ZOS Claims to Use "Hard Data" for Balancing
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Ivan04✭✭✭✭koendrenthe8neb18_ESO wrote: »This. Everything on this! At the start this game was all about having the skills and abilities to win a match. Nowadays it's just a equipment fest. The ones with the most expensive outfit wins the match 9/10 times. Please nerf equipment to give them a less bigger impact, because it's frustrating for people who don't want to spend mills of money to get a good set.
I agree with you on that that the equipment shouldn't matter as much as it does, but skills still matter everything in this game, and some of them are quite cheesy and deserve to be brought down a little. Although that would take some fun out of the game, so I'm mostly indifferent to strong abilities as long as there are counters present. Also to every best in slot set there are easily acquirable alternatives.
In the end, personal skill is always the biggest factor in overall success.0 -
Ivan04✭✭✭✭koendrenthe8neb18_ESO wrote: »This. Everything on this! At the start this game was all about having the skills and abilities to win a match. Nowadays it's just a equipment fest. The ones with the most expensive outfit wins the match 9/10 times. Please nerf equipment to give them a less bigger impact, because it's frustrating for people who don't want to spend mills of money to get a good set.
I agree with you on that that the equipment shouldn't matter as much as it does, but skills still matter everything in this game, and some of them are quite cheesy and deserve to be brought down a little. Although that would take some fun out of the game, so I'm mostly indifferent to strong abilities as long as there are counters present. Also to every best in slot set there are easily acquirable alternatives.
In the end, personal skill is always the biggest factor in overall success.0 -
AlcastClass Representative"The only statistics you can trust are those you falsified yourself."
Balancing a game according to some statistics is just simply wrong. It does NOT reflect feedback of players that care about the game at all.
PVP:
Yet you also have to take into consideration, that most people here on the forum are SOLO/Smallcale People. This game is not made for Solo/Smallscale People.
However, ZOS is reducing the server populationcap every patch and praisimg themself with "the game is less laggy" makes me wonder, why do people not revolt/care? Or do they not notice?
What does ZOS want with PVP? Do they have any solid plans for the future? I know they have plans for PvE and I am happy about that.
Edited by Alcast on September 17, 2016 12:17PMhttps://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
https://eso-hub.com - ESO-Hub.com Sets, Skills, Guides & News
https://dwemerautomaton.com - Discord, Telegram & Twitch Command Bot4 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭way to serve the haters ZOS keep on keeping on, love to watch em whine and complain even when smacked down with facts, just proves that they were ignorant morons in the first place XD
Flaming and insulting people is against forum rules. Careful you don't get the smack down yourself.Retired.
Nord mDK1 -
Daraugh✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Feedback from everyone is one very important part, but we also look at hard data and how a change would affect every other part of the game.
Honestly Gina, I've enjoyed many conversations with you and various Devs since Beta. But the claim that you're using "hard data" to determine the affects of various changes is laughable considering the current state of your game.
*****
What hard data did you examine when balancing the CP system? Do passives like unchained look balanced to you?
What hard data did you examine when implementing Battle Spirit, especially in relation to class defining skills like Dragon Blood?
What hard data did you use when implementing a no CP campaign? Did you adjust Streak / Dodge penalties to compensate for 0 CP PvP?
What hard data did you use when implementing crutch sets like Shield breaker? Did you adjust this set after nerfing sorc shields?
What hard data did you use when setting shield duration at 6 seconds? Are your matrices showing an acceptable number of MagSorcs in Cyrodiil?
What hard data did you use when implementing proc sets like Valendrith and Viper? Do you feel these sets increase or decrease the importance of player skill in ESO?
What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?
What hard data did you use when buffing Soul Assault? Is another long-range, undodgeable beam encouraging or discouraging smart counter-play in ESO's PvP?
What hard data did you use that allowed gap closers to exist in their current state? Has banning players for using a mechanic you developed helped to address the underlying mechanical issues?
What hard data did you use to balance Masters and Maelstrom weapons for Magicka and Stamina users? Do you feel that Magicka users benefit from their vMA weapons as much as Stamina users do from theirs?
What hard data did you use when deciding that multiple poisons should apply on one person? Do you feel zerglings need additional advantages to be successful in 20 v 2 situations?
What hard data did you use when implementing Rally and Vigour? Do you feel stam builds need a burst heal from their offensive weapon (Rally) and a passive heal (Vigour) whose ticks surpasses a DKs burst heal?
