After nearly two years, it's about time to change staff mechanics

Rykmaar · September 2016

Contraptions wrote: »

There were some suggestions I saw to make staves/bows/2 handers count for 2 pieces in a set. It's a small step that they could take to reduce the disparity between dual wield and everything else. One extra set bonus is nothing to sneeze at.

Overall, I agree with your posts OP. While stam was really underperforming when the game launched, we've seen how the game has changed to the point where stam weapons are now the best (even for magicka builds). As someone who's been running mag sorc since the beginning I can only hope balance will be achieved soon.

I feel ESO needs balance patches way more often. We simply cannot afford to wait 3 to 6 months for skills or sets to be tweaked or fixed. ZOS, you are logging combat data while we play, so why don't you use it? Give us dev updates that state possible changes that you may be making soon, and provide data you have logged to prove your point. Engage us on the forums much more regularly to ask for suggestions or comments on upcoming balancing changes. Do this not just when PTS is testing the next big update but every two weeks or so. Help us help you make the game better.

I actually think the game will be more balanced with more classes and skill line/weapon types. Right now, destruction staff has to fill the role of magicka dps in all situations. Ranged. Melee. PVE and PVP. This becomes incredibly hard to design for. Skills which are good in PVE, such as ground based DOTs like Wall, become less effective or are downright useless in PVP. By adding more weapons which can fill more niches I feel there will be more flexibility. Perhaps illusion, alteration, conjuration and mysticism staves could be added? Then the variety of stam vs magicka weapons would be more even.

I feel that that extraordinarily long time between balance fixes has a negative effect on this game, and I've felt that for a long time. I know there are loads of people clamoring about how fine the game is doing, but with all of the balance issues and seemingly glaring and nonsensical decisions being made regarding new sets, changes to gameplay, etc, I don't think the future is bright.

I know development cycles are limited. I know that there may be personnel restrictions for some of these things. But the fact of the matter is, the rug is going to be pulled out from under this game when things like this persist. Part of me wonders whether they care -- I mean, if they're getting new people into the game as they say they are, maybe the exodus of old players is offset by the influx of new players. I'd like to think that's not the case, but I haven't seen any evidence that the developers actually understand the thoughts and concerns of magicka players other than "balance patch is coming." Saying that doesn't mean anything when players have seen similar patches come and go with more questions than answers as a result.

This thread has gone on for a while discussing various ideas for addressing the lack of variety, boring gameplay, and simply lackluster choices that magicka classes have at their disposal nowadays and offered some ideas for addressing them -- namely in the way of changing staff mechanics. I hope that people continue discussing this topic here and elsewhere in the forums to keep this conversation going and in the minds of developers.

-staff mechanics need to change.
-staves need to be split into three distinct weapons.
-weapon abilities need to be changed to be interesting and unique -- right now they are boring.
-resto staves heal less than rally+vigor (stamina imbalance).
-resto staves don't allow a healer to keep themselves alive in PvP.
-magicka players have poor survivability in PvP : stamina dodge rolling for days and doing more damage, magicka can only do two rolls before dying.
-light armor passives need to be scrapped and redesigned.
-individual classes have their own magicka gameplay problems ('cept you templars out there, enjoy it while it lasts:)
-weapon choices for magicka classes are boring; need more variety/more weapons.
-the list goes on and on...

This is just a sampling of issues that have come up, please keep the conversation going.

dsalter · September 2016

i just want to say i really hope a dev pops in and atleast say's they'v read it, bonus if they say they'll consider it but i just want them to know staffs are bottom of the chain atm

Vangy · September 2016

As I see it, in PvE;

A newly made mag toon in crafted gear has greater DPS than a generic stam toon in crafted gear. VO 5 piece + maelstrom daggers are what accounts for the huge DPS gap between mag and stam. Yes stam needs to do more DPS as they are melee in PvE (the whole gap closer thing dosent hold weight here cos its PvE not PvP and being in melee range is far more dangerous in a lot of mechanics). The problem is, mag needs an awesome 5 piece like VO and MA staves need a huge buff to be competitive with MA one handers. Apart from that, nth much else needs to change in PvE.

