How much Critical Chance is enough?

ThatAlaskanDude · September 2016

I recently made a switch from Stamina DK Tank to Stamina DK DPS. A friend of mine told me to get all the critical chance I can get so I crafted me a 5 piece Night Mother's Gaze set with all divines, obtain a 5 piece Archer's Mind set and switched my Mundas stone to The Theif.

I love all the critical damage I'm doing but I also feel I'm missing out some of the two piece monster sets. So I want your guys opinion(s).

*Edit: My build I want recommendations on is for PvE like dungeons and Trials.

leepalmer95 · September 2016

For what pve?

As much as possible basically, usually end up around 80%~

ThatAlaskanDude · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

For what pve?

As much as possible basically, usually end up around 80%~

Yeah PvE

Wait how do you have 80% critical?? My gear and skills puts me up to 70.9%

IwakuraLain42 · September 2016

ThatAlaskanDude wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

For what pve?

As much as possible basically, usually end up around 80%~

Yeah PvE

Wait how do you have 80% critical?? My gear and skills puts me up to 70.9%

Probably because he plays a Bosmer/Khajiit Nightblade ?

ThatAlaskanDude · September 2016

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

ThatAlaskanDude wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

For what pve?

As much as possible basically, usually end up around 80%~

Yeah PvE

Wait how do you have 80% critical?? My gear and skills puts me up to 70.9%

Probably because he plays a Bosmer/Khajiit Nightblade ?

Ahh ok. Makes sense. I'm a Redguard so I just have racial passives related to stamina.

leepalmer95 · September 2016

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

ThatAlaskanDude wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

For what pve?

As much as possible basically, usually end up around 80%~

Yeah PvE

Wait how do you have 80% critical?? My gear and skills puts me up to 70.9%

Probably because he plays a Bosmer/Khajiit Nightblade ?

Stamplar 2x leki/ 5x VO/ 5x TBS

DRXHarbinger · September 2016

ThatAlaskanDude wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

For what pve?

As much as possible basically, usually end up around 80%~

Yeah PvE

Wait how do you have 80% critical?? My gear and skills puts me up to 70.9%

Can get 74.9 on a magblade using precise. All divines, thief, inner light, scathing mage / Julianos and a few assassin skills slotted.

Stamplar 80 is easy after using jabs and pots or hunter and Kaijit.

clayandaudrey_ESO · September 2016

I have 94% on my Khajiit nightblade.

KaleidoscopeEyz · September 2016

I'd rather drop that crit chance to about 50% and start boosting weapon/spell damage, stam or recovery.

Dymence · September 2016

If you really want to maximize your viability as a DPS in PvE, you shouldn't be worrying about the appropriate amount of crit and try to balance your character towards that, you should rather look at which sets are providing the most overall damage currently.

For stamina I believe it is 5x Twice Born Star and 5x Vicious Ophidian with maelstrom bow and dual wield.

clayandaudrey_ESO · September 2016

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I'd rather drop that crit chance to about 50% and start boosting weapon/spell damage, stam or recovery.

I'd rather keep it where it is at. I have no resource problems and 4200 wep dmg. It is not all about cookie cutter streamer builds in this game.

Roogen · September 2016

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I'd rather drop that crit chance to about 50% and start boosting weapon/spell damage, stam or recovery.

HAH! who use stam recovery on PvE??? there's a slave healer throwing shards for you non stop and if he doesnt he aint doing his job!

Asardes · September 2016

Theoretically, for maximum critical chance on any class stamina build you can stack:
[2191 equals 10% critical chance, for gear the value is as number, and for passives is given as percentage]

Wear:
5 x Leviathan's (will drop in Crypt of Hearts in One Tamriel) -> 3 x 688 Weapon Critical (2nd item bonus is 967 max stamina)
3/4 x Kwatch Gladiator (craftable in Hew's Bane) -> 2 x 688 Weapon Critical (4th item bonus is 129 weapon damage)
3/4 x Widowmaker (drops in Cradle of Shadows) -> 2 x 688 Weapon Critical (4th item bonus is 1225 max stamina)
Total = 4816 Weapon Critical (22%).

7/7 medium armor with 3/3 Dexterity (Medium Armor skill line) 7 x 328 = 2296 Weapon critical (13.7%)

7/7 gold divines armor with Thief Mundus stone for =16.8% critical chance

Use precise legendary weapon(s) = 7% Weapon/Spell Critical

Use two daggers with 2/2 in Twin Blade and Blunt (Double Wield) = 10% Weapon Critical

Have a skill that gives Major Savagery on the bar - Flames of Oblivion (Dragonknight: Ardent Flame) or Skilled/Camouflaged Hunter (Guild: Fighters Guild) or Biting Jabs (Templar: Aedric Spear) = 2191 Weapon Critical (10%)

30 Champion points in Ritual constellation will unlock Precise Strikes passive that gives another 12% (any stamina build will stack most points here anyway)

Base critical chance is 10% for all max level player characters (on low level ones it's slightly higher).

If you get them all you can stack 101.5 % critical chance, meaning every strike will be a critical (you can't stack more than 100%, and the extra 1.5% will be wasted) and do 50% more damage on a target without critical resistance - mobs don't have critical resistance.

