Another failed PUG Vet HelRa

Doctordarkspawn · October 2016

sirrmattus wrote: »

#'s only matter after you can understand mechanics.

Untrue in many cases. And in more facets than you probably mean. You can understand mechanics all you want, your armor is too low it's too low man.

Doctordarkspawn · October 2016

People like to say nerfing content will kill this game. But nah. People saying the people who cant complete a challenge when the deck is stacked against them will kill the game, because the designers tend to lisen to these people and they have actively driven away many.

Not good? Git gud or be harassed. Cant measure up? You should never be allowed to play again. Why does this attitude even exist?

Personally I've given up on trying to make DPS until this game gets a clue as far as teaching new DPS and giving viable alternatives to gear is concerned.

People will never get there without clear progression and mechanical aid. As a designer, their job was to teach. They failed. We shouldn't suffer for their inability to teach nor eliteist attitudes.

For once, I agree with a few people in this thread I rarely do. You dont find experienced people, you -make- them. You give them a hand and help them become greater than their were.

So what are you waiting for?

Shad0wfire99 · October 2016

Xrucible wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

CultOfMMO wrote: »

i know most people think dps is such a brain dead role, but decent dps is probably the rarest thing in this game, especially when you consider the fact that you need at least 8 dps per trial group.

This. I'm of the opinion that dishing out constant, high-end dps is MUCH harder than endgame healing or tanking.

As some one who has Tanked, DPSed and Healed all vet trials including some hard modes I disagree. DPS is a brain dead role in this game. I can pull 25k just spamming wrecking blow or snipe with dots. All you have to do is not stand in stupid and do your rotation. That is enough to clear all craglorn vet trials.

Healing is probably the hardest role in the game. Keeping buffs up, providing resources and making sure the group is alive. It is much more a dynamic role than DPS.

If you think tanking is easy you are lucky to have a good tank in your group. Though not as hard as healing it is another dynamic role compared to dpsing.

I have a tank, a healer, and a couple dps characters. There's nothing brain dead about dps. Try pulling 45-50k with Wrecking Blow spam.

I think you misunderstood my statement yes to pull 45-50k you need lots of practice and raid buffs. Almost all the craglorn trials barring VAA hard mode can be completed with 20k dps.

This game is easy. People make it unnecessarily complicated.

This I can't argue with. However, if you're not doing 45-50k, or don't have the Stormproof title (which has zero to do with whether or not you can raid in a group), then you're highly unlikely to get into a vet trial group.

Juhasow · October 2016

Woeler wrote: »

You dont just find good people, you make good people.

That's deep.

idk · October 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly a PUG; it was all guild players....from a few different guilds, but nowhere near enough DPS. Why is it so freaking hard to find good DPS? Why do I keep doing this to myself? Maybe I should just stick with daily pledges.

One of these days the stars will align and well burn through the Warrior or Mage or Celestial Serpent. Til then F the vet trials. Maybe next weekend. Or tonight. Hehe.

@kylewwefan

First, a regular group tends to do better. Obviously they can improve together and in the end trial runs are smoother than just randomely forming the group from a guild or mumtiple guilds.

Start forming the group and focus on one dungeon. Remove the players that do not listen or are resistant to change. Eventually you'll have a good raid group and will be clearing the trials.

Second, remember that you're part of that group and everyone has room for improvement.

flizomica · October 2016

One of the problems IMO is that there are no resources explaining how to heal/tank/dps. So you get healers that dont know they are supposed to run buffs sets and skills, and dps that don't understand how dots/buffs/debuffs/spammables work together to produce good dps. There's also not really a way for new-ish players to figure out how much damage they should be doing. Plus there's a pretty steep learning curve from vet dungeons to vet trials.

idk · October 2016

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

One of the problems IMO is that there are no resources explaining how to heal/tank/dps. So you get healers that dont know they are supposed to run buffs sets and skills, and dps that don't understand how dots/buffs/debuffs/spammables work together to produce good dps. There's also not really a way for new-ish players to figure out how much damage they should be doing. Plus there's a pretty steep learning curve from vet dungeons to vet trials.

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO

Based on your other thread it would seem you have enough experience to understand this isn't completely correct.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/300000/did-one-tamriel-kill-trials#latest

If you have cleared all the trials in HM, and especially vMoL HM the you would be aware that many stronger guilds have players and theory crafters that can and do help. Raid leaders who orchestrate the groups sets and skill, especially support skills. Additionally, many guilds have requirements on dps and such for anyone who wants to raid.

This trickles down to other guilds and gives players indication of what is expected, at least at a minimal effort.

Of course, if guild trying to progress through one of the vet trials and bringing in players from various guilds and friends lists they will find the experience more challenging for many reasons.

But you should already know this based on the experience you claim.

flizomica · October 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

One of the problems IMO is that there are no resources explaining how to heal/tank/dps. So you get healers that dont know they are supposed to run buffs sets and skills, and dps that don't understand how dots/buffs/debuffs/spammables work together to produce good dps. There's also not really a way for new-ish players to figure out how much damage they should be doing. Plus there's a pretty steep learning curve from vet dungeons to vet trials.

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO

Based on your other thread it would seem you have enough experience to understand this isn't completely correct.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/300000/did-one-tamriel-kill-trials#latest

If you have cleared all the trials in HM, and especially vMoL HM the you would be aware that many stronger guilds have players and theory crafters that can and do help. Raid leaders who orchestrate the groups sets and skill, especially support skills. Additionally, many guilds have requirements on dps and such for anyone who wants to raid.

This trickles down to other guilds and gives players indication of what is expected, at least at a minimal effort.

Of course, if guild trying to progress through one of the vet trials and bringing in players from various guilds and friends lists they will find the experience more challenging for many reasons.

But you should already know this based on the experience you claim.

I meant ingame resources. Noone tells you what being a dps actually means when you queue for a dungeon the first time. I've run into a lot of players that don't really 'get' their role t- most when we are a player short and need to grab someone's friend, or when a friend of mine asks me to heal/dps a vet trial with their guild. I think you vastly overestimate how good people are at figuring stuff out for themselves, lol.