For PvP,
I mainly play a templar mag and a magbomblade in PvP for magicka so I think I have no say. I do use my magDK in duels but thats about it. All 3 of these classes perform their chosen roles in PvP very well and I cant say I find my stamNB or stamDK to surpass them in their chosen roles. Like my magblade is the best bomber out of my toons and my magPlar is the best tanky healer in my toons and my magDK is my best dueller. StamDK comes very close to my magDK but I feel more comfortable on my magDK. I think mag might need a buff in open world PvP due to the huge amount of gankinator blades roaming around with viper veli cheese.

Mettaricana · September 2016

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Well if it were a new melee focused magicka line some sorcerers would like it I'm pretty sure... but only if it were any damned good. Maybe a conjured / bound blade line with a decent set of abilities could work. What you'd use would be a soul gem talisman which would form the blade when equipped. Something along those lines anyway?

Wouldn't change, that range magican has a lot less DPS than an Melee figher. Which is not needed... not by this amount!

Silly idea

Bound weapons: skill line

first skill

Bound weapons: grants minor sorcery to character passively and all heavy attacks with melee weapons restore magicka instead of stamina while active.

Aedric weapon morph: grants minor sorcery all heavy attacks restore magicka instead of stamina. Increases dmg of magicka based skills used at closer range.

Daedric weapon morph: grants minor brutality instead heavy attacks restore 8% dmg back as health

Throw some more ideas

Lava_Croft · September 2016

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that ZOS cares for more than luring in new players, have them spend some Crowns and move on to the next new game after a few months.

NBrookus · September 2016

Rykmaar wrote: »

I really hope your, and other, feedback will get listened to @Joy_Division , but as with the magicka DK. I don't think they care or even understand what the problem is.

This is the conclusion I've come to. Numerous times players have posted extremely well thought out critiques and suggested changes and they are ignored.

I went on PTS, read the patch notes... and ZOS has completely jumped the shark. The "fix" to the destro ult was perhaps even more laughable than the original concept. Barring seeing some major changes in the patch notes for PTS, at a minimum I am sitting out update 12 entirely. Which stam player's armor set procs first is not my idea of fun PvP, nor is hiding in a zerg.

Sub cancelled; on to other games. If they make significant steps in the right direction toward balance in U13, I'll be back.

Rykmaar · September 2016

From the AMA yesterday:

[–]ZOS_eWrobel 5 points 14 hours ago
Yeah we want to look at improving the destruction staff and making the play styles of fire/frost/shock more distinct.
With the 5 piece bonus that's not just a magicka issue, also pertains to bows and 2h. We are aware of the discrepancy in set bonuses between weapon types and have been looking into possible solutions.

I don't know what the make of that, but it's got my attention.
-unique playstyle for elements (not just colors of abilities)
-solution for two slot weapons not giving 5pc bonuses

@Wrobel could you elaborate on this a little more?

Special_Bradley · September 2016

@Joy_Division This brought a tear to my eye, much respect for you for putting the effort in this Thread

Birdovic · September 2016

Very well written!
That said, we need ideas for the Staff Ults.

For Destro, I thought about some ideas:

Single Target: unmorphed
- Cost: 110 ult

Morph 1:
- Costs: 110 Ult
- Range: 22m
- Ignores Spellres
- has Elemental Bonuses (look below)
-
Morph 2:
- Cheaper (90 Ult)
- has higher range (28m)
- has Elemental Bonuses (look below)

The Elemental Bonuses (These happen on activation, depending on the type of staff equipped)

"Fires of Oblivion":
- this new effect deals +20% dmg and inflicts a Burn DoT for 8 seconds on the target hit, every second.
- This Dot prevents enemies from stealthing.

"Freeze Solid": this new effect inflicts a 2.5sec long, unbreakable immobilize and a small Frost DoT every 0,5 sec, for 5 seconds.
- While a frost staff is equipped, increase Shield Abilities Strengths on activation by 10% and durations by 25%.

"electrifying Touch":
- this new effect stuns the main target for 2 seconds and hits 2 additional targets for 80% Dmg.
- While a Shock staff is equipped, increase Spell Critical Hit Rate by 10%.

