about actually tanking difficult stuff like VMOL, well none of the armor you mentioned is being worn by anyone clearing that place.

Have you tanked VMOL successfully? My guess is no, because I cant see a group putting up with that, but if so, we would all love to see a unique take on how to do it. The community of people pushing VMOL speedruns and clearing/attempting HM is pretty small. If you have some insight on how to make it better, then either share it with proof, or keep it to yourself.

To comment on a few other things you said:

1. Could you please post a video of you getting a warhorn up in 45 seconds, while wearing no gear to boost your ulti gain, I would love to see it. I wont hold my breath, however, because I dont believe it.

2. You cant possibly be running all the debuffs, because I dont think you are wearing alkosh. This set is huge. Yes it can be worn by a stamina DPS, but the vast majority of groups have found you get a better uptime if the tank wears it.

3. If you need 33k resist to survive, you keep talking about max resist, then you probably arent much of a tank. There is no fight that requires that in this game. Like anything in this game, there are tradeoffs. If you are pushing resist to the cap, you are making other sacrifices.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Baconfat79 wrote: »

Finally, another rational person in this thread. I was starting to feel like I was taking crazy pills. OP is a special kind of stupid. I'm done with this thread.

I think the other point being missed is that the skills which offer major ward/resolve ALSO confer other benefits which are not being given by the passive applied from a piece of armor. This also makes you less likely to use these skills. I actually could see the point of using Shalk to use something else for ultimate generation, but I don't see how its the highest and best use.

I'll post a vid once I get a tavas set to show the difference.
But here is the calc anyways,
300 ult a min from drain, only time I stop is to block heavy attacks or light attacks to keep resources topped off.
20 ult from pots every 45 seconds, (26 ult/min)
Not counting the ult from light attacks (which heal 2.5k and restore all resources)

If I ran bs/tavas/dragon Id get 230 ult in 25 seconds assuming bs procs once and I use a pot and heroic slash.

Hide of ww (60 ult/min)
With Tava's (180 ult/min)
heroic (40 ult/min)

And if you used perma drain with tava/bs/dragon you'd get even more ulti

Honestly, I don't know why I'm still trying to be constructive on this thread. It's proven to be quite the waste of time. But I'm going to do it again anyway.

My biggest concern with Drain is giving up all semblance of block mitigation for the ult generation alone. The healing is not something we need to consider as tanks for the hardest content. It should be left up to the healer to keep our health consistently high. When it comes to less challenging content, there is plenty of leeway to make exceptions for self-healing tanks. I should know personally because of my extensive experience as a NB tank, and even moreso through my experience with self-healing builds against hardmode bosses. Let it be known that I condone and support tanks that afford a considerable amount of self-healing, but just as I don't over-generalize and provide blanket recommendations for any build, I do not condone this practice for all forms of content. Just about every build in this game has its moments where it's less effective than another, depending on the content.

The most appropriate place for this kind of build is veteran dungeons and normal trials. I've had a great deal of success with a self-healing build in veteran dungeons too - but when I do hardmode bosses or particularly vMoL, I do not use a self-healing build. There are some very good reasons for this, and just about every tank on this thread that I recognize can explain those nuances (and have tried already).

Perhaps I'm being a bit too strict in how I define this, but it's my sincere opinion that the second we step into vMoL or hardmode boss fights, consideration for leaving block down for longer than fractions of a second (not even a full second, and I have my reasons), we run the risk of the entire group wiping. I don't believe I'm exaggerating this concept, and I think many will agree with me on this. As a NB tank, it is more difficult to consistently sustain without dropping block, because our key source of sustenance doesn't come from spamming class abilities, it comes from weaving light attacks. The same is true for Sorc tanks, who rely very heavily on Dark Deal for sustenance, which requires dropping block. By nature, NBs and Sorcs must drop block to recover resources, which puts us at an inherently higher risk, which requires a certain level of player skill to manage. I am not saying that it cannot be done, because I do it. But I've also been the cause of wipes in my group before because of an ill-timed light attack or bar swap, as I'm sure is true for any of the experienced tanks here, even for DKs. Plain and simple, it happens.

The use of Drain is inherently riskier for any tank because of its 3s channel. To drop block for that long is extremely risky and in most cases not worth the extra ult generation. The amount of ult generation necessary for the hardest content is manageable without Drain, so the risk is too great to justify using it when there are less risky options that accomplish the same goal. This has been tested before; it's not a new concept, it hasn't simply been "missed" by the members of this community at the forefront of progression and theorycrafting, and it's not some untested hypothesis. There are very good reasons for why this skill is not used in competitive content. Use it to your heart's content in dungeons and normal trials if you want. But don't go around touting BiS nonsense for a build you haven't even used in more than a single vet HRC run. Go complete hardmode bosses and vMoL with your Drain build with evidence and I guarantee you that everyone on this thread will give you the credit you deserve.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You're totally wrong. Healing has nothing to do with damage because invigorating drain is based on MISSING HP. Healing done boosts it to 31% on the tooltip and that do

Forget Invigorating Drain. It's hindering your potential.

