After nearly two years, it's about time to change staff mechanics

Khydan · September 2016

Make Destro Staff Great Again!

colbydotcom · September 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

using a destruction means you're basically settling for the last person at the bar.

It's funny because it's true.

GCVDJ11T · September 2016

@Joy_Division

Very well written post. We normally test for days when new content comes out on the PTS. I was so disappointed and unhappy with the new sets and helms boosting only stamina, the stealth nerf (light staff) and destro/resto worthless ultimates that I went back to live.

I have played a magicka nightblade since beta. She is my main and frankly what I want to play. However I run end game progression raids and she is no longer viable as I pull 50K dps on my stam dk and only 30K dps on her.

I really was expecting the destro ult to give her a boost and maybe some new sets to help close that gap. It honestly makes me sad knowing that I cannot justify bringing her over my stam toons.

SwaminoNowlino · September 2016

Nifty idea to help the destro staff ulti that is in line with something the other ultis provide is to eliminate the cost of abilities cast on enemies inside the aoe. Sort of like an ele drain/force siphon setup. Or make it to where you take significantly reduced damage from anyone inside it, kind of like nova on steroids. Those can be the two morphs actually. Just an idea.

Rykmaar · September 2016

@Joy_Division

Another day, another well made rebuttal. Thanks for doing this thread.

The fact of the matter is that magicka players aren't asking for a stamina nerf, we're asking to be brought up to par so everyone can have fun playing this game. Right now, the fun factor is fading for magicka users, especially in PvP.

The bigger issue here is, as we've discussed, that magicka has 1) a lack of weapon choices that are effective, and 2) punished heavily in terms of survivability.

We cannot pretend that class abilities for magicka builds are enough. They are not. Sorcs don't have a spammable and DKs are forced into melee to do anything (and their spammable doesn't do enough damage to be worth taking on the SEVERE survivability risks).

What's more insulting to me is the logic that @Joy_Division mentioned; magicka needs to do less damage because they have a range advantage. Protip: We don't. Melee gap closer spam renders range a non factor.

Here's the thing though: That's okay with us. You guys need gap closers.

All we want are the tools to deal with that and, unfortunately, there are a lot of design choices that need to be addressed for balance to be better.

Light armor passives need to be revisited. Heavily.
Destruction staves need to be split into three distinct weapon lines or, if ZoS doesn't want to do that, you need to scrap and redesign skills.
If you don't split the staff line, you need to give magicka users other weapon alternatives. Please do not justify forcing magicka classes to use MELEE WEAPONS to increase spell power when there is no conceivable use for said weapons other than one solitary passive. Add new skill lines.
Resto staff users should be able to keep themselves alive using that weapon. The whole purpose is healing. Stamina classes with rally and vigor should not be able to outheal a resto staff. Right now, resto users can't keep themselves alive with just the staff. That new ultimate isn't changing that.

ZoS, you tell players that they should play their own way, but you've constructed obstacles to that yourselves. Right now, a player cannot play his or her way if they want to be effective. You've given stamina love. They needed that. But you left magicka in a cesspool.
I want to love this game. But when design decisions place such barriers in the way of enjoying this game as a magicka user -- which I am in every TES game -- that love is lost. You guys have the IP, please don't abuse it.

What gets me about all of this is that these glaring problems exist, major bugs and glitches exist, yet we get new items in the cash shop frequently, and we're going to get seasons in the shop. PvP doesn't even have seasons with unique stuff. Where are the priorities here?

Xvorg · September 2016

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Right on Joy.

1) The only mag users that were getting anywhere near competitive dps were shock staff users. They were still usually well behind the stam dps in their group and they only got this semi competitive dps in fights where there were some adds right at the boss to get some splash damage on. For the most part they also got this dps using the tripple proc from infal armor and vMA weapons combined (something I don't think was intended though I sure think the splash damage was). I have never seen a mag user doing anything else breaking 40k. I rarely see mag users break 30k. Stam users over 40k are the norm with the best ones doing over 50k. The norm is to see melee stam dps close to double ranged mag dps. Should I mention stam vs mag aoe here? Probably not since mag aoe is often lower than mag single target. It is a rare raid pull that I bother with AOE on. I figure it is more useful to single out the particularly bad baddies as a mag user since my aoe is crap anyway. As for pvp... Mag is so bad VD users are rare despite how incredible this set is. Your chances are just so low to actually kill somebody that the incredible proc is not worth it. VD is for siege machines and noobs praying for a lucky Jesus beam. The only dps factor that favored mag users was ultimate (power level, crit percent, secondary effects in bleed or wep power, skills, boss damage resistance, and gear, gear, gear favor stamina users). Guess we had to fix that.

