Templars are the new meta

Moglijuana · September 2016

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Moglijuana Lol not sure if you remember correctly or even played the PTS patch when ritual was nerfed to cleanse 2 effects before some changes were reverted and extended ritual was made to remove 5 effects and has no dmg component. I remember how it was as a Templar trying to fight a magicka DK with my spammable dps being ofc Jabs, a frontal cone completely negated by a DK spamming talons on GCD over and over, Temp and DK is a pointless fight in any case, but changing ritual benefited the DK and atm having ritual still doesn't benefit the templar against constant talons spam, sure the templar will not die, but won't be doing any dmg to the DK either because each rotation has to be stopped to spam purge 2x to get out of talons, in this time you are talons again, so nerfing cleanse again isn't the option and is unique to only templar.

Besides cheesing spears a Templar has no CC to go through block against a Mag DK so as you can see there are two sides to every coin. Not saying either or OP or need nerf, but the way these classes are designed a match up between the two with two equally skilled players will always draw and open world only be a nuisance to each other, nothing more, nothing less

This is true...however. There is still the fact that A) Talons has an extremely small range B ) it costs 3,500+ Magicka when compared to 2,800 (that also negates an entire 10K+ combo along with freeing them from said talons) C) if using burning talons the DOT is useless D)the snare from cleansing is enough to move around a slow DK.

All I'm saying is, before w.e changes were made in the last few patches, a MDK vs Templar fight could go either way. Now it's a 10+ min plus fight and an uphill battle for a dot only class with the most expensive skills in the game.

I don't want my class to be OP. I just want a 50/50 chance of winning or losing. My DK is currently BiS for PvP and I literally just walk away from other good Magplars bc it's an actual waste of time. I can swap my Dk's gear onto my Magplar and outperform my main in every way, with half the skill and half the brain.

Now, this problem may just be with MDK's as class (most likely) and not with Magplars themselves, but currently the balance between the two are very far apart.

Grumble_and_Grunt · September 2016

@Mog

Moglijuana wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Moglijuana Lol not sure if you remember correctly or even played the PTS patch when ritual was nerfed to cleanse 2 effects before some changes were reverted and extended ritual was made to remove 5 effects and has no dmg component. I remember how it was as a Templar trying to fight a magicka DK with my spammable dps being ofc Jabs, a frontal cone completely negated by a DK spamming talons on GCD over and over, Temp and DK is a pointless fight in any case, but changing ritual benefited the DK and atm having ritual still doesn't benefit the templar against constant talons spam, sure the templar will not die, but won't be doing any dmg to the DK either because each rotation has to be stopped to spam purge 2x to get out of talons, in this time you are talons again, so nerfing cleanse again isn't the option and is unique to only templar.

Besides cheesing spears a Templar has no CC to go through block against a Mag DK so as you can see there are two sides to every coin. Not saying either or OP or need nerf, but the way these classes are designed a match up between the two with two equally skilled players will always draw and open world only be a nuisance to each other, nothing more, nothing less

This is true...however. There is still the fact that A) Talons has an extremely small range B ) it costs 3,500+ Magicka when compared to 2,800 (that negates an entire 10K+ combo along with freeing them from said talons) C) if using burning talons the DOT is useless D)the snare from cleansing is enough to move around a slow DK.

All I'm saying is, before those changes a MDK vs Templar fight could go either way. Now it's a 10+ plus fight and an uphill battle for a dot only class with the most expensive skills in the game.

I don't want my class to be OP. I just want a 50/50 chance of winning or losing. My DK is currently BiS for PvP and I literally just walk away from other good Magplars bc it's an actual waste of time. I can swap my Dk's gear onto my Magplar and outperform my main in every way, with half the skill and half the brain.

@Moglijuana I would agree with this entirely, except snare and moving around a DK becuase this just creates a tango dance between temp and DK endlessly. However if the game had smart purge prioritisation as @DDuke spoke about in past then I would agree with your said changes.

Otherwise purge acts different on every occasion in what effect it decides to cleanse, which in open world is a lot of stacked negative effects, cleanse used to purge 14 effects and projectiles THAT was OP. I feel like 5 is a good balance for open pvp, duels is different story ofc, but I'd rather the class be balanced for open pvp than duels. Mag DK cry for buffs for poor movement in pvp and it is justified but nerfing cleanse to even less effects or increasing cost without making it prioritise immobilisations, snares and heal defiles, then that would put Templar on same level of movement struggles as a DK, simply queuing up a 'Buff Templar' Thread. If Temp should have any nerfs it would be reduce range of beam, less magicka return on channeled and a complete overhaul of Honor the Dead which is what makes a Templar in heavy armor so so strong.

It's sad also for someone who always play templar see the class completely ridiculed for an issue with certain sets than the class itself, as someone who doesn't wear any of those and potentially changing what I just noted, the class would imo be more balanced.

Moglijuana · September 2016

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Mog

Moglijuana wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Moglijuana Lol not sure if you remember correctly or even played the PTS patch when ritual was nerfed to cleanse 2 effects before some changes were reverted and extended ritual was made to remove 5 effects and has no dmg component. I remember how it was as a Templar trying to fight a magicka DK with my spammable dps being ofc Jabs, a frontal cone completely negated by a DK spamming talons on GCD over and over, Temp and DK is a pointless fight in any case, but changing ritual benefited the DK and atm having ritual still doesn't benefit the templar against constant talons spam, sure the templar will not die, but won't be doing any dmg to the DK either because each rotation has to be stopped to spam purge 2x to get out of talons, in this time you are talons again, so nerfing cleanse again isn't the option and is unique to only templar.

