A fair PVP Justice System concept

rotiferuk · October 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Getting a separate instance of Cyrodill is an entirely different discussion, so I'll skip that for now We can always take that up another time.. The thing is that the PvP players are a bit pressed to say the least.. They only have 1 zone, which suffers from a lot of problems.. It should not be hard to understand why they want to branch out a bit.. And I can honestly not see why that would harm the rest of us, if the system is made properly.. Imo, I'd welcome the PvP justice system, as long as it's 100% voluntary.. I'm not a fan of forcing us in by using the bounties to trigger it, but if we could get a toggle, then I think it could be good.. Of course it needs to be as free of exploits, and closed to grief, as possible.. But I really think it can be done

I spend 98% of my game time in Cyrodil and only leave to craft and buy mats. So I guess I am a PvP player. I don't want to PvP in a PvE area. I don't want to encounter PvP in PvE areas.

Dev · October 2016

Oh look, yet another thread where PVP'ers feel a need to attack PVE'ers...

I can understand that players will have their 'preferred' type of activity, but how many whining 'Let's PVP the PVE player' threads do we need?

They just gave PVP players dueling, which a lot are abusing and causing the rest of the players to suffer through. Cant even walk in the alliance's capital without endless fighting... downright ridicules. Everyone else has to deal with lag because a few people couldn't control their e-peen.

Seriously, what does it say about a person who can only get enjoyment from hurting others for no reason!
Also dont bother with any of that 'but its justice' crap, when we ALL know its about e-peen.

If all those PVP'ers really want PVP in the PVE area, well then lets add some PVE into their lives by being able to pickpocket and take their precious gold gear!

Hey, if people are so uptight about me stealing from NPCs, i have no issue stealing from them (legitimately in game, of course).

If as a PVE thief, my 'life' is subjected to the PVP mindset, then some of those lovely shinies on the PVP players should be in my pockets! Ya know, a little bit of their gold, their AP and well whatever else they have thats worth it...

Tandor · October 2016

AndyTGD wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

AndyTGD wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Just a couple of points to clarify the p[practicalities...

1. I'm a naughty boy, I want to steal a high value thing and trigger PvP justice, 'cos I know I can outrun the clumsy cops. Where do I find these high value items? Are they random spawns? Or can we learn their locations?

2. I'm a good boy, I want to punish thieves. Takes a thief to catch a thief and all that, so before I put on my swanky "Enforcer" tabard, I'll locate an item first, then hide and quietly put on my tabard...

3. Is there a downside to being an Enforcer? It seems like a gankfest, where the Enforcer stands to gain loot/bounties, but at no risk to themselves if they lose a fight/let a thief escape.

4. Being an Enforcer seems a bit boring, just hanging around waiting for a theft, then hiding outside a thieves den... maybe liven it up by allowing assassins to gank enforcers! Using the Blade of Woe

As usual the devil is in the detail.

1. I imagine random locations, rather than set spawn areas. Partly to make it unexpected and partly to prevent gankers sitting on spawn points. Kinda like how the system currently works for any looted item.
2. See point 1.
3. If you like, I'm sure one could think of a negative result for the enforcer. Perhaps if they lose a battle with a thief they get a temporary debuff or something. Maybe they have to spend ten minutes dressed as a fat, balding Breton called 'Dave the Flatulent'. Who knows? Plenty of ideas.
4. Eh, no more boring than the fishing system ZOS actually put in place (lol). I think the hidden assumption is that nobody would want to thieve or assassinate in PvP, leading to boredomville. But again, if it is made fair and with interesting rewards, the temptation to use the system is pretty likely, especially by those who actually want to engage in a spot of controlled cat-and-mouse. To compensate for slower periods, this could all be technically rolled in with the existing enforcer-esque elements in-game, such as Fighter's Guild bounties. Giving enforcers plenty to do even when they're not hunting other players.

Random locations? So if I want to be really bad I have to get lucky and find it by accident? Which might happen how often?

You can't really plan an evening of badness if you are depending on ZoS RNG... and it's not much of an incentive to be an enforcer, because chances are nobody is going to be thieving

As for penalties for enforcers... if they lose a fight they have to lose something they have - just as thieves would. If they let a thief escape then there has to be a financial penalty - their risk must be just as great as a criminal's.

