Very sad to see the crown crates are gonna exploit people with gambling issues!

Wolfchild07 · September 2016

Sureshawt wrote: »

deadlychaos1991 wrote: »

Look I get the whole rng crown crate thing but it's just bad business practice. It is taking advantage over people who have a gambling addiction. Not saying it's Zos's responsibility to prevent or cure the addiction but it's still a low blow. People already said they would have been WILLING to buy the types of items they offer outright on the crown store. Which would have made them plenty of money by itself. I for one would have purchased a storm mount or two. But now, not a single penny is going toward that. They're turning away purchasing customers to appeal to gamblers. Making 0 money of people who don't gamble, and a *** ton off people who do. It's not illegal nor will it make me leave the game, it's just low.

I find this argument about gambling addiction to also be a reach and almost as bad as the predatory business practice accusation.

Are people with gambling addictions really going to throw money at this given all the real world gambling options they have available and do so just for a cosmetic virtual item?

Seriously people get a grip.

Most people gamble:

for a bit of excitement
as part of a social activity
to win money
to distract themselves from the pressures of work and family
for a safe place to go out of the house.

Taken from http://www.responsiblegambling.vic.gov.au/getting-help/signs-of-a-problem/why-do-i-gamble

4 out of 5 of those reasons aren't about making money. 3 of them apply to crown crates.

Minno · September 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As far as im concerned those Crown crates don't exist...i'll never buy one let alone even look at them. I simply have no interest.

I forgot this was a feature this update lol.

Regardless, it's traditional for MMOs to exploit addictive games mechanics. We haven't reached a maturity in the player base to support game styles that support an indie-gaming view of how one should enjoy video games.

Elsonso · September 2016

CasNation wrote: »

But look around you; how many people do you see that are excited about these things? A couple? Maybe? How many more are vehemently oppossed? I'd say the grand majority.

In the end, it is only the couple that matter. The grand majority do not.

They would not be putting these into the game if they had any interest, even a shred of interest, in pleasing the majority population of the game.

Edit: And they are probably telling themselves that the majority of the players DO want these things, and WILL buy these things. Eventually, they will be right.

newtinmpls · September 2016

sad face

OTOH I don't smoke either.

Brrrofski · September 2016

With all due respect, just because there are people with gambling addictions or issues doean't mean they shouldn't exist at all.

This is not a dig or meant to be disrespectful, but because a small minority can't enjoy something it shouldn't mean others can't. Do you want ban selling alcohol from anywhere other than a pub/club/bar for the same reason?

I for one won't bother with them for sure. They are only cosmetic things so I won't be wasting money on them.

noxayloxub17_ESO · September 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As far as im concerned those Crown crates don't exist...i'll never buy one let alone even look at them. I simply have no interest.

I agree but I am sad that now I won't ever have the opportunity to buy some pets and mounts I really like because I refuse to gamble for them. I am very very disappointed to say the least.

JimT722 · September 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

But look around you; how many people do you see that are excited about these things? A couple? Maybe? How many more are vehemently oppossed? I'd say the grand majority.

In the end, it is only the couple that matter. The grand majority do not.

They would not be putting these into the game if they had any interest, even a shred of interest, in pleasing the majority population of the game.

Edit: And they are probably telling themselves that the majority of the players DO want these things, and WILL buy these things. Eventually, they will be right.

This is a sad truth. I haven't been able to bring myself to log in for weeks now since they have announced this. If this doesn't kill the game for a lot of players I don't know what will. I knew the exclusive items would be bad but I had no idea it would be this bad. First time in the 2 years I have played that I am thinking of moving on.

jhharvest · September 2016

I think it's pretty immoral. Cash purchases shouldn't be RNG.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2016

There's a 100 page thread on general discussion where we slamed these even before they were released.

Their not lisening.

JimT722 · September 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There's a 100 page thread on general discussion where we slamed these even before they were released.

Their not lisening.

That's because we are over reacting. Hines said so. We only care if they add p2w items.