What hard data did you use when deciding that Bound Armor would remain a toggle? That Storm Atronach would be the only Atronach in the game that can be CC'd?
What hard data did you reference that led you to decide that Streak should be the only CLASS DEFINING SKILL in the game that punishes the user for casting it more than once? Why is the same not true for other class defining skills like cloak, BoL and Wings?
*****
I hope you understand why the community might have a tough time understanding your use of "hard data." The current state of ESO leads me to believe that either:
a) you don't use hard data, or
b) you do use hard data, but lack the competence to use it effectively, or
c) you do use hard data and have the competence to use it effectively, but lack the monetary incentive to do so
"Men are more important than tools. If you don't believe so, put a good tool into the hands of a poor workman."
- John J. Bernet
Or the data they have, which is players and what they use, didn't show the things you wanted it to show.May all beings have happiness
May they be free from suffering
May they find the joy that has never known suffering
May they be free from attachment and hatred3 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »It is worth noting that players are not privy to all of the information that the dev has regarding the bar graphs that were posted, specifically the timeline in which the data was collected. If such information were to be shared with players, then players are more likely to arrive at the same conclusion that the dev did regarding this matter.
No. People "in distrust" would have accused Rich of manipulating, no matter how much information he'd have given. Because ALL DATA is biased, even the hardest, rawest data. 100% (or aiming at that) correct interpretation of data requires experience of the environment, and a lot more other data, and, at any given stage, a human (educated but biased) decision as to how to approach this data.
If for instance the time stamp was 9am two days ago, people would have (rightfully) complained that the population in PvP areas is significantly different between prime time and breakfast time. But breakfast time in Baltimore is prime time for other players in other locations. The time zones are a bigger issue on the US server than on EU. Then for correct reading you'd need data about server populations and time zones on the US server. Then based on that you'd probably need to repeat the data extraction several times, and proceed with some statistical adjustement to reach a somewhat reliable average.
As some people have mentioned also, what does "light armor" mean in that data and how were people wearing 5/1/1 or 3/3/1 calculated in that raw data ?
Etc etc. This is ENDLESS. Anyone who has the slightest experience in statistics and data processing knows that it is an "ALL-OR-NOTHING" kind of ideal thing, which you cannot reach and therefore at some stage the human behind it has to say "stop here. I think my results are reliable as they are now, even if I could check and cross-analyze my results with even more data". Which is why I doubt that some self-proclaimed "math and stats experts" in this thread are as experienced as they pretend to be.
So I insist that people were not asked to evaluate data, they were given an illustration on why ZOS makes such an such decisions. And no matter the obvious bias, (which Rich even mentioned in his post), I trust ZOS MUCH MORE than any particular player or group of players, because players want to suit their own desires, while ZOS is required to fulfill the needs and playing habits of an entire playerbase.
You can insist that "people were not asked to evaluate data" all you want. But a person will not understand the information on a bar graph unless they evaluate the data. This step (evaluation) cannot be simply tossed out the window - because without it the exchange of information from one person to others will never occur.
You're absolutely right in saying that there will always be more data and that it's an "endless" process unless you pick a stopping point. However a time stamp is an essential piece of information that cannot be ignored when presenting this particular data. Was the information on the graphs accumulated within the last month, or does it include all information gathered since launch? If you can't answer that question while viewing the graphs, then the graphs should not be taken as fact - no matter how much we trust Rich.
And this isn't a matter of "I trust Rich and ZOS more than player experience." You and I need not concern ourselves with players' personal evaluations when we have data in front of us. Unfortunately that data is missing key information - which is why I advocate for a time stamp.4 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭koendrenthe8neb18_ESO wrote: »This. Everything on this! At the start this game was all about having the skills and abilities to win a match. Nowadays it's just a equipment fest. The ones with the most expensive outfit wins the match 9/10 times. Please nerf equipment to give them a less bigger impact, because it's frustrating for people who don't want to spend mills of money to get a good set.