1) Eh, I'd say the chances would be pretty reasonable. As I say, the entire point of it isn't to create a constant unending PVP session with hundreds of people running around, but more limited in scope. Its also highly dependant on how many people actually want to utilise the system; fewer people using it would require a better chance of finding an item. etc. etc. etc. But yes, I'd say the likelihood of finding one should be set fairly high. We're not talking about Psijic Ambrosia fragments here.

2) Why? If the enforcer bungles it then he loses the reward that he could have obtained had he stopped the thief, right? Think of it as more like a game of capture the flag, with one side trying to cap and the other attempting to intercept the flag for themselves. The penalty is going away with nothing. Thief messes up, he goes home with nothing. Enforcer messes up, he goes away with nothing. Fairness.

And the place for that is Cyrodiil!

Tandor · October 2016

For the record, as it keeps getting mentioned in derogatory terms by the OP, I love fishing. It's an entertaining and ultimately rewarding PVE activity. It isn't designed to be entertaining to those who prefer slaughtering each other, but it is designed to appeal to those whose primary interest lies in PvE activities in PvE areas, and the fact that the OP keeps rubbishing it in support of his case for more PvP in PvE areas tells its own story and illustrates all too well why his approach is out of touch with those for whom PvE activities and areas are primarily designed.

Tandor · October 2016

HibiscusJ wrote: »

Unfortunately there will never be any form of open world pvp in this game. Most of the community seems to have an anxiety attack every time they see a duel. Doesn't make much sense to me, I love the cat a mouse chase of open world pvp. All I know is that I will be investing in Xanax stock if they ever implement op's idea.

Actually, there already is. Dueling. It might be consensual, and you might prefer FFA, but it still is a form of open world PvP.

I_killed_Vivec · October 2016

AndyTGD wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

AndyTGD wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Just a couple of points to clarify the p[practicalities...

1. I'm a naughty boy, I want to steal a high value thing and trigger PvP justice, 'cos I know I can outrun the clumsy cops. Where do I find these high value items? Are they random spawns? Or can we learn their locations?

2. I'm a good boy, I want to punish thieves. Takes a thief to catch a thief and all that, so before I put on my swanky "Enforcer" tabard, I'll locate an item first, then hide and quietly put on my tabard...

3. Is there a downside to being an Enforcer? It seems like a gankfest, where the Enforcer stands to gain loot/bounties, but at no risk to themselves if they lose a fight/let a thief escape.

4. Being an Enforcer seems a bit boring, just hanging around waiting for a theft, then hiding outside a thieves den... maybe liven it up by allowing assassins to gank enforcers! Using the Blade of Woe

As usual the devil is in the detail.

1. I imagine random locations, rather than set spawn areas. Partly to make it unexpected and partly to prevent gankers sitting on spawn points. Kinda like how the system currently works for any looted item.
2. See point 1.
3. If you like, I'm sure one could think of a negative result for the enforcer. Perhaps if they lose a battle with a thief they get a temporary debuff or something. Maybe they have to spend ten minutes dressed as a fat, balding Breton called 'Dave the Flatulent'. Who knows? Plenty of ideas.
4. Eh, no more boring than the fishing system ZOS actually put in place (lol). I think the hidden assumption is that nobody would want to thieve or assassinate in PvP, leading to boredomville. But again, if it is made fair and with interesting rewards, the temptation to use the system is pretty likely, especially by those who actually want to engage in a spot of controlled cat-and-mouse. To compensate for slower periods, this could all be technically rolled in with the existing enforcer-esque elements in-game, such as Fighter's Guild bounties. Giving enforcers plenty to do even when they're not hunting other players.

Random locations? So if I want to be really bad I have to get lucky and find it by accident? Which might happen how often?

You can't really plan an evening of badness if you are depending on ZoS RNG... and it's not much of an incentive to be an enforcer, because chances are nobody is going to be thieving

As for penalties for enforcers... if they lose a fight they have to lose something they have - just as thieves would. If they let a thief escape then there has to be a financial penalty - their risk must be just as great as a criminal's.

