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Effective Spell Power of a Mage Sorcerer based on 3 item sets.
Izaki
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
✭✭
Greetings everyone,
I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 56 Elfborn, 17 Spell Erosion, 1 Staff Expert and 13 Thaumaturge. I'm using a Sharpened Staff. The penetration is 17793 in total at all times (Minor and Major Breach, Light Armor Passive, Spell Erosion and Sharpened Weapon), which means the target only has 407 spell resistance (I'm therefore penetrating 97.76% of the target's resistances).
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage). Let's say we get Major Force every 30 seconds.
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it, just for the sake of seeing the maximum potential of each build.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/LOJ vs MS vs TBS.001_zpsqujjfmzp.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
EDIT: I edited some parts of the post based on feedback. So because we get a Horn every 30 seconds we can see that we benefit from Major Force 1/3rd of the time. Meaning that the average Effective Spell Power for TBS is around 11944.1 and for Julianos it is 11934.5. Mother's Sorrow is way behind these two. TBS is king, Julianos a very close second (but you also lose an important health bonus).
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
Edited by Izaki on October 1, 2016 11:53PM I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 56 Elfborn, 17 Spell Erosion, 1 Staff Expert and 13 Thaumaturge. I'm using a Sharpened Staff. The penetration is 17793 in total at all times (Minor and Major Breach, Light Armor Passive, Spell Erosion and Sharpened Weapon), which means the target only has 407 spell resistance (I'm therefore penetrating 97.76% of the target's resistances).
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage). Let's say we get Major Force every 30 seconds.
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it, just for the sake of seeing the maximum potential of each build.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/LOJ vs MS vs TBS.001_zpsqujjfmzp.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
EDIT: I edited some parts of the post based on feedback. So because we get a Horn every 30 seconds we can see that we benefit from Major Force 1/3rd of the time. Meaning that the average Effective Spell Power for TBS is around 11944.1 and for Julianos it is 11934.5. Mother's Sorrow is way behind these two. TBS is king, Julianos a very close second (but you also lose an important health bonus).
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade
1
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hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Greetings everyone,
I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
I considered that 100% of the target's armor was mitigated, which is not uncommon in a trial setting. Therefore I decided to use a Precise Staff (7% Critical Chance) for the calculations. My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 76 Elfborn, 1 Staff Expert and 10 Thaumaturge. This may not be the perfect set-up, but I decided to go for it anyway.
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/Julianos vs TBS vs MS.001_zpswbgkjd8x.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
TBS>Mother's Sorrow as well as Julianos TBS is BiS for every class regardless whether youre stam or magicka.
EDIT: 99% of the time.Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on September 28, 2016 7:02PM2 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Greetings everyone,
I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
I considered that 100% of the target's armor was mitigated, which is not uncommon in a trial setting. Therefore I decided to use a Precise Staff (7% Critical Chance) for the calculations. My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 76 Elfborn, 1 Staff Expert and 10 Thaumaturge. This may not be the perfect set-up, but I decided to go for it anyway.
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/Julianos vs TBS vs MS.001_zpswbgkjd8x.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
TBS>Mother's Sorrow as well as Julianos TBS is BiS for every class regardless whether youre stam or magicka.
So the effective spell power means nothing at all?@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Greetings everyone,
I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
I considered that 100% of the target's armor was mitigated, which is not uncommon in a trial setting. Therefore I decided to use a Precise Staff (7% Critical Chance) for the calculations. My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 76 Elfborn, 1 Staff Expert and 10 Thaumaturge. This may not be the perfect set-up, but I decided to go for it anyway.
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/Julianos vs TBS vs MS.001_zpswbgkjd8x.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
The reason you may be getting erroneous results is because your setup has a few fundamental flaws.
1. You assume full target penetration with a precise weapon. That is not currently possible. With Alkosh up and your gear set, the boss will still have around 3% mitigation. This is not huge but will affect your results.
2. You have 76 points in Elfborn and 10 in Thaumaturge. Even with the non DoT focused meta this distribution is much too imbalanced towards Elfborn and thus diminishes the percent contribution of Shadow stone to your overall damage. Essentially you are making shadow less effective AND lowering your damage by not speccing more into Thaumaturge.
3. Assuming that you can have Alkosh up 100% of the time is a fallacy. If you watch the top groups you can see that Alkosh is definitely not up 100% of the time.
4. Ilambris is a monster set that benefits much more from TBS than Julianos, since spell damage does not affect monster helm damage.
5. You list major force as 30%. For it to be 30% you will have to refresh it every 9.5 seconds. Here is how unlikely that is. If you refresh major force every 12 seconds instead of every 9.5 seconds that 30% becomes an average of 23.75%. Now I can promise you that this type of uptime will not happen as you would have to have the dps run warhorn and then you are losing dps to gain dps (while that may be beneficial overall, it still lowers the gain from it further).
6. Finally and this is the most important part. The health bonus from TBS is so important to mitigate against burst damage in trials. A dead dps is a useless dps.Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on September 28, 2016 6:59PM1 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Greetings everyone,
I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
I considered that 100% of the target's armor was mitigated, which is not uncommon in a trial setting. Therefore I decided to use a Precise Staff (7% Critical Chance) for the calculations. My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 76 Elfborn, 1 Staff Expert and 10 Thaumaturge. This may not be the perfect set-up, but I decided to go for it anyway.
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/Julianos vs TBS vs MS.001_zpswbgkjd8x.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
The reason you may be getting erroneous results is because your setup has a few fundamental flaws.
1. You assume full target penetration with a precise weapon. That is not currently possible. With Alkosh up and your gear set, the boss will still have around 3% mitigation. This is not huge but will affect your results.