Lol. What? You're aware this game has a PVE element to it, right?0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No one distrusts Rich. People are just used to the prudent behavior of understanding the information they are looking at. I am satisfied with what he posted because I think the whole "everyone is using blackrose" thing is riding a whole bunch of forum hype. If you look at the forum traffic on it it all started from a single thread and promulgated over night from there. Large groups of people don't react that fast to build changes, not only that it would only be ideal while solo and I'm certain most are not playing solo. But on the other hand I see nothing wrong with asking for more information. It can only help, it's the only way you can interpret data. It's not a bad thing to have at least some of the conditions of the data.Edited by Armitas on September 17, 2016 5:02PMRetired.
Nord mDK1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭koendrenthe8neb18_ESO wrote: »This. Everything on this! At the start this game was all about having the skills and abilities to win a match. Nowadays it's just a equipment fest. The ones with the most expensive outfit wins the match 9/10 times. Please nerf equipment to give them a less bigger impact, because it's frustrating for people who don't want to spend mills of money to get a good set.
Lol. What? You're aware this game has a PVE element to it, right?
Pffff, sshhh, We need more bodies in Cyrodiil...0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But on the other hand I see nothing wrong with asking for more information.
Just SOME of the problems involved with "more info" :
- More info calls for even more info
- More info could potentially lead to critical confidential information being leaked (like : how many players are currently active), which could impact ZOS tremendously (investors, shareholders, competition, etc.)
- More info could lead to more criticisms, assumptions, extrapolations, hypes, whatever.
While on the other hand "more info" does not necessarily lead to better understanding and quiet crowds.
Therefore I truly appreciate that Rich actually did provide some insight as to how they think and what they take into consideration when making decisions.
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Thelon✭✭✭✭✭
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Fearmongering has Increased to Rank IVanitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »- More info could potentially lead to critical confidential information being leaked (like : how many players are currently active), which could impact ZOS tremendously (investors, shareholders, competition, etc.)
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Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »But on the other hand I see nothing wrong with asking for more information.
Just SOME of the problems involved with "more info" :
- More info calls for even more info
- More info could potentially lead to critical confidential information being leaked (like : how many players are currently active), which could impact ZOS tremendously (investors, shareholders, competition, etc.)
- More info could lead to more criticisms, assumptions, extrapolations, hypes, whatever.
While on the other hand "more info" does not necessarily lead to better understanding and quiet crowds.
Therefore I truly appreciate that Rich actually did provide some insight as to how they think and what they take into consideration when making decisions.
I think they are just asking for step 1, a time stamp right?Edited by Armitas on September 17, 2016 7:04PMRetired.
Nord mDK2 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭Hiero_Glyph wrote: »I feel ashamed of pretentious whiny players who think they know everything about the game, and better than developers too.Very few of these posts were polite, and leaning on the passive aggressive tone. That is not the kind of playerbase we want and such players should not be entertained. Polite requests are welcome but that also doesn't entitle a reply.
^ Thumbs up on these comments as they reflect my feelings about most of these posters.
These pretentious and entitled set of brats think they know everything. I'm happy to see ZoS give them get the smack down they deserve and doing so in a professional manner.
Data is objective and unbiased while player experience is subjective and biased.
It is good to get feedback from players regarding their experiences so that developers can target, pull and analyze the right data. However, objective data analysis needs to be the basis of any adjustments.
This is only half correct, which is part of the problem. Take a racecar for example. While technical data can be use to fine tune its performance, it takes driver feedback to make it optimal. Also, developers are notorious for being bad at playing games. I used to be a tester for what is now one of most well known AAA developers in the business and they were simply awful despite being able to program with the best.
Correction, optimal FOR THAT DRIVER. Now run along and gather some life experience...1 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »But on the other hand I see nothing wrong with asking for more information.
Just SOME of the problems involved with "more info" :
- More info calls for even more info
- More info could potentially lead to critical confidential information being leaked (like : how many players are currently active), which could impact ZOS tremendously (investors, shareholders, competition, etc.)
- More info could lead to more criticisms, assumptions, extrapolations, hypes, whatever.
While on the other hand "more info" does not necessarily lead to better understanding and quiet crowds.
Therefore I truly appreciate that Rich actually did provide some insight as to how they think and what they take into consideration when making decisions.
I think they are just asking for step 1, a time stamp right?
That time stamp question was already answered by Gina:ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Those numbers were pulled yesterday. I saw it happen.
And yes, there will be no harm done when ZOS shares with us some selections of their standard reports to illustrate to us their considerations for certain actions and changes.
