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So.... Who wants 1.5 back now?
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Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Using your logic, quoting the guy who just posted that magicka is still overpowered in PvP proofs that there is no current magicka meta.Nope, absolutely hated the harry potter dress wearing fotm that lasted for months and months:P
I rolled a Stamblade for my main PvP char at PC launch (!) and refused to wear a pretty dress and play with wooden sticks.
Anyone who thinks 1.5 was balanced was part of the pretty dress meta, simple as that ...
I played a very viable Stam build in 1.5.
Was amazing in group play, open world, and in duels I could go toe to toe with FoTM Magica DKs.
To think I once got respect for having a Stam build, makes me giggle.
Nothing to see here folks, @Manoekin just provided proof the current game is balanced!
You might actually be an idiot man. The only thing magicka has going for it is destro ult. If your idea of balance is to add an ult that's just a prox det that goes off every second for 10(?) seconds I really don't want to play any games you have a hand in. Aside from that you have no reason to be magicka unless you're healing. A lot of people prefer magicka, but it's just simply not as good and that's an unbiased fact. 1.4/1.5 had actual balance, even between stam/magicka. It wasn't around long enough to develop past stam = ganker. Steve kinda figured it out imo. I remember him from back then and he really stood out not just because he was stam, but because he made just as much of an impact as the other players around him. If you look back on the game's history no one figured out that negate was a good ultimate until like a month into the game (lol). It took at least 2-3 patches before Krim figured out nightblades could not only compete but be potentially the best class in the game when played right. Before that every nightblade used a bow or they rerolled. DK builds evolved a lot from launch to 1.5. A lot of changes to gear/stat distributions. Templars weren't even the preferred healers early on. Sorc resto heals were insanely stronger and they had better sustain. None of these things happened because of buffs/nerfs, but just because players figured things out. The ability was there, just player ingenuity hadn't gotten to the point where stam became widespread outside of gankers.
TLDR, redesigning your entire game when it was working well wasn't the answer.
This is a good summary.
One of the big problems with early days ESO is that most mechanics were hidden from the players. Thus we had no feedback to discover things except by fighting, hence the slow pace of discovery on NB and Templar builds. DKs and Sorcs had much more understandable mechanics which figured out during beta.
Can't remember if it was krim or Mojar Stalker that introduced sap tanks around 1.3/1.4. and araxleon didn't introduce the burst magicka NB until 1.5. well played Templars in 1.5 were nearly unlikable, and were hard counters to the DK (flashes plus blazing shield).
Stamina has been stronger than magicka on all classes since 1.6, with the exception of mSorc in 1.6 and mTemplar in 1.8. Magicka was stronger pre 1.6, but the gap had narrowed considerably and was largely a result of player ignorance. Good example of this given by Steve and a few others (Mrs Jones).
Regardless, ZoS decided to totally revamp a combat system that wasn't fundamentally broken. It just needed a bit more variety and continuing changes.
I'll pose the point this way: what if, instead of utilizing so much time remaking stat values and combat they had focused on balance and content additions within the system they already had? I bet they would be six months ahead in content than they are now, the balance would be better, and more players would play. God it took 18 months from launch to see imperial city!9 -
Eirella✭✭✭✭✭I can't believe I'm saying this but I actually really hate pvp right now and think I'm starting to prefer pve. The stam meta just killed it for me. -_-10 -
IxSTALKERxI✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Using your logic, quoting the guy who just posted that magicka is still overpowered in PvP proofs that there is no current magicka meta.Nope, absolutely hated the harry potter dress wearing fotm that lasted for months and months:P
I rolled a Stamblade for my main PvP char at PC launch (!) and refused to wear a pretty dress and play with wooden sticks.
Anyone who thinks 1.5 was balanced was part of the pretty dress meta, simple as that ...I played a very viable Stam build in 1.5.
Was amazing in group play, open world, and in duels I could go toe to toe with FoTM Magica DKs.