2. You have 76 points in Elfborn and 10 in Thaumaturge. Even with the non DoT focused meta this distribution is much too imbalanced towards Elfborn and thus diminishes the percent contribution of Shadow stone to your overall damage. Essentially you are making shadow less effective AND lowering your damage by not speccing more into Thaumaturge.
3. Assuming that you can have Alkosh up 100% of the time is a fallacy. If you watch the top groups you can see that Alkosh is definitely not up 100% of the time.
4. Ilambris is a monster set that benefits much more from TBS than Julianos, since spell damage does not affect monster helm damage.
5. You list major force as 30%. For it to be 30% you will have to refresh it every 9.5 seconds. Here is how unlikely that is. If you refresh major force every 12 seconds instead of every 9.5 seconds that 30% becomes an average of 23.75%. Now I can promise you that this type of uptime will not happen as you would have to have the dps run warhorn and then you are losing dps to gain dps (while that may be beneficial overall, it still lowers the gain from it further).
6. Finally and this is the most important part. The health bonus from TBS is so important to mitigate against burst damage in trials. A dead dps is a useless dps.
I guess I'll redo everything then, taking your feedback into account. I still have trouble believing that TBS is absolute BiS... I will update the OP as soon as I have the new result!
Will be using Asayre's CP distribution. What is the average uptime of Major Force in a well organized trial group?@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
Foxic✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Greetings everyone,
I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
I considered that 100% of the target's armor was mitigated, which is not uncommon in a trial setting. Therefore I decided to use a Precise Staff (7% Critical Chance) for the calculations. My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 76 Elfborn, 1 Staff Expert and 10 Thaumaturge. This may not be the perfect set-up, but I decided to go for it anyway.
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/Julianos vs TBS vs MS.001_zpswbgkjd8x.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
The reason you may be getting erroneous results is because your setup has a few fundamental flaws.
1. You assume full target penetration with a precise weapon. That is not currently possible. With Alkosh up and your gear set, the boss will still have around 3% mitigation. This is not huge but will affect your results.
2. You have 76 points in Elfborn and 10 in Thaumaturge. Even with the non DoT focused meta this distribution is much too imbalanced towards Elfborn and thus diminishes the percent contribution of Shadow stone to your overall damage. Essentially you are making shadow less effective AND lowering your damage by not speccing more into Thaumaturge.
3. Assuming that you can have Alkosh up 100% of the time is a fallacy. If you watch the top groups you can see that Alkosh is definitely not up 100% of the time.
4. Ilambris is a monster set that benefits much more from TBS than Julianos, since spell damage does not affect monster helm damage.
5. You list major force as 30%. For it to be 30% you will have to refresh it every 9.5 seconds. Here is how unlikely that is. If you refresh major force every 12 seconds instead of every 9.5 seconds that 30% becomes an average of 23.75%. Now I can promise you that this type of uptime will not happen as you would have to have the dps run warhorn and then you are losing dps to gain dps (while that may be beneficial overall, it still lowers the gain from it further).
6. Finally and this is the most important part. The health bonus from TBS is so important to mitigate against burst damage in trials. A dead dps is a useless dps.
To add on to your number 6. The health bonus is also especially important now because we are also losing the health from nerienethMechanically Challenged, PCNA competitive raid guild
Head of The Council of Raiders
First NA vAS Hardmode(#2 world)
World First Immortal Redeemer & Saintly Savior
All #1 Trial scores Clockwork City patch1 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Greetings everyone,
I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
I considered that 100% of the target's armor was mitigated, which is not uncommon in a trial setting. Therefore I decided to use a Precise Staff (7% Critical Chance) for the calculations. My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 76 Elfborn, 1 Staff Expert and 10 Thaumaturge. This may not be the perfect set-up, but I decided to go for it anyway.
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/Julianos vs TBS vs MS.001_zpswbgkjd8x.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
The reason you may be getting erroneous results is because your setup has a few fundamental flaws.
1. You assume full target penetration with a precise weapon. That is not currently possible. With Alkosh up and your gear set, the boss will still have around 3% mitigation. This is not huge but will affect your results.
2. You have 76 points in Elfborn and 10 in Thaumaturge. Even with the non DoT focused meta this distribution is much too imbalanced towards Elfborn and thus diminishes the percent contribution of Shadow stone to your overall damage. Essentially you are making shadow less effective AND lowering your damage by not speccing more into Thaumaturge.
3. Assuming that you can have Alkosh up 100% of the time is a fallacy. If you watch the top groups you can see that Alkosh is definitely not up 100% of the time.
4. Ilambris is a monster set that benefits much more from TBS than Julianos, since spell damage does not affect monster helm damage.
5. You list major force as 30%. For it to be 30% you will have to refresh it every 9.5 seconds. Here is how unlikely that is. If you refresh major force every 12 seconds instead of every 9.5 seconds that 30% becomes an average of 23.75%. Now I can promise you that this type of uptime will not happen as you would have to have the dps run warhorn and then you are losing dps to gain dps (while that may be beneficial overall, it still lowers the gain from it further).
6. Finally and this is the most important part. The health bonus from TBS is so important to mitigate against burst damage in trials. A dead dps is a useless dps.
To add on to your number 6. The health bonus is also especially important now because we are also losing the health from nerieneth
Yup:)0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Greetings everyone,
I was looking at the new set that is to be introduced in One Tamriel which is a potential Best in Slot for magicka DPS in PvE. The set is Mother's Sorrow. I decided to calculate the effective spell power of this item set and compare it to the classic Twice-born Star and Julianos. I view a few parses where Scathing Mage was used on a Sorcerer and I noticed that the usual uptime on the 5 piece set-bonus is around 59%, which is equal to 304.4 Spell Damage. Therefore I decided to use Julianos for the calculations.