Most of us here on the forum are dedicated to this game. We will all welcome it.
but- Asking for info with critical confidentiality consequences is a waste of time
- Feeling entitled to what you want, is putting yourself in another position than you have
- Criticizing the functional quality of the data..... What is that ?..... The denial phase when confronted with a new situation not fitting your perspective ? ... Get over it !
Edited by hrothbern on September 17, 2016 10:48PM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU1 -
TheHsN✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno
hello,
i really dont wanna know about those numbers u shared.
i just wanna know that and i guess many people here want???
there will be any BALANCE Between Magicka And Stanmina builds??????????...IN THIS UPCOMING PATCH (12)
pls just answer that simple YES or NO... Cuz many people wannna know that..
No need to download 180 GB data to answer this.
:):) If u really RESPECT us Here u need to answer this question
Cuz i said Many people here want to know this.
TNX...Edited by TheHsN on September 17, 2016 11:35PMPlays:
Magicka SORC - PvE/PvP
Stamina NB - PvE/PvP
Magicka NB - PvE/PvP
Magicka Templar - PvE
Stamina Templar - PvP
Magicka DK - PvE
Stamina DK - PvE2 -
xXSOEXx✭✭ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
Can you please show the data for PS4 NA or any other console for the manner? it would be much appreciated.
And giving us such knowledge gives us the sense of sharing between Dev and Player so trust me when I tell u that responding "such post" reliefs stress between us players cause that way we know how u guys are doing things and why are u making any decisions towards balancing. So please do give us more knowledge thru time like this because it does help.
Thanks BTW. @ZOS_RichLambert0 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »I am willing to bet that anyone with extensive MMO experience as a player will tell you. If ZOS do not correct it's balance issues soon. And allow the balancing issues to get worst. It will also become a MMO who's servers are only being kept alive by. Huge Pay to Win micro transaction models. Because of the lack of players. That's best case scenario. Worst case is that, they just pull the plug.
I can't say about others, but I'm tired of the balance issues which are some of the worse I've seen in a large scale western MMO. I know at this stage I won't be giving the game more cash and unless something changes me and the few I play with will move right to the first MMO focusing on decent PVP (of which I'm already in beta for one of).
Had a lot of time of work these last few months, managed to get a load of time off and work my normal job off and on while our building goes through some changes and I've run a lot of builds during the day and night. The balance here is awful.0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭koendrenthe8neb18_ESO wrote: »This. Everything on this! At the start this game was all about having the skills and abilities to win a match. Nowadays it's just a equipment fest. The ones with the most expensive outfit wins the match 9/10 times. Please nerf equipment to give them a less bigger impact, because it's frustrating for people who don't want to spend mills of money to get a good set.
At the start of the game It was all about me putting bash damage enchants on my jewelry and smashing your face in with my bash key.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wonder how much of the "i see way more stam builds than mag builds in pvp" or "i see everyone is wearing heavy" is due to perception bias.
You mostly notice people who kill you, not the other way around. If stam builds kill you a lot, but mag builds do not, it will give you the perception that there are lots more stam builds than mag builds. Another factor is that you are more likely to fight 1v1 against a stam build, because the mag builds are running in groups(templar healers etc.) so again the stam builds stand out more.
Similar with heavy armor - when on a gank build, you will notice the targets that you fail to gank much more than those you executed before they could react. Kill 10 easy targets, then face a heavy armor guy 3 times in a row, and you'll leave the PvP session with the felling that "everyone wears damn heavy".
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xellink✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »I am willing to bet that anyone with extensive MMO experience as a player will tell you. If ZOS do not correct it's balance issues soon. And allow the balancing issues to get worst. It will also become a MMO who's servers are only being kept alive by. Huge Pay to Win micro transaction models. Because of the lack of players. That's best case scenario. Worst case is that, they just pull the plug.
I can't say about others, but I'm tired of the balance issues which are some of the worse I've seen in a large scale western MMO.
I agree that there are balance issues but each patch has been a step in the right direction. If you want to compare, you need to look at the Korean and Japanese mmos who have superb balance (once a week) and some have bad balance but we shall leave them out. These dominate the professional player market.
Once a week balances are good if the game is treated like a sport. In these cases, pve and pvp are almost entirely separate. Players unlock traits in pve and then toggle the armor they need with their selected traits in pvp. Balances are made with metashifts in mind. Players don't really explore builds. They are forced out of their comfort zone constantly and that community is damn toxic. If u think the forums here are bad, it's a much worse experience there. Because players can instantly toggle armors and refund skill points for free, the meta shifts really quickly and the game is extremely unfriendly to casuals.