To think I once got respect for having a Stam build, makes me giggle.
Nothing to see here folks, @Manoekin just provided proof the current game is balanced!
You might actually be an idiot man. The only thing magicka has going for it is destro ult. If your idea of balance is to add an ult that's just a prox det that goes off every second for 10(?) seconds I really don't want to play any games you have a hand in. Aside from that you have no reason to be magicka unless you're healing. A lot of people prefer magicka, but it's just simply not as good and that's an unbiased fact. 1.4/1.5 had actual balance, even between stam/magicka. It wasn't around long enough to develop past stam = ganker. Steve kinda figured it out imo. I remember him from back then and he really stood out not just because he was stam, but because he made just as much of an impact as the other players around him. If you look back on the game's history no one figured out that negate was a good ultimate until like a month into the game (lol). It took at least 2-3 patches before Krim figured out nightblades could not only compete but be potentially the best class in the game when played right. Before that every nightblade used a bow or they rerolled. DK builds evolved a lot from launch to 1.5. A lot of changes to gear/stat distributions. Templars weren't even the preferred healers early on. Sorc resto heals were insanely stronger and they had better sustain. None of these things happened because of buffs/nerfs, but just because players figured things out. The ability was there, just player ingenuity hadn't gotten to the point where stam became widespread outside of gankers.
TLDR, redesigning your entire game when it was working well wasn't the answer.
This is a good summary.
One of the big problems with early days ESO is that most mechanics were hidden from the players. Thus we had no feedback to discover things except by fighting, hence the slow pace of discovery on NB and Templar builds. DKs and Sorcs had much more understandable mechanics which figured out during beta.
Can't remember if it was krim or Mojar Stalker that introduced sap tanks around 1.3/1.4. and araxleon didn't introduce the burst magicka NB until 1.5. well played Templars in 1.5 were nearly unlikable, and were hard counters to the DK (flashes plus blazing shield).
Stamina has been stronger than magicka on all classes since 1.6, with the exception of mSorc in 1.6 and mTemplar in 1.8. Magicka was stronger pre 1.6, but the gap had narrowed considerably and was largely a result of player ignorance. Good example of this given by Steve and a few others (Mrs Jones).
Regardless, ZoS decided to totally revamp a combat system that wasn't fundamentally broken. It just needed a bit more variety and continuing changes.
I'll pose the point this way: what if, instead of utilizing so much time remaking stat values and combat they had focused on balance and content additions within the system they already had? I bet they would be six months ahead in content than they are now, the balance would be better, and more players would play. God it took 18 months from launch to see imperial city!
Azoi was also runnin sap tank around the same time as krim and I, but I actually think gottbeard may have been one of the first to start running it. I don't think any of us knew of each other at the time though lol.NA | PC | Aldmeri DominionLaser Eyes AR 26 Arcanist | Stalker V AR 41 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 31 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 31 Sorc | Nigel the Great of BlackwaterFormer Emperor x11 campaign cyclesVenatus Officer | RIP RÁGE | YouTube Channel0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I dont care, except I just want the procc sets meta to f*** off!
PC EU
PvP only3 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IxSTALKERxI wrote: »
Using your logic, quoting the guy who just posted that magicka is still overpowered in PvP proofs that there is no current magicka meta.Nope, absolutely hated the harry potter dress wearing fotm that lasted for months and months:P
I rolled a Stamblade for my main PvP char at PC launch (!) and refused to wear a pretty dress and play with wooden sticks.
Anyone who thinks 1.5 was balanced was part of the pretty dress meta, simple as that ...I played a very viable Stam build in 1.5.
Was amazing in group play, open world, and in duels I could go toe to toe with FoTM Magica DKs.
To think I once got respect for having a Stam build, makes me giggle.
Nothing to see here folks, @Manoekin just provided proof the current game is balanced!