If the enforcer bungles it then he loses the reward that he could have obtained had he stopped the thief, right? Think of it as more like a game of capture the flag, with one side trying to cap and the other attempting to intercept the flag for themselves. The penalty is going away with nothing. Thief messes up, he goes home with nothing. Enforcer messes up, he goes away with nothing. Fairness.

If an enforcer gets the stolen goods and a bounty then the thief/assassin should get something from the enforcer if they kill them. They keep the goods if they get away, and a bonus if they kill. The enforcer has to pay a penalty for failure.

It's something that was bitterly complained about with Tel Var stones in IC - someone farms the stones, killing mobs, and runs the risk of being jumped on by a ganker. A ganker who doesn't have any risk because they don't have anything to lose. It's an imbalance that is partly responsible for IC not being as popular as it might have been.

What you describe is a no-risk scenario for the enforcer. They never get anything taken from them.

Besides, this doesn't sound much like PvP justice anymore. If you want capture the flag then isn't that what Cyrodiil is for? Why don't you ask ZoS to implement capture the flag in Cyrodiil, and leave PvE zones alone?

Then everyone is happy

Uriel_Nocturne · October 2016

I don't know why people insist on forcing PvP aspects into the PvE side of the game.

Because that's all these "true justice system" threads are asking for when you take away all the fluff.

If I want PvP, I'll go to Cyrodiil.

If I want to Thieve/Assassinate in peace, I stay in the entire rest of the game.

It's bad enough I'll have to deal with unending duel requests here in seven days, can we please leave the PvP in Cyrodiil?

Please?

Whatzituyah · October 2016

At this point why don't ZOS update their servers and have a RP server and a PVP sub server for both servers? That way we do have a choice.

Daemons_Bane · October 2016

Whatzituyah wrote: »

At this point why don't ZOS update their servers and have a RP server and a PVP sub server for both servers? That way we do have a choice.

Because we do not have enough players to make that a viable solution

Tandor · October 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

At this point why don't ZOS update their servers and have a RP server and a PVP sub server for both servers? That way we do have a choice.

Because we do not have enough players to make that a viable solution

There are more than enough players for a main server, many of whom would choose to play on a RP server especially if it was firmly moderated in terms of naming policy etc, but whenever such options are provided it's the PvP server that is quickly non-viable. People like the sound of open PvP until faced with it, then they want trouble-free questing and head back to the main server. The small minority of players who genuinely want FFA PvP is too small to be viable. That's certainly the experience in other MMOs I've played.

In any event, the reason it can't and won't happen here is because ZOS have nailed their colours to the megaserver mast.

Daemons_Bane · October 2016

I honestly don't think that we have enough players to break them into 3 servers.. Not without creating ghost towns

alexkdd99 · October 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Stop trying to stop people from farming their daily easy gold. It upsets them.

As opposed to farming easy targets ?

I would agree with you but even when a proposal is put forward where people would knowingly accept pvp and it would in no way affect players who didnt want to pvp, in come all the replies about ganking and exploits.

This is simply a case of people who dont like pvp dont want it in their areas. There is no reason other then We dont like pvp. So they make up ones. Oh gankers, oh pvp forced on me! Even when people come uo ways to avoid these.

These people should just come out and say I dont want pvp in my area, nothing you can say will change that. Atleast then we know where they stand. But they would rather just troll.

Because after a horse has been beaten so many times people get tired of typing another well thought out response for the 100th time. Kind of like with auction house threads, which surprisingly haven't seen one in a week or two.

Many people could come up with legitimate pros and cons, but honestly there is no point. If people want to learn all the pros and cons all you have to do is search for the threads because I am sure there is plenty of them.

Artis · October 2016

AndyTGD wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

No.
If I want pvp, I go to Cyrodiil. I don't want to be railroaded into PvP - The Thieves Guild has daily quests, not even the scouting quests in Cyro force you into PvP if you accept one.

Did you even read the proposal? No one is being railroaded into PvP, it is being proposed as an additional, entirely voluntary, layer to the existing system. Nice benefits of course, but only if you want to do it. Just like no-one is being railroaded into PVP in cyrodiil despite there being big pluses to doing so, such as gaining Emperor status and all the goodies which go with that.