The "complimentary" sets are 4 Infallible Aether and 2 Ilambris. All pieces of gear are legendary in Divines with legendary Magicka enchantments. The jewelry is also legendary quality with legendary Magical Harm glyphs. The head-piece is Heavy Armor, the shoulder-piece is Medium Armor and the rest is Light Armor.
We are obviously a Sorcerer. The chosen race for the comparisons is High Elf.
Our front bar is as follows : Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Velocious Curse, Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Meteor.
We have all the passives in the following skill trees: Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, Destruction Staff, Light Armor, Mages' Guild, Undaunted and High Elf.
The formula for calculating the Effective Spell Power = ((Magicka/10.5) + SpellDamage)*(1 + SpellCrit*SpellCritDamage)*(TargetSpellMitigation)
I considered that 100% of the target's armor was mitigated, which is not uncommon in a trial setting. Therefore I decided to use a Precise Staff (7% Critical Chance) for the calculations. My CP set-up for the Mage Constellation is : 100 Elemental Expert, 76 Elfborn, 1 Staff Expert and 10 Thaumaturge. This may not be the perfect set-up, but I decided to go for it anyway.
In combat stats: 50% uptime on Spell Damage Enchantment (174 Spell Damage), Minor Prophecy (3% Critical Hit Chance), Major Prophecy (10% Critical Hit Chance), Major Sorcerery (20% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs include: Spell Power Cure (258 Spell Damage), Aggressive Horn (10% increase to Magicka), Major Force (30% Critical Hit Damage), Minor Sorcerery (5% Spell Damage)
Raid buffs + Minor Force: sometimes a sorcerer might get Minor Force from Twilight Remedy or slotting Beast Trap on the back bar instead of Inner Light. I decided to include it.
So here we go:
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/wazzaiiight/media/Julianos vs TBS vs MS.001_zpswbgkjd8x.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=0
So obviously this is not a very accurate comparison but it surprised me. Twice-Born Star while being almost equally as powerful as Julianos without buffs, but when all raid buffs are applied, it is outclassed by miles. Mother's Sorrow without buffs is pretty lackluster compared to the other two, but with all raid buffs its only slightly behind Julianos. I don't quite understand why Twice-Born Star is that far behind Julianos and Mother's Sorrow, as pretty much everyone in a trial group is wearing this set... Please do tell me if there's an error somewhere in my calculations!
@Asayre So what does the Effective Spell Power represent in determining which item set is better?
So is Twice-born Star really that great..? Or is Julianos really the best? I'm not too convinced but if I did do this right, I might just bank my TBS and start wearing Julianos again! Also Scathing Mage is better than Julianos, which means that its BiS by miles.
Discuss!
The reason you may be getting erroneous results is because your setup has a few fundamental flaws.
1. You assume full target penetration with a precise weapon. That is not currently possible. With Alkosh up and your gear set, the boss will still have around 3% mitigation. This is not huge but will affect your results.
2. You have 76 points in Elfborn and 10 in Thaumaturge. Even with the non DoT focused meta this distribution is much too imbalanced towards Elfborn and thus diminishes the percent contribution of Shadow stone to your overall damage. Essentially you are making shadow less effective AND lowering your damage by not speccing more into Thaumaturge.
3. Assuming that you can have Alkosh up 100% of the time is a fallacy. If you watch the top groups you can see that Alkosh is definitely not up 100% of the time.
4. Ilambris is a monster set that benefits much more from TBS than Julianos, since spell damage does not affect monster helm damage.
5. You list major force as 30%. For it to be 30% you will have to refresh it every 9.5 seconds. Here is how unlikely that is. If you refresh major force every 12 seconds instead of every 9.5 seconds that 30% becomes an average of 23.75%. Now I can promise you that this type of uptime will not happen as you would have to have the dps run warhorn and then you are losing dps to gain dps (while that may be beneficial overall, it still lowers the gain from it further).
6. Finally and this is the most important part. The health bonus from TBS is so important to mitigate against burst damage in trials. A dead dps is a useless dps.
I guess I'll redo everything then, taking your feedback into account. I still have trouble believing that TBS is absolute BiS... I will update the OP as soon as I have the new result!
Will be using Asayre's CP distribution. What is the average uptime of Major Force in a well organized trial group?
Most groups don't average more than one every 30 seconds. Good groups do 1 every 20 seconds. Really good groups I'd wager every 15 seconds. 20 seconds would be top 15 raid groups0 -
iam117✭✭✭alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.<Liv3mind><PC/NA - Legion Of The Bloodworks>Snowflake Patrol0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
iam117✭✭✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve<Liv3mind><PC/NA - Legion Of The Bloodworks>Snowflake Patrol0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Edited by Izaki on September 28, 2016 10:37PM@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
iam117✭✭✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
no, i understand it, was my misunderstanding as to how you were using it. apologies.<Liv3mind><PC/NA - Legion Of The Bloodworks>Snowflake Patrol1 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Hey I dont follow your values.
Example:
Julianos you state spell damage as 3559.
Your set up has Aether 3 jewelry and 1 weapon = 174 spell damage per jewelry piece, 129 from aether bonus and 348 x .5 from weapon enchant = 825 spell damage
5 Julianos = 300 spell damage
Staff = 1335 spell damage
Spell power cure = 258
(1335 + 300 + 825 + 258) x 1.25 = 3397 spell damage
Where are you getting the other spell damage from?
Next Your Crit damage is completely wrong.
