What is the big deal with Black Rose?

Bam_Bam

What is so great about this armour that it makes grown adults go into meltdown? Layman's terms and acronym - free replies please. Ta.

Waffennacht

They will say it allows a "glass cannon" dps build go straight into HA without needing adjustment. Apparently the 50% boost is enough to compensate the loss of medium armor regen and cost reduction (I don't buy that for a moment personally) and adds damage...

Personally I don't get it either. x2 max stam and x1 health can be achieved with all sorts of sets (and imo kinda worthless) 150 weapon damage is ok (less than Molag Tong tho) and I also don't see how the return compensates.

Math, if the IC is .33 secs or even .5 sec that means 20% savings on a 2000 costing move means you "gain" 800 stam per sec... or 3200 stam in 4 secs (almost triple HA return) and gain stam regen.

Mathematically it's impossible for the HA return with black rose can compare to the stam savings of medium. Some may say magicka return too... but I don't know many dps builds that use enough magicka on a stam build to have this passive,do anything great

Czirne

With 5 black rose pieces you'll have approx 1300 stamina and magicka back when hit, once per 4 sec. that is basicly 650 regen (with 7 heavy its over 1800 per hit = 900 regen). In current meta lots of people run low regen and favor damage, with black rose you can ignore regen completely, and still have very good suistain(even when blocking). You loose some weapon damage and crit, but you get some tankines.
When you stam build, you have almost infinite magicka for your support magicka abilities, and when you magicka, you gen lots of stamina back for blocking, cc break etc.
Heavy armor itself is imho balanced and viable, but black rose 5 piece boosts constitution passive by 40% and its very strong.
When playing right way, Black Rose set gives you best suistain in game.

Waffennacht

"When playing right way, Black Rose set gives you best suistain in game."

I have yet to see any math to support this claim

Lexxypwns

Waffennacht wrote: »

"When playing right way, Black Rose set gives you best suistain in game."

I have yet to see any math to support this claim

With the bonus regain from heavy attacks and the fact that you can heavy attack-skill animation cancel to help build some burst, Black rose grants plenty of sustain, despite the lack of inherent cost reduction or regen boni. The reason for this, is, without base cost reduction from armor type, your cost reduction CP tree becomes more efficient, allowing you to spread CP between magician/arcanist or their stamina equivalents in a way that limits diminishing returns, it also opens up tenacity(I believe) as a viable CP star since the resource return on heavy attacks stacks with the passive from heavy armor.

Black rose doesn't give you the best sustain, but it gives you enough sustain to never run out of resources, while also adding weapon/spell damage, most sets are a poison pill of sorts, where you either build for damage or sustain, Black Rose allows you to build all the sustain you need, while giving you damage, AND allowing you to use all your other equipment sets to further build that damage because your sustain is enough.

That being said, I don't have a problem with Black Rose, you do sacrifice some mobility as a stam build running black rose as opposed to medium armor.

AfkNinja

Waffennacht wrote: »

"When playing right way, Black Rose set gives you best suistain in game."

I have yet to see any math to support this claim

They can't provide math to back that claim up because it's false. It doesn't offer the best sustain and tanks hard if you aren't getting hit every four seconds. People are just mad at heavy armor cause it prevents them from instagibbing some people. Black rose only offers a 40% increase on constitution, it's not 650 regen, people always conveniently forget the regen gained just by using normal heavy armor. It's closer to like 280 regen and 150 wep dmg which isn't crazy or anything. There are some new sets coming which are much better.

Czirne

Waffennacht wrote: »

"When playing right way, Black Rose set gives you best suistain in game."

I have yet to see any math to support this claim

Let me correct my statement:
"when playing right way, and you're stamina build and redguard, black rose gives you best suistain:damage ratio in game"

I dont have any math to support this claim, I'll try to explain.
You loose 12% bonus weapon damage, but you get 200 weapon damage in fight, that means in reality you loose 150-300 wd, depends on build you running.
You loose cost reduction, but you can balance it out with cp, and heavy atack restore you 50% more stamina than heavy atack in medium armor. here you go, skill cost somewhat compensated.
You loose some crit, but you get more resistances(maybe compensated? not sure).
in addition, you restore 1300-1800 stamina AND magicka every 4 second, while hit of course.

