Joy_Division wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Would this work for new sets incoming.

5tbs, 5 spc with jewlery and sharpened swords and Skoria. So procs on jabs and you can have almost 100% uptime, good max magika, good recovery. What's not to like.

TBS Mother's Sorrow Skoria/Grothdarr and VMA Staff. Your DPS is going to be comparable with stam builds..

Minor Slayer?! I don't see it. You kinda have to have it. Magicka DPS is already comparable to stam builds. Mage sorcerers out there pulling almost 50k.

the best stamina builds are pulling 80k dps

@Drdeath20 Link me a parse of someone doing 80k DPS on a single target. I won't believe it till I see it, with a full video and the parse at the end. Highest I've ever seen was 58k on a stamina DK.
I think you just wanted to come up with an insanely number to try to show that magicka builds are outclassed by stamina. It is not the case. Ask any of the people who run in competitive trial groups. Magicka have a slightly less DPS, but more survivability. Stamina has slightly more DPS, but its A LOT harder to stay alive. I play both as mains. Personal experience? Stamina is harder in every way, the only exception being magicka sorcerer. Stamina rotations with maelstrom weapons are very hard to master compared to NB or Templar.

Vicious Death doesn't work in PvE but DR X already said that... Which kinda makes me think even more that you just made the 80k up But hey, just show me a parse!

I really wish you "competitive trial group" members would demonstrate that magicka is right up there with stam DPS and exceeding them in surviability when in comes to PvP.

I keep hearing that over and over it is "A LOT" harder to stay alive and play stam in trials but this to me is as believable as an 80K DPS parse is to you. Stam builds have zero survivability issues in PvP - in fact they are too survivable - and the stam players I PvE raid with do not die disproportionately more often than magicka.

Why don't you run a mDK with that world class DPS and surviability in the open world PvP and show ignorant people such as myself just how much power magicka has in this meta.

@Joy_Division
I don't know why I'm going to bother even replying because no matter what I say you won't agree with me. Plus its completely off topic. But screw it, whatever
Yeah I think that @Alcast and @Nifty2g, among others, will confirm the fact that its much less hassle to survive on magicka builds than it is on stamina builds. Cause you know shields are there to be used. By the way do you even play any stamina toons? Your point of view seems pretty biased to me.
PvP is not the same as PvE though. There's no place to run Shuffle and there's no time to do a few roll dodges. Mobs don't gap close in PvE and suddenly you see that range is a HUGE advantage (its as simple as getting the bigger picture of the fight for example, simply because you're further away from the action).
No disproportionality? Yeah cause people who do raids usually are good enough with their class to not die all the time? I don't know about you but it seems pretty logical to me. You put in time before you go into a trial, you don't just make a character get all the skills you need and go for a lil vet hard mode, do you? You go learn your rotation, you get familiar with the class, the strong and weak points, etc.
I really don't mean to come off as a *** and I'm sorry if I do, but I just think that PvP balance is very far from PvE balance. In PvE things aren't too bad for magicka at all. They are pulling decent numbers, a bit behind stamina sure, but they have their roles. Just look at MoL, everyone who's done it says that the majority of their group was magicka based DPS. There must be a reason for that don't you think?

I'll say it again, PvP is not PvE. You won't see a stamina DPS wearing Black Rose or Malubeth in a raid. Or a magicka Templar with a SnB perma-blocking. But you already knew that. So why do you answer my comment which was purely about PvE with PvP arguments? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

PS: You can't deny that 80k DPS is a bit over the top. What kind of group buffs do you have to have to do that?

@IzakiBrotheSs -

Why do you think I wouldn't agree with you? Because I have a strong interpretation in this matter? Does that by default make me disinterested in discussion or closed off to learning new perspectives?

I don't need @Nifty2g or @Alcast to educate me on what shields can do. It may come to a surprise, but I am familiar with the basic mechanics and abilities in the game as well as their application. I don't use harness magicka or a shield in any trial I play as a magicka build (I do them all except MOL). And even though you think I am biased, I have played and do play a stamina character: in fact I played a stamina sorcerer back at launch before it was the cool thing to do.

How am I supposed to reconcile you saying that stam is "A LOT harder to stay alive" yet also tell me that stam players don't die more than magicka players because they are skilled and know their characters? To me, I interpret that as it's not "A LOT" harder since staying alive is less about mechanics and more about knowing how to play. You stress range, but half of magicka DPS also want to be in melee and most trial bosses are just melee stacks. You are just parroting general game-theory phrases that are not necessarily applicable to ESO, let alone this patch.

As for magicka dominated MOL, why don't you actually tell me instead of repeating platitudes? From what I understand, a big reason is that there is a specific burst damage mechanic that pretty much requires harness magicka to survive. If that's the case, people are running those builds because of a stupid game-mechanic overly restricts options as opposed to choice. But that's MOL. Stam builds DPS and survive just fine in SO and in AA by creative stacking on the final boss. The Warrior is a pain to DPS because it moves and the Starfall somewhat inconvenient in that blocking and slotting a HoT maybe necessary, but as you say, you learn the class you'll survive.

I know PvP balance isn't the same as PvE balance. But ESO does not distinguish between the two aside from the Battelspirit mechanic. Thus if PvP is out of whack because stam is out of control, I am going to object to arguments that say the balance in ESO is fine because in some specific PVE trial fights things aren't too bad for magicka. I am guessing you wouldn't be too happy if PvP balance was fine but your end-game trials were out of whack, would you? So the answer to your question is that ESO is not pure PvE (or PvP); arguments made regarding game balance cannot be restricted to one because it affects the other.

