I've done vet Hel Ra ~10 times with randoms only (randoms meaning guildmates from several guilds I have, always different groups with only two or three regulars) and got it on all four of my DD chars and healer by now. But I guess filtering for ppl with at least 400 cp or have completed it already does the deal. So it doesn't require a fully coordinated team, only a few that know and indicate anything there is to do or avoid. Same goes for vAA and vSO, done those with randoms too, vSO with hard mode. It's mostly just a thing of how fast people can adapt to new mechanics. Teamspeak is absolutely needed though, tried once without, was a disaster.

@Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I dropped out of HRC a few days ago because it seemed noone had any dps at all and the healers couldnt keep anyone alive for the 10 minutes it took to fight gargoyles, first time I've ever had to bail on a trial because it just wasnt gonna happen

Well, when you start doing dungeons, youre clearing normal version first, right? Not some vet dlc hardmode.
Its the same with the trials... Normal mode exists so new players can learn the mechanics and gear up.
P.S. Also seem like it wasnt just a vet version, someone also activated the hardmode XD What a troll.

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I am positive it's a DPS issue. I agree, there is no gear you can get that's going to make your Damage skyrocket. You'd have to be doing good DPS already. Good DPS is all that's required. 10k + would likely be enough......that's right 10k. Many people don't do that. For reals.

Then there's organization. Yeah. It not so good when 10 people go running all over the map.

I've actually yet to have a bad tank or bad healer in vet trials. Maybe one bad healer. Low Damage is by far the biggest problem.

When you get the warrior to 65% health, you have 5 minutes to get him down to 30% health or he wipes the group. Before you get there, notice how long it takes to burn down the air atro. If seems like it takes forever......this is a good time to throw in the towel.

Actually, 10k dps is rather low, even for normal Trials. Most guilds I know require their members to have 15k dps for normal.

However, PC NA, Vet Trials requirements by a lot of the top guilds who are running require players to have 30k+ single target dps before they will ever consider allowing you into a Trial with them.
Other guilds with not so top tier members are requiring about 20k single target DPS.

For a lot of people, reaching those numbers is near impossible.. Yes, they could work on it a lot, work on their rotation etc, etc, but for the average player, they are either not going to be able to put in that much effort due to having a real life, or they have physical disability issues that give them additional limitations that can't be overcome.

Like a few others, I find that running the Normal dungeons is not rewarding at all. No one wants blue jewellery. At least not until ZOS makes it so it can be upgraded by crafters. Blue armor you can already do that with. Some people say there isn't much of a difference between the blue and purple, only a few points difference. True, but add those 30pts across three pieces and it can make just that much more difference to someone's DPS or survivability.

I still think ZOS really needs to make a middle tier Trials that's between normal and Vet modes. Give players a stepping stone to work towards. The difficulty difference between Normal and Vet modes is HUGE!!! Players burn through the normal enemies so quickly that there isn't a chance to learn all the mechanics. PLUS, some of the bosses don't even have the same mechanics as they do on Vet mode.

A middle ground trial is actually required, especially if players want to progress better into Vet Trials by learning the mechanics. I would also say this middle ground would also drop all purple gear and jewellery, but no gold stuff at all, where Vet gets you one gold at the end and Hardmode gives you two.

A lot of the more casual players don't want to spend 3hrs at a time trying to figure out the mechanics and rotations learning the Vet Dungeons. That's not fun for them and so they get frustrated and leave. I have seen it over and over again and it creates tension in the guild between players who can do the best dps and want the hard challenge and those who just can't do it. A middle ground with no Leaderboard would go a long way to helping these players improve their game, while allowing them to have fun and feel like they accomplished something.

The thing is, if you are new to Trials and cannot pull 25k dps solo consistently, I really just cannot take you along in a Vet Trial run. Why? Since you are new to Trials, your 25k dps will turn into 15k dps because you are focused on mechanics and not dieing. 15K dps is enough to have a smooth experience and actually be able to complete Vet Trials.

But if you are pulling 15k dps solo, that will turn into 5k dps, and that's just not enough to have a good time for anyone in the group.

And that is why I am saying there needs to be a middle tier to Trials. So people can learn the mechanics of Vet, but still complete and get some better drops. Give these players a stepping stone to improve their skills and rotation while still learning. It also helps a lot to have teamspeak and know what the heck you are doing and how to follow instructions from Raid Leaders.

So can anyone give me any pointers on improving my DPS, for my two mains - a Stamblade and a Magplar?

The Stamblade runs a (med) mix of NMG (5pc) and HR, with 2pc Kena, all Stam enchants, and 3pc purple robust Agility (though one ring is only CP70 as I'm not willing to part with 100k or more for a CP160) with WD enchants. All purple armour except the Chest (gold) - I'd rather not gold the rest of it as I am going to change it. All my weapons are gold NMG/HR with I think absorb health enchants. All 64 pts in Stam,
I can make TBS now and I'm trying to get a Vicious Ophidian 5pc (just need rings). My DW Flurry tops at around 15k, but is more usually around 10k. Bow is less. Never done a DPS test.