Also, I said in my first post that I had done everything except for mol HM.

Aeaeren · October 2016

Nickernator wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly a PUG; it was all guild players....from a few different guilds, but nowhere near enough DPS. Why is it so freaking hard to find good DPS? Why do I keep doing this to myself? Maybe I should just stick with daily pledges.

One of these days the stars will align and well burn through the Warrior or Mage or Celestial Serpent. Til then F the vet trials. Maybe next weekend. Or tonight. Hehe.

There are some people that can't deal good DPS because they don't have the required gear, if they can get the gear they want. And especially from HellRa drops some good gear, then they can do better DPS.

Gear is part of it but Rotation and animation cancelling are more important and you find lots of people haven't figured that part out yet. Do you have at least 2 dots on the mob while you're spamming your main damage skill? Have you figured out how to sustain your resources? Etc....

I have done pug dungeons where one person was only using a bow and heavy attacking and the other 2 were not much better. It was so bad I had to switch from mainly healing to hardcore DPS/Tanking/Kiting while trying to heal them. I did a normal trial with PvPers and boy I have never seen so many 2 handed executes in my life, it was kind of funny but they are good players and the difference is these guys know they are lacking DPS and are working to change it up a bit without someone having to instruct them to much. Pugs on the other hand is a WHOLE nother world. Some are fantastic and some just don't know how to play yet but are willing to learn and some are just a lost cause. You get what you get! Sometimes you can overcome and carry them and sometimes you just gotta know when to quit.

idk · October 2016

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

One of the problems IMO is that there are no resources explaining how to heal/tank/dps. So you get healers that dont know they are supposed to run buffs sets and skills, and dps that don't understand how dots/buffs/debuffs/spammables work together to produce good dps. There's also not really a way for new-ish players to figure out how much damage they should be doing. Plus there's a pretty steep learning curve from vet dungeons to vet trials.

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO

Based on your other thread it would seem you have enough experience to understand this isn't completely correct.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/300000/did-one-tamriel-kill-trials#latest

If you have cleared all the trials in HM, and especially vMoL HM the you would be aware that many stronger guilds have players and theory crafters that can and do help. Raid leaders who orchestrate the groups sets and skill, especially support skills. Additionally, many guilds have requirements on dps and such for anyone who wants to raid.

This trickles down to other guilds and gives players indication of what is expected, at least at a minimal effort.

Of course, if guild trying to progress through one of the vet trials and bringing in players from various guilds and friends lists they will find the experience more challenging for many reasons.

But you should already know this based on the experience you claim.

I meant ingame resources. Noone tells you what being a dps actually means when you queue for a dungeon the first time. I've run into a lot of players that don't really 'get' their role t- most when we are a player short and need to grab someone's friend, or when a friend of mine asks me to heal/dps a vet trial with their guild. I think you vastly overestimate how good people are at figuring stuff out for themselves, lol.

Also, I said in my first post that I had done everything except for mol HM.

@chloethefoxxub17_ESO

Any tutorials I've seen in MMOs, or any game, has been to high level to be of real help to any player. The best solution is finding a decent guild and of course having an Open mind and seeing the results for oneself.

Tamriel Foundry does have some good builds but one has to be warry if any builds that do not show actual end game parses. Tested builds are all that should be considered. At that, tanking and healing builds posted often do not truly explain what is needed to know and since a parse for either is f helpful it's harder to discern what is helpful and what is not.

Aeaeren · October 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Nickernator wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly a PUG; it was all guild players....from a few different guilds, but nowhere near enough DPS. Why is it so freaking hard to find good DPS? Why do I keep doing this to myself? Maybe I should just stick with daily pledges.

One of these days the stars will align and well burn through the Warrior or Mage or Celestial Serpent. Til then F the vet trials. Maybe next weekend. Or tonight. Hehe.

There are some people that can't deal good DPS because they don't have the required gear, if they can get the gear they want. And especially from HellRa drops some good gear, then they can do better DPS.

Exactly. The fact that the only way to get the proper gear is to grind, and not everyone has the time to do it. If Zos would knock off the BOP and actually let us (who do have time to grind) start selling loot then perhaps players would start to gain access to good gear from an investment point of view.

My DPS would probably sky rocketed if I was able to purchase couple of inferno vMA staffs from the guild stores.

I could get them myself I suppose... but I prefer to play in a group rather then solo.

Your DPS just with the staff will go up a few thousand per second but if your below average DPS it's not going fix your DPS issue.

flizomica · October 2016

Aeaeren wrote: »

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Nickernator wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly a PUG; it was all guild players....from a few different guilds, but nowhere near enough DPS. Why is it so freaking hard to find good DPS? Why do I keep doing this to myself? Maybe I should just stick with daily pledges.

One of these days the stars will align and well burn through the Warrior or Mage or Celestial Serpent. Til then F the vet trials. Maybe next weekend. Or tonight. Hehe.

There are some people that can't deal good DPS because they don't have the required gear, if they can get the gear they want. And especially from HellRa drops some good gear, then they can do better DPS.

Exactly. The fact that the only way to get the proper gear is to grind, and not everyone has the time to do it. If Zos would knock off the BOP and actually let us (who do have time to grind) start selling loot then perhaps players would start to gain access to good gear from an investment point of view.

My DPS would probably sky rocketed if I was able to purchase couple of inferno vMA staffs from the guild stores.

I could get them myself I suppose... but I prefer to play in a group rather then solo.

Your DPS just with the staff will go up a few thousand per second but if your below average DPS it's not going fix your DPS issue.

yeah its like a 2-3k dps increase for most builds, also because you can fill the missing slot with another piece of aether for a 4-piece spell damage bonus. You arent gonna lose a ton of dps for not having a vma staff.

Artis · October 2016

Nebthet78 wrote: »

You seem to come across as having an extrmely elitist attitude and that is one of the things that is sorely wrong with this game and why so many players are beginning to complain on this forum.

And you seem to come across as having an extremely carebear let's-give-stuff-to-everyone attitude, so?
My attitude absolutely doesn't matter. Substance is more important than the form. What I"m saying is true and you know it. If you don't like how it sounds, maybe it's the case of "truth hurts"?