50 base, 12 minor force 17 elfborn and 30 major force...except major force is not additive but multiplicative. This means that Critical damage on julianos is (50 + 12 + 17) x 1.3 = 102.7
Both of these changes should lower your overall Julianos potential to 13707 + Ilambris
For TBS applying the same logic would net you 13735 + Ilambris. So not only is TBS better, it is buffing Ilambrris unlike Julianos.
0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Hey I dont follow your values.
Example:
Julianos you state spell damage as 3559.
Your set up has Aether 3 jewelry and 1 weapon = 174 spell damage per jewelry piece, 129 from aether bonus and 348 x .5 from weapon enchant = 825 spell damage
5 Julianos = 300 spell damage
Staff = 1335 spell damage
Spell power cure = 258
(1335 + 300 + 825 + 258) x 1.25 = 3397 spell damage
Where are you getting the other spell damage from?
Next Your Crit damage is completely wrong.
50 base, 12 minor force 17 elfborn and 30 major force...except major force is not additive but multiplicative. This means that Critical damage on julianos is (50 + 12 + 17) x 1.3 = 102.7
Both of these changes should lower your overall Julianos potential to 13707 + Ilambris
For TBS applying the same logic would net you 13735 + Ilambris. So not only is TBS better, it is buffing Ilambrris unlike Julianos.
Class passives 6% with 3 sorcerer abilities slotted. So its (1335+299+825+258) x 1.31 = 3559.3
You sure about Horn being multiplicative?
Well that certainly changes some stuff...
So Julianos without Minor Force = 67 x 1.3 = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12770
Mother's Sorrow without Minor Force = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12440
TBS without Minor Force = 85 x 1.3 = 110.5 so the Effective SP is 12675
With Minor Force respectively: 102.7; 102.7; 126.1
13646 for Julianos
13346 for Mother's Sorrow
13421 for TBS
Julianos is still on top... You are right about Ilambris though. But Julianos has a higher critical chance so that might very well outplay TBS critical damage benefit.@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Hey I dont follow your values.
Example:
Julianos you state spell damage as 3559.
Your set up has Aether 3 jewelry and 1 weapon = 174 spell damage per jewelry piece, 129 from aether bonus and 348 x .5 from weapon enchant = 825 spell damage
5 Julianos = 300 spell damage
Staff = 1335 spell damage
Spell power cure = 258
(1335 + 300 + 825 + 258) x 1.25 = 3397 spell damage
Where are you getting the other spell damage from?
Next Your Crit damage is completely wrong.
50 base, 12 minor force 17 elfborn and 30 major force...except major force is not additive but multiplicative. This means that Critical damage on julianos is (50 + 12 + 17) x 1.3 = 102.7
Both of these changes should lower your overall Julianos potential to 13707 + Ilambris
For TBS applying the same logic would net you 13735 + Ilambris. So not only is TBS better, it is buffing Ilambrris unlike Julianos.
Class passives 6% with 3 sorcerer abilities slotted. So its (1335+299+825+258) x 1.31 = 3559.3
You sure about Horn being multiplicative? Well that certainly changes some stuff...
So Julianos without Minor Force = 67 x 1.3 = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12770
Mother's Sorrow without Minor Force = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12440
TBS without Minor Force = 85 x 1.3 = 110.5 so the Effective SP is 12675
With Minor Force respectively: 102.7; 102.7; 126.1
13646 for Julianos
13346 for Mother's Sorrow
13421 for TBS
Julianos is still on top... You are right about Ilambris though. But Julianos has a higher critical chance so that might very well outplay TBS critical damage benefit.
Hey good catch on the sorc passive. Im not getting the same values for TBS crit damage though.
My formula is:
(Base + Minor force + Elfborn + Shadow) x 1.3 = (.5 + .12 + .17 + .183) x 1.3 = 1.265
(Spell damage + Max Mag/10.46) x (1+ (Crit chance)(Crit Damage))
So for Julianos:
(3560 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.712)(1.027)) = (8081) x 1.731 = 13990
For TBS:
(3167 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.649)(1.265)) = (7688) x 1.821 = 13999
So TBS wins0 -
Thrasher91604✭✭✭✭✭Well this is a pretty lousy analysis if you don't list all of the assumptions. Bound to be lots of errors.0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thrasher91604 wrote: »
Well obviously thThrasher91604 wrote: »
The thief. Its more effective in most cases than the shadow.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Hey I dont follow your values.
Example:
Julianos you state spell damage as 3559.
Your set up has Aether 3 jewelry and 1 weapon = 174 spell damage per jewelry piece, 129 from aether bonus and 348 x .5 from weapon enchant = 825 spell damage
5 Julianos = 300 spell damage
Staff = 1335 spell damage
Spell power cure = 258
(1335 + 300 + 825 + 258) x 1.25 = 3397 spell damage
Where are you getting the other spell damage from?
Next Your Crit damage is completely wrong.
50 base, 12 minor force 17 elfborn and 30 major force...except major force is not additive but multiplicative. This means that Critical damage on julianos is (50 + 12 + 17) x 1.3 = 102.7
Both of these changes should lower your overall Julianos potential to 13707 + Ilambris
For TBS applying the same logic would net you 13735 + Ilambris. So not only is TBS better, it is buffing Ilambrris unlike Julianos.
Class passives 6% with 3 sorcerer abilities slotted. So its (1335+299+825+258) x 1.31 = 3559.3
You sure about Horn being multiplicative? Well that certainly changes some stuff...
So Julianos without Minor Force = 67 x 1.3 = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12770
Mother's Sorrow without Minor Force = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12440
TBS without Minor Force = 85 x 1.3 = 110.5 so the Effective SP is 12675
With Minor Force respectively: 102.7; 102.7; 126.1
13646 for Julianos
13346 for Mother's Sorrow
13421 for TBS
Julianos is still on top... You are right about Ilambris though. But Julianos has a higher critical chance so that might very well outplay TBS critical damage benefit.