In eso, having weekly balances can be detrimental as cp and attribute point refund has significant cost. This significant cost would deter players from continuing playing due to a shifting goal post. A lot of players in eso are light-heavy rpers who like the game for emersion. They want to take their armors from pve to pvp. A armor trait toggle system in pvp will destroy that emersion. Why would ZOS want to *** off the majority of their player base? Making skill refund and attribute refund is also largely unfavourable. Therefore such a balance system is not feasible.
You are not a professional player and you are not paid for winning games. Why can't you just play with others and have fun?Edited by xellink on September 18, 2016 10:17AM3 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@xellink is quite right. Most players (including me) don't care much about balance, since we don't play competitively. All we want is to be able to choose our playstyle and still be able to complete the content with it, even if it is not meta or min/maxed.
But we absolutely **hate* being forced to "relearn" every major "balance patch". I had to relearn my sorc from A-Z twice already : first time in 1.6, second time with shield nerf and animation prioritization changes. I hate it and don't want to face that for a third time.
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CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »I am willing to bet that anyone with extensive MMO experience as a player will tell you. If ZOS do not correct it's balance issues soon. And allow the balancing issues to get worst. It will also become a MMO who's servers are only being kept alive by. Huge Pay to Win micro transaction models. Because of the lack of players. That's best case scenario. Worst case is that, they just pull the plug.
I can't say about others, but I'm tired of the balance issues which are some of the worse I've seen in a large scale western MMO.
I agree that there are balance issues but each patch has been a step in the right direction.
How is, make stamina stronger, the right direction?
We can all play magic and stamina, it's not hard to swap. My stamina build has more damage, more sustain (thanks to sets like Vipers) and strong healing where I can be back to full health in the space of a single cloak.
My magic build has.. er.. a bubble.. which will maybe protect me, maybe not, who knows. Took me 7 attempts last night to get the damn thing on me.
HOW is balance moving in the right direction? When I play stamina I feel like I'm comical easy mode, when I play magic I feel like I'm pulling my own teeth out because I'm too stubborn to just play my easy mode stamina build.
So balance to you is everyone playing stamina expect Templar's?You are not a professional player and you are not paid for winning games. Why can't you just play with others and have fun?
I really don't know what your point is here...
If you expect some level of balance in a game with two sides of a coin then... what? You're not playing for fun? What?
My stamina build, thanks to crazy sets like Viper (which was trivial to buy) runs more regen, more burst and frankly on par healing than my magic build which as to give up yet more and more damage JUST to stay alive or run more regen.
Your strawman point is, "omg people don't have to have a respec every week".
Balance is not having stamina on top of the pile and THEN adding BRAND new, never before used weapon ultimates which feature stamina ultimates SO far out of whack with sensible thinking and then stating on the PTS that no, the magic ultimates won't be changed to put them better in line with the stamina ulitmates, that you honestly think the development team have gone mad.Edited by CapuchinSeven on September 18, 2016 12:22PM2 -
Dakrana_Thrazvoth✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Feedback from everyone is one very important part, but we also look at hard data and how a change would affect every other part of the game.
Honestly Gina, I've enjoyed many conversations with you and various Devs since Beta. But the claim that you're using "hard data" to determine the affects of various changes is laughable considering the current state of your game.
*****
What hard data did you examine when balancing the CP system? Do passives like unchained look balanced to you?
What hard data did you examine when implementing Battle Spirit, especially in relation to class defining skills like Dragon Blood?
What hard data did you use when implementing a no CP campaign? Did you adjust Streak / Dodge penalties to compensate for 0 CP PvP?
What hard data did you use when implementing crutch sets like Shield breaker? Did you adjust this set after nerfing sorc shields?
What hard data did you use when setting shield duration at 6 seconds? Are your matrices showing an acceptable number of MagSorcs in Cyrodiil?
What hard data did you use when implementing proc sets like Valendrith and Viper? Do you feel these sets increase or decrease the importance of player skill in ESO?
What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?
What hard data did you use when buffing Soul Assault? Is another long-range, undodgeable beam encouraging or discouraging smart counter-play in ESO's PvP?