2) Speaking of gear, Strength of Automation and light speaker, Lol. You realize right now stam users get a 15k dps increase from vMA weapons and mag users get less than 3k and that this is the biggest root cause of your balance problems in PvE. Your must also realize also that VO is an incredible stam set and that IA is a mag set that is only very marginally BIS, often, and more often with the shock staff splash change has to be worn by healers for the group boss debuff since there are no mag dps in group anymore, and most users don't even get a 5 peice strength buff from since the fully charged heavy thing is a huge dps loss for all flame users. Yet, you drop in a new BIS 5 peice dps set for stam users that will also be excellent in PVP and give mag users a healing set that healers can't even use since healing is about buffs / debuffs and not magnitude of heals. Raids will need healers in 5 infal / 5 spc with masters staff and 5 gossmer / 5 spc with masters staff. Literally no one who knows anything will wear light speaker.

3) Joy is right about all those staff abilities being crap. They are crap. Ironically, I remember a time when many were BIS. They are utter garbage now, make no mistake. The worst part is that some, force pulse/crushing shock, actually have to be used by some builds despite this because they have not much else to spam while their dot's tick. As for that wall of elements that all mag users have to use because it is a decent DOT. Even this does not well suit a mag build who's purpose is range and movement as the wall is small in size, intolerant of movement, and, worst of all, is far shorter in range than the rest of a ranged mag dp's suite therefore wall of elements hampering the entire purpose of the build.

4) Honestly, the lack of new good quest content coupled with the mag vs stam scaling issues has me down to playing once a week. I don't really like the ball up and leg hump the boss stam melee world. Things were much more fun in the lets actually try to avoid boss mechanics ranged times. I also refuse to spend the time in vMA to get the weapons that are a requirement for relevance, with all the traits out there, that is a fools errand as you could try all year with only a marginal chance of getting what you need. Right on Joy for your post. Sorry, ZOS, the trend line of balance and decision making in this game is pretty clear. Hope you eventually can get things together.

I'm sorry i just can't agree with you. You say that stamina DPS is always higher than mage, but thats a lie. When you look at Hodor and Beyond Infinity, most of their DPS is magicka. You see sorcs like YoloWizard and Streak One pull 48k DPS. Mashinate is a crazy nightblade too. I have a templar friend who's Radiant D consistently hits for 70-80k a tick. There are just examples. Also stamina DPS without vMSA weapons is not as good as magicka DPS, aside from Stamplars. The DPS in a correctly built raid group is more or less the same for mage and stam toons.

Automaton is also not BiS as it doesn't provide crit which is the base of all PvE DPS builds. With vMSA daggers/axes there comes a specific rotation and really you're exaggerating on the 15k DPS increase. Its big, but not that big.

Although I do agree on the fact that Force Pulse and all other destro abilities are s*** (aside from Wall), Force Pulse has many many benefits. Scathing Mage arguably the BiS magicka DPS set in the game and the best possible uptime comes from Force Pulse. Its not that bad to be fair, although a secondary effect other than the crap AoE is very welcome.

Wall of Elements is a very strong DoT. One of the best along with Liquid Lightning and Endless Hail. And really I don't know how you manage to position yourself to not make it hit the target. Its one of the largest ground places DoTs.

I agree with Joy, but what you say is just not true. You're making things sound waaay worse then they actually are.

To achieve strong DPS as magicka user (mDK) you need to: put a (strong)dot (burning embers), weave a light attack, cast WoE, cast talons/petrify, whip, whip, burning embers (to regain health) whip, whip, whip and finally go to the doctor to treat tha carpal tunnel you got.

As a stamina user you need crit charge, light attack, dizz swing and vigor... sometimes.

You have absolutely no idea how stamina DPS operates then. You use DW vMSA weaps or you're wasting your time doing stamina DPS (Templars are different). in between all your DoTs (poison injection, rending slashes, rearming etc.) you have to weave in Flurry + Light Attack. And you must keep in mind that every DoT must be refreshed as soon as it goes out. Oh and the ground AoEs must be refreshed too. The rotation ain't easy, especially without buff trackers (#console). Rearming Trap is also a b*tch to empower correctly, as it doesn't consume the Maelstrom enchantment and you have to use 1 Flurry to empower 2 skills. Its hard to get used to and not f*ck up.
I agree that there isn't much balance between magicka and stamina, but do not claim that stamina is easy mode. Try vMSA on a stam build. Even if you've got Flawless on a mage toon, you'll die a quite few times on your stam toon.

And what you can do as magicka user?? Right, with a vMSA weapon cast a ground dot clearly avoidable and pray for the enemy to stay there more than 5 secs.

kaithuzar · September 2016

@Joy_Division good post, one thing I wanted to add, don't forget that flame clench & crushing shock can easily be reflected such as by sword & board defensive posture ability (whichever morph reflects) XD
Just more reasons why I duel wield; which is why mag nb needs a buff as well

Xvorg · September 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Staves need the following:
1. To count as a double set bonus
2. To have separate skill lines per staff type - not a flavoured generic line (as suggested by a previous poster). These could be flavoured such that one was for short range, one for long range and one a mix. Meaning that magicka would have the approx equivalent of 2H, bow and DW in Fire, Frost, and Lightning.
3. Be of a higher base damage. This can be achieved with the above pt 2, as certain staff flavours would now be short ranged and hence higher damage assuming the reason their damage is low is range.
4. Be more interesting. They are incredibly dull, mostly because they are generic and lack and real feeling. They could be made farore interesting if each type had its own identity and abilities.