Hey good catch on the sorc passive. Im not getting the same values for TBS crit damage though.
My formula is:
(Base + Minor force + Elfborn + Shadow) x 1.3 = (.5 + .12 + .17 + .183) x 1.3 = 1.265
(Spell damage + Max Mag/10.46) x (1+ (Crit chance)(Crit Damage))
So for Julianos:
(3560 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.712)(1.027)) = (8081) x 1.731 = 13990
For TBS:
(3167 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.649)(1.265)) = (7688) x 1.821 = 13999
So TBS wins
Damn it I think I messed up with the spell damage values on TBS and Mother's Sorrow..!
What I really meant is: 13638 for TBS. Which is much much closer to Julianos and this does seem about right.
Well we got pretty much the same values for the Critical Damage on TBS = (0.5 + 0.12 + 0.167 + 0.183) x 1.3 = 1.261
You rounded up the Elfborn, thing is I don't know if its meant to be rounded up, what I do know is that it does suffer from jump points..! You also forgot to include the spell penetration in the formula. You round up too much
So if I go without rounding up at all:
For Julianos: 8080 x 1.73122 = 13988.29; then for the penetration you go 13988.29 x 0.9776 = 13674.95
For TBS: I got 7688 x 1.81839 = 13979.77; then with penetration: 13979.77 x 0.9776 = 13666.62.
Another thing is that I used 10.5 instead of 10.46... So that probably explains why we got different values in the first place.
I guess it all depends on whether we are supposed to round up the Elfborn points or no. The 0.4 difference in the Critical Damage has affected the final results by quite a lot. I'll update the OP again later on in the day, when we will get to a conclusion.
But wait! Its not over, there's still Scathing Mage waiting to be analyzed
Edited by Izaki on September 29, 2016 5:27AM@ Izaki #PCEU
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#MoreDPSthanYou
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hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Thrasher91604 wrote: »
Well obviously thThrasher91604 wrote: »
The thief. Its more effective in most cases than the shadow.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Hey I dont follow your values.
Example:
Julianos you state spell damage as 3559.
Your set up has Aether 3 jewelry and 1 weapon = 174 spell damage per jewelry piece, 129 from aether bonus and 348 x .5 from weapon enchant = 825 spell damage
5 Julianos = 300 spell damage
Staff = 1335 spell damage
Spell power cure = 258
(1335 + 300 + 825 + 258) x 1.25 = 3397 spell damage
Where are you getting the other spell damage from?
Next Your Crit damage is completely wrong.
50 base, 12 minor force 17 elfborn and 30 major force...except major force is not additive but multiplicative. This means that Critical damage on julianos is (50 + 12 + 17) x 1.3 = 102.7
Both of these changes should lower your overall Julianos potential to 13707 + Ilambris
For TBS applying the same logic would net you 13735 + Ilambris. So not only is TBS better, it is buffing Ilambrris unlike Julianos.
Class passives 6% with 3 sorcerer abilities slotted. So its (1335+299+825+258) x 1.31 = 3559.3
You sure about Horn being multiplicative? Well that certainly changes some stuff...
So Julianos without Minor Force = 67 x 1.3 = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12770
Mother's Sorrow without Minor Force = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12440
TBS without Minor Force = 85 x 1.3 = 110.5 so the Effective SP is 12675
With Minor Force respectively: 102.7; 102.7; 126.1
13646 for Julianos
13346 for Mother's Sorrow
13421 for TBS
Julianos is still on top... You are right about Ilambris though. But Julianos has a higher critical chance so that might very well outplay TBS critical damage benefit.
Hey good catch on the sorc passive. Im not getting the same values for TBS crit damage though.
My formula is:
(Base + Minor force + Elfborn + Shadow) x 1.3 = (.5 + .12 + .17 + .183) x 1.3 = 1.265
(Spell damage + Max Mag/10.46) x (1+ (Crit chance)(Crit Damage))
So for Julianos:
(3560 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.712)(1.027)) = (8081) x 1.731 = 13990
For TBS:
(3167 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.649)(1.265)) = (7688) x 1.821 = 13999
So TBS wins
Damn it I think I messed up with the spell damage values on TBS and Mother's Sorrow..!
What I really meant is: 13638 for TBS. Which is much much closer to Julianos and this does seem about right.
Well we got pretty much the same values for the Critical Damage on TBS = (0.5 + 0.12 + 0.167 + 0.183) x 1.3 = 1.261
You rounded up the Elfborn, thing is I don't know if its meant to be rounded up, what I do know is that it does suffer from jump points..! You also forgot to include the spell penetration in the formula. You round up too much So if I go without rounding up at all:
For Julianos: 8080 x 1.73122 = 13988.29; then for the penetration you go 13988.29 x 0.9776 = 13674.95
For TBS: I got 7688 x 1.81839 = 13979.77; then with penetration: 13979.77 x 0.9776 = 13666.62.
Another thing is that I used 10.5 instead of 10.46... So that probably explains why we got different values in the first place.
I guess it all depends on whether we are supposed to round up the Elfborn points or no. The 0.4 difference in the Critical Damage has affected the final results by quite a lot. I'll update the OP again later on in the day, when we will get to a conclusion.
But wait! Its not over, there's still Scathing Mage waiting to be analyzed
Elfborn works in jumpoints, so no 16.7...only 17. Asayre has a jump point list in his post and each 1 corresponds to a crit damage point. So 56 in elfborn is 17 crit damage points.