Besides cheesing spears a Templar has no CC to go through block against a Mag DK so as you can see there are two sides to every coin. Not saying either or OP or need nerf, but the way these classes are designed a match up between the two with two equally skilled players will always draw and open world only be a nuisance to each other, nothing more, nothing less

This is true...however. There is still the fact that A) Talons has an extremely small range B ) it costs 3,500+ Magicka when compared to 2,800 (that negates an entire 10K+ combo along with freeing them from said talons) C) if using burning talons the DOT is useless D)the snare from cleansing is enough to move around a slow DK.

All I'm saying is, before those changes a MDK vs Templar fight could go either way. Now it's a 10+ plus fight and an uphill battle for a dot only class with the most expensive skills in the game.

I don't want my class to be OP. I just want a 50/50 chance of winning or losing. My DK is currently BiS for PvP and I literally just walk away from other good Magplars bc it's an actual waste of time. I can swap my Dk's gear onto my Magplar and outperform my main in every way, with half the skill and half the brain.

@Moglijuana I would agree with this entirely, except snare and moving around a DK becuase this just creates a tango dance between temp and DK endlessly. However if the game had smart purge prioritisation as @DDuke spoke about in past then I would agree with your said changes.

Otherwise purge acts different on every occasion in what effect it decides to cleanse, which in open world is a lot of stacked negative effects, cleanse used to purge 14 effects and projectiles THAT was OP. I feel like 5 is a good balance for open pvp, duels is different story ofc, but I'd rather the class be balanced for open pvp than duels. Mag DK cry for buffs for poor movement in pvp and it is justified but nerfing cleanse to even less effects or increasing cost without making it prioritise immobilisations, snares and heal defiles, then that would put Templar on same level of movement struggles as a DK, simply queuing up a 'Buff Templar' Thread. If Temp should have any nerfs it would be reduce range of beam, less magicka return on channeled and a complete overhaul of Honor the Dead which is what makes a Templar in heavy armor so so strong.

It's sad also for someone who always play templar see the class completely ridiculed for an issue with certain sets than the class itself, as someone who doesn't wear any of those and potentially changing what I just noted, the class would imo be more balanced.

Hmm fair enough. Yea open world I don't really mind them as there is more that comes into play besides skill spamming. I guess I am kind of speaking about dueling for the most part. Which yes, you are right, it turns into a tango where both of us just run in circles trying to land abilities. It makes it kind of boring =/

And don't get me wrong, the people who have always played templar will always be good regardless of what buff/nerfs they get. I guess what upsets me most is seeing actually bad players, you know, the ones you run into that are ALWAYS bad, and then BOOM. You run into them on a newly grinded Heavy Armor Magplar and now you have a 10 min uphill battle =/. But I guess that's what happens when trying to balance MMO's.

I think a simple solution may be by changing ONE dk ability to do dmg if cleansed too early (kind of like how Inevitable det works). That way the cleansing is still strong, but must be used correctly. One can hope 0_0.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

I think that is more to do with the fact Cloak did a lot more than purge. I might also add Cloak still stops DoT ticks while it is activated, and if you're a magblade you can keep the cloak running indefinitely. I don't think your example is a very good one. Efficient Purge is quite often a much better choice. The Mazzatun Haj Mota (gigantic turtle) is a good example of this.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2016

Drdeath20 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

Efficient purge <mages guild tree> is equally used by magplars.
Efficient purge, purges and gives 10% increase in magicka for slotting it. Magplars have resource problems.

Actually Efficient Purge is an alliance war skill, not Mages guild.

Grumble_and_Grunt · September 2016

@

Moglijuana wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Mog

Moglijuana wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Moglijuana Lol not sure if you remember correctly or even played the PTS patch when ritual was nerfed to cleanse 2 effects before some changes were reverted and extended ritual was made to remove 5 effects and has no dmg component. I remember how it was as a Templar trying to fight a magicka DK with my spammable dps being ofc Jabs, a frontal cone completely negated by a DK spamming talons on GCD over and over, Temp and DK is a pointless fight in any case, but changing ritual benefited the DK and atm having ritual still doesn't benefit the templar against constant talons spam, sure the templar will not die, but won't be doing any dmg to the DK either because each rotation has to be stopped to spam purge 2x to get out of talons, in this time you are talons again, so nerfing cleanse again isn't the option and is unique to only templar.

Besides cheesing spears a Templar has no CC to go through block against a Mag DK so as you can see there are two sides to every coin. Not saying either or OP or need nerf, but the way these classes are designed a match up between the two with two equally skilled players will always draw and open world only be a nuisance to each other, nothing more, nothing less

This is true...however. There is still the fact that A) Talons has an extremely small range B ) it costs 3,500+ Magicka when compared to 2,800 (that negates an entire 10K+ combo along with freeing them from said talons) C) if using burning talons the DOT is useless D)the snare from cleansing is enough to move around a slow DK.

All I'm saying is, before those changes a MDK vs Templar fight could go either way. Now it's a 10+ plus fight and an uphill battle for a dot only class with the most expensive skills in the game.

I don't want my class to be OP. I just want a 50/50 chance of winning or losing. My DK is currently BiS for PvP and I literally just walk away from other good Magplars bc it's an actual waste of time. I can swap my Dk's gear onto my Magplar and outperform my main in every way, with half the skill and half the brain.