Nebthet78 wrote: »

For myself. I find Normal Trials to be boring and too easy for me. So running them is not really all that fun.
But finding a good group of people versed enough in Vet Trials who are willing to take someone who may not pull top dps (off by between 2-7k), but at least knows the mechanics and listens to the group leader instead of screwing around is harder than you think. Especially if you are a girl.

You are delusional. Especially if you are a girl. Girls get spots in trial groups all the time because it's oh so cool and progressive to have a girl and a female voice in teamspeak make it seem that we aren't complete nerds.

In fact, I remember this girl that I found and she would run in my group and we would help her etc, we didn't even know she was a girl before we all used TS for the first time. But then some other players would always take her so she'd hang out with them and be in their group and stuff all the time and would carry her to top leader board positions, train her etc etc. Would they put that much effort into a random guy? Doubt it. So don't even start that "especially if you are a girl". Girls get way more attention and help.

Never seen a raid leader flirt with girls when they generally talk down to ("lead") or simply ignore other guys?

Nebthet78 wrote: »

"Ruin the game for the majority to cater to minority" you say? Boy are you wrong.

No.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Another issue I've seen in a couple guilds over the last month is; now that normal trials only drops blue items, people no longer want to run them as they feel the rewards are not good enough for the effort they put into it, so even if you have a scheduled guild trials date and time, you are wasting 30-40 minute trying to find enough people to do the run and trying to pull from other guilds. This frustrates higher tier players who have the dps.

That's an issue for everyone and always has been. That's the main issue with group content - organization. Average time it takes for end-game guilds where people sign up in advance to get ready is your 20-30 mins, counting from when invites are coming out until the first pull. So spending just 10 mins longer than that is not an issue if you think you deserve that gear.

The gear quality means nothing except for jewelry (where it means almost nothing), gear can be upgraded. And jewelry? It doesn't add much stat, the difference is miniscule, but it's good that you can't upgrade. That gives people incentive to do vet trials, or why would they do them otherwise if you could get the same rewards putting WAY less effort? Such system would affect the majority of players.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

It is the minority of players who are able to complete Vet and Vet Hardmode trials right now that want things to remain as hard as they are. The majority of players are walking away from doing them because they don't feel rewarded and it's no longer fun for them.

And it's good. It's a normal curve, only a minority can complete all content or no content at all. And it's good that others walk away. They are too weak and don't deserve rewards. They can get anything from their normal trials except jewelry will be worse. Are you really saying that it's good for the health of the game if different difficulties will have the same reward? Can't you see that they are just whining and being selfish and trying to get what's better for them short term rather than what's better for everyone long term?

Nebthet78 wrote: »

And yes, 20k is very doable with raid buffs, the problem is, a lot of these guilds want you to be able to do it without the buffs first and that's what sucks.

Well 20k without buffs is still doable and very average. Without buffs guilds that you'd call "elitist" expect you to do 30k+, which is not very simple. I thought you were talking about the dps in trials.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I have run with a couple of the higher tier guilds as a pull in for Vet Mode and there is a considerable difference in skill level between these players and the typical casual player or even a hardcore good player. And yes, this was recently. They have honed their roles and skills over a lot of time and it shows.

Yes, and you know what's the difference between those players and casual players? It's not skill - it's the mindset. Instead of whining that rewards aren't good enough, they understand that all players are in the same conditions and instead of whining they simply need to get better. There's absolutely no reason anyone else can't do that in PvE where everything is repetitive. If a person is bad, it's his choice. He can always practice and get there, especially if you are talking about just 20k dps. That is very average.

Your problem is that you don't have requirements. You call elitists out on their requirements, but those requirements are only in place so that they don't find themselves in your situation where a group doesn't have enough DPS. They went through this when they started, they don't want to do it again. Now it's your turn to go through this and some of you will evolve into a next generation of good players.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

My problem is, many of these guilds are not willing to take the time to help or train others. I have seen time and time again, someone who is good enough want to do Vet Trials, but because they are only a couple points off from meeting required DPS, or in the worse case, they are a female player (and yes, there are plenty of female players in many of the top guilds too), they are not considered or asked.

Wtf is that? Female player is the worse case? Female players are the ones who get personal training sessions if anything. Yes, for them someone who's good will find time and take time to explain everything and teach. It's male players who have to read and maybe get some replies in chat if they are lucky. Being a couple points off is the same for everyone - male of female won't be in a raid if they don't meet requirements. Don't bring up sexes here. DPS is a number and doesn't care about your sex.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

People like me, also, who have a disability, but finds ways to overcome them as best as possible are also left behind because those with elitist attitudes don't want to work with us to help us become better with our rotations in a manner we are able to deal with. DPS wise for me.... My tanking on the other hand I have no issue with and is fun, but I like the challenge of DPS to work at.

Well, I'm sorry, so what do you want others to do? They don't know if you're disabled or not, all they know - and all they want to know - is how much DPS you deal. If you don't like it, maybe you should find another guild with lower requirements? Or maybe be a healer or tank where you don't need to weave attacks as much? Or maybe start your own group and you'll see how you'll have no choice but to raise requirements to max CP or 20k dps unbuffed or whatever, so that you can complete content comfortably. That'll teach you not to call out elitists too - they do what's necessary.

And why do you think you are entitled to their help? They already help a lot by writing guides for everyone and making videos. Those are enough to improve. And well if you are a female - I'm telling you, you can get personal training if you look for it. That's how it usually goes. Unless you are anti-social or something. How else can they help you anyway? You don't really intersect with them in game since they are running trials with other elitists.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Oh and in regards the Jewellery, and being topped tier.. well, no one said it should be handed to them... but funny how you say, people who can't earn it, don't deserve it.. Guess what Bucky!! I can just go to Cyrodiil and buy Gold Jewellery if I REALLY feel I need it!! So don't hold your breathe about them not adding jewellery crafting and upgrading at some point, because it is coming.

No, it's not coming. It was removed actually. We crafted jewelry in beta, now it's gone and it's good. You have to reward players who put in more effort with something players who put in less effort can't get. If you don't do it, there will be no motivation for people to play. There will be no differentiation and the game will be like some MOBA.