The penetration plays no role because its the same across the board for all of the sets, so it can be excluded from the equation. 10.46 is the more precise number to use for magicka to spell damage. Also scathing mage is not something Id use on a sorc because of how important the health bonus is and how much harder it is to proc scathing on a sorc.Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on September 29, 2016 5:36AM0 -
DRXHarbinger✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Take major force out of the equation and what's more effective.
After a wipe you haven't got it, and tbh most "organised groups" don't have it up every 10s, on the twins half the group is top far away to get warhorn that frequently (everyone forgets you need to be within 12m of the caster) and for the mage too, quite hard to make sure everyone gets it without the caster being in the bosses face.PC Master Race
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Seratopia✭✭✭✭I have nothing to contribute but want to say I am amazed at what you people do to calculate things. I could never. Hope you guys figure things out.
1 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭DRXHarbinger wrote: »Take major force out of the equation and what's more effective.
After a wipe you haven't got it, and tbh most "organised groups" don't have it up every 10s, on the twins half the group is top far away to get warhorn that frequently (everyone forgets you need to be within 12m of the caster) and for the mage too, quite hard to make sure everyone gets it without the caster being in the bosses face.
On the twins the healer casting it should be in the middle, that way they cover the entire group.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmm 59% uptime of scathing mage is ~300 spell dmg? that's huge mistake in calculations. when You get that 516 spell dmg it's immediatly increased by major and sometimes minor sorcery and sorc passive so instead of 516 You should count it as ~675 and 59% of this is ~400.
Also if some dmg base value is increased by 675 spell dmg and it's for example shock dmg You get additional 9% to this value which increases dmg boost of scathing mage even more.0 -
Reorx_Holybeard✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Thrasher91604 wrote: »
Well obviously thThrasher91604 wrote: »
The thief. Its more effective in most cases than the shadow.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Hey I dont follow your values.
Example:
Julianos you state spell damage as 3559.
Your set up has Aether 3 jewelry and 1 weapon = 174 spell damage per jewelry piece, 129 from aether bonus and 348 x .5 from weapon enchant = 825 spell damage
5 Julianos = 300 spell damage
Staff = 1335 spell damage
Spell power cure = 258
(1335 + 300 + 825 + 258) x 1.25 = 3397 spell damage
Where are you getting the other spell damage from?
Next Your Crit damage is completely wrong.
50 base, 12 minor force 17 elfborn and 30 major force...except major force is not additive but multiplicative. This means that Critical damage on julianos is (50 + 12 + 17) x 1.3 = 102.7
Both of these changes should lower your overall Julianos potential to 13707 + Ilambris
For TBS applying the same logic would net you 13735 + Ilambris. So not only is TBS better, it is buffing Ilambrris unlike Julianos.
Class passives 6% with 3 sorcerer abilities slotted. So its (1335+299+825+258) x 1.31 = 3559.3
You sure about Horn being multiplicative? Well that certainly changes some stuff...
So Julianos without Minor Force = 67 x 1.3 = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12770
Mother's Sorrow without Minor Force = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12440
TBS without Minor Force = 85 x 1.3 = 110.5 so the Effective SP is 12675
With Minor Force respectively: 102.7; 102.7; 126.1
13646 for Julianos
13346 for Mother's Sorrow
13421 for TBS
Julianos is still on top... You are right about Ilambris though. But Julianos has a higher critical chance so that might very well outplay TBS critical damage benefit.
Hey good catch on the sorc passive. Im not getting the same values for TBS crit damage though.
My formula is:
(Base + Minor force + Elfborn + Shadow) x 1.3 = (.5 + .12 + .17 + .183) x 1.3 = 1.265
(Spell damage + Max Mag/10.46) x (1+ (Crit chance)(Crit Damage))
So for Julianos:
(3560 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.712)(1.027)) = (8081) x 1.731 = 13990
For TBS:
(3167 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.649)(1.265)) = (7688) x 1.821 = 13999
So TBS wins
Damn it I think I messed up with the spell damage values on TBS and Mother's Sorrow..!
What I really meant is: 13638 for TBS. Which is much much closer to Julianos and this does seem about right.
Well we got pretty much the same values for the Critical Damage on TBS = (0.5 + 0.12 + 0.167 + 0.183) x 1.3 = 1.261
You rounded up the Elfborn, thing is I don't know if its meant to be rounded up, what I do know is that it does suffer from jump points..! You also forgot to include the spell penetration in the formula. You round up too much So if I go without rounding up at all:
For Julianos: 8080 x 1.73122 = 13988.29; then for the penetration you go 13988.29 x 0.9776 = 13674.95
For TBS: I got 7688 x 1.81839 = 13979.77; then with penetration: 13979.77 x 0.9776 = 13666.62.
Another thing is that I used 10.5 instead of 10.46... So that probably explains why we got different values in the first place.
I guess it all depends on whether we are supposed to round up the Elfborn points or no. The 0.4 difference in the Critical Damage has affected the final results by quite a lot. I'll update the OP again later on in the day, when we will get to a conclusion.
But wait! Its not over, there's still Scathing Mage waiting to be analyzed
... 10.46 is the more precise number to use for magicka to spell damage....
I wouldn't worry too much about the exact ratio used so long as it is around 10.5 and you use the same ratio for everything. The actual ratio for abilities actually varies between 10.2 and 11.3 for the vact majority of abilities with 10.5 being the most common (more than half of abilities have ratios between 10.49 and 10.51).
I believe the exact value of 10.46 came from @Asarye's initial skill coefficient data over a year ago and was the average of all coefficient ratios. Doing the same just now for our skill coefficients gives me an average ratio of 10.49.