Staff, wand and scepter, being the staff the long range weapon, wand the middle range one, and the scepter a more melee oriented (like an elemental sword)

alephthiago · September 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

totally agree.

I think they need to create an off-hand set piece place holder for all 2 handed weapons, but especially staves.

There really should be a 3rd magicka weapon. I'd like to see 1 handed and talisman line ... and I want it to give options for evasion, expedition, and force that cost magicka. These buffs are NOT class specific for stam builds. Why are they for Magicka? Class restriction are pretty much exclusively a magicka issue, a long with sacrifice (equiping resto or being a vampire) to gain something you're class lacks.

Immovable should also have a magicka morph since hvy armor is NOT exclusive to stamina builds. Stam gets 2 armor line skills. Harness ... eff Harness when there's only 1 viable class shield in PVP for the average build.

Destro Ult should be burst all the way.

Like bound weapons?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/289397/give-us-more-weapon-skills-options-bound-weapons-and-bound-bow#latest

Mush55 · September 2016

Don't you realise your playing Elder Stamina Online

Rykmaar · September 2016

Mush55 wrote: »

Don't you realise your playing Elder Stamina Online

Unfortunately, we do. That's the problem

Izaki · September 2016

Xvorg wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Right on Joy.

1) The only mag users that were getting anywhere near competitive dps were shock staff users. They were still usually well behind the stam dps in their group and they only got this semi competitive dps in fights where there were some adds right at the boss to get some splash damage on. For the most part they also got this dps using the tripple proc from infal armor and vMA weapons combined (something I don't think was intended though I sure think the splash damage was). I have never seen a mag user doing anything else breaking 40k. I rarely see mag users break 30k. Stam users over 40k are the norm with the best ones doing over 50k. The norm is to see melee stam dps close to double ranged mag dps. Should I mention stam vs mag aoe here? Probably not since mag aoe is often lower than mag single target. It is a rare raid pull that I bother with AOE on. I figure it is more useful to single out the particularly bad baddies as a mag user since my aoe is crap anyway. As for pvp... Mag is so bad VD users are rare despite how incredible this set is. Your chances are just so low to actually kill somebody that the incredible proc is not worth it. VD is for siege machines and noobs praying for a lucky Jesus beam. The only dps factor that favored mag users was ultimate (power level, crit percent, secondary effects in bleed or wep power, skills, boss damage resistance, and gear, gear, gear favor stamina users). Guess we had to fix that.

2) Speaking of gear, Strength of Automation and light speaker, Lol. You realize right now stam users get a 15k dps increase from vMA weapons and mag users get less than 3k and that this is the biggest root cause of your balance problems in PvE. Your must also realize also that VO is an incredible stam set and that IA is a mag set that is only very marginally BIS, often, and more often with the shock staff splash change has to be worn by healers for the group boss debuff since there are no mag dps in group anymore, and most users don't even get a 5 peice strength buff from since the fully charged heavy thing is a huge dps loss for all flame users. Yet, you drop in a new BIS 5 peice dps set for stam users that will also be excellent in PVP and give mag users a healing set that healers can't even use since healing is about buffs / debuffs and not magnitude of heals. Raids will need healers in 5 infal / 5 spc with masters staff and 5 gossmer / 5 spc with masters staff. Literally no one who knows anything will wear light speaker.

3) Joy is right about all those staff abilities being crap. They are crap. Ironically, I remember a time when many were BIS. They are utter garbage now, make no mistake. The worst part is that some, force pulse/crushing shock, actually have to be used by some builds despite this because they have not much else to spam while their dot's tick. As for that wall of elements that all mag users have to use because it is a decent DOT. Even this does not well suit a mag build who's purpose is range and movement as the wall is small in size, intolerant of movement, and, worst of all, is far shorter in range than the rest of a ranged mag dp's suite therefore wall of elements hampering the entire purpose of the build.

4) Honestly, the lack of new good quest content coupled with the mag vs stam scaling issues has me down to playing once a week. I don't really like the ball up and leg hump the boss stam melee world. Things were much more fun in the lets actually try to avoid boss mechanics ranged times. I also refuse to spend the time in vMA to get the weapons that are a requirement for relevance, with all the traits out there, that is a fools errand as you could try all year with only a marginal chance of getting what you need. Right on Joy for your post. Sorry, ZOS, the trend line of balance and decision making in this game is pretty clear. Hope you eventually can get things together.