See your inability to see the potential of the most powerful skill in the game makes your opinions meaningless.

Comments like this are the reason you catch so much backlash from others, seemingly in every thread you post. I have personally tested Invigorating Drain and have decided it's an inferior option, and while you may not agree with that sentiment, you are simply wrong to assume it hasn't been considered. My opinion may be meaningless to you, but I have helped many other tanks go from ground zero to tanking vet trials within a matter of days, and my opinion has been meaningful to those people. If you don't want feedback, that's fine; all you have to do is ignore me. Otherwise, perhaps you can learn to have a normal discussion with people. Just because someone offers you advice on how to improve doesn't mean they're discrediting your entire build.

Pretty much everyone on this thread has approached your build with an open mind and tried to help you, and you just blew up on them and argued because you can't accept that there is room for improvement. There is always room for improvement - do you think any of us believe we're perfect, that there isn't any chance we could do better? Most of us get better by talking to each other and sharing information and build ideas. It would do you good to take the same approach, because you don't necessarily need other people to tell you how to play your character, but cutting out that resource is one of the quickest ways to halt your progression. Not to mention that your group will suffer from you being unapproachable too. Why risk missing out on valuable information, or even take that a step further: why insult everyone who tries to help?

oh, no doubt, perma drain is a joke, I'm just playing into his insanity at this point, in that drain isn't exclusive to wearing certain sets

WalksonGraves · October 2016

SplishSplash12 wrote: »

Tanks can wear whatever they want in dungeons. So if your build works for you in that setting, then perfectly fine.

When you look at true end-game content (ie. veteran trials), you need some massive changes to your build. None of the sets you've listed are of much benefit in a trial setting. Chudan is far from best in slot, whatever your healing logic you follow with skills or sets on a tank is completely flawed, and invigorating drain...seriously? It seems the general consensus is, you've never tanked a vet trial before. And that's okay.

Your comments are coming from a very self-oriented mindset which I can understand if you just form public groups to run dungeons with. Trials on the other hand require an entirely different mentality. Your job is to hold aggro, position enemies, buff group, debuff boss, and act as a huge support to your team. The healer's job is to keep you alive. Tanks should be wearing at least one direct-effect group benefit set (either Ebon or Alkosh) and then usually an ult generating set to help with higher warhorn uptime. If all you're doing in a trial as the tank is worrying about yourself, then your dps will not look kindly on you and you're just making content more difficult to clear. Trial bosses have significantly more health than any vet dungeon boss. If you stand there spamming invigorating drain, then you're about as useful as a dps using inner fire, casting a ward, and holding block.

Please read before repeating the same arguments someone already made that has been rebutted. Ebony bonus is marginal at best, the potential damage is a fraction of what you can get from other sets. Healing reduction debuffs can be done by 1 nb dps. Not worth my time.

Unsent.Soul · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Seriously though, I just get defensive about my builds

Thats being a complete piece of ****. What you displayed in this thread is absolutely pathetic.

1/2 of your statements just contradict what you've said previously, it's hilarious, your mindset...

SplishSplash12 · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Please read before repeating the same arguments someone already made that has been rebutted. Ebony bonus is marginal at best, the potential damage is a fraction of what you can get from other sets. Healing reduction debuffs can be done by 1 nb dps. Not worth my time.

Hence why no one takes you seriously.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

And what will you do when you can't afford to drop block? Stam regen means nothing while blocking. Have you perfected weaving light attacks in between boss attacks, or do you simply leave your block down to spam Invigorating Drain? I'm almost 100% positive that, even with 45k hp, certain bosses will kill you even through your channeled healing without blocking. Resistances only go so far to protect you, and block mitigation is exceedingly important for several bosses in the most challenging content.

As I mentioned before, the viability of this setup is going to vary with content. When you provide us with evidence that your setup is viable against those bosses, against that challenge, I'm sure everyone will concede (I know I will, because you will have proven me wrong). Most of these tanks here have spent hundreds of hours in that content you have yet to see.

