What is the big deal with Black Rose?

Vrathak · September 2016

Actual mats from cp150.

7 heavy armor pieces constitution bonus without BR: 1284

7 heavy armor pieces constitution bonus with BR: 1796

Difference in constitution regen: 512 every 4 seconds.

Difference translated in actual stam regen equivalent: 256.

And you have to be hit for it to work, no out of combat regen there.

So 256 stam/magicka regen increase from BR.... Yes... It definetely needs a nerf because we all know 256 stat recovery every 2 seconds when castin abilities costing over 2k at least twice in that time definitely makes you sustain no problem. 4K cost (minimum).. 256 return from BR...

OP AS F***!!!!! NERF IT NOOOOWWW!!!!

*drops the mic and leaves*

Sigtric · September 2016

Baranthus wrote: »

What is so great about this armour that it makes grown adults go into meltdown? Layman's terms and acronym - free replies please. Ta.

It is statistically and scientifically proven to give bad PVPers Melanoma and Glioblastoma.

Sharee · September 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Posting this video in this BR thread aswell, its very informative to why its op. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZoLPbPYBz0

The guy in the video claims it is OP because a magicka DK can permablock when wearing the set.

When your block, your stamina regen is zero, all you get is constitution returns, which is at best 1820 stamina every 4 seconds. When blocking, your stamina is being drained (up to) every 0.5 seconds. 1820stam/4s means on average you gain 227stam/0.5s.

So to permablock you would need to reduce your block cost down to 227. Is that even possible? If you dedicate all your jewelry to block cost reduction, all your traits to sturdy, and sacrifice a slot for defensive posture... maybe. But i don't know what such a build would be able to achieve in PvP except for the blocking.

Abob · September 2016

Strongest heavy armor set is reactive, not black rose.

incognito222 · September 2016

Another point to consider is that so many players run Redguard in PVP as it is considered one of the best for stamina resource sustain.

Redguard passive (adrenaline rush) + Black Rose 5 pc constitution bonus = possibly causing people to think Black Rose is overpowered on the stamina sustain side.

Why not do a test on PTS and see how non Redguard races perform. It may be unwise to quickly single out Black Rose if indeed the cause for the high stamina sustain (during combat) is also due to the Redguard racial passive.

It is always easier to blame a particular set because it is the first to be noticed, whereas in reality often there are other factors at play.

I tried using the set on an Imperial Race and found that I needed to periodically (almost half of the time) weave in heavy attacks in PVP to not run out of stamina as break free, blocks and dodge rolls cost so much stamina (this was with one max level stam cost reduction enchant on CP 160 jewellery).

Admittedly, I'm an average player so my findings may not portray the full potential of this set.

Sharee · September 2016

incognito222 wrote: »

Another point to consider is that so many players run Redguard in PVP as it is considered one of the best for stamina resource sustain.

Redguard passive (adrenaline rush) + Black Rose 5 pc constitution bonus = possibly causing people to think Black Rose is overpowered on the stamina sustain side.

That's a good point. Lets have a look.

Black rose 5-piece bonus adds 520 stamina every 4 seconds, so 130 stam/s on average.

Redguard passive restores 3% of max stamina every 5 seconds, so on average 0.6% max stamina per second.
This means redguard passive will match the black rose regen if 0.6% of the redguards max stamina equals 130 stam.
130 is 0.6% of 21666.

TLDR: When it comes to stamina regen, the redguard passive is better than the black rose set bonus if the redguard has more than 21666 max stamina - which pretty much every redguard stam build beats by a large margin (i have 18300 max stam on a dark elf magicka DK). On a 44k stamina build, the redguard passive would be twice as good as the black rose bonus.

Mustard · September 2016

I still think reactive is better if you have good resource management

incognito222 · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

incognito222 wrote: »

Another point to consider is that so many players run Redguard in PVP as it is considered one of the best for stamina resource sustain.

Redguard passive (adrenaline rush) + Black Rose 5 pc constitution bonus = possibly causing people to think Black Rose is overpowered on the stamina sustain side.

That's a good point. Lets have a look.

Black rose 5-piece bonus adds 520 stamina every 4 seconds, so 130 stam/s on average.

Redguard passive restores 3% of max stamina every 5 seconds, so on average 0.6% max stamina per second.
This means redguard passive will match the black rose regen if 0.6% of the redguards max stamina equals 130 stam.
130 is 0.6% of 21666.