I'm sorry i just can't agree with you. You say that stamina DPS is always higher than mage, but thats a lie. When you look at Hodor and Beyond Infinity, most of their DPS is magicka. You see sorcs like YoloWizard and Streak One pull 48k DPS. Mashinate is a crazy nightblade too. I have a templar friend who's Radiant D consistently hits for 70-80k a tick. There are just examples. Also stamina DPS without vMSA weapons is not as good as magicka DPS, aside from Stamplars. The DPS in a correctly built raid group is more or less the same for mage and stam toons.

Automaton is also not BiS as it doesn't provide crit which is the base of all PvE DPS builds. With vMSA daggers/axes there comes a specific rotation and really you're exaggerating on the 15k DPS increase. Its big, but not that big.

Although I do agree on the fact that Force Pulse and all other destro abilities are s*** (aside from Wall), Force Pulse has many many benefits. Scathing Mage arguably the BiS magicka DPS set in the game and the best possible uptime comes from Force Pulse. Its not that bad to be fair, although a secondary effect other than the crap AoE is very welcome.

Wall of Elements is a very strong DoT. One of the best along with Liquid Lightning and Endless Hail. And really I don't know how you manage to position yourself to not make it hit the target. Its one of the largest ground places DoTs.

I agree with Joy, but what you say is just not true. You're making things sound waaay worse then they actually are.

To achieve strong DPS as magicka user (mDK) you need to: put a (strong)dot (burning embers), weave a light attack, cast WoE, cast talons/petrify, whip, whip, burning embers (to regain health) whip, whip, whip and finally go to the doctor to treat tha carpal tunnel you got.

As a stamina user you need crit charge, light attack, dizz swing and vigor... sometimes.

You have absolutely no idea how stamina DPS operates then. You use DW vMSA weaps or you're wasting your time doing stamina DPS (Templars are different). in between all your DoTs (poison injection, rending slashes, rearming etc.) you have to weave in Flurry + Light Attack. And you must keep in mind that every DoT must be refreshed as soon as it goes out. Oh and the ground AoEs must be refreshed too. The rotation ain't easy, especially without buff trackers (#console). Rearming Trap is also a b*tch to empower correctly, as it doesn't consume the Maelstrom enchantment and you have to use 1 Flurry to empower 2 skills. Its hard to get used to and not f*ck up.
I agree that there isn't much balance between magicka and stamina, but do not claim that stamina is easy mode. Try vMSA on a stam build. Even if you've got Flawless on a mage toon, you'll die a quite few times on your stam toon.

And what you can do as magicka user?? Right, with a vMSA weapon cast a ground dot clearly avoidable and pray for the enemy to stay there more than 5 secs.

--' Talking about PvE and vMSA here... Mobs go where you want them to go. You can't use the term DPS for PvP, because there are so many factors to account for: movement, CC break, self healing. DPS is damage per second and really the only way where this term actually means something is in PvE where the only thing you have to do is DPS and move out of ground AoE. You can't have a proper rotation in PvP either because once again fights are much much more mobile.

You don't use Elemental Blockade in PvP. Its just stupid, waste of a slot and a waste of magicka. As a mDK you have to keep you opponent rooted and CC'd pretty much all the time, because its the only way you can actually do some damage. Fossilize + Meteor + Talons + Burning embers + Whip spam is what I see DKs generally use and what I use more or less.
PvP is very different from PvE so you can't do the same things in both. Therefore balance issues are not the same across the board. Nonetheless, destruction staff and restoration staff skill lines are very bad indeed.

Elyu · September 2016

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I personally would also like to get rid of "Magicka" damage, make all magic skills use the element of the staff that I am holding and get the benefits of the destruction staff passives instead of only destruction staff skills.

This......this would be a BIG step in the right direction.

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I had a thought last night about how to balance Magicka and Stamina. This will probably get flamed immediately, but what about a magicka skill line for dual wield?

Make Blood Craze, Bloodthirst, Quick Cloak, Whirling Blades (Make it give back magicka), and flying blade Magicka morphs (and do magic damage) and make all the passives apply to both Magicka and Stamina Resources, Magic and Physical Damage, Weapon and Spell Crit etc.

Everyone will be happy because magicka and stamina players will have use of VMA daggers/axes and be able to do the associated ~12k more melee DPS. Stamina builds will use bow + dual and magicka will do staff + dual.

Magicka builds that are in melee will be rewarded for fighting in melee with an extra skill line.

Most magicka builds already have 2 sharpened swords, and have the skill line totally leveled, so it will be an easy transition.

And while we are at it why not make a magicka based morph of the dual wield ultimate.

I don't think this is the right solution though.

At the moment stam has 4 weapon skill lines to choose from (1/2 of which give a extra set bonus) while magicka has 2, neither of which give an extra set bonus.