We're simply warning you about what's to come, not tell you everything you're doing is wrong. The suggestions to use Tava's and Blood Spawn, Shalk, WW Hide, etc. are all things that you want to consider for the content you haven't done yet. And of course it's not going to feel right to you the second you put it on - half the struggle is finding a way to work it into your playstyle.

The point about the HP amounts are part of what concern me about the build as well. Even as a tank with overcapped Physical/Spell Resistance, Vampire, etc I've been hit by bosses with (NON FIRE) damage over 72k before... on a character with over 40k health, and a bubble shield up. The only reason this happened was that my block was down at that time. Yes it was my mistake, but I think that's the point folks are trying to make - and I'd like to add I'd like to say I'm not trying to be harsh or anything like that here. I like it when people are trying to creatively come up with something different. I think what people are saying is that your build is interesting within the confines of dungeons that aren't going to put that build at risk. I imagine it is workable in a number of situations though.

I'd like to point out its more fun to just utilize the build or a variant of it that Autolycus has for sap tanking.

Erock25 · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

SplishSplash12 wrote: »

Tanks can wear whatever they want in dungeons. So if your build works for you in that setting, then perfectly fine.

When you look at true end-game content (ie. veteran trials), you need some massive changes to your build. None of the sets you've listed are of much benefit in a trial setting. Chudan is far from best in slot, whatever your healing logic you follow with skills or sets on a tank is completely flawed, and invigorating drain...seriously? It seems the general consensus is, you've never tanked a vet trial before. And that's okay.

Your comments are coming from a very self-oriented mindset which I can understand if you just form public groups to run dungeons with. Trials on the other hand require an entirely different mentality. Your job is to hold aggro, position enemies, buff group, debuff boss, and act as a huge support to your team. The healer's job is to keep you alive. Tanks should be wearing at least one direct-effect group benefit set (either Ebon or Alkosh) and then usually an ult generating set to help with higher warhorn uptime. If all you're doing in a trial as the tank is worrying about yourself, then your dps will not look kindly on you and you're just making content more difficult to clear. Trial bosses have significantly more health than any vet dungeon boss. If you stand there spamming invigorating drain, then you're about as useful as a dps using inner fire, casting a ward, and holding block.

Please read before repeating the same arguments someone already made that has been rebutted. Ebony bonus is marginal at best, the potential damage is a fraction of what you can get from other sets. Healing reduction debuffs can be done by 1 nb dps. Not worth my time.

You read it here boys and girls. Ebony has been rebutted by the mighty walksongraves who has run exactly ONE trial in his entire ESO time.

WalksonGraves · October 2016

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Seriously though, I just get defensive about my builds

Thats being a complete piece of ****. What you displayed in this thread is absolutely pathetic.

1/2 of your statements just contradict what you've said previously, it's hilarious, your mindset...

Lol ok. This thread got derailed early on by obnoxious children like you too dim to concieve of anything different than what you have been spoon fed.
I've yet to see any calculations justifying ebon.

Erock25 · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Seriously though, I just get defensive about my builds

Thats being a complete piece of ****. What you displayed in this thread is absolutely pathetic.

1/2 of your statements just contradict what you've said previously, it's hilarious, your mindset...

Lol ok. This thread got derailed early on by obnoxious children like you too dim to concieve of anything different than what you have been spoon fed.
I've yet to see any calculations justifying ebon.

No calcs needed. It's one tank's 5 piece set bonus versus at least 8 damage dealers being able to stack more dps. You said yourself that you don't care how fast you clear content when this is the exact metric the game scores you on.

WalksonGraves · October 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Seriously though, I just get defensive about my builds

Thats being a complete piece of ****. What you displayed in this thread is absolutely pathetic.

1/2 of your statements just contradict what you've said previously, it's hilarious, your mindset...

Lol ok. This thread got derailed early on by obnoxious children like you too dim to concieve of anything different than what you have been spoon fed.
I've yet to see any calculations justifying ebon.

No calcs needed. It's one tank's 5 piece set bonus versus at least 8 damage dealers being able to stack more dps. You said yourself that you don't care how fast you clear content when this is the exact metric the game scores you on.

8 x 95 weapon dmg is not worth it imo. Honestly if your dps had 10k hp maybe you need to rethink your build. There is no point to most endgame content since regular sets are apparently better and I could honestly give a *** about a scoreboard. It's pretty obvious to me that 30% increase more often outweighs a 2.5% one.

It would be easier to take you all seriously if you actually backed any of your claims up with numbers.

Unsent.Soul · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Seriously though, I just get defensive about my builds

Thats being a complete piece of ****. What you displayed in this thread is absolutely pathetic.

1/2 of your statements just contradict what you've said previously, it's hilarious, your mindset...