I said "when playing right" - you have to heavy attack more than you would in medium, and dodgeroll less(block instead, constitution hives you resources even when you are blocking). When you adjust your playstyle, this set gives you great suistain.

tplink3r1

Czirne wrote: »

You loose 12% bonus weapon damage, but you get 200 weapon damage in fight, that means in reality you loose 150-300.

That damage buff is almost never fully active in PVP.

And no, it doesn't provide more regen than medium or light armor. In fact, the regen from medium alone is already better than constitution.

Waffennacht

Keep in mind in your situations, you would be heavy attacking with medium armor too, also gain resources back, (btw the tenacity tree increase a percentage of a percentage, so if it gives you 10% back, it's actually just a tiny fraction, like 3%, like the befoul tree)

Black Rose isn't bad, (it would be horrid though without the 150 wpn damage) it's not Over Powered though.

Also if you're using CP to make up the difference you're losing whatever those points were in before (so tenacity means less crit damage or less melee damage or less DoT damage or less penetration)

I cannot see, in any situation, where Black Rose HA would surpass the dmg or regen of say, medium eternal hunt. 150 wpn damage will increase an attack by approximately 500 damage, meaning even a 4k dmg attack... every 4secs, would equate to the gain of 200 wpn dmg (more than black rose) and have better sustain.

AfkNinja

Czirne wrote: »

I don't have any math to support this claim

ku5h

i

Waffennacht

Um Molag tong gives way more weapon dmg and being medium would bring your 1300 to almost 1600 every 2 secs with no conditions that need to be met. Plus cost reduction

Hunt gives 260 regen and 8k dmg "attack" (which is worth OVER 200 wpn dmg) and can be medium

Alchemist gives 800 wpn dmg all together

kadar

AfkNinja wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

I don't have any math to support this claim

I'd love to see math to refute this claim as well.

Sharee

Take a stamina skill that costs 3000 stamina. In medium armor with 21% cost reduction, using that skill every second you "gain" 630 stamina every second (3000*0.21=630).

Doing the same in full black rose, you gain 1820 stamina every 4 second, or 455 stamina every second.

Right there, the medium armor is already pulling ~40% ahead, and we still did not account for the 28% stamina regeneration bonus.

Then, full black rose gives a 50% bonus on the stamina returned on heavy attack. But how much stamina is that actually in absolute numbers? Is it enough to compensate for a 28% stamina regen bonus of medium armor *and* for the ~40% lead described above? I have serious doubts about that.

Plus, the whole black rose hype goes into the gutter as soon as the one wearing it stops getting hit every 4 seconds, for example because in a 2v2, both opponents focused on your partner and you are not getting hit at all. Then all you can do is watch him get killed while your resources are dry, and then watch yourself get killed next.

And there are other considerations, too. Take for example major evasion. For a medium armor build, it is pure win. For a black rose build, it actually causes you to lose resources because an evaded attack does not trigger constitution resource returns.

AfkNinja

Czirne wrote: »

I don't have any math to support this claim

The_Outsider wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

I don't have any math to support this claim

I'd love to see math to refute this claim as well.

I'm not the one making a claim Black Rose is over-performing. The burden of proof is always on the accuser.

Pandorii

Sharee wrote: »

Take a stamina skill that costs 3000 stamina. In medium armor with 21% cost reduction, using that skill every second you "gain" 630 stamina every second (3000*0.21=630).

Doing the same in full black rose, you gain 1820 stamina every 4 second, or 455 stamina every second.

Right there, the medium armor is already pulling ~40% ahead, and we still did not account for the 28% stamina regeneration bonus.

Then, full black rose gives a 50% bonus on the stamina returned on heavy attack. But how much stamina is that actually in absolute numbers? Is it enough to compensate for a 28% stamina regen bonus of medium armor *and* for the ~40% lead described above? I have serious doubts about that.

Plus, the whole black rose hype goes into the gutter as soon as the one wearing it stops getting hit every 4 seconds, for example because in a 2v2, both opponents focused on your partner and you are not getting hit at all. Then all you can do is watch him get killed while your resources are dry, and then watch yourself get killed next.

Your analysis doesn't include all the benefits of heavy armor over medium armor. Increased physical and spell resistance, increased armor value, max health, and weapon dmg/spell damage gained when you take damage.