Seriously, he attacks the most irrational argument in the entire thread? Most complaints were that it would end up... Well exactly like this.

silvereyes · September 2016

Sureshawt wrote: »

Characterizing this as a predatory business practice is not just a leap in logic it is laughable. There is no deceit or anything remotely unethical about these items. Information about the items is provided in detail upfront and is a purely optional purchase.

I couldn't disagree more. This isn't an overpriced sandwich with the price on the menu.

This system exploits the hopes of those who can't afford more expensive crown store items by promising a chance to finally attain them, all the while goading the player on and dazzling them with flashy animations. The consolation prizes are laughable, and the conversion rate to gems for duplicates is insulting.

It's the video game equivalent of a rigged carnival game that awards everyone with trash prizes while dust sits on the prizes everyone wants. "Step right up! Step right up! Today could be your lucky day!"

It's trashy, preys on the hopes of the poorest players, and lies through omission by hiding the drop rates inside an RNG black box that can change at any time.

timidobserver · September 2016

I am okay with gambling addicted people paying for my future dlcs.

JimT722 · September 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

I am okay with gambling addicted people paying for my future dlcs.

Your not going to get a steady stream of future dlc content unless you consider cosmetics for the gambling boxes dlc. That is what happened in every other f2p game that had these and you will have to settle for yearly updates if your lucky. Everyone is affected even those that don't buy. Why spend the massive effort to design new zones with great content when people hand their life savings to Pacrooti?

Erasure · September 2016

Dominoid wrote: »

Erasure wrote: »

Random boxes with unique and useful items not available elsewhere like this, screams Nexon.

Power creep and P2W are also things Nexon does. We're 2 for 3 at the moment.

Did I miss the useful part?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/291206/new-xp-scrolls#latest

Experience scrolls, superior to what can be created through crafting. It always starts with something small, to get people used to the idea... then you push a different boundary. Oh, this staff is just-barely-perhaps BIS for like, one build, and useful to others. Oh, this random token will grant me a research slot completion, that's cool! Oh, here's a mount with a 5% speed bonus...

Give it a few years, and you end up paying money to attempt, not guarantee, attempt, gear upgrades. People spend hundreds and laugh off receiving nothing useful in return. It's all been seen before in other games. I'd really like it to not happen here.

MissBizz · September 2016

Erasure wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Erasure wrote: »

Random boxes with unique and useful items not available elsewhere like this, screams Nexon.

Power creep and P2W are also things Nexon does. We're 2 for 3 at the moment.

Did I miss the useful part?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/291206/new-xp-scrolls#latest

Experience scrolls, superior to what can be created through crafting. It always starts with something small, to get people used to the idea... then you push a different boundary. Oh, this staff is just-barely-perhaps BIS for like, one build, and useful to others. Oh, this random token will grant me a research slot completion, that's cool! Oh, here's a mount with a 5% speed bonus...

Give it a few years, and you end up paying money to attempt, not guarantee, attempt, gear upgrades. People spend hundreds and laugh off receiving nothing useful in return. It's all been seen before in other games. I'd really like it to not happen here.

Well, those XP Scrolls already are better than what's available in game. Too bad they are apparently rare and instead you get the useless items that they actually stuck with their word and are worse than the in game versions (or for the normal XP Scrolls.. equal to).

mad0ni0n wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

mad0ni0n wrote: »

ZOS aren't responsible for protecting people from themselves. If people are going to make bad decisions that's their problem, why should everyone go without this feature, that some people might enjoy, just because a small minority are incapable of controlling themselves? The mistakes you make are yours alone, nobody elses.

Are you serious? If so, you are missing the point entirely.

People aren't arguing for the removal of the ENTIRE EVERYTHING that is associated with Crown boxes, they just want the items in those boxes to be available directly for reasonable prices.

It isn't about "protecting" people from bad decisions, it's about elimating predatory business practices while promoting a customer facing business model that attracts new players not drives them away.

If all the best items could be purchased separately why would anyone open crates? The whole point is that there's a possibility you'll get some super rare drop that not everyone can just buy. ZOS simply wouldn't have spent the resources implementing this feature if they weren't going to make a good return; which they won't if there's no good reason to buy crates.