TLDR: When it comes to stamina regen, the redguard passive is better than the black rose set bonus if the redguard has more than 21666 max stamina - which pretty much every redguard stam build beats by a large margin (i have 18300 max stam on a dark elf magicka DK). On a 44k stamina build, the redguard passive would be twice as good as the black rose bonus.

Thanks for the numbers @Sharee , definitely an eye opener ...

Lokey0024 · September 2016

Vrathak wrote: »

Actual mats from cp150.

7 heavy armor pieces constitution bonus without BR: 1284

7 heavy armor pieces constitution bonus with BR: 1796

Difference in constitution regen: 512 every 4 seconds.

Difference translated in actual stam regen equivalent: 256.

And you have to be hit for it to work, no out of combat regen there.

So 256 stam/magicka regen increase from BR.... Yes... It definetely needs a nerf because we all know 256 stat recovery every 2 seconds when castin abilities costing over 2k at least twice in that time definitely makes you sustain no problem. 4K cost (minimum).. 256 return from BR...

OP AS F***!!!!! NERF IT NOOOOWWW!!!!

*drops the mic and leaves*

Read. Learn.

BruhItsOver9000 · September 2016

Black rose is a very strong set for HA but not the worst. Fasalla's guile is OP, 5 Fasalla's guile 5 vipers sting 2 velidreth, instant death to your enemy. Fasalla's guile is an underrated set, I've used black rose and it's not that great.

Fasalla's guile is the set that needs to be nerfed not black rose.

Cronopoly · September 2016

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Black rose is a very strong set for HA but not the worst. Fasalla's guile is OP, 5 Fasalla's guile 5 vipers sting 2 velidreth, instant death to your enemy. Fasalla's guile is an underrated set, I've used black rose and it's not that great.

Fasalla's guile is the set that needs to be nerfed not black rose.

Admittedly Fasalla's does not kill by itself. The Combination of those sets is of course very strong and Fasallas just tops it off with the Defile proc. If Fasallas was nerfed several other sets could still synergize well with Viper, Velidreth and people would continue to Gib others...Eternal Hunt, Widowmaker etc...

If there was no Fasallas some could run 1h/Sh for Defile that way and adjust. Actually some already do I'm sure.

Sharee · September 2016

Fasalla is overrated as well, IMHO. There is a scenario where it is very powerful - mass zerg clash where everyone is spamming aoes and heals, if you wear fasalla and stand in the middle of it, you will severely debuff the enemy force.

But in a 1v1? Consider this.

You wear fasalla. I hit you with a skill. Now i am heal debuffed for 2 seconds. However, my abilities are on a 1 second cooldown, since i just used one. That mean in the next second, i cannot cast a heal anyway. Basically, 50% of the debuff duration is wasted.

It is still dangerous, especially when you rely on a heal over time like vigor, since you cannot continue attacking while vigor ticks on you. But against a templar BoL, it does not work as well as it might seem at first glance.

Lokey0024 · September 2016

Fasalas stacks with defile.

Read. Learn

arkansas_ESO · September 2016

Baranthus wrote: »

What is so great about this armour that it makes grown adults go into meltdown? Layman's terms and acronym - free replies please. Ta.

It allows normally squishy DPS a way to exchange a little bit of damage for a lot of survivability. That's pretty much it, the whole issue is it allows you to have the best of a DPS (high damage) and the best of a tank (high survivability) at once. I say this as somebody who runs Black Rose on every one of his stamina characters--it's just so much better than the alternatives.

Calboy · September 2016

I run blackrose on my orc stam sorc and I'm always going out of stamina and having to top up with dark deal and that's with almost 1500 regen unbuffered. I think the issue isn't black rose but the fact most stamina tools are redguard as well as stated earlier in this thread.

Vrathak · September 2016

*picks up the mic again*

Also think about this:

My stam blade build:

s/s Black rose redguard poping spihoning strikes with double anim cancel (LA + skill + Bash)

the regen is out of this world with that.

*Throws it in a pool full of laser headed sharks and leaves*

SkylarkX · September 2016

The thing about the redguard passive is that you've gotta spend money to make money, and to make the regen figures people are quoting you have to hit something at close range from a set list of abilities (which doesn't include gap closers or spin to win) at the exact 5 second cooldown.

I can tell you for free that in pvp at least it doesn't work like that, and in a different way the same goes for the black rose - if you don't get hit for a few seconds after the cooldown ends you're getting a negative return compared to a medium build with any actual stamina regen. That's not to mention when there's a short gap between combat and you're going in dry to the next fight.