What hard data did you use that allowed gap closers to exist in their current state? Has banning players for using a mechanic you developed helped to address the underlying mechanical issues?
What hard data did you use to balance Masters and Maelstrom weapons for Magicka and Stamina users? Do you feel that Magicka users benefit from their vMA weapons as much as Stamina users do from theirs?
What hard data did you use when deciding that multiple poisons should apply on one person? Do you feel zerglings need additional advantages to be successful in 20 v 2 situations?
What hard data did you use when implementing Rally and Vigour? Do you feel stam builds need a burst heal from their offensive weapon (Rally) and a passive heal (Vigour) whose ticks surpasses a DKs burst heal?
What hard data did you use when deciding that Bound Armor would remain a toggle? That Storm Atronach would be the only Atronach in the game that can be CC'd?
What hard data did you reference that led you to decide that Streak should be the only CLASS DEFINING SKILL in the game that punishes the user for casting it more than once? Why is the same not true for other class defining skills like cloak, BoL and Wings?
*****
I hope you understand why the community might have a tough time understanding your use of "hard data." The current state of ESO leads me to believe that either:
a) you don't use hard data, or
b) you do use hard data, but lack the competence to use it effectively, or
c) you do use hard data and have the competence to use it effectively, but lack the monetary incentive to do so
"Men are more important than tools. If you don't believe so, put a good tool into the hands of a poor workman."
- John J. Bernet
What hard data did you use for post something like that ?
Personally, I just read someone who said his own opinion, nothing really objective.2 -
Astanphaeus✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
I'm sure someone has probably already said something along these lines, but I don't so much question that the developers are using hard data to make their changes. Where I see a problem is a severe lack in ability to interpret that data and do anything more than a bandaid fix.
Such as with what you referenced here with the heavy armor usage; of course heavy armor is under-used. You've designed a PvP meta where all classes (except mDKs, which is probably why you are seeing a heavy armor preference on DKs) can do high amount of burst damage and if they fail, they can just dodge roll or heal themselves out of trouble using their primary resource stat and don't need those raw defensive stats. So instead of thinking about how you can improve the meta, you decide, "Let's make it so stam users don't really have to sacrifice anything to get those raw defensive stats!" You simultaneously introduced some stam sets that are medium armor that do a stupid amount of burst damage, so yeah, not everyone is going to switch, but this is not how the problem should have been fixed.
And the light armor bias on 501+CP doesn't surprise me either. It's still the only way to play most magicka characters correctly and magicka used to just be more fun. 501+CP players are going to be your older base, and we are stuck with trying to use our characters who just can't compete on equal footing or starting over again which is something many of us find absolutely abhorrent to think about. Many PvPers absolutely hate the PvE grind that is required for new toon, plus we have to give up our alliance war ranking.
So like I said, I don't doubt that you look at hard data when you are making your decisions, I unfortunately just don't think you have any clue what you are doing with that data.5 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭Astanphaeus wrote: »ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
I'm sure someone has probably already said something along these lines, but I don't so much question that the developers are using hard data to make their changes. Where I see a problem is a severe lack in ability to interpret that data and do anything more than a bandaid fix.
Such as with what you referenced here with the heavy armor usage; of course heavy armor is under-used. You've designed a PvP meta where all classes (except mDKs, which is probably why you are seeing a heavy armor preference on DKs) can do high amount of burst damage and if they fail, they can just dodge roll or heal themselves out of trouble using their primary resource stat and don't need those raw defensive stats. So instead of thinking about how you can improve the meta, you decide, "Let's make it so stam users don't really have to sacrifice anything to get those raw defensive stats!" You simultaneously introduced some stam sets that are medium armor that do a stupid amount of burst damage, so yeah, not everyone is going to switch, but this is not how the problem should have been fixed.
And the light armor bias on 501+CP doesn't surprise me either. It's still the only way to play most magicka characters correctly and magicka used to just be more fun. 501+CP players are going to be your older base, and we are stuck with trying to use our characters who just can't compete on equal footing or starting over again which is something many of us find absolutely abhorrent to think about. Many PvPers absolutely hate the PvE grind that is required for new toon, plus we have to give up our alliance war ranking.
So like I said, I don't doubt that you look at hard data when you are making your decisions, I unfortunately just don't think you have any clue what you are doing with that data.
This, it's spot on the truth, that's without even the raised eyebrow I had when a green post some how suggested that they "probably shouldn't respond". What other type of post SHOULD they respond to?! The ones that pat them on the back?