Magicka needs AT LEAST one entirely new weapon skill line, that grants an extra set bonus (e.g. sword and staff)

Minno · September 2016

I used to think stamina should do the most dmg. The knife would cut deeper if sharp.

But when each patch, the stamina sets can gain access to more burst outside their skill lines, I would say it's time to revise how Magicka is used in both pve and pvp.

I now think both Magicka and stamina weapon lines should have access to burst dmg and survivability skill options that are unique to each individual weapon and let the class skills be more passive. Do away with the confusing resource stat segregation and have weapons do the dmg. For example Templars gain 3 trees, each containing 5 skill/weapon altering passives plus 3 utility defining ultimates.

This can be organized as follows:
1)Aedric Philosophy:
-Passive A = convert melee and ranged attacks into a piercing attack that deals additional dmg against blocking enemies, increasing crit dmg, weapon dmg, and increased chance of dealing extra dmg (two hander, unarmed, staves only)
- passive B = increased spell resistance for using spear attacks. With a support ability slotted gain increased block mitigation.

You get the point. And that point being, reduce the game into a simpler kit of parts and create a series of abilities that lets the player play as they see fit without the confusing balance issues, quality control, countless hours spent recoding calculations so the server doesn't lag, etc.

Jar_Ek · September 2016

@Minno the idea is nice but would be a huge rewrite of the game. I think we need to work more within the current framework than outside it / rewrite it. That said each class could have a passive/passives that were applied to all non class skills I guess... but I suspect balance would be a horrific job.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2016

This is precisely that problem when Zos develops everything in its secret laboratory and leaves us out of the development process: we get stuff we don't need and didn't ask for that cannot be changed.

Could have posted just that. I was going to add to it but it's succinct.

PTS is a dog and pony show.

Rykmaar · September 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This is precisely that problem when Zos develops everything in its secret laboratory and leaves us out of the development process: we get stuff we don't need and didn't ask for that cannot be changed.

Could have posted just that. I was going to add to it but it's succinct.

PTS is a dog and pony show.

Truth here.

I still get upset when I think about they way they're taking things though and post. Maybe it's too much optimism, idk.

Either way, we need to hope that they are going to completely redesign some things or I feel that the game will suffer. I don't want it to, but people will leave. Firor's statement that people leaving and coming back is a good thing should tell us what we need to know -- they don't want people to be concurrent, which would require content, they want to sell things in (relatively pricey) chunks every quarter. That's their business model, I suppose, and we're consumers and not corporate planners, but I just want to see more in the way of communication from them about so many of the problems with the game -- from bugs, glitches, to broken gameplay mechanics, to imbalances, and all this. It's easy to talk about RP stuff, or cosplaying, or pictures, or costumes or easy things like that, it's harder to talk to a segment of a playerbase that is concerned about something.

People like @Joy_Division have long been talking about gamebreaking issues for ages. This thread is an example of that -- about a severely needed redesign that is needed for magicka players to enjoy their game.

I have faith, but it's waning.

Ghost-Shot · September 2016

Increase the base damage of destro staves to be equal with the other 2 handed weapons, improve the secondary effects from staves, increase impulse radius to 9.5 meters to be comparable with steel tornado and ffs make the ult something remotely useful, we have enough aoe damage already, what we need is cheap single target burst. Destructive reach is trash, I would like to see it reworked into a universal magicka execute.

I main a magicka DK, my longest range ability is 8 meters, the staves are ranged so should have less damage argument is BS in a game like this.

Rykmaar · September 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Increase the base damage of destro staves to be equal with the other 2 handed weapons, improve the secondary effects from staves, increase impulse radius to 9.5 meters to be comparable with steel tornado and ffs make the ult something remotely useful, we have enough aoe damage already, what we need is cheap single target burst. Destructive reach is trash, I would like to see it reworked into a universal magicka execute.

I main a magicka DK, my longest range ability is 8 meters, the staves are ranged so should have less damage argument is BS in a game like this.

No doubt, especially when that range is negated in 1 second in PvP because of Crit Rush -> dawnbreaker spam.

My first character was a magicka dk so I feel your pain. ZoS wants DK's to be a primarily close-range class. Okay fine. Then why are DKs not given the tools they need for this?

Poor mobility (which you need if you want to be close).

Poor sustain (battle roar for sustain is insufficient -- our spells cost nearly double what the comparable stamina build gets, and they have more stamina than we have magicka. How does this make sense?)

Poor damage (DoTs in PvP can be purged. That neuters us. The only thing we have going for us is meteor+fossilize which is NOT class design, it is a case of players finding a decent combo amongst other skills. Make DoTs unable to be purged, and make whip, our only spammable, actually do damage. It is pitiful right now for its cost. Again, far too expensive. Whip should probably be removed in favor of something else.)