@Moglijuana I would agree with this entirely, except snare and moving around a DK becuase this just creates a tango dance between temp and DK endlessly. However if the game had smart purge prioritisation as @DDuke spoke about in past then I would agree with your said changes.

Otherwise purge acts different on every occasion in what effect it decides to cleanse, which in open world is a lot of stacked negative effects, cleanse used to purge 14 effects and projectiles THAT was OP. I feel like 5 is a good balance for open pvp, duels is different story ofc, but I'd rather the class be balanced for open pvp than duels. Mag DK cry for buffs for poor movement in pvp and it is justified but nerfing cleanse to even less effects or increasing cost without making it prioritise immobilisations, snares and heal defiles, then that would put Templar on same level of movement struggles as a DK, simply queuing up a 'Buff Templar' Thread. If Temp should have any nerfs it would be reduce range of beam, less magicka return on channeled and a complete overhaul of Honor the Dead which is what makes a Templar in heavy armor so so strong.

It's sad also for someone who always play templar see the class completely ridiculed for an issue with certain sets than the class itself, as someone who doesn't wear any of those and potentially changing what I just noted, the class would imo be more balanced.

Hmm fair enough. Yea open world I don't really mind them as there is more that comes into play besides skill spamming. I guess I am kind of speaking about dueling for the most part. Which yes, you are right, it turns into a tango where both of us just run in circles trying to land abilities. It makes it kind of boring =/

And don't get me wrong, the people who have always played templar will always be good regardless of what buff/nerfs they get. I guess what upsets me most is seeing actually bad players, you know, the ones you run into that are ALWAYS bad, and then BOOM. You run into them on a newly grinded Heavy Armor Magplar and now you have a 10 min uphill battle =/. But I guess that's what happens when trying to balance MMO's.

I think a simple solution may be by changing ONE dk ability to do dmg if cleansed too early (kind of like how Inevitable det works). That way the cleansing is still strong, but must be used correctly. One can hope 0_0.

@Moglijuana Yes these Templars annoy me too, for example these blazing shields, reactive templars will only be worse next patch, especially the blazing shield ones, ofc people are free to create a build as they like and are never going to kill anyone, but their immortality when played right is an issue, which stems from their sustain from HA with HTD and Channel focus as mentioned before and boosted next patch with new sets and sword and shield ult etc.

The logical buff for Magicka DK in this scenerio would to be to simply decrease their cost of spells, they are the highest of all classes and like Templar a class that is restricted to heavy armor to remain competitive especially in duels, I just recently swapped to Heavy because the one shot potential on light is too strong and sustain is even better on Heavy for all resources, If DK had reduced costs of skills like Talons, Deep Breath, Fossilise they could have more dmg potential and less restriction with mundus and enchants and playstyle like they do atm. Magicka DK is still very strong in a 1v1 however, but it does require more skill to play, more resource management, timing of combos, dealing with pressure etc. If anything game should go 180 and increase all skills to prevent the mind numbing button mashing the game is atm, but then Battle Roar would spark debate along with siphoning attacks etc. So let's just settle with reducing mag DK costs for now

?

Moglijuana · September 2016

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@

Moglijuana wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Mog

Moglijuana wrote: »

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Moglijuana Lol not sure if you remember correctly or even played the PTS patch when ritual was nerfed to cleanse 2 effects before some changes were reverted and extended ritual was made to remove 5 effects and has no dmg component. I remember how it was as a Templar trying to fight a magicka DK with my spammable dps being ofc Jabs, a frontal cone completely negated by a DK spamming talons on GCD over and over, Temp and DK is a pointless fight in any case, but changing ritual benefited the DK and atm having ritual still doesn't benefit the templar against constant talons spam, sure the templar will not die, but won't be doing any dmg to the DK either because each rotation has to be stopped to spam purge 2x to get out of talons, in this time you are talons again, so nerfing cleanse again isn't the option and is unique to only templar.

Besides cheesing spears a Templar has no CC to go through block against a Mag DK so as you can see there are two sides to every coin. Not saying either or OP or need nerf, but the way these classes are designed a match up between the two with two equally skilled players will always draw and open world only be a nuisance to each other, nothing more, nothing less

This is true...however. There is still the fact that A) Talons has an extremely small range B ) it costs 3,500+ Magicka when compared to 2,800 (that negates an entire 10K+ combo along with freeing them from said talons) C) if using burning talons the DOT is useless D)the snare from cleansing is enough to move around a slow DK.

All I'm saying is, before those changes a MDK vs Templar fight could go either way. Now it's a 10+ plus fight and an uphill battle for a dot only class with the most expensive skills in the game.

I don't want my class to be OP. I just want a 50/50 chance of winning or losing. My DK is currently BiS for PvP and I literally just walk away from other good Magplars bc it's an actual waste of time. I can swap my Dk's gear onto my Magplar and outperform my main in every way, with half the skill and half the brain.

@Moglijuana I would agree with this entirely, except snare and moving around a DK becuase this just creates a tango dance between temp and DK endlessly. However if the game had smart purge prioritisation as @DDuke spoke about in past then I would agree with your said changes.