You might actually be an idiot man. The only thing magicka has going for it is destro ult. If your idea of balance is to add an ult that's just a prox det that goes off every second for 10(?) seconds I really don't want to play any games you have a hand in. Aside from that you have no reason to be magicka unless you're healing. A lot of people prefer magicka, but it's just simply not as good and that's an unbiased fact. 1.4/1.5 had actual balance, even between stam/magicka. It wasn't around long enough to develop past stam = ganker. Steve kinda figured it out imo. I remember him from back then and he really stood out not just because he was stam, but because he made just as much of an impact as the other players around him. If you look back on the game's history no one figured out that negate was a good ultimate until like a month into the game (lol). It took at least 2-3 patches before Krim figured out nightblades could not only compete but be potentially the best class in the game when played right. Before that every nightblade used a bow or they rerolled. DK builds evolved a lot from launch to 1.5. A lot of changes to gear/stat distributions. Templars weren't even the preferred healers early on. Sorc resto heals were insanely stronger and they had better sustain. None of these things happened because of buffs/nerfs, but just because players figured things out. The ability was there, just player ingenuity hadn't gotten to the point where stam became widespread outside of gankers.
TLDR, redesigning your entire game when it was working well wasn't the answer.
This is a good summary.
One of the big problems with early days ESO is that most mechanics were hidden from the players. Thus we had no feedback to discover things except by fighting, hence the slow pace of discovery on NB and Templar builds. DKs and Sorcs had much more understandable mechanics which figured out during beta.
Can't remember if it was krim or Mojar Stalker that introduced sap tanks around 1.3/1.4. and araxleon didn't introduce the burst magicka NB until 1.5. well played Templars in 1.5 were nearly unlikable, and were hard counters to the DK (flashes plus blazing shield).
Stamina has been stronger than magicka on all classes since 1.6, with the exception of mSorc in 1.6 and mTemplar in 1.8. Magicka was stronger pre 1.6, but the gap had narrowed considerably and was largely a result of player ignorance. Good example of this given by Steve and a few others (Mrs Jones).
Regardless, ZoS decided to totally revamp a combat system that wasn't fundamentally broken. It just needed a bit more variety and continuing changes.
I'll pose the point this way: what if, instead of utilizing so much time remaking stat values and combat they had focused on balance and content additions within the system they already had? I bet they would be six months ahead in content than they are now, the balance would be better, and more players would play. God it took 18 months from launch to see imperial city!
Azoi was also runnin sap tank around the same time as krim and I, but I actually think gottbeard may have been one of the first to start running it. I don't think any of us knew of each other at the time though lol.
Ah ok.
Draco and Tiki both used to run it throughout 1.5. But I know they didn't invent it.0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ah, those days before almost anyone knew Mass Hysteria went through block.
Showing Bulbasir how that worked is probably one my best ESO memories. Such incredulity!Edited by Satiar on October 15, 2016 5:19PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
dantator✭✭✭heystreethawk wrote: »I just found this cryptic scroll on the ground and it reads "1.6 had the nirnhoned armor trait" so idk
I second that! Nirn, imo, was the worse!+Divine Force+
+Divines+0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nevermind...
Edited by Joy_Division on October 15, 2016 6:33PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭heystreethawk wrote: »I just found this cryptic scroll on the ground and it reads "1.6 had the nirnhoned armor trait" so idk
I second that! Nirn, imo, was the worse!
There's way worse than most players being at spell resist cap nowadays. My Magplar has 42000 spell resist buffed. He didn't even need to use Nirnhoned.PC EU0 -
Asgari✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ESO is nothing but whose proc sets hit at once first now .. its probably the worst pvp experience i have ever had playing ESO. Id take the Lighting/bot patch over this mess of pvp at this point.Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
Princess Asgari | Sorc
Asgari | NB
-Asgari | Stamplar
Ariana Kishi | DK | True Liberator of Haderus
Banner Down!
No Mercy
Youtube: Asgari12 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I believe @SirAndy is saying that just because some Magicka builds are situationally competitive now, it does not mean Magicka and Stamina build parity presently exists.