I play a redguard dk and have a set of black rose, I encourage people to find out for themselves. Unless you're used to playing with your resources below the red line it's not as amazing as people think.

Xsorus · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Fasalla is overrated as well, IMHO. There is a scenario where it is very powerful - mass zerg clash where everyone is spamming aoes and heals, if you wear fasalla and stand in the middle of it, you will severely debuff the enemy force.

But in a 1v1? Consider this.

You wear fasalla. I hit you with a skill. Now i am heal debuffed for 2 seconds. However, my abilities are on a 1 second cooldown, since i just used one. That mean in the next second, i cannot cast a heal anyway. Basically, 50% of the debuff duration is wasted.

It is still dangerous, especially when you rely on a heal over time like vigor, since you cannot continue attacking while vigor ticks on you. But against a templar BoL, it does not work as well as it might seem at first glance.

Basically any class that relies on hots gets hurt by Fasalla, but you do need more then just it...

Mojomonkeyman · September 2016

Sharee, im a big fan of your analytical contributions to this forum. But I think you really don`t understand PvP dynamics enough to judge here. PvP is not a numbers game in the sense of "math will tell me whether a set is op".

PvP doesnt work like that. All the sets you are claiming to be not as strong here, dominate PvP if played correctly. Most good players I know can make fasalla builds that are literally unbeatable by most setups, no matter if 1v1, 1vX, duo or whatever. If you are on EU I`m happy to provide evidence in form of actual playing. Fasalla is in the malubad league of strong.

Blackrose is not in on that level, but its certainly one of the stronger sets in the game (PvP). Unhealthy strong. Same goes for reactive, transmutation and others. I have all those sets in gold quality, since I love testing and I am pretty confident to get the max PvP potential out of them.

Most people in this thread crying for maths to prove anything PvP related know very little about PvP and ESO PvP in particular. Just look up Waffennachts posts for example, no offense, and see what kind of questions he recently asked in this forum. He is not an experiencd player, yet trying to give "insights" and form opinions wherever he can.

This forum is in dire need of a skill check for posting rights.

BR

leepalmer95 · September 2016

People are forgetting that in order to sustain with medium you have to actually spec into regen, you have to throw like 75 cp into it you need to give up like 3x set bonus for medium or give up enchantments.

Thats 3x bonus that a heavy armour build could use for damage, max stam or wpn dmg.

On console if you block, bash or dodge roll you lose the regen ticks.

Heavy gives both Magicka and Stamina sustain, people tend to forget that, on medium builds in order to use your utility of magicka such as wings/ cloak/ fear/ dark deal etc... you need to spec into that as well.

Cost reduction in cp is more effective when in heavy as well...

Sharee · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Most good players I know can make fasalla builds that are literally unbeatable by most setups, no matter if 1v1, 1vX, duo or whatever. If you are on EU I`m happy to provide evidence in form of actual playing. Fasalla is in the malubad league of strong.

Maybe it's just because i am looking at it from the perspective of a heavy mDK, but from my experience wearing fasalla, when an enemy gets pressured they usually go on defensive. A vigor stamina build starts rolling around/cloaking while vigor is ticking, which means they stop hitting me. A BoL templar starts spamming BoL, a sorcerer bolts away and lets healing ward pop. Against neither of these does a 1 sec. effective debuff help.

Fasalla only helps against enemies who try to stay on the offensive while damaged and rely on HOTs like vigor or heal-on-hit abilities like templar jabs (or embers spam i guess even tho its rare to fight a mDK). But the majority (vast majority) of my opponents simply disengages and shields/heals before they continue to attack me, making my fasalla bonus go unused.

Mojomonkeyman · September 2016

For me thats one of those situations were you just have to witness someone max abuse the set(up) and see for yourself. It certainly is up there with malubad. I could write books on how fights play out, but you still would`t believe me since its just another story on the forums...

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Most good players I know can make fasalla builds that are literally unbeatable by most setups, no matter if 1v1, 1vX, duo or whatever. If you are on EU I`m happy to provide evidence in form of actual playing. Fasalla is in the malubad league of strong.

Maybe it's just because i am looking at it from the perspective of a heavy mDK, but from my experience wearing fasalla, when an enemy gets pressured they usually go on defensive. A vigor stamina build starts rolling around/cloaking while vigor is ticking, which means they stop hitting me. A BoL templar starts spamming BoL, a sorcerer bolts away and lets healing ward pop. Against neither of these does a 1 sec. effective debuff help.