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hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hmm 59% uptime of scathing mage is ~300 spell dmg? that's huge mistake in calculations. when You get that 516 spell dmg it's immediatly increased by major and sometimes minor sorcery and sorc passive so instead of 516 You should count it as ~675 and 59% of this is ~400.
Also if some dmg base value is increased by 675 spell dmg and it's for example shock dmg You get additional 9% to this value which increases dmg boost of scathing mage even more.
I'm not sure if you didn't read the post/click on the link or what, but the OP obviously meant pre spell damage buffs. Full raid buffs spell damage from Scathing with all the other spell damage buffs in the build are displayed in the OP's link.
Your lightning damage bonus comment has nothing to do with this discussion at all. That % is applied to the entirety of lightning damage and not just scathing mage, so it isn't important to this discussion...Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on September 29, 2016 2:04PM0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Thrasher91604 wrote: »
Well obviously thThrasher91604 wrote: »
The thief. Its more effective in most cases than the shadow.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Hey I dont follow your values.
Example:
Julianos you state spell damage as 3559.
Your set up has Aether 3 jewelry and 1 weapon = 174 spell damage per jewelry piece, 129 from aether bonus and 348 x .5 from weapon enchant = 825 spell damage
5 Julianos = 300 spell damage
Staff = 1335 spell damage
Spell power cure = 258
(1335 + 300 + 825 + 258) x 1.25 = 3397 spell damage
Where are you getting the other spell damage from?
Next Your Crit damage is completely wrong.
50 base, 12 minor force 17 elfborn and 30 major force...except major force is not additive but multiplicative. This means that Critical damage on julianos is (50 + 12 + 17) x 1.3 = 102.7
Both of these changes should lower your overall Julianos potential to 13707 + Ilambris
For TBS applying the same logic would net you 13735 + Ilambris. So not only is TBS better, it is buffing Ilambrris unlike Julianos.
Class passives 6% with 3 sorcerer abilities slotted. So its (1335+299+825+258) x 1.31 = 3559.3
You sure about Horn being multiplicative? Well that certainly changes some stuff...
So Julianos without Minor Force = 67 x 1.3 = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12770
Mother's Sorrow without Minor Force = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12440
TBS without Minor Force = 85 x 1.3 = 110.5 so the Effective SP is 12675
With Minor Force respectively: 102.7; 102.7; 126.1
13646 for Julianos
13346 for Mother's Sorrow
13421 for TBS
Julianos is still on top... You are right about Ilambris though. But Julianos has a higher critical chance so that might very well outplay TBS critical damage benefit.
Hey good catch on the sorc passive. Im not getting the same values for TBS crit damage though.
My formula is:
(Base + Minor force + Elfborn + Shadow) x 1.3 = (.5 + .12 + .17 + .183) x 1.3 = 1.265
(Spell damage + Max Mag/10.46) x (1+ (Crit chance)(Crit Damage))
So for Julianos:
(3560 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.712)(1.027)) = (8081) x 1.731 = 13990
For TBS:
(3167 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.649)(1.265)) = (7688) x 1.821 = 13999
So TBS wins
Damn it I think I messed up with the spell damage values on TBS and Mother's Sorrow..!
What I really meant is: 13638 for TBS. Which is much much closer to Julianos and this does seem about right.
Well we got pretty much the same values for the Critical Damage on TBS = (0.5 + 0.12 + 0.167 + 0.183) x 1.3 = 1.261
You rounded up the Elfborn, thing is I don't know if its meant to be rounded up, what I do know is that it does suffer from jump points..! You also forgot to include the spell penetration in the formula. You round up too much So if I go without rounding up at all:
For Julianos: 8080 x 1.73122 = 13988.29; then for the penetration you go 13988.29 x 0.9776 = 13674.95
For TBS: I got 7688 x 1.81839 = 13979.77; then with penetration: 13979.77 x 0.9776 = 13666.62.
Another thing is that I used 10.5 instead of 10.46... So that probably explains why we got different values in the first place.
I guess it all depends on whether we are supposed to round up the Elfborn points or no. The 0.4 difference in the Critical Damage has affected the final results by quite a lot. I'll update the OP again later on in the day, when we will get to a conclusion.
But wait! Its not over, there's still Scathing Mage waiting to be analyzed
... 10.46 is the more precise number to use for magicka to spell damage....
I wouldn't worry too much about the exact ratio used so long as it is around 10.5 and you use the same ratio for everything. The actual ratio for abilities actually varies between 10.2 and 11.3 for the vact majority of abilities with 10.5 being the most common (more than half of abilities have ratios between 10.49 and 10.51).
I believe the exact value of 10.46 came from @Asarye's initial skill coefficient data over a year ago and was the average of all coefficient ratios. Doing the same just now for our skill coefficients gives me an average ratio of 10.49.
His data was not posted a year ago. It was posted for thieves guild. But yeah the coefficients may have changed since then I suppose. TBS is still king:)0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Thrasher91604 wrote: »
Well obviously thThrasher91604 wrote: »
The thief. Its more effective in most cases than the shadow.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »Do you really think 17k health + Ebon isn't enough?..
You won't have 17k health and ebon. You will have 17k with Ebon if you don't wear TBS.
I have 17k without TBS and Ebon right now... 16997 to be exact. Wearing Julianos, Aether and Willpower (my vDSA set-up). And I'm not even at the CP cap (521 currently). Don't believe me? I'll post a picture if you want. So in the next patch you should be looking at 18446 health with CP561. Only undaunted and heavy armor passives for 1 piece worn. No Ebon or 1 piece health bonus.