Otherwise purge acts different on every occasion in what effect it decides to cleanse, which in open world is a lot of stacked negative effects, cleanse used to purge 14 effects and projectiles THAT was OP. I feel like 5 is a good balance for open pvp, duels is different story ofc, but I'd rather the class be balanced for open pvp than duels. Mag DK cry for buffs for poor movement in pvp and it is justified but nerfing cleanse to even less effects or increasing cost without making it prioritise immobilisations, snares and heal defiles, then that would put Templar on same level of movement struggles as a DK, simply queuing up a 'Buff Templar' Thread. If Temp should have any nerfs it would be reduce range of beam, less magicka return on channeled and a complete overhaul of Honor the Dead which is what makes a Templar in heavy armor so so strong.

It's sad also for someone who always play templar see the class completely ridiculed for an issue with certain sets than the class itself, as someone who doesn't wear any of those and potentially changing what I just noted, the class would imo be more balanced.

Hmm fair enough. Yea open world I don't really mind them as there is more that comes into play besides skill spamming. I guess I am kind of speaking about dueling for the most part. Which yes, you are right, it turns into a tango where both of us just run in circles trying to land abilities. It makes it kind of boring =/

And don't get me wrong, the people who have always played templar will always be good regardless of what buff/nerfs they get. I guess what upsets me most is seeing actually bad players, you know, the ones you run into that are ALWAYS bad, and then BOOM. You run into them on a newly grinded Heavy Armor Magplar and now you have a 10 min uphill battle =/. But I guess that's what happens when trying to balance MMO's.

I think a simple solution may be by changing ONE dk ability to do dmg if cleansed too early (kind of like how Inevitable det works). That way the cleansing is still strong, but must be used correctly. One can hope 0_0.

@Moglijuana Yes these Templars annoy me too, for example these blazing shields, reactive templars will only be worse next patch, especially the blazing shield ones, ofc people are free to create a build as they like and are never going to kill anyone, but their immortality when played right is an issue, which stems from their sustain from HA with HTD and Channel focus as mentioned before and boosted next patch with new sets and sword and shield ult etc.

The logical buff for Magicka DK in this scenerio would to be to simply decrease their cost of spells, they are the highest of all classes and like Templar a class that is restricted to heavy armor to remain competitive especially in duels, I just recently swapped to Heavy because the one shot potential on light is too strong and sustain is even better on Heavy for all resources, If DK had reduced costs of skills like Talons, Deep Breath, Fossilise they could have more dmg potential and less restriction with mundus and enchants and playstyle like they do atm. Magicka DK is still very strong in a 1v1 however, but it does require more skill to play, more resource management, timing of combos, dealing with pressure etc. If anything game should go 180 and increase all skills to prevent the mind numbing button mashing the game is atm, but then Battle Roar would spark debate along with siphoning attacks etc. So let's just settle with reducing mag DK costs for now ?

I would be a happy DK if my skills didn't cost an arm and a leg lol.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2016

Moglijuana wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

THIS x1,000,000!!!!! When my Dk's combo that costs around 10k magicka is negated and countered by a skill that costs 2,800...#balanced

And no i don't think Cleanse should be removed. But there should be SOME kind of skill associated with an ability that is a literal crutch that can be spammed with no consequence.

Just to make something clear, the same could be said of DK Flapping, Templar Cleansing (replicatable by an alliance war skill), NB Cloak, and Sorcerer Streak. You choose to call it a 'crutch' I call it a particular focus in competency. Lets be clear here, by design it was fairly clear early on that Templars were meant to be the Anti-DK. In like kind, DK's were meant to be the anti-Sorcerer. I could carry on and explain why this is so but I think much of the way the classes were designed make this fairly clear. Admittedly, some changes have come upon the game (like the shift from Blinding Flashes to Radiant).

Minno · September 2016

1) change RD to just an execute. Match max range of trials.
2) change solar barrage to a similar ranged morph of dark flare except with out the empower. Compensate removal of damage and add an undodgable component.
3) reduce BOL initial health. Increase low heal heal bonus to compensate.
4) put purge on percentage of heals/dmg done (5 neg effects still removed) Remove purge from alliance war. Rescale dots to ensure effective use but not completely OP.
5) reduce sharpened stats. Armor should have more viability against crazy stam dmg and require dynamic play against.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2016

Minno wrote: »

1) change RD to just an execute. Match max range of trials.
2) change solar barrage to a similar ranged morph of dark flare except with out the empower. Compensate removal of damage and add an undodgable component.
3) reduce BOL initial health. Increase low heal heal bonus to compensate.
4) put purge on percentage of heals/dmg done (5 neg effects still removed) Remove purge from alliance war. Rescale dots to ensure effective use but not completely OP.
5) reduce sharpened stats. Armor should have more viability against crazy stam dmg and require dynamic play against.

I'll just respond to your 2nd point. I don't think that Solar Barrage should be undone as a skill just because it has been a terrible skill for years. It would in my opinion make far more sense if this skill might afford a snare and a small DoT. It needs a reason to exist, and the strange way it Empowers seems quite odd for its obvious melee focus. I'm not entirely sure how the Empower was meant to work with the class. In the current phase of the game does one Barrage than Reflecting Light? RD? Sweeps? It seems a very odd design choice, and I would have preferred to see a snare or debuff tied to the skill, than a single use buff.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2016

SadieJoan wrote: »

I am so fed up of people picking on Templars, simply for being the only magicka class that can stand their ground against OP stamina sheep builds. I have started to play magicka sorcerer in pvp allot now, because I am so fed up with people bitching at me if I beat them with my templar (for some reason its OK to kill them when I play sorcerer ) which speaks volumes in itself, if stamtards are so horrified that they can be beaten by a magicka class, or cannot kill that magicka class in 2 hits, that they have to constantly complain about it

Once templar has been all but destroyed by the hoard of stamina nbs, dks and sorcerers (I never see stamina templars in pvp, I think they are extinct) the small percentage of people who refused to give up the way that they enjoy playing to join the stamtard army will have nothing left. I already know people who don't play the game anymore because the gap between stamina and magicka is so ridiculous now that they cannot compete and do not want to be forced into playing magicka templar or stamina anything in order to be competitive.