Izaki · September 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not disagreeing with people on this thread

That aside there seem to be some issues with regards to balance which are being ignored here.

Staffs are RANGED and thus are inherently less risky to use. It's easier to both avoid damage and to finish a fight with a ranged weapon, and as such I would EXPECT them to have lower DPS.

Also, MOST class skills are magika based, so the staff skill lines are complimented by MOST class skills, while stamina based weapons are pretty much stand alone with only a FEW class skills available at the same power level.

Can this discussion acknowledge that the staff skill lines are intended to supplement the class skills and as such look at them as primary support skill lines?

When using stamina builds you are expected to mostly use the weapon skills for your spammable dps. The only exception I can think of is the nightblade suprise attack, but even there rapid strikes has higher dps.

Once again, I'm not in any way saying that stamina and magi are playing on an even battlefield at the moment, or that there are not balance issues.
All I am saying is that staffs play a very different role than the stamina weapons in how they function with the rest of the class and should not be looked at in isolation, because in isolation staff skills will be inferior to weapon skills BY DESIGN.

The ultimate problem I have with this argument is that the difference between staves and the other 4 skills in the game is nearly 15k dps if you're set up correctly. I'm not convinced that melee needs 15k difference from ranged.

Furthermore, the magicka DK is a melee as well and using anything but a staff would be a massive dps loss for them.

is this difference primarily from the basic diff between staff and swords?
Is this primarily from the difference betweEn STA and MAG?
Is this primarily due to the diff between say certain specific weapons - like say DW maelstrom daggers or swords?

Any idea what the DPS diff would be between staff wielding sorc vs dagger wielding stam sorc or staff wielding magblade vs dagger wielding stamblade if all wore generic purple armor with similar enchants? Sub in 2h for DW dagger if you want.

is that difference gonna run 15K?

If not, then maybe the 15k diff is not "bad staff mechanics" but imbalanced sets and other gear choices.

The best parse I've seen dual wielding stamina sorcerer will all BiS gear (perfect traits, etc.) was 49k. The best parse I've seen from a staff user magicka sorcerer without all BiS (1 crappy trait and no vMA staff) was 48.5k DPS.
So most people who say that mage can't even get close to stamina DPS output just need L2P. Its as simple as that. If Streak One can do it, then everyone can. You don't pull almost 50k DPS on a stamina sorcerer just by picking up vMA daggers in sharpened, Vicious Ophidian and craft yourself some TBS, you actually gotta practice the rotation and get it done perfectly. Its the same thing for magicka sorcerers. You don't just farm up Scathing Mage, Infallible Aether, Nerien'eth and a sharp vMA staff and pull 50k DPS. You go and practice your rotation on mammoths in Wrothgar, then you practice on Bloodspawn and then you perfect it in trials.
I main 2 sorcerers. 1 magicka (my first character and my favorite to this day) and 1 stamina who I made after I reached VR16 on my mage sorc. I don't pull 50k DPS (not yet) because I don't have too much time to play. I still do trials and endgame content with my guilds and they are never complaining about my characters. If I'm on my mage they don't tell me "get on your stam sorc to do good or GTFO". Why? Because magicka has its benefits over stamina and vice versa.
I'm aware that there is an imbalance between magicka and stamina. But the difference is far from 15K. If you compare each class' magicka and stamina specs, the DPS is pretty close actually. I mean there are templars pulling 80k ticks on Radiant Oppresion, there are 55k Overloads zapping around, bloody 50k Meteors with 70k DoTs everywhere in trials, 70k Assassin's Wills being shot. Obviously stamina can pull crazy numbers like that too. Like I said, yes there is an imbalance but its not as big as people make it out to be, with just one exception to the rule: the only thing that kinda got out of hand is Stamina DK's 58.7k DPS. And sorcerers (mage and stam) are the class that comes closest behind stamina DKs are pulling 10k less. But thats a different problem. Its got nothing to do with the way staves function. Its solely a stamina DK thing. Why? Because they have the tools to do it: Standard of Might, Venom Claw, etc.