The way I see it, some people in PvP were already preferring heavy armor over medium armor (pre-black rose) for the extra survivability. With so many super strong one shot skills, it doesn't matter how impressive your stats are, a dead pvper is a dead pvper. The 5 piece black rose bonus was the icing on the cake.

I don't think the comparison should be between medium armor and heavy armor, because you'd be comparing apples to oranges. How can you value physical and spell resistance compared to regen? I think it's more about comparing the 5 piece bonus to other set 5 piece bonuses. Even then, remember that with black rose, you can still wear another 5 piece (like viper) with jewelry.

*Black Rose is also useful for magicka types. The gap between armor value of light armor is 1/4 of heavy armor.

Czirne

AfkNinja wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

I don't have any math to support this claim

Look, i dont wanna argue here. I speak from my experience, i tried Black Rose on stam dk orc, and had beter suistain than with medium hunding rage. With max hp+max stam food and all weapon enchant glyphs(and bloodspawn) my base stamina regen around 650, and those 21% more regen from medium armor passives(5-1-1) made it 800ish.
With black rose on my stamina management was easier, and damage was not much lower(with shadow mundus).
That extra magicka from constitution allowed me to use helping hands passive more often.

So yes, i dont have any math, i dont care about it. I tried it, i felt difference.
Im not telling it works for every build out there, i said im my first comment "when playing right way". Of course when you have stamina regen on your gear/enchants and using serpent mundus, your base stamina regen is more, therefore you get more regen from medium armor passives, but you probably loosing some max stats/weapon damage.
point is with black rose on i could easily invest all to damage and max stamina, have a shadow mundus and suistain better than in hunding medium.

Sharee

Pandorii wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Take a stamina skill that costs 3000 stamina. In medium armor with 21% cost reduction, using that skill every second you "gain" 630 stamina every second (3000*0.21=630).

Doing the same in full black rose, you gain 1820 stamina every 4 second, or 455 stamina every second.

Right there, the medium armor is already pulling ~40% ahead, and we still did not account for the 28% stamina regeneration bonus.

Then, full black rose gives a 50% bonus on the stamina returned on heavy attack. But how much stamina is that actually in absolute numbers? Is it enough to compensate for a 28% stamina regen bonus of medium armor *and* for the ~40% lead described above? I have serious doubts about that.

Plus, the whole black rose hype goes into the gutter as soon as the one wearing it stops getting hit every 4 seconds, for example because in a 2v2, both opponents focused on your partner and you are not getting hit at all. Then all you can do is watch him get killed while your resources are dry, and then watch yourself get killed next.

Your analysis doesn't include all the benefits of heavy armor over medium armor. Increased physical and spell resistance, increased armor value, max health, and weapon dmg/spell damage gained when you take damage.

But it also does not include all the benefits of *medium* armor, like reduced dodge roll costs, which arguably is the best defense in the game atm, far outperforming heavy armor resistance(there is no "penetration of dodge"), and saving you way more health in the long run than heavy ever could. And, of course, the "allways there, no need to take damage first" 12% weapon damage bonus which is also superior to what heavy gets.

Pandorii wrote: »

The way I see it, some people in PvP were already preferring heavy armor over medium armor (pre-black rose) for the extra survivability. With so many super strong one shot skills, it doesn't matter how impressive your stats are, a dead pvper is a dead pvper. The 5 piece black rose bonus was the icing on the cake.

Right. Basically, the only real advantage of heavy is the fact that you cannot be easily killed before you are able to react to the attack. Which is also the reason it is so often complained about by those used to such easy kills.

Vangy

Black rose is just good in this meta cos it's good against those viper veli cheese blades and mag bombers. It's a well rounded set that focuses on sustain with decent damage. Medium Armour provides more weapon damage and more regen at the trade off of survivabilty. It's not OP. It's just very good at what it does which is stopping those Low regen burst builds and people can't stand it when their stealth bomb fails face flat.

Waffennacht

This is more of an Fyi.

What constitutes a "hit" in eso is taking direct damage to your HP. This means (for sorcs in particular) using a ward WILL disrupt your weapon/spell damage buff, and prevent your resource return.