Anyway @hedna123b14_ESO check out the updated stuff.IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »alot more to the pve side than effective spell dmg, theif gain of 16%+ and shadow of 18%+ is huge, effective spell damage is not king in pve group play.
Effective spell power is meant to be the indicator of how strong your character is. Group buffs are taken into account, i will edit the OP and give new results, taking into account 1 horn every 30 seconds and all the feedback.
to an extent yes, but having more crit and harder hitting crit surpasses sp power at a point in pve
You don't understand what effective spell power is, do you?.. It is the function that encompasses your Spell Damage, your Maximum Magicka, your Spell Critical Chance, you Spell Critical Damage and your Spell Penetration. So its a function that has all the components that determine your damage output. Its a custom stat that represents your overall power with spell/magicka attacks and can be used to compare different build setups. The higher the number, the better your build is. So its a tool for comparing builds. I put the formula in the OP if you want to have fun calculating stuff for yourself
Hey I dont follow your values.
Example:
Julianos you state spell damage as 3559.
Your set up has Aether 3 jewelry and 1 weapon = 174 spell damage per jewelry piece, 129 from aether bonus and 348 x .5 from weapon enchant = 825 spell damage
5 Julianos = 300 spell damage
Staff = 1335 spell damage
Spell power cure = 258
(1335 + 300 + 825 + 258) x 1.25 = 3397 spell damage
Where are you getting the other spell damage from?
Next Your Crit damage is completely wrong.
50 base, 12 minor force 17 elfborn and 30 major force...except major force is not additive but multiplicative. This means that Critical damage on julianos is (50 + 12 + 17) x 1.3 = 102.7
Both of these changes should lower your overall Julianos potential to 13707 + Ilambris
For TBS applying the same logic would net you 13735 + Ilambris. So not only is TBS better, it is buffing Ilambrris unlike Julianos.
Class passives 6% with 3 sorcerer abilities slotted. So its (1335+299+825+258) x 1.31 = 3559.3
You sure about Horn being multiplicative? Well that certainly changes some stuff...
So Julianos without Minor Force = 67 x 1.3 = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12770
Mother's Sorrow without Minor Force = 87.1 so the Effective SP is 12440
TBS without Minor Force = 85 x 1.3 = 110.5 so the Effective SP is 12675
With Minor Force respectively: 102.7; 102.7; 126.1
13646 for Julianos
13346 for Mother's Sorrow
13421 for TBS
Julianos is still on top... You are right about Ilambris though. But Julianos has a higher critical chance so that might very well outplay TBS critical damage benefit.
Hey good catch on the sorc passive. Im not getting the same values for TBS crit damage though.
My formula is:
(Base + Minor force + Elfborn + Shadow) x 1.3 = (.5 + .12 + .17 + .183) x 1.3 = 1.265
(Spell damage + Max Mag/10.46) x (1+ (Crit chance)(Crit Damage))
So for Julianos:
(3560 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.712)(1.027)) = (8081) x 1.731 = 13990
For TBS:
(3167 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + (.649)(1.265)) = (7688) x 1.821 = 13999
So TBS wins
Damn it I think I messed up with the spell damage values on TBS and Mother's Sorrow..!
What I really meant is: 13638 for TBS. Which is much much closer to Julianos and this does seem about right.
Well we got pretty much the same values for the Critical Damage on TBS = (0.5 + 0.12 + 0.167 + 0.183) x 1.3 = 1.261
You rounded up the Elfborn, thing is I don't know if its meant to be rounded up, what I do know is that it does suffer from jump points..! You also forgot to include the spell penetration in the formula. You round up too much So if I go without rounding up at all:
For Julianos: 8080 x 1.73122 = 13988.29; then for the penetration you go 13988.29 x 0.9776 = 13674.95
For TBS: I got 7688 x 1.81839 = 13979.77; then with penetration: 13979.77 x 0.9776 = 13666.62.
Another thing is that I used 10.5 instead of 10.46... So that probably explains why we got different values in the first place.
I guess it all depends on whether we are supposed to round up the Elfborn points or no. The 0.4 difference in the Critical Damage has affected the final results by quite a lot. I'll update the OP again later on in the day, when we will get to a conclusion.
But wait! Its not over, there's still Scathing Mage waiting to be analyzed
Elfborn works in jumpoints, so no 16.7...only 17. Asayre has a jump point list in his post and each 1 corresponds to a crit damage point. So 56 in elfborn is 17 crit damage points.
The penetration plays no role because its the same across the board for all of the sets, so it can be excluded from the equation. 10.46 is the more precise number to use for magicka to spell damage. Also scathing mage is not something Id use on a sorc because of how important the health bonus is and how much harder it is to proc scathing on a sorc.
Oh my god, I totally forgot about the jump points... Stupid me.
Well I mean the skill coefficient really doesn't matter as long as our CHC x CHD is the same, because its still proportionate. Yes you don't need the penetration at all for the comparison, I just wanted to try to get a more or less accurate value.
Well you are right then. TBS has the maximum damage potential.! But then again what about without the Horn? What about without Minor Force? Its is good to run Beast Trap on a sorcerer instead of Inner Light, but you can't always get into close range with the boss (Twins...), and you may not always want to grab the healer's synergies because they are for tanks and Alkosh/Moondancer. We still have to take into account the fact that Major Force is only up 1/3rd of the time.
So without Minor Force and Major Force, but with all other group buffs we get:
For Julianos : (3559 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + 0.67 x 0.712) = 11934.5
For TBS : (3167 + 47290/10.46) x (1 + 0.853 x 0.649) = 11944.1
So TBS is still king! Guess I'll take it out of my bank then lol
@hedna123b14_ESO Thanks for the help @ Izaki #PCEU
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