And good for you. So go to Cyrodiil and get it then.

And yes, exactly, people who can't earn it - don't deserve it. Idk though, maybe it's some rhetoric funny for native English speakers or something, but yeah. They don't. There are other people who can complete vet trials and get those items. => the problem is not in trials, it's in players who can't complete them.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about " Less content for those with limitations?" Who said that? Are you Daft or seeing only what you want to see?
I said they needed to ADD an additional difficulty tier to Trials. One that is ABOVE normal difficulty, but Below Vet Difficulty as a stepping stone for players to get better in preperation for Vet Trials because Normal doesn't have the same mechanics and is too easy. Even for me, who has limitations! There would also be NO LEADERBOARDS for that version of Trials, just like there are none for Normal. And receiving purple jewellery at the end of that version is reasonable for the difficulty.

I think I see where your problem is. You can't read, can you? Then of course you won't read guides and learn rotations.

I was discussing aloud what to do. I said - they should maybe buff normal version that we have now, but then it might become to difficult for players with limitations, so therefore they should add a difficulty in between normal and veteran. And then described what you described here.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Seems to me, like you are afraid the MAJORITY of gamers might actually like to run that verson of Trials I'm proposing and have MORE FUN with it than trying to run the current Vet versions and getting pissed off and quitting or tired of feeling excluded.
I'm not asking for them to dumb anything down... just to add a stepping stone, a tier of progress that is not currently there, that A LOT of players actually have the ability to accomplish and work towards.

Why would I even care about that? I obviously agree they should get something like that, which you'd see if you read the comments.

Aeaeren · October 2016

LadyLethalla wrote: »

So can anyone give me any pointers on improving my DPS, for my two mains - a Stamblade and a Magplar?

The Stamblade runs a (med) mix of NMG (5pc) and HR, with 2pc Kena, all Stam enchants, and 3pc purple robust Agility (though one ring is only CP70 as I'm not willing to part with 100k or more for a CP160) with WD enchants. All purple armour except the Chest (gold) - I'd rather not gold the rest of it as I am going to change it. All my weapons are gold NMG/HR with I think absorb health enchants. All 64 pts in Stam,
I can make TBS now and I'm trying to get a Vicious Ophidian 5pc (just need rings). My DW Flurry tops at around 15k, but is more usually around 10k. Bow is less. Never done a DPS test.

TIA

Gold weapons make the most difference and dump the Absorb health and use crushing and Weapon Damage increase glyphs. Make sure your weapons are Sharpened. Leki's are great if you don't have vMA ones. Flurry is wrong skill, swap to Surprise attack unless you have vMA daggers. NMG is fine if you are the only one using it, but is someone else is using it than swap to TBS with Shadow and Thief Mundus. Bow is only used for Poison Injection and Endless hail. Buff bar basically so you shouldn't be on this bar for long. Make sure you Animation Cancel and light attack between every skill. There are good builds out there explaining Skills, weapons to use and gear choices. Alcast has good stuff for instance.

Nebthet78 · October 2016

Artis wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

You seem to come across as having an extrmely elitist attitude and that is one of the things that is sorely wrong with this game and why so many players are beginning to complain on this forum.

And you seem to come across as having an extremely carebear let's-give-stuff-to-everyone attitude, so?
My attitude absolutely doesn't matter. Substance is more important than the form. What I"m saying is true and you know it. If you don't like how it sounds, maybe it's the case of "truth hurts"?

Nebthet78 wrote: »

For myself. I find Normal Trials to be boring and too easy for me. So running them is not really all that fun.
But finding a good group of people versed enough in Vet Trials who are willing to take someone who may not pull top dps (off by between 2-7k), but at least knows the mechanics and listens to the group leader instead of screwing around is harder than you think. Especially if you are a girl.

You are delusional. Especially if you are a girl. Girls get spots in trial groups all the time because it's oh so cool and progressive to have a girl and a female voice in teamspeak make it seem that we aren't complete nerds.

In fact, I remember this girl that I found and she would run in my group and we would help her etc, we didn't even know she was a girl before we all used TS for the first time. But then some other players would always take her so she'd hang out with them and be in their group and stuff all the time and would carry her to top leader board positions, train her etc etc. Would they put that much effort into a random guy? Doubt it. So don't even start that "especially if you are a girl". Girls get way more attention and help.

Never seen a raid leader flirt with girls when they generally talk down to ("lead") or simply ignore other guys?

Nebthet78 wrote: »

"Ruin the game for the majority to cater to minority" you say? Boy are you wrong.

No.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Another issue I've seen in a couple guilds over the last month is; now that normal trials only drops blue items, people no longer want to run them as they feel the rewards are not good enough for the effort they put into it, so even if you have a scheduled guild trials date and time, you are wasting 30-40 minute trying to find enough people to do the run and trying to pull from other guilds. This frustrates higher tier players who have the dps.

That's an issue for everyone and always has been. That's the main issue with group content - organization. Average time it takes for end-game guilds where people sign up in advance to get ready is your 20-30 mins, counting from when invites are coming out until the first pull. So spending just 10 mins longer than that is not an issue if you think you deserve that gear.

The gear quality means nothing except for jewelry (where it means almost nothing), gear can be upgraded. And jewelry? It doesn't add much stat, the difference is miniscule, but it's good that you can't upgrade. That gives people incentive to do vet trials, or why would they do them otherwise if you could get the same rewards putting WAY less effort? Such system would affect the majority of players.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

It is the minority of players who are able to complete Vet and Vet Hardmode trials right now that want things to remain as hard as they are. The majority of players are walking away from doing them because they don't feel rewarded and it's no longer fun for them.

And it's good. It's a normal curve, only a minority can complete all content or no content at all. And it's good that others walk away. They are too weak and don't deserve rewards. They can get anything from their normal trials except jewelry will be worse. Are you really saying that it's good for the health of the game if different difficulties will have the same reward? Can't you see that they are just whining and being selfish and trying to get what's better for them short term rather than what's better for everyone long term?