Lol ok. This thread got derailed early on by obnoxious children like you too dim to concieve of anything different than what you have been spoon fed.
I've yet to see any calculations justifying ebon.

No calcs needed. It's one tank's 5 piece set bonus versus at least 8 damage dealers being able to stack more dps. You said yourself that you don't care how fast you clear content when this is the exact metric the game scores you on.

8 x 95 weapon dmg is not worth it imo. Honestly if your dps had 10k hp maybe you need to rethink your build. There is no point to most endgame content since regular sets are apparently better and I could honestly give a *** about a scoreboard. It's pretty obvious to me that 30% increase more often outweighs a 2.5% one.

It would be easier to take you all seriously if you actually backed any of your claims up with numbers.

Are you that block headed you can't even figure out what @Erock25 is even saying?

8/9 dps (typical trial) are benefiting from 1 tank wearing 1 5pc set. That extra 1k will bring most dps builds out of 1 shot range.

8/9 dps running gear without a health bonus, because they know tank has ebon, means MORE DPS!!!!

I know *** Mind Blown

How on earth can you not see this? Do you run with ideal groups? Do you know what an ideal group is?

Shaiba · October 2016

@WalksonGraves What set you wanna use instead of Ebon ? I missed it if you already answered it (you talked about too many sets i'm a bit lost on what you wanna play for endgame purposes). Are you playing with an offtank that runs it ?. You haven't stated what content are you planing to do ? vet Trials ? vet Dungeons ? vet Dungeons with PUG ? Cause you can/will build differently depending on the content you're doing and depending on who you play with.

It's pretty obvious to me that 30% increase more often outweighs a 2.5% one.

You can and will have both in endgame content (if you are talking about warhorns for the 30% increase part). Don't know where you found your 2.5% increase but it's pretty obvious to me that 30% of 1.025x is superior than 30% of x.

Increase that with the party buffs (which are up almost 100% specially in vet trials, combat prayer 8% Damage done, infaillible aether, warhorn, ...) and the difference will become bigger between their DPS with points spent into HP and without.

8 x 95 weapon dmg is not worth it imo.

I already stated why it's not only a 8*95 dmg lost. Problem too is that in some content the ebon will make the difference between life and death for your DPS. Seems you kinda missed it or maybe I wasn't clear in my explanations, hope now it's clearer ^^ What are you trading for this loss ? If you trade your ebon for something more useful for your group, i think it can be a good trade off. Something to compensate the loss of ebon bonuses (for your team not only for you, cause you're playing as a team you need to synergize together).

It's one tank's 5 piece set bonus versus at least 8 damage dealers being able to stack more dps. You said yourself that you don't care how fast you clear content when this is the exact metric the game scores you on.

This.

IB4 you say "you're DK I won't listen to you, ...." : NO i'm not playing a DK tank, only a NB one. Lots of people who answered on your topic are playing non-DK tank, so this isn't a valid excuse for not paying attention to their advices.

And you can't permadrain in vet trials, people already explained to you why, it seems you understood it, great

EDIT : I saw you talked about the Pirate monster set. It's not a useful set for teamplay. It'll only buff/debuff you, not sure why you want to use it for teamplaying. What it'll adds for your group ? Nothing.

Autolycus · October 2016

Well said @Shaiba . Good points and good comparisons.

I too would strongly emphasize group benefit every time it comes to making a gear decision. This doesn't just apply to the tank; In today's trials environment, group composition is an exceedingly important factor to consider. In most cases, at least as far as I'm aware, the entire group is involved when it comes to maintaining buffs/debuffs. Every person in the group has a role to play, whether it's cranking out War Horns, applying Vulnerability, SPC, Gossamer, Worm Cult, Combat Prayer... or even simple "passive" minor buffs like Minor Savagery, Brutality, Intellect, etc.

It's about far more than just what one set gives vs. another. It's about the big picture... how everything comes together to be the optimal setup for the whole group. Personally, my entire group is involved in the decision-making for competitive trials. Everyone has a say in what role they'll do, but everyone also does what they can to accommodate the betterment of the group on the whole, which sometimes means using a different character or different sets so that it benefits the group.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You realize 1k is nothing right? It's 10% of base hp, 1/4 of what your food bonus is.
Enjoy your eggshell dps.

Going from 16.2k HP to 17.3k HP is the line between life and death for MANY dmging abilities in trials.

Take some points out of stam/mag. You don't need to be a glass cannon to dps and the dps gain is negligible from a few points.