Fasalla only helps against enemies who try to stay on the offensive while damaged and rely on HOTs like vigor or heal-on-hit abilities like templar jabs (or embers spam i guess even tho its rare to fight a mDK). But the majority (vast majority) of my opponents simply disengages and shields/heals before they continue to attack me, making my fasalla bonus go unused.

Fasalla works on dots, if they throw caltraps down, if a sorc has hurricane up, if they have poisons, msa wep dots, etc... they can't heal.

Sharee · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Most good players I know can make fasalla builds that are literally unbeatable by most setups, no matter if 1v1, 1vX, duo or whatever. If you are on EU I`m happy to provide evidence in form of actual playing. Fasalla is in the malubad league of strong.

Maybe it's just because i am looking at it from the perspective of a heavy mDK, but from my experience wearing fasalla, when an enemy gets pressured they usually go on defensive. A vigor stamina build starts rolling around/cloaking while vigor is ticking, which means they stop hitting me. A BoL templar starts spamming BoL, a sorcerer bolts away and lets healing ward pop. Against neither of these does a 1 sec. effective debuff help.

Fasalla only helps against enemies who try to stay on the offensive while damaged and rely on HOTs like vigor or heal-on-hit abilities like templar jabs (or embers spam i guess even tho its rare to fight a mDK). But the majority (vast majority) of my opponents simply disengages and shields/heals before they continue to attack me, making my fasalla bonus go unused.

Fasalla works on dots, if they throw caltraps down, if a sorc has hurricane up, if they have poisons, msa wep dots, etc... they can't heal.

It does not work on single-target DOTs.

Fasalla’s Guile: This item set no longer procs its healing debuff from single-target damage over time effects. Area damage over time effects from abilities such as Caltrops will still trigger the effect.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2717024#Comment_2717024

I honestly can't remember when was the last time someone used caltrops on me in a 1v1. Today it's just rearming traps everywhere.

xellink · September 2016

Please don't nerf Fasalla... T.T

olsborg · September 2016

Black rose should have one max magicka bonus instead of 2 max stam bonuses, that way it would be more balanced for magicka or stamina builds.

Mr_Nobody · September 2016

In short:

You lose some general resources regained which are more or less the same in combat, and some weapon damage which is also more or less the same during the fight.

Now, you lose cents, but gain the World. You gain insane amounts of Magicka to use your whatever spells, be it Purify or Dark Deal and get insane amount of Tankyness & General stats.

I had a Magicka Sorc that I never played, changed its race to Redguard and equipped the above meta-stamina build. What do I have to say? Easy peasy PvP. In comparison to what i have to sacrifice on my Magicka templar just to deal big damage, i sacrifice basically nothing while using Black Rose and still 1 shot people left and right.

#balance

xellink · September 2016

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

In short:

You lose some general resources regained which are more or less the same in combat, and some weapon damage which is also more or less the same during the fight.

Now, you lose cents, but gain the World. You gain insane amounts of Magicka to use your whatever spells, be it Purify or Dark Deal and get insane amount of Tankyness & General stats.

I had a Magicka Sorc that I never played, changed its race to Redguard and equipped the above meta-stamina build. What do I have to say? Easy peasy PvP. In comparison to what i have to sacrifice on my Magicka templar just to deal big damage, i sacrifice basically nothing while using Black Rose and still 1 shot people left and right.

#balance

the reason why you 1 shot people left and right is because the current meta is 64M or 64S. This means its not balanced at all. Give the game some time to metashift...

Brutusmax1mus · September 2016

Why are people using the armor passives at all? Had nothing to do with black rose. To get the bonus of "op" black rose you have to subtract what heavy armor would already give from the 40% Constitution bonus. Which amber plasam gives more than that and it's constant regen which doesn't involve getting hit.

The set is not op. It is good though.

Kas · September 2016

It's a well-though out set that interacts with a passive that is currently extremely strong.

The whole combination just performs very well (too well) compared to other sets. While under attack and wearing 7piece HA, you get stam and mag back roughly equivalent to 950reg. This means the fifth bonus of black rose gives you a little more than 300stam AND mag reg AND 154 weapon/spell damage.

In comparison, sets like amber-plasm and especially warlock seem like a bad joke. that said, other sets with special purposes are kinda competetive, if you ask me. fasalla, viper, vicious death, eternal hunt, etc - all those can still be worth it. still, one problem remains: if you can manage in heavy armor and want raw stats, black rose is just much better than everything else