Nebthet78 wrote: »

And yes, 20k is very doable with raid buffs, the problem is, a lot of these guilds want you to be able to do it without the buffs first and that's what sucks.

Well 20k without buffs is still doable and very average. Without buffs guilds that you'd call "elitist" expect you to do 30k+, which is not very simple. I thought you were talking about the dps in trials.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I have run with a couple of the higher tier guilds as a pull in for Vet Mode and there is a considerable difference in skill level between these players and the typical casual player or even a hardcore good player. And yes, this was recently. They have honed their roles and skills over a lot of time and it shows.

Yes, and you know what's the difference between those players and casual players? It's not skill - it's the mindset. Instead of whining that rewards aren't good enough, they understand that all players are in the same conditions and instead of whining they simply need to get better. There's absolutely no reason anyone else can't do that in PvE where everything is repetitive. If a person is bad, it's his choice. He can always practice and get there, especially if you are talking about just 20k dps. That is very average.

Your problem is that you don't have requirements. You call elitists out on their requirements, but those requirements are only in place so that they don't find themselves in your situation where a group doesn't have enough DPS. They went through this when they started, they don't want to do it again. Now it's your turn to go through this and some of you will evolve into a next generation of good players.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

My problem is, many of these guilds are not willing to take the time to help or train others. I have seen time and time again, someone who is good enough want to do Vet Trials, but because they are only a couple points off from meeting required DPS, or in the worse case, they are a female player (and yes, there are plenty of female players in many of the top guilds too), they are not considered or asked.

Wtf is that? Female player is the worse case? Female players are the ones who get personal training sessions if anything. Yes, for them someone who's good will find time and take time to explain everything and teach. It's male players who have to read and maybe get some replies in chat if they are lucky. Being a couple points off is the same for everyone - male of female won't be in a raid if they don't meet requirements. Don't bring up sexes here. DPS is a number and doesn't care about your sex.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

People like me, also, who have a disability, but finds ways to overcome them as best as possible are also left behind because those with elitist attitudes don't want to work with us to help us become better with our rotations in a manner we are able to deal with. DPS wise for me.... My tanking on the other hand I have no issue with and is fun, but I like the challenge of DPS to work at.

Well, I'm sorry, so what do you want others to do? They don't know if you're disabled or not, all they know - and all they want to know - is how much DPS you deal. If you don't like it, maybe you should find another guild with lower requirements? Or maybe be a healer or tank where you don't need to weave attacks as much? Or maybe start your own group and you'll see how you'll have no choice but to raise requirements to max CP or 20k dps unbuffed or whatever, so that you can complete content comfortably. That'll teach you not to call out elitists too - they do what's necessary.

And why do you think you are entitled to their help? They already help a lot by writing guides for everyone and making videos. Those are enough to improve. And well if you are a female - I'm telling you, you can get personal training if you look for it. That's how it usually goes. Unless you are anti-social or something. How else can they help you anyway? You don't really intersect with them in game since they are running trials with other elitists.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Oh and in regards the Jewellery, and being topped tier.. well, no one said it should be handed to them... but funny how you say, people who can't earn it, don't deserve it.. Guess what Bucky!! I can just go to Cyrodiil and buy Gold Jewellery if I REALLY feel I need it!! So don't hold your breathe about them not adding jewellery crafting and upgrading at some point, because it is coming.

No, it's not coming. It was removed actually. We crafted jewelry in beta, now it's gone and it's good. You have to reward players who put in more effort with something players who put in less effort can't get. If you don't do it, there will be no motivation for people to play. There will be no differentiation and the game will be like some MOBA.

And good for you. So go to Cyrodiil and get it then.

And yes, exactly, people who can't earn it - don't deserve it. Idk though, maybe it's some rhetoric funny for native English speakers or something, but yeah. They don't. There are other people who can complete vet trials and get those items. => the problem is not in trials, it's in players who can't complete them.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about " Less content for those with limitations?" Who said that? Are you Daft or seeing only what you want to see?
I said they needed to ADD an additional difficulty tier to Trials. One that is ABOVE normal difficulty, but Below Vet Difficulty as a stepping stone for players to get better in preperation for Vet Trials because Normal doesn't have the same mechanics and is too easy. Even for me, who has limitations! There would also be NO LEADERBOARDS for that version of Trials, just like there are none for Normal. And receiving purple jewellery at the end of that version is reasonable for the difficulty.

I think I see where your problem is. You can't read, can you? Then of course you won't read guides and learn rotations.

I was discussing aloud what to do. I said - they should maybe buff normal version that we have now, but then it might become to difficult for players with limitations, so therefore they should add a difficulty in between normal and veteran. And then described what you described here.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Seems to me, like you are afraid the MAJORITY of gamers might actually like to run that verson of Trials I'm proposing and have MORE FUN with it than trying to run the current Vet versions and getting pissed off and quitting or tired of feeling excluded.
I'm not asking for them to dumb anything down... just to add a stepping stone, a tier of progress that is not currently there, that A LOT of players actually have the ability to accomplish and work towards.

Why would I even care about that? I obviously agree they should get something like that, which you'd see if you read the comments.

We shall see what eventually happens with this game over the next year and what changes are made.

Others are already complaining about Trials now and have stated some of the issues I mentioned in my post on this thread.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/300000/did-one-tamriel-kill-trials#latest

[Edit to remove insulting content]

Humatiel · October 2016

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

CultOfMMO wrote: »

i know most people think dps is such a brain dead role, but decent dps is probably the rarest thing in this game, especially when you consider the fact that you need at least 8 dps per trial group.

This. I'm of the opinion that dishing out constant, high-end dps is MUCH harder than endgame healing or tanking.

As some one who has Tanked, DPSed and Healed all vet trials including some hard modes I disagree. DPS is a brain dead role in this game. I can pull 25k just spamming wrecking blow or snipe with dots. All you have to do is not stand in stupid and do your rotation. That is enough to clear all craglorn vet trials.

Healing is probably the hardest role in the game. Keeping buffs up, providing resources and making sure the group is alive. It is much more a dynamic role than DPS.

If you think tanking is easy you are lucky to have a good tank in your group. Though not as hard as healing it is another dynamic role compared to dpsing.