And as for magicka templar being boring, well, I suppose that comes down to personal preference, mine being that I can think of nothing more boring that playing stamina, and so never will succumb to the 'meta'

Just to be fair here, I know quite a few people who left the game for the same reason but in reverse: Stamina was so horrible, and Magic was soo good that they ultimately left the game. Many of those people I do not see logging back in, presumably because they've stayed with whatever game they moved to. Ultimately, what we all hope for is balance I think.

Hurika · September 2016

Templar Class purge doesn't remove heal debuffs - leave the rest the same.
Reactive armor 5pc reduces SELF healing by 35% (to match the damage reduction of 35% it grants) while the buff is active

That's all I'd change.

Though it would be interesting to see what people would say if they changed Vigor to clense 5 negative effects. (yes I know, big short hot vs smaller longer hot - not quite the same).

Rikumaru · September 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

THIS x1,000,000!!!!! When my Dk's combo that costs around 10k magicka is negated and countered by a skill that costs 2,800...#balanced

And no i don't think Cleanse should be removed. But there should be SOME kind of skill associated with an ability that is a literal crutch that can be spammed with no consequence.

Just to make something clear, the same could be said of DK Flapping, Templar Cleansing (replicatable by an alliance war skill), NB Cloak, and Sorcerer Streak. You choose to call it a 'crutch' I call it a particular focus in competency. Lets be clear here, by design it was fairly clear early on that Templars were meant to be the Anti-DK. In like kind, DK's were meant to be the anti-Sorcerer. I could carry on and explain why this is so but I think much of the way the classes were designed make this fairly clear. Admittedly, some changes have come upon the game (like the shift from Blinding Flashes to Radiant).

Streak, cloak and dk wings have all been nerfed heavily. Cloak and dk wings don't even work correctly atm as they are bugged. Ritual provides major mending, a decent AoE HoT, 30% snare, group cleanse and 5 cleanses for yourself for 2.8k magicka. In my opinion thats pretty OP.

Minno · September 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

1) change RD to just an execute. Match max range of trials.
2) change solar barrage to a similar ranged morph of dark flare except with out the empower. Compensate removal of damage and add an undodgable component.
3) reduce BOL initial health. Increase low heal heal bonus to compensate.
4) put purge on percentage of heals/dmg done (5 neg effects still removed) Remove purge from alliance war. Rescale dots to ensure effective use but not completely OP.
5) reduce sharpened stats. Armor should have more viability against crazy stam dmg and require dynamic play against.

I'll just respond to your 2nd point. I don't think that Solar Barrage should be undone as a skill just because it has been a terrible skill for years. It would in my opinion make far more sense if this skill might afford a snare and a small DoT. It needs a reason to exist, and the strange way it Empowers seems quite odd for its obvious melee focus. I'm not entirely sure how the Empower was meant to work with the class. In the current phase of the game does one Barrage than Reflecting Light? RD? Sweeps? It seems a very odd design choice, and I would have preferred to see a snare or debuff tied to the skill, than a single use buff.

I agree solar barrage shouldn't have to disappear from the toolkit. But it does have too many negatives:
1) it's only a couple hundred Magicka above jabs, but only does roughly 1.5k total (even less of facing heavy armor/high cp.
2) the empower does not match the design. It's clear it was meant to provide a Magicka version of impulse, but doesn't have the utility

.
3) the dmg is less than or equal to vampires bane. This alone violates the "Melee should do more dmg" intent that other classes have.

It would be great if the skill could perform uniquely or at least have a function in cyro. I also do believe dodge roll should not get a nerf but additional counters similar to how shields/block have had revisions. So far ESO had made channels the defacto counter, except it exists only under one class. So it could be a great balance if each class could receive a unique channel counter (and not soul assault .)

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2016

Rikumaru wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

THIS x1,000,000!!!!! When my Dk's combo that costs around 10k magicka is negated and countered by a skill that costs 2,800...#balanced

And no i don't think Cleanse should be removed. But there should be SOME kind of skill associated with an ability that is a literal crutch that can be spammed with no consequence.

Just to make something clear, the same could be said of DK Flapping, Templar Cleansing (replicatable by an alliance war skill), NB Cloak, and Sorcerer Streak. You choose to call it a 'crutch' I call it a particular focus in competency. Lets be clear here, by design it was fairly clear early on that Templars were meant to be the Anti-DK. In like kind, DK's were meant to be the anti-Sorcerer. I could carry on and explain why this is so but I think much of the way the classes were designed make this fairly clear. Admittedly, some changes have come upon the game (like the shift from Blinding Flashes to Radiant).

Streak, cloak and dk wings have all been nerfed heavily. Cloak and dk wings don't even work correctly atm as they are bugged. Ritual provides major mending, a decent AoE HoT, 30% snare, group cleanse and 5 cleanses for yourself for 2.8k magicka. In my opinion thats pretty OP.