Poor healing (resto staves are in awful shape, see this thread for more. Class healing is neutered in PvP because of battlespirit. The only good class heal we get is useless. Oh, and burning embers is purged, so that doesn't heal reliably. Stamina classes get to have rally+vigor which outheals magicka builds, because that makes sense. Moreover, rally is on their 2h bar -- which means that they can easily get a burst heal on their main damage bar without having to waste time cycling between bars and casting multiple BoPs/wards/etc. Just bad design, ZoS.)

But All of this ties into @Joy_Division 's thread here. Staves (and magicka gameplay in general) need a serious redesign for the modern era. We need to feel like mages in the TES universe, and we need to have the tools we need to survive and kill stuff. Right now, we lack so much.

I'm happy our stamina brethren got buffed. They needed it. But magicka is beyond broken in light of how their gameplay has changed.

MasterSpatula · September 2016

ragespell wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

That aside there seem to be some issues with regards to balance which are being ignored here.

Staffs are RANGED and thus are inherently less risky to use. It's easier to both avoid damage and to finish a fight with a ranged weapon, and as such I would EXPECT them to have lower DPS.

Can we stop saying that? There are so many gap closer in this game, that a ranged class can never fight at range.
Besides, in every game, less mitigation means more damage.

And in PVE, if what you are saying were true, you would see a balance dps wise. But were are the risks you are talking about, when stamina users can pull double dps than a magicka user?!?

IMHO, it's really bad design.

This. A million, billion, trillion times this.

I've never understood how the "melee is higher risk and so should have higher damage" argument has gotten so much traction over the years. Between ubiquitous gap closers and the weakness of Light Armor, the argument is so objectively false that it's improbable-approaching-impossible for anyone to be making it from a place of honesty. Not saying everyone making the argument is dishonest; just saying the argument is bad enough that it's wildly unlikely for anyone to honestly make it. (Don't get me wrong, I think they're lying to themselves too.)

At release, Magica users were the best glass canons. Now, they've kept the glass part while Stam got the cannon part.

Some times I really think if ZOS had just done a decent job of managing Stamina resource management before release, they wouldn't have had to implement so many bad ideas over the last two years.

Aletheion · September 2016

I know it's not going to happen, but I would like to see a Sorcerer be 100% magicka again with no stamina based skills. Morphs that aren't locked into choosing magicka or stamina, but 2 viable magicka options for build diversity and general awesomeness.

For Sorcerers that want to use swords and heavy armors and such, making some form of a Battle Mage class would be better then morphing the existing sorc class into half magicka/ half stamina which is the direction it's been going for some time now.

But, as the OP and many excellent comments in this thread address, making magicka rich and powerful but also without pigeon holing magicka users into one side of the skill line and stamina users into the other. That's not expanding the class, that's limiting the class.

Also, the people who have called out for an offhand for magicka users, I 100% second. I'd love to see a 1 handed wand/scepter and book/orb/talisman offhand.

I'd also like to see the elemental attacks in the skill, not the weapon. I'd love to freeze, shock and burn all with the same weapon because those elements are in the skill line. I doubt we'll ever see that though...

-Aletheion

Diablo 3 - Wizard by DeivCalviz on DeviantArt

Rykmaar · September 2016

MasterSpatula wrote: »

ragespell wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

That aside there seem to be some issues with regards to balance which are being ignored here.

Staffs are RANGED and thus are inherently less risky to use. It's easier to both avoid damage and to finish a fight with a ranged weapon, and as such I would EXPECT them to have lower DPS.

Can we stop saying that? There are so many gap closer in this game, that a ranged class can never fight at range.
Besides, in every game, less mitigation means more damage.

And in PVE, if what you are saying were true, you would see a balance dps wise. But were are the risks you are talking about, when stamina users can pull double dps than a magicka user?!?

IMHO, it's really bad design.

This. A million, billion, trillion times this.

I've never understood how the "melee is higher risk and so should have higher damage" argument has gotten so much traction over the years. Between ubiquitous gap closers and the weakness of Light Armor, the argument is so objectively false that it's improbable-approaching-impossible for anyone to be making it from a place of honesty. Not saying everyone making the argument is dishonest; just saying the argument is bad enough that it's wildly unlikely for anyone to honestly make it. (Don't get me wrong, I think they're lying to themselves too.)

At release, Magica users were the best glass canons. Now, they've kept the glass part while Stam got the cannon part.

Some times I really think if ZOS had just done a decent job of managing Stamina resource management before release, they wouldn't have had to implement so many bad ideas over the last two years.

Keeping the glass, but losing the cannon is a great way to describe things right now.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

Do you guys have any comment on the staff discussion here???

Derra · September 2016

Two handed weapons need to account for two sets pieces to compete with DW and 1h+shield as only this offers the option to equip 2p undaunted + two different 5p setbonuses.

Shadesofkin · September 2016

Anymore I just want to see some sort of foci to slot alongside staves. Something that we can craft or get as a drop that adds spell damage/set buffs.