The Magplar runs a (med) mix of Kagrenac (5pc) and Seducers and 2pc Lord Warden, all purple with Mag enchants (except Chest is gold with health enchant), with I think 3pc Endurance Healthy with HR enchants (she was a vamp, but I need to swap that out now, just have to remember to do it). Weapons/Shield are Kags/ Seducers as well (she's DW and 1HS), with I think absorb health enchants (shield has a Stam enchant). 62 points in Mag, 2 pts in Health.
I cured her vampirism on the weekend, and recrafted/enchanted her gear but didn't see terribly much improvement in DPS, which seems to be about the same as the Stamblade. I tend to run her with Luminous Shards and Extended Ritual/Restoring Focus to assist the healer in Trials/ Dungeons.

TIA

Artis wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Actually, 10k dps is rather low, even for normal Trials. Most guilds I know require their members to have 15k dps for normal.

However, PC NA, Vet Trials requirements by a lot of the top guilds who are running require players to have 30k+ single target dps before they will ever consider allowing you into a Trial with them.
Other guilds with not so top tier members are requiring about 20k single target DPS.

For a lot of people, reaching those numbers is near impossible.. Yes, they could work on it a lot, work on their rotation etc, etc, but for the average player, they are either not going to be able to put in that much effort due to having a real life, or they have physical disability issues that give them additional limitations that can't be overcome.

20k is absolutely doable with the raid buff, come on. And if a player has decent gear that complements his build (magicka or stamina), uses dots and weaves - then there's no reason he can't reach 20k. All the things except for weaves don't require practice. And weaves.. well if they played long enough to be able to go to trials then they had more than enough time to practice weaving. Or if not - then they can start now and just do it whenever they fight. Very soon they'll be decent at it. And if they have other limitations - well, too bad? What do you suggest we do about it? Ruin the game for the majority to cater to minority? They have content designed for them. Or maybe there are other games for them. Not everyone can get everything, such is life.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Like a few others, I find that running the Normal dungeons is not rewarding at all. No one wants blue jewellery. At least not until ZOS makes it so it can be upgraded by crafters. Blue armor you can already do that with. Some people say there isn't much of a difference between the blue and purple, only a few points difference. True, but add those 30pts across three pieces and it can make just that much more difference to someone's DPS or survivability.

Ok, let's add 30pts across 3 pieces. It will make 90 points difference in a stat. That is nothing. It's negligibly small. But also, and more importantly, if those sets aren't good enough for you when they are blue - good, use other sets of better quality. Oh you want better quality of these sets? Well then become a better player who plays good enough to deserve those sets. Or find a group to carry you.

That gear is for those who can handle the challenge. You shouldn't expect top gear to be handed for easier content. You should not expect to not have better rewards for harder content. And there always be players who can't complete harder content. So what, they should be just handed top jewelry? No, they don't deserve it, they don't meet requirements to get it. It just happened so, that you are one of those players currently.

You have two choices. 1 - practice and improve. 2- whine and complain on forums and ask devs to give the same gear to everyone, thus trying to kill the game since there would be no differentiation in access to gear and skill/commitment wouldn't be rewarded.

So, if you are reading this, guess you won't get vet trials done any time soon...

And rings absolutely shouldn't be upgraded by crafters in the current state of the game. It would mean that players can just get them blue in easy modes and then upgrade . They don't deserve having everything minmaxed if they can't complete that content. They should have that little bit of stat missing to push them to get better. They already can do that with all gear except for jewelry too. That is too much. They should make gear from normals cp150 or cp159 or something. Intentionally suboptimal.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I still think ZOS really needs to make a middle tier Trials that's between normal and Vet modes. Give players a stepping stone to work towards. The difficulty difference between Normal and Vet modes is HUGE!!! Players burn through the normal enemies so quickly that there isn't a chance to learn all the mechanics. PLUS, some of the bosses don't even have the same mechanics as they do on Vet mode.

A middle ground trial is actually required, especially if players want to progress better into Vet Trials by learning the mechanics. I would also say this middle ground would also drop all purple gear and jewellery, but no gold stuff at all, where Vet gets you one gold at the end and Hardmode gives you two.

GOod point. Should be 1 more difficulty or normal difficulty must be buffed to stop being trivial. But then - less content for players with limitations, so I guess they should name normal easy and add normal as a moderate difficulty trial. But you need to understand, that vet is still supposed to have better rewards since it's higher challenge + a leaderboard activity. And you need to understand that some players still won' be able to complete it (and might whine too) and actually you might be one of those players and still won't get top jewelry. Will you be okay with that? Or is this all jsut because you can't get top gear?