Bottom line is, please ZOS do review the way staves work, please review a few Magicka Sorcs skills, please review Magicka DKs competitiveness in PvP, please make magicka great again, please review the fact that Stamina DKs are way in front of all other classes in terms of DPS. But don't just nerf all stamina classes to the ground, cause that's a lazy way to do it.

TheHsN · September 2016

class balance will not be until UPDATE 13..

really we need to wait 4 months more???!!!

@Wrobel we actually want to play this game pls can u make ur job and make it playable in this patch pls...work 1 or 2 hours more in a day. And make the balance in this patch ok...

Lava_Croft · September 2016

TheHsN wrote: »

class balance will not be until UPDATE 13..

really we need to wait 4 months more???!!!

@Wrobel we actually want to play this game pls can u make ur job and make it playable in this patch pls...work 1 or 2 hours more in a day. And make the balance in this patch ok...

Balance patches have no direct financial benefit for ZOS. They gotta add at least two whole dungeons.

Rykmaar · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

class balance will not be until UPDATE 13..

really we need to wait 4 months more???!!!

@Wrobel we actually want to play this game pls can u make ur job and make it playable in this patch pls...work 1 or 2 hours more in a day. And make the balance in this patch ok...

Balance patches have no direct financial benefit for ZOS. They gotta add at least two whole dungeons.

You're right about that. No impact will be had unless people vote with their wallet.

Dracane · September 2016

I wish, staff light and heavy attacks would apply a bonus, to make each element a bit more unique.

Like fire light and heavy attacks, always apply a small Damage over time effect.
Frost light and heavy attacks always snare the target by 30% for 3 seconds-
Lightning light and heavy attacks always apply minor breach, decreasing the targets spell resistance by 1320 for 5 seconds (though I believe, they have increase minor breach in the meantime)

All these effects are independant from what burning, chill and concussion status effects do.

Birdovic · September 2016

Dracane wrote: »

I wish, staff light and heavy attacks would apply a bonus, to make each element a bit more unique.

Like fire light and heavy attacks, always apply a small Damage over time effect.
Frost light and heavy attacks always snare the target by 30% for 3 seconds-
Lightning light and heavy attacks always apply minor breach, decreasing the targets spell resistance by 1320 for 5 seconds (though I believe, they have increase minor breach in the meantime)

All these effects are independant from what burning, chill and concussion status effects do.

Thats the funny part. Its not even THAT hard to make the elements play and feel different.
You know, the secondary effects are still what should define the Destro Staves in my opinion, they need to be reworked.

The Flame Destro one is boring but atleast effective.
To make it feel different in Gameplay, this should receive a little update though. Like
- light attacks: 20% faster
- fully charged heavy attack: 20% stronger and guaranteed Fire Dot which reduces Spellresistance by X for Y seconds

The Frost Destro is easily the worst, and I think it needs the most love compared to Fire and Shock (both are further supported by DK or Sorc Passives, Sets being the only way to improve Frost to an equally good Damage type):
- light attacks: a guaranteed 20% slow for 2 seconds
- fully charged heavy attacks: a 40% slow for 2 seconds and a Frost Dmg Dot with many Procs (to proc Frost Dmg based Sets more often). Also reduces Stamina Recovery by X for Y Seconds

The Shock Destro heavy attack is my favourite out of these 3, it provides a unique effect(multiple hits) and is no Projectile, giving it other benefits like bypassing DK scales. In short: It feels unique/different gameplay wise.

The only ideas I have for Shock are:
- preventing the enemy from Stealthing ...
- reducing Spellresistance by X ... (great combo with timed procs of Abilities)
- reducing healing received by X...
- reducing Magicka Rec by X ...
...while channeling, something like that.

Minalan · September 2016

I'd be happy if they just fixed pulsar, destructive reach and touch so that people have a reason to use something other than just crushing shock..

Reduce the costs on those abilities some and increase the damage slightly.

Rykmaar · September 2016

They did say that they're going to make them more unique, but I'm afraid Wrobel is just going to change numbers and not the actual abilities or related affects at all. That's boring af, and staves are already boring af.

Birdovic · September 2016

And the Destro Ulti wont be changed. So nope, still no real reason to use one..