This is the most "insightful" comment you have made. You aren't talking about the same thing as everyone else in this thread. When we are talking about Meta and BIS builds, it is because you are trying to push scores on competitive end game content. End of the day, there are only 2 metrics that matter. Time, which is directly dependent on group DPS, and number of deaths. This statement makes it clear you don't care about that.

It is 100% clear that you have never tanked a place like VMOL or other trial HMs, which is perfectly fine, most people haven't. But that is the current meta content for PVE Tanking; that is what the vast majority of people are trying to build for. If it works there, it will work everywhere. You are asking every DPS in your raid to sacrifice DPS because you don't want to wear a set (ebon). That is selfish and frankly makes you a bad (or ignorant) tank.

DPS in the current meta are trying to be glass cannons because the more DPS, the better the score. A glass cannon can't function on their own. We build depending on health buffs from things like warhorn and ebon. The difference between 16 and 18k health in trials is huge, as is the corresponding loss of of your primary stat if you aren't getting the support, especially because the negative effect is multiplied times 8.

Again, in 4-man stuff, wear whatever you want. Nobody gives a crap. If you are trying to build for VMOL or other HMs, then I suggest you open your eyes and ears and listen to what people are saying who have actually done it it. If good glass cannons can't function in pug runs, it's on them to adapt. If they can't function in a raid, it's mostly likely on the support roles to adjust what they are doing.

FYI: We tried having our off tank drop Ebon one night in VMOL HM. It was a disaster. The extra health is a difference between the raid wiping and survival. Also, a tank building around a 3 second channel skill might be the worst idea I have ever heard. If you need drain, your healer is garbage.

WalksonGraves · October 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You realize 1k is nothing right? It's 10% of base hp, 1/4 of what your food bonus is.
Enjoy your eggshell dps.

Going from 16.2k HP to 17.3k HP is the line between life and death for MANY dmging abilities in trials.

Take some points out of stam/mag. You don't need to be a glass cannon to dps and the dps gain is negligible from a few points.

This is the most "insightful" comment you have made. You aren't talking about the same thing as everyone else in this thread. When we are talking about Meta and BIS builds, it is because you are trying to push scores on competitive end game content. End of the day, there are only 2 metrics that matter. Time, which is directly dependent on group DPS, and number of deaths. This statement makes it clear you don't care about that.

It is 100% clear that you have never tanked a place like VMOL or other trial HMs, which is perfectly fine, most people haven't. But that is the current meta content for PVE Tanking; that is what the vast majority of people are trying to build for. If it works there, it will work everywhere. You are asking every DPS in your raid to sacrifice DPS because you don't want to wear a set (ebon). That is selfish and frankly makes you a bad (or ignorant) tank.

DPS in the current meta are trying to be glass cannons because the more DPS, the better the score. A glass cannon can't function on their own. We build depending on health buffs from things like warhorn and ebon. The difference between 16 and 18k health in trials is huge, as is the corresponding loss of of your primary stat if you aren't getting the support, especially because the negative effect is multiplied times 8.

Again, in 4-man stuff, wear whatever you want. Nobody gives a crap. If you are trying to build for VMOL or other HMs, then I suggest you open your eyes and ears and listen to what people are saying who have actually done it it. If good glass cannons can't function in pug runs, it's on them to adapt. If they can't function in a raid, it's mostly likely on the support roles to adjust what they are doing.

FYI: We tried having our off tank drop Ebon one night in VMOL HM. It was a disaster. The extra health is a difference between the raid wiping and survival. Also, a tank building around a 3 second channel skill might be the worst idea I have ever heard. If you need drain, your healer is garbage.

The drain is more for ult than anything, it just happens to be a great clutch heal. You can also animation cancel with block for a 3 sec stun, 5 ult and 8k-0 hp for 1 sec of channel.

With siphoning, hots and refreshing im getting 4.2-5k/sec heals + drain.
Self heal isn't as big of a factor if you have a proper healer but if they go down or aren't available due to mechanics I like to be able to survive solo. Rezzing dead party members is more of a regular dungeon thing imo.

Bs: Defense buff is lost to caps and boss rof is too low with me dodging to proc regularly. Im not a fan of "when hit" effects that aren't heals. Mostly I just get more out of sets like bogdan for the proc rate since im getting healed by 4-5 sources at any given time. I like chudan because It means I only have to use 3 central skills that cost resources and they are all cheap.

ebon:
I still think more freq horn has more impact, it's not like you can't put 1k into hp. If its so great why not have the healer run it as jewelry?

Pirate helm:
30% dr for 12 sec is huge, it's the best defensive buff in the game. 15% healing loss is absorbed by vitality pots/my base 39% healing taken.

So many tanking sets.. *drool*

So many tanking sets.. drool