Most (if not all) magicka users have a ward, keep in mind while using HA (and in this case black rose) if you keep your ward up, you're gaining absolutely nothing (except some health boosts) from HA

AfkNinja

Czirne wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

I don't have any math to support this claim

Look, i dont wanna argue here. I speak from my experience, i tried Black Rose on stam dk orc, and had beter suistain than with medium hunding rage. With max hp+max stam food and all weapon enchant glyphs(and bloodspawn) my base stamina regen around 650, and those 21% more regen from medium armor passives(5-1-1) made it 800ish.
With black rose on my stamina management was easier, and damage was not much lower(with shadow mundus).
That extra magicka from constitution allowed me to use helping hands passive more often.

So yes, i dont have any math, i dont care about it. I tried it, i felt difference.
Im not telling it works for every build out there, i said im my first comment "when playing right way". Of course when you have stamina regen on your gear/enchants and using serpent mundus, your base stamina regen is more, therefore you get more regen from medium armor passives, but you probably loosing some max stats/weapon damage.
point is with black rose on i could easily invest all to damage and max stamina, have a shadow mundus and suistain better than in hunding medium.

My entire point is don't make claims you are unwilling to back up with evidence and math. Your "experience" is anecdotal, my "experience" is different, in my "experience" you are wrong. Both of these points of view are anecdotal and mean nothing till we provide math though.

Medium armor offers better damage and better stamina sustain, cheaper skills AND you get to dodge roll to your hearts content. Heavy offers balanced magic/stamina sustain, more hp and a chance to survive burst but as soon as someone is not hitting you exactly every 4 seconds on the dot your stamina tanks, also don't dodge roll in heavy as it crushes your stamina.

In my experience the armor doesn't matter cause for the most part most stamina DD are ignoring almost all of your armor anyway.

Solariken

People overstate the power of Black Rose for sure, but it is definitely a very competitive set and offers a respectable amount of mitigation, damage, and sustain. There aren't very many sets in game that offer the total package.

I love this set and run it on my magplar a majority of the time in PvP. If I need to burst someone, it helps. If I need to turtle up and heal/block/survive, it helps. Plus the sustain is better than any other heavy set I've found (as long as you are on the front lines of course, which is where I live XD).

Waffennacht

AfkNinja wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

I don't have any math to support this claim

Look, i dont wanna argue here. I speak from my experience, i tried Black Rose on stam dk orc, and had beter suistain than with medium hunding rage. With max hp+max stam food and all weapon enchant glyphs(and bloodspawn) my base stamina regen around 650, and those 21% more regen from medium armor passives(5-1-1) made it 800ish.
With black rose on my stamina management was easier, and damage was not much lower(with shadow mundus).
That extra magicka from constitution allowed me to use helping hands passive more often.

So yes, i dont have any math, i dont care about it. I tried it, i felt difference.
Im not telling it works for every build out there, i said im my first comment "when playing right way". Of course when you have stamina regen on your gear/enchants and using serpent mundus, your base stamina regen is more, therefore you get more regen from medium armor passives, but you probably loosing some max stats/weapon damage.
point is with black rose on i could easily invest all to damage and max stamina, have a shadow mundus and suistain better than in hunding medium.

My entire point is don't make claims you are unwilling to back up with evidence and math. Your "experience" is anecdotal, my "experience" is different, in my "experience" you are wrong. Both of these points of view are anecdotal and mean nothing till we provide math though.

Medium armor offers better damage and better stamina sustain, cheaper skills AND you get to dodge roll to your hearts content. Heavy offers balanced magic/stamina sustain, more hp and a chance to survive burst but as soon as someone is not hitting you exactly every 4 seconds on the dot your stamina tanks, also don't dodge roll in heavy as it crushes your stamina.

In my experience the armor doesn't matter cause for the most part most stamina DD are ignoring almost all of your armor anyway.

That right there seems to be missed a lot. HA gives 25% more resist... that's guess what approximately 5k resist (looky there the same number as sharpened!)

With no special effects etc HA goes to around 23k resist? Sharpened (every dps uses this) brings it to 18k, then one debuff brings that to 13k (light armor number) Now add CPs or a Maul or an effect like night mother's and you're lookin at approx 10k resist or less (or approx 15% damage reduction).

Imo, in this meta, armor is one of the least important stats.