I have a tank, a healer, and a couple dps characters. There's nothing brain dead about dps. Try pulling 45-50k with Wrecking Blow spam.

I think you misunderstood my statement yes to pull 45-50k you need lots of practice and raid buffs. Almost all the craglorn trials barring VAA hard mode can be completed with 20k dps.

This game is easy. People make it unnecessarily complicated.

This I can't argue with. However, if you're not doing 45-50k, or don't have the Stormproof title (which has zero to do with whether or not you can raid in a group), then you're highly unlikely to get into a vet trial group.

So my guild runs 6 vet trials a week (all clears of course) and the vast majority of the "masses" in my guild are between 20 and 30k dps. not only do we fill the raid in seconds but we rarely ever have a team wipe.

Artis · October 2016

Nebthet78 wrote: »

We shall see what eventually happens with this game over the next year and what changes are made.

Others are already complaining about Trials now and have stated some of the issues I mentioned in my post on this thread.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/300000/did-one-tamriel-kill-trials#latest

[Edit to remove insulting content]

Instead of using forums to complain, they should use them to figure out how to play their characters - ask for advice, look for guild, read guides.

See? That's the difference between players who complete trials and then get called "elitists" and scrubs.

It's like part of students complain that the class is too hard, while their peers do their homework instead and pass.

P.s. thanks for more snacks.

Nebthet78 · October 2016

Artis wrote: »

Instead of using forums to complain, they should use them to figure out how to play their characters - ask for advice, look for guild, read guides.

See? That's the difference between players who complete trials and then get called "elitists" and scrubs.

It's like part of students complain that the class is too hard, while their peers do their homework instead and pass.

P.s. thanks for more snacks.

A lot of people do use these forums to ask for advice on how to build their toons. There's a whole other area of the forums for it right here called Combat and Mechanics:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/combat-character-mechanics

However, this thread is not about helping people with their character mechanics. It's about how hard it is for PUGs, and a lot of Guilds to even be able to do Vet Trials. It is making players feel excluded and when you do that, players begin to leave and complaints begin trickling into the general forum where they belong for constructive discussion.

Maybe you should spend more time on these forums actually HELPING other players with their toons and rotations so they can improve, instead of just telling them they can't have stuff and don't deserve things and to go play elsewhere because you feel they don't live up to your standands, which is not constructive in any way, makes you come across as an elitist jerk.

Maybe, if you don't like the way this game is going and how it caters to the casual "SKYRIM Fans", maybe this game isn't for you! It's not the typical MMO and it's definitions have been changed by the games' Director. Maybe it's YOU who should go elsewhere! (Doesn't feel good when someone tells you to suck it up or GTFO now does it?)

It's obvious you and I are not going to agree and I don't like your attitude towards a lot of other people in this forum on threads you have responded to, so I am just going to choose to ignore you from now on.

I stick by my recommendation of a Moderate Tier of Difficulty for Trials with the enemy stats directly in the middle of current Normal and Vet. Plus give it a Hard Mode option so those mechanics can be learnt.
- Blue items would drop, with a higher chance of drops for more popular sets, like Vicious Ophidian, Infallible Aether, etc.
- Purple Jewelery would drop at the end. (Seeing as how Vet still drops 1pc of Gold still & VetHM 2 pieces, this is feasible).
- Bosses and Mechanics MUST be the same as on Vet Trials so players can actually learn them!! (Here's looking at you, SO Manticora!).
- No Leaderboards.

I think this would go a heck of a long way to get people back into trials, where more players can actually learn the mechanics but also get something for their time that they can use in preperation of taking the next step and doing the Vet versions. As it is right now, there is too large of a step between Normal and Vet versions where players are getting fed up and just not doing them any more. We don't want the Vet versions nerfed.... but we do need something in between them for training purposes... and for fun...

Foxic · October 2016

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

You dont just find good people, you make good people.

There even used to be a guild for that. Training Wheels.

That was my guild. Sadly I couldn't find enough interest to make it worth my time. A majority of the people who joined stopped running after they got whatever skin/dye etc they wanted. And the people who did learn and improve left to join serious guilds(understandably)

Qbiken · October 2016

What if I told you: DPS is a group effort, you don´t achieve high dps on your own.

Foxic · October 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

As some who has lead many vet hel rah runs. The truth is you need to leave every one not max CP or stormproof out.

VAA I'd say all stormproofs.

Even max cp players lie. I have def had to replace to odd person I noticed dropping runes from his eternal hunt set.

The problem with guild runs is that every 300-400 feels entitled to be carryied through because they are in the guild.

Of course if you are willing to vet and train players I'm sure there a couple well geared 450's floating around.

That's the dumbest thing I've read in this thread yet. I took a 180cp through vet maw last week. You do not need Max cp or a vma completion to clear hel ra

SolarCat02 · October 2016

I would love a medium-difficulty version of the Trials. We are working on teaching basic mechanics via the normal, but quite a few members are itching for a bit more of a challenge, yet the DPS isn't where it needs to be yet for the veteran version.

(Normal Hel Ra Citadel took 45 minutes last night, with only two wipes, both rooted in unfortunate controller button bumps starting the fight early during the pre-fight mechanics speeches.)

We are working with the lower damage players to pull their numbers up, and it's only a matter of time before we will have outgrown the normal... But we have a ways to go to get to veteran Trials level. So medium difficulty would be awesome!

On a different note, I have been looking at the DPS numbers given in this thread as examples.
I wanted to run a guild event to test DPS (Bloodspawn obviously), and wanted to give a basic scale for numbers so people has an idea of where they stood.
Would this be somewhat accurate?
5k - still learning the basics
10k - ESO average (~3:00)
20k - competent player (~1:30)
30k - minimum for veteran trials (~1:00)
45k - elite veteran trials guild average (~0:40)

kylewwefan · October 2016

Qbiken wrote: »

What if I told you: DPS is a group effort, you don´t achieve high dps on your own.

How much damage is a full heavy armor 2H gonna be able to pull? Though I would have to say her toon did look awesome...I don't even like ebonheart, but the armor is beautifully designed.