A glove, a bracelet, a charm...whatever. Just let us add it to the Poison slot if it's too much trouble.

Solariken · September 2016

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I was going to write a similar review, but @Joy_Division wrote everything I would have said an then some.

Nobody is going to run the desto ult unless it is more DPS than meteor, provides some unique utility that is not provided by class ultimates that already exist, or unless it was a cool burst ultimate.

I don't even know where to start with the healing ult...

I personally would also like to get rid of "Magicka" damage, make all magic skills use the element of the staff that I am holding and get the benefits of the destruction staff passives instead of only destruction staff skills.

What a great idea! This ONE change would make staff builds competitive and greatly enhance the flavor of class skills. @ZOS_RichLambert you guys should think about this!

STEVIL · September 2016

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not disagreeing with people on this thread

That aside there seem to be some issues with regards to balance which are being ignored here.

Staffs are RANGED and thus are inherently less risky to use. It's easier to both avoid damage and to finish a fight with a ranged weapon, and as such I would EXPECT them to have lower DPS.

Also, MOST class skills are magika based, so the staff skill lines are complimented by MOST class skills, while stamina based weapons are pretty much stand alone with only a FEW class skills available at the same power level.

Can this discussion acknowledge that the staff skill lines are intended to supplement the class skills and as such look at them as primary support skill lines?

When using stamina builds you are expected to mostly use the weapon skills for your spammable dps. The only exception I can think of is the nightblade suprise attack, but even there rapid strikes has higher dps.

Once again, I'm not in any way saying that stamina and magi are playing on an even battlefield at the moment, or that there are not balance issues.
All I am saying is that staffs play a very different role than the stamina weapons in how they function with the rest of the class and should not be looked at in isolation, because in isolation staff skills will be inferior to weapon skills BY DESIGN.

The ultimate problem I have with this argument is that the difference between staves and the other 4 skills in the game is nearly 15k dps if you're set up correctly. I'm not convinced that melee needs 15k difference from ranged.

Furthermore, the magicka DK is a melee as well and using anything but a staff would be a massive dps loss for them.

is this difference primarily from the basic diff between staff and swords?
Is this primarily from the difference betweEn STA and MAG?
Is this primarily due to the diff between say certain specific weapons - like say DW maelstrom daggers or swords?

Any idea what the DPS diff would be between staff wielding sorc vs dagger wielding stam sorc or staff wielding magblade vs dagger wielding stamblade if all wore generic purple armor with similar enchants? Sub in 2h for DW dagger if you want.

is that difference gonna run 15K?

If not, then maybe the 15k diff is not "bad staff mechanics" but imbalanced sets and other gear choices.

Rykmaar · September 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not disagreeing with people on this thread

That aside there seem to be some issues with regards to balance which are being ignored here.

Staffs are RANGED and thus are inherently less risky to use. It's easier to both avoid damage and to finish a fight with a ranged weapon, and as such I would EXPECT them to have lower DPS.

Also, MOST class skills are magika based, so the staff skill lines are complimented by MOST class skills, while stamina based weapons are pretty much stand alone with only a FEW class skills available at the same power level.

Can this discussion acknowledge that the staff skill lines are intended to supplement the class skills and as such look at them as primary support skill lines?

When using stamina builds you are expected to mostly use the weapon skills for your spammable dps. The only exception I can think of is the nightblade suprise attack, but even there rapid strikes has higher dps.

Once again, I'm not in any way saying that stamina and magi are playing on an even battlefield at the moment, or that there are not balance issues.
All I am saying is that staffs play a very different role than the stamina weapons in how they function with the rest of the class and should not be looked at in isolation, because in isolation staff skills will be inferior to weapon skills BY DESIGN.

The ultimate problem I have with this argument is that the difference between staves and the other 4 skills in the game is nearly 15k dps if you're set up correctly. I'm not convinced that melee needs 15k difference from ranged.

Furthermore, the magicka DK is a melee as well and using anything but a staff would be a massive dps loss for them.

is this difference primarily from the basic diff between staff and swords?
Is this primarily from the difference betweEn STA and MAG?
Is this primarily due to the diff between say certain specific weapons - like say DW maelstrom daggers or swords?

Any idea what the DPS diff would be between staff wielding sorc vs dagger wielding stam sorc or staff wielding magblade vs dagger wielding stamblade if all wore generic purple armor with similar enchants? Sub in 2h for DW dagger if you want.

is that difference gonna run 15K?

If not, then maybe the 15k diff is not "bad staff mechanics" but imbalanced sets and other gear choices.

Honestly, the combination of informative posts and suggestions highlights that a lot of work is needed to balance things -- class modifications, weapon modifications, and modifications to gear sets. While insightful, I feel that the volume of needed changes means that ZoS won't address everything during their "balance" patch in u13.

More likely, they'll change 5 things -- 1 thing per class and one with destro staves -- and call it a day. I hope not, I really do hope not, but I'm worried. I want to play this game, just losing reasons to do so.