No such thing as voluntary layer if it has rewards or (for some players) even achievements. There's already enough pvp achievement hunters are forced to do (if they prefer pve), and at least now it's in Cyro so it's not breaking immersion. I imagine players running around zones in great numbers fighting each other everywhere will change the atmosphere of the game too much. I might be wrong.

Whatzituyah · October 2016

@Tandor I don't know I just like the Random Chance of being ganked the only exception is when I talk to an NPC or a scripted cutscene starts. The NPC problem happens in Cyrodiil they put PVE in that PVP.

AmberLaTerra · October 2016

alexkdd99 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Stop trying to stop people from farming their daily easy gold. It upsets them.

As opposed to farming easy targets ?

I would agree with you but even when a proposal is put forward where people would knowingly accept pvp and it would in no way affect players who didnt want to pvp, in come all the replies about ganking and exploits.

This is simply a case of people who dont like pvp dont want it in their areas. There is no reason other then We dont like pvp. So they make up ones. Oh gankers, oh pvp forced on me! Even when people come uo ways to avoid these.

These people should just come out and say I dont want pvp in my area, nothing you can say will change that. Atleast then we know where they stand. But they would rather just troll.

Because after a horse has been beaten so many times people get tired of typing another well thought out response for the 100th time. Kind of like with auction house threads, which surprisingly haven't seen one in a week or two.

Many people could come up with legitimate pros and cons, but honestly there is no point. If people want to learn all the pros and cons all you have to do is search for the threads because I am sure there is plenty of them.

Not to mention when we put out a well thought out post that shows the many cons and proves many points about the negative effects PVP being put into a PVE activity would end up having we get accused of not reading the idea (which obviously to have pointed out the flaws we had to have read it.), Being to stupid to understand the idea. Being "carebears" (though any who are so afraid of real PVP they want to be able to pound on noob PVE players who would be the primary targets of justice PVP are the real carebears), or just out and out get ignored by the supporters because they do not want to deal with those annoying little things called logical facts.

It has been shown time and again in this threads that the supporters of these ideas just want to hide in their little bubble of belief that everyone loves PVP and wants it force upon them in some way with the only versions that have opt outs being conditional in that there is lesser reward for opting out. A condition that forces PVP if one wants to have a reward worth having.

Dubhliam · October 2016

What everything boils down to is opinions.

If you present a fair, voluntary, or even a full opt-out system, there will always be people with arguments like:
"But if you make it opt out, nobody will play PvP, it is a waste of resources. The vast majority of players are PvE, and only a handful of e-peens are in Cyro"

Well I remember clearly when there was talk about open world dueling.
The same argument was thrown around. Nobody will do it. It's a waste of "resources".

Now those same people cry that their immersion is ruined, or even better... that they have to deal with those pesky duel requests.
Hint... you can turn the duel requests off ***.

Just because you will not participate in something does not mean that content is wasted.
It's just not designed for you.
You get PvE content every 3 months but Akatosh forbid we get some PvP content or you might start feeling neglected.

STEVIL · October 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

You get PvE content every 3 months but Akatosh forbid we get some PvP content or you might start feeling neglected.

My comments on dueling were great glad they got it... with its totally voluntary opt-out and even opto-in second chance.
My comments for pvp justice once we saw pvp dueling and how it works was that starting from that point made sense - seeing what ZOs feels comfortable adding as necessary safeties for PVP in PVE areas... setting for opt-out, decline every time even if opt-in, limited density, no takeover of existing pve content, no "play-in from pve" etc - as either a voluntary planned guild thing or as a basis for a system build

the need to characterize the disagreements as somehow illegit is just too easy a way to avoid the truths.

Sometimes ideas are rejected because of the ideas, not because of the lack of sense on the part of the rejecting party.

White wabbit · October 2016

Please Zos just implement it with a op-out option just so we can get some peace and quiet round here

Whatzituyah · October 2016

@White wabbit But its already quiet! Why isn't Elmer Fudd looking for you?

But yeah I don't know if ile agree because if they just do it with opt out nobody would want to do it.