I have ran a few regular trials since my unfruitful weekend vet raid and still can't get the VO necklace I want so bad. I'll even take it in blue. Don't care.

Artis · October 2016

Nebthet78 wrote: »

A lot of people do use these forums to ask for advice on how to build their toons. There's a whole other area of the forums for it right here called Combat and Mechanics:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/combat-character-mechanics

So that's what they should do, instead of complaining.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

However, this thread is not about helping people with their character mechanics. It's about how hard it is for PUGs, and a lot of Guilds to even be able to do Vet Trials. It is making players feel excluded and when you do that, players begin to leave and complaints begin trickling into the general forum where they belong for constructive discussion.

Their complains are "oh it's so hard". Well, it's supposed to be hard, that's why they are VETERAN trials. Others do it so it's not impossible. If you can't - do it on normal difficulty and progress in vet slowly. Ask for a medium difficulty by all means. But that's still counter-productive. All the guides and character mechanics are already online. Go to tamrielfoundry.com forum of your class and find the guide for your build. Everything that works is already there. Just copy the build and practice. When comfortable and hitting decent numbers- tweak if needed.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Maybe you should spend more time on these forums actually HELPING other players with their toons and rotations so they can improve, instead of just telling them they can't have stuff and don't deserve things and to go play elsewhere because you feel they don't live up to your standands, which is not constructive in any way, makes you come across as an elitist jerk.

I can't, then I'll become bad, I'd rather spend this time practicing in game or helping others there. JK. But seriously, if somebody asks me I always help. But they rarely do, instead they go to forums to whine. And I can't be on forums all the time. Only if I have a short break at work or a loading screen is long. When I'm home and free, I'd rather be online in game, than on forums. But you picked a wrong person to blame. I always help when asked. When I had time and energy, I was leading small groups too.

And well, they can't have stuff and deserve it at the moment, that's why we're having this conversation at all. It's up to them to change it though.

And please, stop and think about what you just said. You scrubs are impossible to satisfy. You aren't constructive? You're an elitist jerk. You are constructive and telling them what to do during a dungeon run? You're an elitist jerk again. No guys, you need to choose which one. Oh you didn't like my tone or something? Well, if you're in a position where you're learning from me, then you're not in a position to make demands whether it's my tone or anything else. Because you need me. But no, you'll kick me from a group or call me a jerk and then will go to forum to create a thread about elitists (not you in particular, an abstract "you")

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Maybe, if you don't like the way this game is going and how it caters to the casual "SKYRIM Fans", maybe this game isn't for you! It's not the typical MMO and it's definitions have been changed by the games' Director. Maybe it's YOU who should go elsewhere! (Doesn't feel good when someone tells you to suck it up or GTFO now does it?)

Oh no honey, it's YOU who doesn't like how the game is going and catering to MMO fans, that's why you complain. I am perfectly content that some people can't complete some content on veteran difficulty. That's how it should be.
And no, it doesn't feel bad or good, it just causes no emotions in me. Suck it up or GTFO is the only right attitude and I had it before I started playing. Nothing depends on me, no one will listen to what I want. The devs will make a game and I either pay or not. It's just how it is.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

It's obvious you and I are not going to agree and I don't like your attitude towards a lot of other people in this forum on threads you have responded to, so I am just going to choose to ignore you from now on.

Of course you will. Because I said mean things. Boohoo. Instead of caring about the substance you care about the form. That's why people like you don't listen to an advice in dungeons if it was said directly and to the point. And that's why you will keep complaining until the nerf things for you and add a new difficulty for you. You need to change your attitude.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I stick by my recommendation of a Moderate Tier of Difficulty for Trials with the enemy stats directly in the middle of current Normal and Vet. Plus give it a Hard Mode option so those mechanics can be learnt.
- Blue items would drop, with a higher chance of drops for more popular sets, like Vicious Ophidian, Infallible Aether, etc.
- Purple Jewelery would drop at the end. (Seeing as how Vet still drops 1pc of Gold still & VetHM 2 pieces, this is feasible).
- Bosses and Mechanics MUST be the same as on Vet Trials so players can actually learn them!! (Here's looking at you, SO Manticora!).
- No Leaderboards.

That's obviously a good idea. Pretty much what I said somewhere above, too. Not sure why they still didn't implement it. We all had discussions like that since vMA release, where people did notice how huge the difference between difficulties is.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I think this would go a heck of a long way to get people back into trials, where more players can actually learn the mechanics but also get something for their time that they can use in preperation of taking the next step and doing the Vet versions. As it is right now, there is too large of a step between Normal and Vet versions where players are getting fed up and just not doing them any more. We don't want the Vet versions nerfed.... but we do need something in between them for training purposes... and for fun...

Have an agree. That makes perfect sense.

Destruent · October 2016

SolarCat02 wrote: »

I would love a medium-difficulty version of the Trials. We are working on teaching basic mechanics via the normal, but quite a few members are itching for a bit more of a challenge, yet the DPS isn't where it needs to be yet for the veteran version.

(Normal Hel Ra Citadel took 45 minutes last night, with only two wipes, both rooted in unfortunate controller button bumps starting the fight early during the pre-fight mechanics speeches.)

We are working with the lower damage players to pull their numbers up, and it's only a matter of time before we will have outgrown the normal... But we have a ways to go to get to veteran Trials level. So medium difficulty would be awesome!

On a different note, I have been looking at the DPS numbers given in this thread as examples.
I wanted to run a guild event to test DPS (Bloodspawn obviously), and wanted to give a basic scale for numbers so people has an idea of where they stood.
Would this be somewhat accurate?
5k - still learning the basics
10k - ESO average (~3:00)
20k - competent player (~1:30)
30k - minimum for veteran trials (~1:00)
45k - elite veteran trials guild average (~0:40)

If you are talking about an unbuffed (no groupbuffs, only selfbuffed...maybe with ele-drain for sustain) 45k is really high imo. but no idea what's possible atm

SolarCat02 · October 2016

Destruent wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

I would love a medium-difficulty version of the Trials. We are working on teaching basic mechanics via the normal, but quite a few members are itching for a bit more of a challenge, yet the DPS isn't where it needs to be yet for the veteran version.