Joy_Division · September 2016

Read the latest patch notes. Very disappointing.

I have zero confidence the next patch, which is supposed to address balance issues, will improve the game as I do not see evidence that the devs are aware of the game's imbalance with staffs to begin with.

It's clear the devs are under the impression that it's fine for a 250 cost destro staff ultimate to just do damage even though every other expensive ultimate has critical other functions such as damage mitigation, stun, heal debuff, silence, etc. This is a huge problem. Meteor is not only clearly better, but just by equipping two swords, I can increase its effectiveness even more! Using a destro staff in-itself is already a sacrifice, the ultimate has to be really good to make up for that.

The lackluster resto staff ultimate has not been changed and is still overkill healing on a single player. it's terrible. So not only is it clear to me the devs don't use resto staffs, it's crustal clear none of them have played a healer that they care about.

Rykmaar · September 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Read the latest patch notes. Very disappointing.

I have zero confidence the next patch, which is supposed to address balance issues, will improve the game as I do not see evidence that the devs are aware of the game's imbalance with staffs to begin with.

It's clear the devs are under the impression that it's fine for a 250 cost destro staff ultimate to just do damage even though every other expensive ultimate has critical other functions such as damage mitigation, stun, heal debuff, silence, etc. This is a huge problem. Meteor is not only clearly better, but just by equipping two swords, I can increase its effectiveness even more! Using a destro staff in-itself is already a sacrifice, the ultimate has to be really good to make up for that.

The lackluster resto staff ultimate has not been changed and is still overkill healing on a single player. it's terrible. So not only is it clear to me the devs don't use resto staffs, it's crustal clear none of them have played a healer that they care about.

Agreed, @Joy_Division

I'm actually pretty worried about the game from an existence perspective now. I mean, it's easy to blame devs for mistakes. But when these mistakes are consistently made, when feedback is consistently ignored, and when imbalance is actually encouraged by the devs it sends the wrong message to the playerbase. Combine this with their ultimately unacceptable quarterly balance patch schedule and you get cynical. Really cynical. Really quickly.

Why would they put it off that long? Keep people playing and paying in the hopes things will get fixed. (cynical answer)

Will they fix things? Nope, they'll address one, maybe two things and call it a day while distracting people with new crown store content. (cynical answer)

Why 1T? Why now? Not so much to bring people together in Tamriel, rather to make zones appear more populous than they are, and hiding lower subscriber numbers. (cynical answer)

My point is that actions fuel this thinking, and this thinking is unhealthy for the game. I mean, it is easy to get that way after you see petition after petition ignored on the official forums and devs that don't comment on the state of their game. In this day and age, the level of silence from them is unacceptable, and where there is silence, people construe that as tacit approval of the status quo.

ESO is going the path of STO and other games like that. Largely social games built around a cash shop. ZoS has no intention (demonstrably) to address balance issues because even when they claim they will work on things they have not said or shown anything that proves that any of them have even played a magicka class before or understand how they work.

I worry because people are going to leave this game more than they already have been if this continues. I worry that the only avenue for the TES world is getting butchered by a company that seems content on extracting as much money from its clientele as possible without demonstrating that they have learned the lessons of past developers regarding goodwill to and from players, scummy cash shop policies, IP cash grab practices.

I really hope your, and other, feedback will get listened to @Joy_Division , but as with the magicka DK. I don't think they care or even understand what the problem is.

Contraptions · September 2016

There were some suggestions I saw to make staves/bows/2 handers count for 2 pieces in a set. It's a small step that they could take to reduce the disparity between dual wield and everything else. One extra set bonus is nothing to sneeze at.

Overall, I agree with your posts OP. While stam was really underperforming when the game launched, we've seen how the game has changed to the point where stam weapons are now the best (even for magicka builds). As someone who's been running mag sorc since the beginning I can only hope balance will be achieved soon.

I feel ESO needs balance patches way more often. We simply cannot afford to wait 3 to 6 months for skills or sets to be tweaked or fixed. ZOS, you are logging combat data while we play, so why don't you use it? Give us dev updates that state possible changes that you may be making soon, and provide data you have logged to prove your point. Engage us on the forums much more regularly to ask for suggestions or comments on upcoming balancing changes. Do this not just when PTS is testing the next big update but every two weeks or so. Help us help you make the game better.

I actually think the game will be more balanced with more classes and skill line/weapon types. Right now, destruction staff has to fill the role of magicka dps in all situations. Ranged. Melee. PVE and PVP. This becomes incredibly hard to design for. Skills which are good in PVE, such as ground based DOTs like Wall, become less effective or are downright useless in PVP. By adding more weapons which can fill more niches I feel there will be more flexibility. Perhaps illusion, alteration, conjuration and mysticism staves could be added? Then the variety of stam vs magicka weapons would be more even.