In response, the class has no proper cc to speak of. You have to look at the class as a whole. I mostly play Nightblades lately, but I've always really liked them and the content the game developers keep releasing seems to be geared toward them. Most NIghtblade abilities have multiple benefits and components for using them, sometimes 4 or 5 benefits. Templar doesn't tend to do this although the Cleanse does. Cleanse enforces the issue that Templars are sluggish, can't escape, and have no cc to grab their enemies to speak of. You really need to look at the gestalt of what the developers are trying to do, and I believe this was the means by which they are building the 'House'. One also ought to mention the other version of the skill does a DoT and only clears 2 negative effects. Lets get real though, with poisons you can easily stack well over 5 debuffs in a second - and I'm not sure the prioritization is so wonderful. In a manner of full disclosure my time playing Templar has been primarily as a Stamplar and Tankplar (stamina oriented). Those characters also predate the era of Templar supposedly being OP, to a time when frankly they were horrible. I do now have a max level magplar now, but then again I have a mag/stam of everything.

At any regard the point isn't about the specifics about grand design intents of the classes. You can complain a particular skill is 'strong' or 'a crutch' but ultimately all of the classes that have certain skills which focus on their primary competency. I think that is the whole point of classes. You will note that I have been against Classes since the beginning, but if you're going to have them this will be the end result.

thankyourat · September 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

I think that is more to do with the fact Cloak did a lot more than purge. I might also add Cloak still stops DoT ticks while it is activated, and if you're a magblade you can keep the cloak running indefinitely. I don't think your example is a very good one. Efficient Purge is quite often a much better choice. The Mazzatun Haj Mota (gigantic turtle) is a good example of this.

The Templar purge also grants major mending correct? That's alot better than cloak has ever been. You can't Just stay cloaked in a fight either because if you are cloaked you aren't doing damage

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

SadieJoan wrote: »

I am so fed up of people picking on Templars, simply for being the only magicka class that can stand their ground against OP stamina sheep builds. I have started to play magicka sorcerer in pvp allot now, because I am so fed up with people bitching at me if I beat them with my templar (for some reason its OK to kill them when I play sorcerer ) which speaks volumes in itself, if stamtards are so horrified that they can be beaten by a magicka class, or cannot kill that magicka class in 2 hits, that they have to constantly complain about it

Once templar has been all but destroyed by the hoard of stamina nbs, dks and sorcerers (I never see stamina templars in pvp, I think they are extinct) the small percentage of people who refused to give up the way that they enjoy playing to join the stamtard army will have nothing left. I already know people who don't play the game anymore because the gap between stamina and magicka is so ridiculous now that they cannot compete and do not want to be forced into playing magicka templar or stamina anything in order to be competitive.

And as for magicka templar being boring, well, I suppose that comes down to personal preference, mine being that I can think of nothing more boring that playing stamina, and so never will succumb to the 'meta'

Just to be fair here, I know quite a few people who left the game for the same reason but in reverse: Stamina was so horrible, and Magic was soo good that they ultimately left the game. Many of those people I do not see logging back in, presumably because they've stayed with whatever game they moved to. Ultimately, what we all hope for is balance I think.

That's was only up until console release stamina has always been good on console since day 1 with magicka sorc being op and the rest of the classes being balanced, with mag dk and stam sorc being bad. So I'm confused why all stamina got a buff when they never really needed one maybe stam sorc needed it but why not just buff stam sorc instead of buffing all stamina classes. Maybe it was PvE related I don't know

Drdeath20 · September 2016

Rikumaru wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

THIS x1,000,000!!!!! When my Dk's combo that costs around 10k magicka is negated and countered by a skill that costs 2,800...#balanced

And no i don't think Cleanse should be removed. But there should be SOME kind of skill associated with an ability that is a literal crutch that can be spammed with no consequence.

Just to make something clear, the same could be said of DK Flapping, Templar Cleansing (replicatable by an alliance war skill), NB Cloak, and Sorcerer Streak. You choose to call it a 'crutch' I call it a particular focus in competency. Lets be clear here, by design it was fairly clear early on that Templars were meant to be the Anti-DK. In like kind, DK's were meant to be the anti-Sorcerer. I could carry on and explain why this is so but I think much of the way the classes were designed make this fairly clear. Admittedly, some changes have come upon the game (like the shift from Blinding Flashes to Radiant).

Streak, cloak and dk wings have all been nerfed heavily. Cloak and dk wings don't even work correctly atm as they are bugged. Ritual provides major mending, a decent AoE HoT, 30% snare, group cleanse and 5 cleanses for yourself for 2.8k magicka. In my opinion thats pretty OP.

Yet alot of magplars run efficient purge bcz of the 10% increase in magicka recovery and no lingering glowing circle giving away your position.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

I think that is more to do with the fact Cloak did a lot more than purge. I might also add Cloak still stops DoT ticks while it is activated, and if you're a magblade you can keep the cloak running indefinitely. I don't think your example is a very good one. Efficient Purge is quite often a much better choice. The Mazzatun Haj Mota (gigantic turtle) is a good example of this.

The Templar purge also grants major mending correct? That's alot better than cloak has ever been. You can't Just stay cloaked in a fight either because if you are cloaked you aren't doing damage

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

SadieJoan wrote: »

I am so fed up of people picking on Templars, simply for being the only magicka class that can stand their ground against OP stamina sheep builds. I have started to play magicka sorcerer in pvp allot now, because I am so fed up with people bitching at me if I beat them with my templar (for some reason its OK to kill them when I play sorcerer ) which speaks volumes in itself, if stamtards are so horrified that they can be beaten by a magicka class, or cannot kill that magicka class in 2 hits, that they have to constantly complain about it

Once templar has been all but destroyed by the hoard of stamina nbs, dks and sorcerers (I never see stamina templars in pvp, I think they are extinct) the small percentage of people who refused to give up the way that they enjoy playing to join the stamtard army will have nothing left. I already know people who don't play the game anymore because the gap between stamina and magicka is so ridiculous now that they cannot compete and do not want to be forced into playing magicka templar or stamina anything in order to be competitive.