Everything you said here went through my mind as well so I won't repeart it, but yes, spot on. I'm not shocked by that data at all. I AM shocked at how badly they seem to be able to read it, which again makes me feel like (and it's an age old saying but really feels like it) they just plain don't play the game.1 -
Calboy✭✭✭✭✭Wow. These forums are terrible. A dev actually responds with hard data about the game and people are questioning it because certain people influence a majority to moan about the fotm moan because their setup isn't killing people quick enough.2 -
xellink✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »CapuchinSeven wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »I am willing to bet that anyone with extensive MMO experience as a player will tell you. If ZOS do not correct it's balance issues soon. And allow the balancing issues to get worst. It will also become a MMO who's servers are only being kept alive by. Huge Pay to Win micro transaction models. Because of the lack of players. That's best case scenario. Worst case is that, they just pull the plug.
I can't say about others, but I'm tired of the balance issues which are some of the worse I've seen in a large scale western MMO.
I agree that there are balance issues but each patch has been a step in the right direction.
How is, make stamina stronger, the right direction?
We can all play magic and stamina, it's not hard to swap. My stamina build has more damage, more sustain (thanks to sets like Vipers) and strong healing where I can be back to full health in the space of a single cloak.
My magic build has.. er.. a bubble.. which will maybe protect me, maybe not, who knows. Took me 7 attempts last night to get the damn thing on me.
HOW is balance moving in the right direction? When I play stamina I feel like I'm comical easy mode, when I play magic I feel like I'm pulling my own teeth out because I'm too stubborn to just play my easy mode stamina build.
So balance to you is everyone playing stamina expect Templar's?You are not a professional player and you are not paid for winning games. Why can't you just play with others and have fun?
I really don't know what your point is here...
If you expect some level of balance in a game with two sides of a coin then... what? You're not playing for fun? What?
My stamina build, thanks to crazy sets like Viper (which was trivial to buy) runs more regen, more burst and frankly on par healing than my magic build which as to give up yet more and more damage JUST to stay alive or run more regen.
Your strawman point is, "omg people don't have to have a respec every week".
Balance is not having stamina on top of the pile and THEN adding BRAND new, never before used weapon ultimates which feature stamina ultimates SO far out of whack with sensible thinking and then stating on the PTS that no, the magic ultimates won't be changed to put them better in line with the stamina ulitmates, that you honestly think the development team have gone mad.
Let me remind you of the time sorcs were overpowered with shield stacking. If this is not a minor step in the right direction what is?
Anyway spell targeting sounds like a bug rather than a balance issue.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
And this is exactly what i expected to be happening over at ZOS.
You don´t even realize that you´ve reinforced every point made in the topic with this example of "hard data". You can not look at the average number of you´re whole server population (or even parts of that like 531 cp capped players).
These can at best give slight indications of balancing problems (i bet even when heavy was absolute garbage back in the days there was a considerable amount of players using it anyways because they simply wanted to play a knight in armor).
To actually identify problems in balancing you have to look at the overperforming (and underperforming) things at the very end of the normal curve. Interesting for balance are the cases where everything is purely chosen (or ignored) in relation to performance.
Another problem raised with your approach is alternatives (or the lack of). Lets jump into the topic by playing a quick game of: How you can possibly evaluate the state of destruction staves at all with your approach to balancing.
There are no alternatives offered by the game - if you want an offensive based magica weapon you´re wearing a destruction staff - period (let´s ignore your internal joke of destro staves actually being three different weapons for this one because if anyone truely believed that someone would have to explain me the state of ice staves backed up by your "hard data" in regards to endgame activities).
Your internal metrics will obviously show destro staffs are in a great state because every magica DD and their mother are using them. This gets reinforced by playerfeedback - or the lack thereof. There is no reference point for players to give feedback on.
Players: "Destro staves are horse droppings."
ZOS: "Compared to what? Why is everyone using them when they´re so bad - duh."
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
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Let me remind you of the time sorcs were overpowered with shield stacking. If this is not a minor step in the right direction what is?
Anyway spell targeting sounds like a bug rather than a balance issue.
sooooo sorcs had overpowered shield stacking so... now one shotting...?
Sorry I'm not getting your point.
ESO balance is one extreme to the other?1
This discussion has been closed.