ZOS can operate their business anyway they like, the way you make your voice heard is by not using their products. If ZOS discover that this feature really drives people away as you suggest then I'm sure they will quickly change their mind.

The people who don't want to spend 6k crowns on a shiny new limited edition mount would probably throw a few crowns at those boxes.

Me? I'd buy the 6k mount. But now that it's behind that gamblebox, I won't be. If the gamble box stuff in consistently superior to the mounts released in the regular crown store, they will also be losing money from me since I probably won't care about them as much "since there's obviously a better version in the gamble box"

Vaoh · September 2016

So you all know:

DROP RATES ON THE RARE ITEMS IN THESE GAMBLE CRATES, SUCH AS ATRONACH MOUNTS, ARE EXTREMELY LOW!

YOU WILL NOT GET WHAT YOU WANT UNTIL YOU FORK OVER UPWARDS OF $200-$300 AND EVEN THEN YOU MAY NOT GET ONE!

DO NOT BUY THESE CRATES! LET ZOS KNOW THAT THE SHEER DROP RATES ON THESE MOUNTS ARE UNACCEPTABLE!

You thought $40 mounts were bad?

3000 Crowns too much?

Well try 30000 Crowns for a single mount if you're lucky. It is that bad. Do not support ZOS here people! Please don't let ZOS implement these Crown Crates in the scummy way they plan to!

This feature in itself is bad for ESO, yet can still be dealt with.

It is that ZOS has chosen to stop placing mounts and other cool stuff on the Crown Store for 2000-3000 Crowns, and instead put it in these Crates with a 1% drop rate that is disgusting. You now need to spend upwards of 20K Crowns for a single cool vanity item.

If we band together we may stop ZOS from heading the wrong route and slowly killing ESO!

#SaveESO

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

So you all know:

DROP RATES ON THE RARE ITEMS IN THESE GAMBLE CRATES, SUCH AS ATRONACH MOUNTS, ARE EXTREMELY LOW!

YOU WILL NOT GET WHAT YOU WANT UNTIL YOU FORK OVER UPWARDS OF $200-$300 AND EVEN THEN YOU MAY NOT GET ONE!

DO NOT BUY THESE CRATES! LET ZOS KNOW THAT THE SHEER DROP RATES ON THESE MOUNTS ARE UNACCEPTABLE!

You thought $40 mounts were bad?

3000 Crowns too much?

Well try 30000 Crowns for a single mount if you're lucky. It is that bad. Do not support ZOS here people! Please don't let ZOS implement these Crown Crates in the scummy way they plan to!

This feature in itself is bad for ESO, yet can still be dealt with.

It is that ZOS has chosen to stop placing mounts and other cool stuff on the Crown Store for 2000-3000 Crowns, and instead put it in these Crates with a 1% drop rate that is disgusting. You now need to spend upwards of 20K Crowns for a single cool vanity item.

If we band together we may stop ZOS from heading the wrong route and slowly killing ESO!

#SaveESO

You tried them?

FriedEggSandwich · September 2016

I believe gambling is a tax on the poor, but it's widely accepted. Overwatch has loot boxes for cosmetic items and everyone thinks that's fine. But overwatch loot boxes have a reasonable chance of dropping a yellow item, it just might not be the yellow item you were looking for. I certainly won't be buying any eso loot crates, but can you really criticise the model?

JimT722 · September 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I believe gambling is a tax on the poor, but it's widely accepted. Overwatch has loot boxes for cosmetic items and everyone thinks that's fine. But overwatch loot boxes have a reasonable chance of dropping a yellow item, it just might not be the yellow item you were looking for. I certainly won't be buying any eso loot crates, but can you really criticise the model?

Yes I can and will. Overwatch launched with loot crates in them so anyone buying the game knew it would be included. These are being added 2 years after release. Rpg players are more cosmetically focused because you tend to be more attached to your character. Now 2 years later they want people to gamble an unknown amount of money for a slight chance at the few items that work for your character. Gambling is accepted but should it be included in games where it can't be regulated? No. Gambling with money has no place in games.