KoreanAwtamatic

Don't forget most people run 5 black Rose with 2 medium pieces so they still get some of the medium armor passives

KoreanAwtamatic

On my wood elf stam blade I have 1500 stam regen wearing black rose. My sustain is incredible. I use precise maelstrom sword to get my critical close to 50 percent. It's good but no where near overpowered like some claim

Also with Relentless Focus and continuous attack my Regent gets closer to 2K 5 heavy and 2 medium

Waffennacht

@Slickst3r just curious, you Animation Cancel yes?

Sharee

Slickst3r wrote: »

Don't forget most people run 5 black Rose with 2 medium pieces so they still get some of the medium armor passives

In that case however they go from 1820 resource/4sec down to 1300 resource/4sec (when constantly hit)

The black rose 5-piece bonus specifically goes down to what amounts to 185 regen (over what regular heavy provides) - almost insignificant, when you keep in mind you are sacrificing another possible 5-piece bonus to get this.

olsborg

Posting this video in this BR thread aswell, its very informative to why its op. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZoLPbPYBz0

dashima

It's still an extremely powerful set, even if the math doesn't say so, and there's a reason why it's BiS for nearly every stam dd class. I switched to black rose on my stamblade, from medium hundings, and the difference (in pvp obviously) is day and night.

In terms of sustain, the amount of stamina returned from things like Redguard passive + medium attack weaving + siphoning strikes + constitution, is more than it looks like on paper. Because of this, heavy stam dps will typically stack their stamina pool very high, like 40k+ matched with somewhere around 4k weapon damage, with little concern for regen. Other than dodge roll and mobility, medium armor offers very little over heavy armor. Some people listed higher damage and this is true, it has more raw burst damage, but is impractical for anything other than gank or group builds. In 7/7 heavy I can still crit people for 10k+ incaps and dawnbreakers.

The biggest part of BR/heavy armor is that it allows you to keep on the offense for much, much longer and lets you take a beating with less dodge roll and healing involved. Medium armor is so squishy in comparison that you'll spend half your time trying to dodge roll and heal from a single hit (ie. 2k heavy attack, 4k viper proc, 3k dps ability, 1k bash) while the heavy armor dps can keep whacking away and can eat hits that their medium armor counterpart would have had to waste stamina on dodge rolling and vigoring.

Someone listed dodge roll as the biggest defense mechanic or something, and while it is definitely strong and very useful, if you've ever played pvp the past month, you'd know that everyone and their mother is using dawnbreaker of smiting (and this is not counting magical aoes, which have never been dodge rollable).

Black rose has it all basically: mitigation, damage, and enough sustain to never run out - everyone wears it, and that is why people get frustrated at it.

Edit: And someone else mentioned magicka sustain on stambuild using BR and I agree. The amount of magicka returned is substantial - I can spam fear and cloak twice or three times as much.

Erock25

@Sharee is killing it in this thread and people still coming in here with 'yeah well everyone uses it and it's bis so nerf it' even if math and facts don't add up.

I think what makes people angry is that it's an easy set to acquire. 25k tv is like two hours of grinding. This is why I've been using the set since IC was released. So you see more people using it and the people who spent hours doing pve or 100's of thousands of gold on their sets are salty.

Increase the cost to acquire BR? Sure, but nerfing it is not called for.

Waffennacht

Erock25 wrote: »

@Sharee is killing it in this thread and people still coming in here with 'yeah well everyone uses it and it's bis so nerf it' even if math and facts don't add up.

I think what makes people angry is that it's an easy set to acquire. 25k tv is like two hours of grinding. This is why I've been using the set since IC was released. So you see more people using it and the people who spent hours doing pve or 100's of thousands of gold on their sets are salty.

Increase the cost to acquire BR? Sure, but nerfing it is not called for.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

People are using their own experiences as facts as to why this set is OP. "I did better when I changed my set" is not a fact based argument for this conversation.

Yes you may have done better, but I see no causation (not even correlation proves causation) but it could be that this HA or black Rose compliments your playstyle better, or you enjoy it more and therefore do better. Maybe your own experiences have improved your skill since you last tried your old armor, maybe your old armor was just not as good as you thought etc... there are a million possibilities as to WHY you (theoretically) did better while wearing black rose.

Also, remember statistical evidence needs to be made over the course of hundreds of tests. To even prove you're truly doing any better with black rose you need way more data than, "I put it on and just feels good."