Yes I know 80K DPS is ridiculous. As ridiculous to me that a high weapon build with Shuffle + Rally + Vigor + dodge roll is "A LOT" harder to stay alive. Maybe that doesn't keep stam alive in MOL, but the damage avoidance and suriviability of the combination is over-performing in the other areas of ESO, which are just as valid parts of the game as end game trials

See, told you we won't agree on stuff

Anyway, you think stamina is OP, fine, its your opinion. I don't think the two are perfectly balanced, never said that, I said that magicka is performing pretty well in PvE. Yeah sure buff magicka in PvP. The nerf to vMA dual wield should bring the stam DPS down a bit.

I know you don't need anyone to teach you the basic abilities and mechanics of the game, you have probably been playing longer than me. I never said that. Don't know why you took it that way, but I didn't mean it at all. I also don't use shields in non HM trials.

Yeah, there is no "PvE vs PvP" divide. Yes they are the same game. Yeah PvP is just as valid as end-game trials.That doesn't mean that everything that applies to PvE, applies to PvP as well. Just as I can't say something is fine only cause its fine in PvE, you can't say that something is OP just because its OP in PvP. I play both just like you, although lately I've been dedicating a lot of time towards trials, because I have more friends who prefer those over PvP. I've also had my stamina sorcerer before it was the cool thing to do. I also agree that PvP isn't balanced. But you still do bring PvP into a comment where I was only talking of the stamina and magicka performance in trials. You said it yourself, what makes stamina builds survivable in PvP doesn't apply to PvE, so why are we still having this argument?

You don't slot the same abilities, you don't use the same builds, you don't have the same CP allocation in PvP and PvE. Whereas I entirely agree that the Shuffle + Rally + Vigor + dodge roll thing is terrible, you just can't state that because stamina's survivability is higher in PvP that it also applies to PvE. You don't use Shuffle as a DPS, you don't have the slots for it, you don't use rally because its in the 2H skill line and you'd have to sacrifice dual wield or bow to use it. That leaves Vigor and Dodge Roll. Obviously block too. I still think that having a 15-20k shield is less risky than having to stop DPSing entirely, roll dodge and apply Vigor. So yeah without Rally and Shuffle it is A LOT harder to survive than to pop a shield. In PvP you spec to be hard to kill and to be able to kill all at once. In PvE you spec to kill and rely on tank and healer to mitigate as much damage as possible for you with your lousy 18k health. You can't just say that stam is OP in all situations because they have more survivability than they should (according to you) in PvP. Yeah in PvP stamina has better stats all across the board and that's not normal.

About mechanics? Err... Meteors in MoL that magicka must kite away from the group? The knock bar that Rakhat does that 1-shots you if you're too close before moving to the next pad? Flame boss in HRC with huge Impulse AoE that one shots you if you don't block it, and you might not always have the stamina to do so because there's spinny fire mages that you have to sprint to in order to interrupt them while dodging all their attacks? The Warrior's barely visible ground AoEs below 35%? The Air Atronach that spins below 35%? The Mage's reflections with a big ground AoE that 2 shots you beneath them? Yes, you'll say that if you know the mechanics and if the tank is doing his job it isn't an issue. Yes you'll also say that mages also have to go through those mechanics. But its much more difficult to do it on a stamina build. Why? Cause you have to almost be glued to your target to DPS (5 meter range ya know). You can't say that the basic rule that Range is more survivable than Melee and thus hits less hard isn't applicable to ESO, because that's just denying facts. Dude, even Molag Kena is somewhat a pain to melee with her electric walls and Lord Warden's spheres that drain your stamina while dealing kinda solid damage. Lord Warden also jumps all around the place meaning you have to run up to him to DPS. As a mage you laugh at those mechanics, cause shields and range. And those are 4-man dungeons, really easy and everything, but they are still harder on a stamina build and you just can't deny that. Even vMA is harder on a stamina build. Poison plant unluckily spawning right under you and its GG unless you use Barrier (a shield, right?). You'd know it, you have a guide on clearing vMA. Yes people who know their class won't die and make it seem easy. Doesn't mean it isn't hard or "A LOT" harder on stamina than it is on magicka. You might say that some mechanics are just bad design, but its the design and you have to suck it up and find a way around those stupid mechanics.

Now the melee magicka builds. Usually you'd have around 2, maybe 3, melee mages. A DK and Templars. No point in having 2 mage DKs right? 1 Engulfing buff is enough for the whole group. Templars shine in execute phases. And they can execute at full range. Night blades and Sorcerers don't have to be up close as that wouldn't change anything in their rotation.

Now let's stop this whole discussion about balance and whatnot because its completely off topic. We were talking about possibilities for a BiS set-up for magicka templars in One Tamriel.

Akimbro wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Would this work for new sets incoming.

5tbs, 5 spc with jewlery and sharpened swords and Skoria. So procs on jabs and you can have almost 100% uptime, good max magika, good recovery. What's not to like.

TBS Mother's Sorrow Skoria/Grothdarr and VMA Staff. Your DPS is going to be comparable with stam builds..

Minor Slayer?! I don't see it. You kinda have to have it. Magicka DPS is already comparable to stam builds. Mage sorcerers out there pulling almost 50k.

the best stamina builds are pulling 80k dps

show me proove. And please no 10second tomato fight

Where does one go about fighting tomatoes?

The kitchen in Sanctum before Ozara..