And as for magicka templar being boring, well, I suppose that comes down to personal preference, mine being that I can think of nothing more boring that playing stamina, and so never will succumb to the 'meta'

Just to be fair here, I know quite a few people who left the game for the same reason but in reverse: Stamina was so horrible, and Magic was soo good that they ultimately left the game. Many of those people I do not see logging back in, presumably because they've stayed with whatever game they moved to. Ultimately, what we all hope for is balance I think.

That's was only up until console release stamina has always been good on console since day 1 with magicka sorc being op and the rest of the classes being balanced, with mag dk and stam sorc being bad. So I'm confused why all stamina got a buff when they never really needed one maybe stam sorc needed it but why not just buff stam sorc instead of buffing all stamina classes. Maybe it was PvE related I don't know

In your response to my point about Mazzatun I think you're misunderstanding why I brought up the topic. Cleansing is not sufficient to the task unless the tank is a Templar and uses it for himself. If your healer is a Templar there are two problems with him cleansing the Turtle-bite using cleansing. Firstly, that Templar will need to be close enough to the tank that it can be synergized, and secondly it is very unlikely that Tank will be able to synergize in time to survive. Efficient purge will guarantee that he is safely removed from the debuff, and since MOST tanks are DK, I think this is an important consideration.
This is not the only mechanic in the game like this but I was using this point to showcase why Cleansing is both better and worse than Efficient Purge (I don't think the other version of purge is worth mentioning due to its costs, but then again most people don't use the damage dealing cleansing either).

The issue that cleansing ritual also grants major mending is really pointless. Obsidian shield also does this while also granting the Dk Stamina, applying a shield to the whole team, and generating ultimate (which in turn feeds back into one's resources). Do I argue that Obsidian Shield is overpowered and should be destroyed? Absolutely not! Nor am I claiming that the multitude of Nightblade skills with all their synergies and double (or quadruple duty) are a bad thing. Cloak does more than hide the Nightblade, it also boosts crit damage, stealth damage, provides an armor effect, boosts health, etc. I could then go on to discuss how most of the skills in the Nightblade line boost the nightblade. I think Nightblade is the perfect class because I personally feel pulled between a large number of skills with this class, whereas with other classes you tend to find many skills are throwaway, and many are must haves.

My point regarding Stamina Vs. Magic debate here was simply to clarify that it doesn't solve this debate. Stamina vs. Magic has been through cycles. Heavy Armor has been mostly terrible up until recent days. Templar was mostly awful up until recent times (in terms of the game's life and history). I simply think it bears noting that subtle changes to the game can upend the balance of everything, and I think kneejerk considerations are a bad idea. I'm very much against the proliferation of overpowered sets (I don't think they should exist honestly) and I don't see how they really bring value to the game. This is a vestigial remnant of inferior MMO's of yesteryear and I wish gaming companies would abandon these notions. Content should be played for reasons other than hopping on the hamster wheel to get a treat.

I am trying to offer a balanced view in the discussion. The designers have to be very careful about what they change when a class is working. The greater problems arise where a class is not functioning properly.

Edit: I'd also like to note that the Templar class still has quite a few skills that are either pointless or passives that don't need to be slotted. This is in large part because they've 'made the class balanced'. Eclipse is still a junk skill more or less, and will likely remain that way - eclipse has not been good since cc immunity was added to the game. In a pvp perspective I would say the same of Shards, though shards are fantastic for the Templar healer in pve. The aedric spear charge and all of its morphs are still buggy (I know because of recent gameplay with a Magplar). Ambush is by far the best gap closer in the game (and I am not proposing it be nerfed). Other classes have similar issues with skunky skills. Nightblade really doesn't have this problem. There are wonderful passives for Nightblade no matter what skill you choose to slot. The class has great regeneration, wonderful bonuses to healing, magic maximum, health maximum, crits, you name it. Other class passives tend to funnel you down a particular route that tell you 'these are the skills' if you are magic or stamina. I personally feel that is the bigger problem. It should be difficult to pick what you want on your bar.

Drdeath20 · September 2016

Kill templars in PVE bcz when mag DKs duel them it ends in a draw! Great argument!

Was just run over in less than 3 seconds to a stam user about 20 times today but apparently duelling a mag dk is the bench mark.

White wabbit · September 2016

People moaned about Breah of life ! And it got nerfed .
People are moaning about Rd now doubt that will get nerfed
But hey no people want to take the nerf hammer even more to Templars so much that they will be extinct by the time everyone has their way , and yet Stamina gets even stronger let's just remove all skills from every class and just go around slapping each other

Dredlord · September 2016

Moglijuana wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

The class purge needs to go. I find it funny that cloak was op because it purged dots so it got nerfed, but they added an ability that purges dots. That's my main complaint with the class

THIS x1,000,000!!!!! When my Dk's combo that costs around 10k magicka is negated and countered by a skill that costs 2,800...#balanced

And no i don't think Cleanse should be removed. But there should be SOME kind of skill associated with an ability that is a literal crutch that can be spammed with no consequence.