(Normal Hel Ra Citadel took 45 minutes last night, with only two wipes, both rooted in unfortunate controller button bumps starting the fight early during the pre-fight mechanics speeches.)

We are working with the lower damage players to pull their numbers up, and it's only a matter of time before we will have outgrown the normal... But we have a ways to go to get to veteran Trials level. So medium difficulty would be awesome!

On a different note, I have been looking at the DPS numbers given in this thread as examples.
I wanted to run a guild event to test DPS (Bloodspawn obviously), and wanted to give a basic scale for numbers so people has an idea of where they stood.
Would this be somewhat accurate?
5k - still learning the basics
10k - ESO average (~3:00)
20k - competent player (~1:30)
30k - minimum for veteran trials (~1:00)
45k - elite veteran trials guild average (~0:40)

If you are talking about an unbuffed (no groupbuffs, only selfbuffed...maybe with ele-drain for sustain) 45k is really high imo. but no idea what's possible atm

Elemental Drain, and Siphon Spirit if requested, from the healer.
Pierce Armor from the tank.
And everything else self-provided.

I don't really know what the expected numbers are at the moment. We are one of those "training guilds" I guess you could say. If everyone took the test (it's optional, sort of a "free health screening" if you will) I would expect only a few people around or above 20k (and I can guess who they are, as well), quite a few below 10k (and I am confident in my predictions there, too), and the bulk of our dps around 15k.

Was 45k for stamina before the tweaks to Enchantments including the maelstrom weapons? I understand that stamina and magicka are about on par now, with magicka having a bit easier time to get higher numbers but stamina able to hit harder if they are really good.

I am just hoping for an idea of the current numbers so I can let people know about where they stand, if they want to find out. Then let them decide how they want to use that information, depending on the bits of the game they enjoy.
Our normal trials and undaunted key runs will be open to everyone regardless, but now some people who can't do the veteran Hardmodes yet will have an idea on how to get there, and those who want to get into the veteran trials group will see how far they are from their goal.

Xrucible · October 2016

x

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

KingYogi415 wrote: »

As some who has lead many vet hel rah runs. The truth is you need to leave every one not max CP or stormproof out.

VAA I'd say all stormproofs.

Even max cp players lie. I have def had to replace to odd person I noticed dropping runes from his eternal hunt set.

The problem with guild runs is that every 300-400 feels entitled to be carryied through because they are in the guild.

Of course if you are willing to vet and train players I'm sure there a couple well geared 450's floating around.

That's the dumbest thing I've read in this thread yet. I took a 180cp through vet maw last week. You do not need Max cp or a vma completion to clear hel ra

This.. There is a huge stigma surrounding vet trials that people automatically assume that you have to do astronomical dps to clear those. Then they keep adding arbitrary requirements like stormproof and high CP which makes no sense whatsoever. As @Humatiel mentioned half of my guild members aren't even CP capped and we clear normal vet trials with no issues whatsoever.

BlackEar · October 2016

xeNNNNN wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

This is the only thing that happens when you increase difficulty with scaling. Failed runs.

Normal Hel Ra exists.

Normal is pointless, nobody wants blue jewlery and blue gear. (you can ofc upgrade the gear but still lol)

The only reason anyone would run normal is too quickly get the coffers for the motiffs thats it tbh.

A lot of people are running it for the gear, both armor and jewelry, so you are wrong at that point.

LEGENDARYYY · October 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

As some who has lead many vet hel rah runs. The truth is you need to leave every one not max CP or stormproof out.

VAA I'd say all stormproofs.

Even max cp players lie. I have def had to replace to odd person I noticed dropping runes from his eternal hunt set.

The problem with guild runs is that every 300-400 feels entitled to be carryied through because they are in the guild.

Of course if you are willing to vet and train players I'm sure there a couple well geared 450's floating around.

Problem is, a CP 300 can be way better than a CP 561. It is a bad measurement and requirement if you ask me.

I personally took a break from ESO for a long time when CP was released. I had done all the vet trials and hard stuff in the game and had about 5000 hours played.

When I came back, people treated me like I was worthless since I was sitting with about 200CP. But when they finally let me come with I had no problems performing at all.

At 450CP I got 555k score in vMSA and was placed 16th in leaderboards.

I'd be a bit careful about judging people from their CP, as many oldschoolers may be returning to the game etc:)

Some players are low CP because they actually played the content (trials, vCoS, vMSA) instead of braindead grinding too.

Yesterday I ran as a tank with 3 other 561CP players and the total group dps was 15k with horn...........

Destruent · October 2016

SolarCat02 wrote: »

Elemental Drain, and Siphon Spirit if requested, from the healer.
Pierce Armor from the tank.
And everything else self-provided.

I don't really know what the expected numbers are at the moment. We are one of those "training guilds" I guess you could say. If everyone took the test (it's optional, sort of a "free health screening" if you will) I would expect only a few people around or above 20k (and I can guess who they are, as well), quite a few below 10k (and I am confident in my predictions there, too), and the bulk of our dps around 15k.

Was 45k for stamina before the tweaks to Enchantments including the maelstrom weapons? I understand that stamina and magicka are about on par now, with magicka having a bit easier time to get higher numbers but stamina able to hit harder if they are really good.

I am just hoping for an idea of the current numbers so I can let people know about where they stand, if they want to find out. Then let them decide how they want to use that information, depending on the bits of the game they enjoy.
Our normal trials and undaunted key runs will be open to everyone regardless, but now some people who can't do the veteran Hardmodes yet will have an idea on how to get there, and those who want to get into the veteran trials group will see how far they are from their goal.

Haven't seen 45k on Bloodspawn before One Tamriel, but could be possible. But with the current HP of bloodspawn (~3.1kk) getting there is a lot harder. When i did bloodspawn (this patch) last time i was at 34k, could go up to 35...36k if i really go for it (and if i use the moondancer spelldmg-buff instead of the regen one). Maybe someone else can push it a bit higher.
But i guess 30k+ is rly good atm and more than enough for all content (including ALL hardmodes).

I hope it helps you a bit