Silver_Strider · September 2016

Don't parts of Europe have laws against gambling?
I know Germany does and if these crown boxes go out, it's very likely ESO will be banned entirely from those countries, meaning all those customers will be lost.

Also, consider that people are sue happy these days and will sue just about anything with a pulse for a quick buck. I can already see the headlines

"Gamer sues Zenimax for enabling his gambling addiction"
"I lost my job, house and family just trying to get a monkey pet in ESO."

These crown boxes will be the death of ESO, one way or another.

Eiagra · September 2016

There's some interesting videos on Extra Credit that goes into some of these skeeving, low-down, scummy, manipulative, exploitative designs.

I have very serious concerns about where things are headed now. If they are willing to exploit the player base to this level, what's next?

All I can do is just observe. Our voices seem to go unheeded.

Vaoh · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

So you all know:

DROP RATES ON THE RARE ITEMS IN THESE GAMBLE CRATES, SUCH AS ATRONACH MOUNTS, ARE EXTREMELY LOW!

YOU WILL NOT GET WHAT YOU WANT UNTIL YOU FORK OVER UPWARDS OF $200-$300 AND EVEN THEN YOU MAY NOT GET ONE!

DO NOT BUY THESE CRATES! LET ZOS KNOW THAT THE SHEER DROP RATES ON THESE MOUNTS ARE UNACCEPTABLE!

You thought $40 mounts were bad?

3000 Crowns too much?

Well try 30000 Crowns for a single mount if you're lucky. It is that bad. Do not support ZOS here people! Please don't let ZOS implement these Crown Crates in the scummy way they plan to!

This feature in itself is bad for ESO, yet can still be dealt with.

It is that ZOS has chosen to stop placing mounts and other cool stuff on the Crown Store for 2000-3000 Crowns, and instead put it in these Crates with a 1% drop rate that is disgusting. You now need to spend upwards of 20K Crowns for a single cool vanity item.

If we band together we may stop ZOS from heading the wrong route and slowly killing ESO!

#SaveESO

You tried them?

Lots of Vids of people opening them.

They never drop.

Also if you get a repeat item you get like 5 of those Crown jewels.

Takes 400 to buy a mount. $300 to get your mount will typically be very generous.

If you want a SPECIFIC Atronach mount you are looking into the $500-$1000 dollar mark.

Unless the 0.01% RNG favors you. That's why it's gambling.

Sharee · September 2016

If i open a distillery, i am not trying exploit people with alcohol issues, i am opening a business to provide goods for which there is a demand. There are plenty of customers interested in my goods that are not alcohol addicts.

Some of them are, and that's unfortunate. But it does not mean i'm some sort of monster and that i should be "better than this" like the OP suggests towards ZOS.

Elsonso · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

If i open a distillery, i am not trying exploit people with alcohol issues, i am opening a business to provide goods for which there is a demand. There are plenty of customers interested in my goods that are not alcohol addicts.

Why would you pick a distillery as an example when you have the entire gambling and casino industry to pick from?

BlazingDynamo · September 2016

Cinbri wrote: »

I feel sad for people that will be exploited by videogame feature.

Gambling is an addiction just like anything else. I agree it's unfortunate that there will be some ppl who get caught up in this and blow hundreds or god forbid thousands.

ZOS is better than this. I hope the really change their minds about this and either lower the prices significantly, add much more useful and worth while items in the crown crates or just scrap the idea completely.

I would have fired whoever came up with this idea on the spot. Everybody needs to make a living I get that but can you go to bed knowing you put food on your plate by taking someone elses away? I can't.