Im sorry did you all of a sudden start talking about flappy wings in your last sentence?

Just wanted to clarify

idk · September 2016

White wabbit wrote: »

People moaned about Breah of life ! And it got nerfed .
People are moaning about Rd now doubt that will get nerfed
But hey no people want to take the nerf hammer even more to Templars so much that they will be extinct by the time everyone has their way , and yet Stamina gets even stronger let's just remove all skills from every class and just go around slapping each other

I had a guildie that played a magsorc. He complained about DKs, Templars and NBs all the time.

Except when he played his NB, he then complained about DKs, Templars and Sorcs.

Funny how that works. LOL

Khaos_Bane · September 2016

When NB and DK QQ @Wrobel assaults Sorc and Temp with nerfs. Some of you guys need to L2P instead of @Wrobel making it easy for you through constant nerfs.

Khaos_Bane · September 2016

White wabbit wrote: »

People moaned about Breah of life ! And it got nerfed .
People are moaning about Rd now doubt that will get nerfed
But hey no people want to take the nerf hammer even more to Templars so much that they will be extinct by the time everyone has their way , and yet Stamina gets even stronger let's just remove all skills from every class and just go around slapping each other

More like lets remove all MAG skills from Temp and Sorc and give them to the NB DK gimp players.

Reykice · September 2016

mr1sho wrote: »

People keep trying to get Nightblade class Nerf more but in reality Templars have taken over it's ridiculous how they can spam heals with no cool down and not mention the Jesus beam from across the map Templars should be Nerf ! All I see is hordes of Templars

That's right Templars I'm calling you out lol

The Magicka Templar is pretty much the lowest dps combo right now... yes they are good at healing i guess they are supposed to be. Jesus beam is also a bad spell to use if the target is above 40% or so... if anyone is using it while you are 100% laugh. If 5 people attack you and then one uses it you might die from it... but well its 5 people attacking you.

I guess they want them to be good at healing anyway, taking that away will just make them worst dps and bad at healing lol.

KingYogi415 · September 2016

Remember guys this game is balanced around AvA.

Take a look at magic dks and sorcs.

Being able to root an entire zerg in a negate is insanely OP.

Stop pointing your pitchforks at templars.

FearlessOne_2014 · September 2016

SadieJoan wrote: »

I am so fed up of people picking on Templars, simply for being the only magicka class that can stand their ground against OP stamina sheep builds. I have started to play magicka sorcerer in pvp allot now, because I am so fed up with people bitching at me if I beat them with my templar (for some reason its OK to kill them when I play sorcerer ) which speaks volumes in itself, if stamtards are so horrified that they can be beaten by a magicka class, or cannot kill that magicka class in 2 hits, that they have to constantly complain about it

Once templar has been all but destroyed by the hoard of stamina nbs, dks and sorcerers (I never see stamina templars in pvp, I think they are extinct) the small percentage of people who refused to give up the way that they enjoy playing to join the stamtard army will have nothing left. I already know people who don't play the game anymore because the gap between stamina and magicka is so ridiculous now that they cannot compete and do not want to be forced into playing magicka templar or stamina anything in order to be competitive.

And as for magicka templar being boring, well, I suppose that comes down to personal preference, mine being that I can think of nothing more boring that playing stamina, and so never will succumb to the 'meta'

Yup I for one have notice a huge decrease in the time I play ESO now. Because of how the devs keep widen the gap between magicka and stamina. Went from playing 5 plus hours a day spending loads USD monthly. To just spending maybe 3 to 5 hours a week now. With a six month sub I will not be renewing in 2 days.

Funny thing is tho in order to make up the sales they used to get from me. They'd have to rope in at least 5 or more sword and bow loving gamers to play their game just to hope to break even. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only magicka based player either that is. Just this unhappy that he has to go.

@ZOS_GinaBruno thank you from putting forward that broken stamina meta is here to say. (

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

For the most part, yes. It's unlikely we'll be making any additional changes to the Weapon Ultimates, barring any outstanding bugs.

) As a human being I do really appreciate the heads up. Looks like that 3 to 6 month break will be happening sooner then later. Who knows I might just be permanently go away. If Star Citizen is close to as good as they have made it out to be. Other then that I'll just be logging in to finish my last 11 mount training on my account, and my 9th trait research timers. Cya for trials and Cyrodiil maybe in 3 to 6 months.

Bobby_V_Rockit · September 2016

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Stam sorcs are the meta, but i do agree with @thankyourat, we nightblades lost our cloak purge, templars also need to lose their purge or at least you should not be able to purge ultimates.

But people constantly *** about how hard stamsorcs are to play effectively, I got flamed hard for trying to stamsorc a year ago when I started playing, with the general "your doing it wrong!" "You cant play stam, your a magicka class!" type BS.

Templars are fun to watch though. Its like watching a really angry group of Chihuahuas attack a wolf who just sits there and doesnt care.

icontrive · September 2016

As a mageblade....if I get into a 2v1 with 2 half-way decent Templars, I will not be able to win. The healing is too strong. Granted they won't be able to kill me unless I make a mistake, but where is the fun in that?

mdylan2013 · September 2016

icontrive wrote: »

As a mageblade....if I get into a 2v1 with 2 half-way decent Templars, I will not be able to win. The healing is too strong. Granted they won't be able to kill me unless I make a mistake, but where is the fun in that?

so Templars are OP because two of them could kill one person? That makes little sense.