Nebthet78 wrote: »

A lot of the more casual players don't want to spend 3hrs at a time trying to figure out the mechanics and rotations learning the Vet Dungeons. That's not fun for them and so they get frustrated and leave. I have seen it over and over again and it creates tension in the guild between players who can do the best dps and want the hard challenge and those who just can't do it. A middle ground with no Leaderboard would go a long way to helping these players improve their game, while allowing them to have fun and feel like they accomplished something.

So there are other dungeons for them where they can get rewards that they deserve. But yes, see, now you see why many players complained the content was too easy. Because it was and still is in normal dungeons. They should add dungeons similar in difficulty to old vet dungeons before they buffed them in 1T.

You seem to come across as having an extrmely elitist attitude and that is one of the things that is sorely wrong with this game and why so many players are beginning to complain on this forum.

For myself. I find Normal Trials to be boring and too easy for me. So running them is not really all that fun.
But finding a good group of people versed enough in Vet Trials who are willing to take someone who may not pull top dps (off by between 2-7k), but at least knows the mechanics and listens to the group leader instead of screwing around is harder than you think. Especially if you are a girl.

"Ruin the game for the majority to cater to minority" you say? Boy are you wrong.

Another issue I've seen in a couple guilds over the last month is; now that normal trials only drops blue items, people no longer want to run them as they feel the rewards are not good enough for the effort they put into it, so even if you have a scheduled guild trials date and time, you are wasting 30-40 minute trying to find enough people to do the run and trying to pull from other guilds. This frustrates higher tier players who have the dps.

It is the minority of players who are able to complete Vet and Vet Hardmode trials right now that want things to remain as hard as they are. The majority of players are walking away from doing them because they don't feel rewarded and it's no longer fun for them.

And yes, 20k is very doable with raid buffs, the problem is, a lot of these guilds want you to be able to do it without the buffs first and that's what sucks.

I have run with a couple of the higher tier guilds as a pull in for Vet Mode and there is a considerable difference in skill level between these players and the typical casual player or even a hardcore good player. And yes, this was recently. They have honed their roles and skills over a lot of time and it shows.

My problem is, many of these guilds are not willing to take the time to help or train others. I have seen time and time again, someone who is good enough want to do Vet Trials, but because they are only a couple points off from meeting required DPS, or in the worse case, they are a female player (and yes, there are plenty of female players in many of the top guilds too), they are not considered or asked.

People like me, also, who have a disability, but finds ways to overcome them as best as possible are also left behind because those with elitist attitudes don't want to work with us to help us become better with our rotations in a manner we are able to deal with. DPS wise for me.... My tanking on the other hand I have no issue with and is fun, but I like the challenge of DPS to work at.

Oh and in regards the Jewellery, and being topped tier.. well, no one said it should be handed to them... but funny how you say, people who can't earn it, don't deserve it.. Guess what Bucky!! I can just go to Cyrodiil and buy Gold Jewellery if I REALLY feel I need it!! So don't hold your breathe about them not adding jewellery crafting and upgrading at some point, because it is coming.

What the hell are you talking about " Less content for those with limitations?" Who said that? Are you Daft or seeing only what you want to see?
I said they needed to ADD an additional difficulty tier to Trials. One that is ABOVE normal difficulty, but Below Vet Difficulty as a stepping stone for players to get better in preperation for Vet Trials because Normal doesn't have the same mechanics and is too easy. Even for me, who has limitations! There would also be NO LEADERBOARDS for that version of Trials, just like there are none for Normal. And receiving purple jewellery at the end of that version is reasonable for the difficulty.

Seems to me, like you are afraid the MAJORITY of gamers might actually like to run that verson of Trials I'm proposing and have MORE FUN with it than trying to run the current Vet versions and getting pissed off and quitting or tired of feeling excluded.
I'm not asking for them to dumb anything down... just to add a stepping stone, a tier of progress that is not currently there, that A LOT of players actually have the ability to accomplish and work towards.

@kylewwefan
I usually host veteran trials and if I'm crown I have no problem being the "bad guy" calling you out. Now I won't embarrass you unless you fail to listen; let me clarify what I mean by "embarrass", I simply mean if I tell you that snipe or dizzing swing isn't a form of good DPS and you refuse to listen to me then I will personally type the name in group chat n state the issue.

This isn't a good way to go about doing it but I'm quick to fix the issue if the player(s) doesn't want to comply and wants to cause the group to wipe because they want to play a non efficent style then by all means you'll be leaving this group. It's harsh but people need to know that we have different things going on in our life and wasting our time wiping because of lack of a role being preformed correctly even after being told the problem, then they need to exit.