BlazingDynamo · September 2016

Sureshawt wrote: »

deadlychaos1991 wrote: »

Look I get the whole rng crown crate thing but it's just bad business practice. It is taking advantage over people who have a gambling addiction. Not saying it's Zos's responsibility to prevent or cure the addiction but it's still a low blow. People already said they would have been WILLING to buy the types of items they offer outright on the crown store. Which would have made them plenty of money by itself. I for one would have purchased a storm mount or two. But now, not a single penny is going toward that. They're turning away purchasing customers to appeal to gamblers. Making 0 money of people who don't gamble, and a *** ton off people who do. It's not illegal nor will it make me leave the game, it's just low.

I find this argument about gambling addiction to also be a reach and almost as bad as the predatory business practice accusation.

Are people with gambling addictions really going to throw money at this given all the real world gambling options they have available and do so just for a cosmetic virtual item?

Seriously people get a grip.

And yes they will, you clearly don't know someone you love who has been through this. Gambling comes in more forms than casinos. Someone playing this game could have suffered a serious addiction in the past and this could trigger it.

Sharee · September 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

If i open a distillery, i am not trying exploit people with alcohol issues, i am opening a business to provide goods for which there is a demand. There are plenty of customers interested in my goods that are not alcohol addicts.

Why would you pick a distillery as an example when you have the entire gambling and casino industry to pick from?

Because there are more people who occasionally drink than people who occasionally gamble, and i wanted the analogy to be understood by as many as possible.

WillhelmBlack · September 2016

It's all fluff. If players can't handle their own money knowing that, then it's their own fault.

I was sad to find out there's nothing of any use in the crates, I have crowns to burn atm but none of that crap appeals to me at all.

Elsonso · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

If i open a distillery, i am not trying exploit people with alcohol issues, i am opening a business to provide goods for which there is a demand. There are plenty of customers interested in my goods that are not alcohol addicts.

Why would you pick a distillery as an example when you have the entire gambling and casino industry to pick from?

Because there are more people who occasionally drink than people who occasionally gamble, and i wanted the analogy to be understood by as many as possible.

You should have picked a casino. People do not open a distillery for the same reason that people open a casino.

The question is whether the Crown Crates are more like a distillery than a casino. Pacrooti makes an excellent case that it is more along the lines of a casino than a distillery. The point for the player is not to just have fun, but to also get lucky and win something big. This concept does not exist in the distillery. (Edit: Ahem... at least not in a reputable "distillery") The point for ZOS is to get players to buy a lot of Crown Crates, as many as they want. There are no brakes and no point where ZOS must step in an stop the customer, as there would be in distillery with on-premises consumption. ZOS is acting more like a casino. They have no legal requirement to stop the customer that is taking it too far.

With the Crown Crates, ZOS fills the role of a casino owner more effectively than the role of a distillery owner.

Asardes · September 2016

From my point of view the crown store contains 90% useless, purely cosmetic stuff, 7% marginally useful things like riding lessons, experience scrolls and various other consumables and 3% useful things, namely the DLCs, which are at least real content (mostly crap though, with some good stuff sprinkled in: skill points, set workbenches, a trial, an arena) - those are priced from 1500-3000 crowns each. But there was a blue neon cat mount that was priced at 4000. And people bought it, I see lots of those mounts.

There are a lot of things in the real world that tickle people's vanity to get their money, some involve randomness as well. But that's life. Some just want to show off, and those things help them do it. It's a tax on vanity. Gambling is not a "tax on the poor" in the real life either. There are plenty of examples of very rich people who have been ruined by gambling debts. It's a tax on vanity and stupidity. As long as there are enough stupid people who would gamble or pay their last penny for a shiny bead, there will be smart people who would take advantage of them. And it's OK, because being stupid shouldn't be free; if it were, it will actually encouraged.

So I really don't see any reason here to get worked out. The more ZoS will sell, the better the game will be for the rest. If it sells silly stuff and there are people who will buy/gamble for it I'm actually happy because I know that there will be enough money for server upkeep, patching and even new content, without needing to pay more than we already do. I see lots of people who like to show off their zombie horse or poof shaman suit, but barely know how to play. But I don't get mad at them, because they pay for me to enjoy playing the content they are unable to, still riding my plain brown horse and with a game earned pet in tow