The same was true in 1.5. Just because there were some situationally viable Stamina builds in 1.5, that did not mean Stamina was close to being balanced with Magicka overall.
To me, 1.6 through 2.2 was the most balanced and least cheesy ESO PVP has been. I think imbalance and lack of build diversity we have in 2.6 is very similar to what we had in 1.5 when swords, boards and dresses were everywhere.
Most of what we see in this thread is subjective. There is no single way to design a great game. What ESO PVP needs more than anything is a vision backed by the resources to see it through. What we have now is life support with no leadership and the barest resources possible. The game is designed around PVE instances and minimal effort is made to adapt those changes to PVP. It takes weeks or months to fix game-breaking bugs and balance issues.
In short, ESO PVP sucks because ZOS is barely trying.Edited by zyk on October 16, 2016 12:04PM5 -
Chuga_Rei✭✭✭✭✭Princess_Asgari wrote: »ESO is nothing but whose proc sets hit at once first now .. its probably the worst pvp experience i have ever had playing ESO. Id take the Lighting/bot patch over this mess of pvp at this point.
some of the most fun I have had is catching up with the guys grinding dungeons and being silly in ts/chat
sad i dont even want to go near cyrodiil anymore =/
MAIN: Subtomik |DC| Templar| Grand Overlord| Magicka since release(GET RID OF RD and give me back blinding flashes!)
Scrubtomik|EP |Templar|Rerolled to help outnumbered EP
Urban Youth|DC | Nightblade|AVA RANK 15| Stam
Not A Racist |EP|Nightblade| Magicka| Maelstrom farmer
Triggered Liberal|DC| New maelstrom farmer lol
Pls Send Nudes |AD| DK
GM of Full Metal Carebears
No Mercy
AutoBots
K-hole
Gone but not forgotten, Braidas, Marku, and a dozen other heroes4 -
donJay✭✭✭This thread sounds a lot like my parents talking about how good the old days were. It's just an illusion folks. The present is a build up of improvements from the past. TrollololANIMOSITY BEST GUILD NA + EU
Former Los Pepes
Former Nemesìs
Former Dynamic
Former Nexus
EP | Magplar l Argonian l don-Jay
DC | Magden | High Elf | don-Bae
Magden Solo PvP Vid2 -
Draxys✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'd take 1.anything over the current game. Bugs and imbalances included.2013
rip decibel1 -
Kaghei✭✭✭small scale pvp is fun right now, but i would be lying if i said i didnt miss zerg diving on MDK and perma bats.
id play a 1.5 server in a heart beat thoughEdited by Kaghei on October 16, 2016 7:57PMAlacrity
World's Fastest AA
World's First claimer of Bleakers
First Grand Overlord Slayer2 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭I, for one, desire 1.5 noob campaign to come back, the best thing ZOS ever designed, if accidentally.
But not as much as to actually pay any money for it. That is out of question. ZOS has to fold.0 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I miss my 1.5 heavy armor mag sorc that could get decent heals from rapid regen and didn't even need to use shields. And I miss how I was able to be innovative by putting 3 stam regen glyphs on that build, allowing it to block tank.
And for all the potatos claiming stam was just as horribly under powered then as mag is today, there are only two possibilities: you either didn't play the game back then or you had not learned how to play a proper stam build that incorporated sustain instead of being a glass cannon gank build.
Those of us on NA often refer to Steve's stam NB build, cuz he actually made full use of the tools given to him to survive and rekt face as stam when we ran small man. He was able to duel Sypher to a draw on that build, so it was hardly a matter of "some stam builds could just manage to function on the very edge of viability."
How? Steve went S&B/2 hander, unlike most of the stam players that insisted on having a bow bar and wanted to try 2 shotting with snipe. Specifically, he used shielded assault for the dmg shield and heavy attack weaves to restore stam. If it sounds pretty basic, yeah it wasn't revolutionary or anything, it's just that stam players at the time never played like that - and then went to the forums to QQ that their bow/2 hand gankblade with everything into dmg couldn't sustain.