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

I could get them myself I suppose... but I prefer to play in a group rather then solo.

@raidentenshu_ESO That naive thought of people that one can just go farm vMA and get vMA weapons. It was like this before Dark Brotherhood (which is where all end-game players that haven't quit due to that fact yet have their gear from). But what drops in the chest nowadays is ridiculous. "Running it a few hundred times" is way underestimated to get a Sharpened Inferno. When farming for stamina (Sharpened Dagger + Sharpened Axe + Sharpened Bow), you're facing impossible odds. Chances are close to zero to get it even in 1000+ runs.

xeNNNNN wrote: »

The unfortunate truth right now is that the mechanics are less important compared too DPS meaning virtually everything about the trials right now is a DPS race.

two examples:

Hel-Ra - If you cant burn the warrior down quick enough you get swamped with mobs.
Atherian archive - If you cant kill the mini mages fast enough, too many spawn and you get crushed utterly.

I havent even bothered with Maw Of Lorkaj or Sanctum ophidia - simply because everything is too much of a dps race.

Sure its important to know the mechanics in order to prevent your group from wiping but ultimately all comes down to who can burn it fast enough. Which really...is kind of sad to be honest. I want the mechanics too actually matter way more. Sure it could prove a problem for unorganised groups if they add more complicated mechanics and such but frankly the percentage of people running high DPS consistently compared to the rest of the games population is pretty small.

But DPS depends on many factors not only the DPS player. Good supports double the amount of DPS people do. Proper Debuffs and buffs rotation also increase the DPS (Tanks too). You can't say everything is a DPS race and you don't need mechanics. Problem is that this game requires you to play good. And in most of the cases you have amazing DPS but mechanics destroy the group. You only need around 25k+ per player even if 40k+ is achievable.

Good Gear and an easy rotation gives you 25k+ if you have good supports.

Anyway, not puggable that's for sure, you need an actual team.

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Yeah...3x 30=90 add in some multipliers and CP and you are at 150 stat difference between purple and blue and 300 between blue and gold. Do you guys really want to call this a reason for anything?

So just imagine someone with 3.5k Spelldmg and 40k magicka and compare it to 3.5k spelldmg and 40.3k magicka. That's a 0.4% DPS-Increase. This won't change anything.

Thanks for the math, because that's something I really never understood (the race for gold/purple jewelry).

But what makes normal trial runs uninteresting is the abysmal low drop rate for high end weapons/jewelry (like VO). Three month of nearly regular runs has netted me 1 ring and 1 necklace of VO in total. I really don't want to run normal trials anymore.

Weapondroprate is incredibly low even on vet. Jewelry should drop a bit more often now, and you can also trade with your group. You also can't really expect to get your gear as fast as in vetmode....the difference in difficulty is just too big.

btw. it took me 7 months to get my moondancer weapons in vMoL+ weekly. Sadly 3 months farming is like nothing atm...

Destruent wrote: »

Weapondroprate is incredibly low even on vet. Jewelry should drop a bit more often now, and you can also trade with your group. You also can't really expect to get your gear as fast as in vetmode....the difference in difficulty is just too big.

btw. it took me 7 months to get my moondancer weapons in vMoL+ weekly. Sadly 3 months farming is like nothing atm...

I think they should increase the drop rate a little bit.
But currently it's virtually impossible to find people willing to run trials (regardless of normal/veteran) on my platform unless you are in an already established guild.

The majority of issues I've seen from trial groups I've been a part of that failed is an equal lack of DPS and lack of knowing/ability to learn the mechanics. They both play hand-in-hand. If you have good DPS and stand in stupid you're worthless, if you don't stand in stupid and have good DPS you're equally as useless.

Many people brings friends into trials or trial guilds based purely on friendship and not on ability. Which is always a huge issue too.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

As some who has lead many vet hel rah runs. The truth is you need to leave every one not max CP or stormproof out.

VAA I'd say all stormproofs.

Even max cp players lie. I have def had to replace to odd person I noticed dropping runes from his eternal hunt set.

The problem with guild runs is that every 300-400 feels entitled to be carryied through because they are in the guild.

Of course if you are willing to vet and train players I'm sure there a couple well geared 450's floating around.

either your team lacks some serious coordination or all your players are below average. My guild has clear vAA, vSO, vHRC smoothly for ages now and there are plenty of players that are either not max cp or stormproof. In fact, if combat metrics is any accurate, some of our 400s and even 300s players are pulling incredibly competitive dps.

stop worshiping CP

zyk wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly a PUG; it was all guild players....from a few different guilds, but nowhere near enough DPS. Why is it so freaking hard to find good DPS? Why do I keep doing this to myself? Maybe I should just stick with daily pledges.

Because 99.99% of the game is so ridiculously easy, almost no one actually learns how to play.

Ding ding ding