Was there complete balance? Of course not, but it was closer to anything that this game has seen since. Once stam builds got vigor in 1.6 things started to spiral out of control.9 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Outside of a comprehensive objective analysis, I think the best indicator of Magicka/Stamina balance is what power gamers actually played.
By the end of 1.5, this was decisively in favor of Magicka, even if there were stamina characteristics to the builds. Today, it is decisively in favor of Stamina builds.
IMO, 1.6-2.2 had the best balance of Magicka and Stamina builds from solo players, to small groups, to raids.4 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread sounds a lot like my parents talking about how good the old days were. It's just an illusion folks. The present is a build up of improvements from the past. Trollolol
When I read these threads, that's sorta how I feel, too. The game is more than 2 years old. People move on. And they remember the "good old days." Now they're just stressed out.0 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
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Except unlike the nostalgia effect, we have physical evidence from the hoards and hoards of videos that chronicle the games steady decline over the past 2 years.This thread sounds a lot like my parents talking about how good the old days were. It's just an illusion folks. The present is a build up of improvements from the past. Trollolol
When I read these threads, that's sorta how I feel, too. The game is more than 2 years old. People move on. And they remember the "good old days." Now they're just stressed out.6 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HoloYoitsu wrote: »
Except unlike the nostalgia effect, we have physical evidence from the hoards and hoards of videos that chronicle the games steady decline over the past 2 years.This thread sounds a lot like my parents talking about how good the old days were. It's just an illusion folks. The present is a build up of improvements from the past. Trollolol
When I read these threads, that's sorta how I feel, too. The game is more than 2 years old. People move on. And they remember the "good old days." Now they're just stressed out.
Evidence of what? The only evidence that you could realistically prove is the game's stability with lag and latency. Other than that, one man's meta is another man's bane. Decline is in the eye of the beholder.1 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I see you joined after this game went B2P (unless you're an alt). If you're just going to claim everything that people who have played since PC launch are saying about balance is meaningless subjectivity, then there really isn't any point to discussion with you.HoloYoitsu wrote: »
Except unlike the nostalgia effect, we have physical evidence from the hoards and hoards of videos that chronicle the games steady decline over the past 2 years.This thread sounds a lot like my parents talking about how good the old days were. It's just an illusion folks. The present is a build up of improvements from the past. Trollolol
When I read these threads, that's sorta how I feel, too. The game is more than 2 years old. People move on. And they remember the "good old days." Now they're just stressed out.
Evidence of what? The only evidence that you could realistically prove is the game's stability with lag and latency. Other than that, one man's meta is another man's bane. Decline is in the eye of the beholder.4 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HoloYoitsu wrote: »
I see you joined after this game went B2P (unless you're an alt). If you're just going to claim everything that people who have played since PC launch are saying about balance is meaningless subjectivity, then there really isn't any point to discussion with you.HoloYoitsu wrote: »
Except unlike the nostalgia effect, we have physical evidence from the hoards and hoards of videos that chronicle the games steady decline over the past 2 years.This thread sounds a lot like my parents talking about how good the old days were. It's just an illusion folks. The present is a build up of improvements from the past. Trollolol
When I read these threads, that's sorta how I feel, too. The game is more than 2 years old. People move on. And they remember the "good old days." Now they're just stressed out.
Evidence of what? The only evidence that you could realistically prove is the game's stability with lag and latency. Other than that, one man's meta is another man's bane. Decline is in the eye of the beholder.
Been playing since the beginning, mate. But nice try to discredit me. People have different opinions about what is fun and not. That's the big point. And you are welcome to yours. But I will say this....some of the "I've played since the beginning" need to move on. They keep coming back for something they can't or won't find here anymore. I'm still having fun day in and day out. If you're not, then what a waste of your time. And this isn't directed at you specifically.
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