But in practice you can increase your damage by stacking other things instead of critical chance.
- Physical Penetration: sharpened weapon, crushing enchantment, champion points in Piercing, puncture skill from tank, proc from Night Mother's Gaze, Roar of Alkosh and Infallible Aether Set
- Critical damage: champion points in Precise Strikes, minor force from Trap or Stalwart guard skills + major force from Aggressive Warhorn or Light's Champion ultimates, Khajiit racial passives, Shadow mundus (that's why a lot of top DDs run TBS with Thief + Shadow)
- Maximum stamina: attribute points, gear, food, Thief champion points in any constellation
- Weapon damage: gear bonuses, major+minor brutality from various skills (most advantageous is for the DK tank to cast ingenous weapons as it gives both)
- Physical Damage done: champion points in mighty, minor berserk from combat prayer, Orc racial passives
- Bonus damage to bosses (minor slayer) from various sets that drop in trials

If you have 80-90% critical chance it's actually more advantageous to increase those instead. You don't actually need to stack them yourself, but have someone in the group use them. For example if one DD uses Night Mother's Gaze, another Roar of Alkosh and yet another (or the healer) Infallible Aether, get Stalwart Guard and Aggressive Warhorn from the tank all those bonuses will stack for maximum damage.

If you are Nightblade you can also stack critical chance by slotting Assassination skills and having Pressure Points passive 6/12% critical chance for every skill slotted. Hemorrhage passive also gives you Minor Savagery (3% critical chance) for 10/20% seconds if you score a critical hit while an Assasination skill is slotted. So Nightblades can stack the other stats because they reach the ideal critical chance easier than other classes.

I_killed_Vivec · September 2016

Precise daggers. 7/7 medium armour. Hunding's Rage. Thief.

I get 82.8% on an Imperial!

Lexxypwns · September 2016

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I'd rather drop that crit chance to about 50% and start boosting weapon/spell damage, stam or recovery.

I'd rather keep it where it is at. I have no resource problems and 4200 wep dmg. It is not all about cookie cutter streamer builds in this game.

You should probably drop thief stone for shadow stone, its significantly more damage than thief once your crit chance is above 50ish.

Nestor · September 2016

Its pretty easy to get above 60% Crit with Gear and Champ Passives. However, once above 60%, any increase in Critical Chance is not going to give you a lot more Crits than you already are getting. So, in my mind, once at around 60% or so, start putting effort into increasing Base Damage or possibly Crit Damage or both.

code65536 · September 2016

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I'd rather drop that crit chance to about 50% and start boosting weapon/spell damage, stam or recovery.

Maybe for PvP. But that definitely not for PvE.

Asardes · September 2016

Most players in PvP run impenetrable gear, put champion points in Resistant, and the healers run Transmutation set that all give critical resistance. But as I said PvE mobs and bosses have 0 critical resistance but some can have upwards of 20K resistance. That's why penetration, critical chance and critical damage are very important.

Kammakazi · September 2016

55% - 65% should be enough really.

No point in trying to get it to 70%. Better off maximizing other stats, stamina, weapon damage, etc.

Hamrb · September 2016

IMO for PvE w/o racial passives 70 % should be plenty, just under is fine

Koolio · September 2016

I always tell people that I meet trying to beat VMSA 65%+ and then build for stats. I run 72% on a Khajiit Stam sorc with shadow mundus and it's amazing. Still have 4K weapon and 33k max stam.

UltimaJoe777 · September 2016

ThatAlaskanDude wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

For what pve?

As much as possible basically, usually end up around 80%~

Yeah PvE

Wait how do you have 80% critical?? My gear and skills puts me up to 70.9%

My Archer can get over 80% when he drinks his Potion to get Major Savagery

SirAndy · September 2016

My Stamblade is at 75% without even trying. Feels like it's enough ...

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Kammakazi wrote: »

55% - 65% should be enough really.

No point in trying to get it to 70%. Better off maximizing other stats, stamina, weapon damage, etc.

Maybe, pve is were crit %/dmg is king though.

Dealing 80% bonus dmg 60% of the time (shadow)

Dealing 60% bonus dmg 80% of the time (thief)

Say a normal attack deals 1000 damage you attack 100 times.

60 x 1800 + 40 x 1000 = 148,000

80 x 1600 + 20 x 1000 = 148,000

The set up with the highest crit would actually be better because of aggressive warhorn uptime.

Or you could just TBS and get both.

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

Some of these comments are rather... Interesting, to put it mildly. But anyway, I suppose people have their own opinions for what works for them. Me personally, as a guy who does: Veteran dungeons with difficult mode activated, veteran trials with difficult mode activated, and VMA daily...? I'd say it depends entirely on the build you're aiming for. However, a good range (in my opinion) would be between 50% and 65%). Anymore than that feels like a waste.

For example, I have a Redguard Dragonknight that utilizes: 5pcs. Vicious Serpent (I alternate between all divines and divines on small pieces and infused on large pieces), 3pcs. Agility (I alternate between 3 robust and 2 robust with 1 healthy), 2pcs. Velidreth, 1x sharpened Maelstrom's Axe, 1x sharpened Maelstrom's Dagger, and 1x sharpened Maelstrom's Bow (I sometimes use a precise Maelstrom's Bow too).

Utilizing that setup above, my weapon damage sits above 3k non-buffed, I have approx. 53% to 56% weapon critical), and have plenty of self-sustain. I don't ever need shards to be thrown at me, and I do more than enough damage. I also have very solid survivability. So, I'd say my stamina build is doing quite nicely.

Brrrofski · September 2016

Over 60% with Shadow mundus
34k+ stam (I get to 39.5k on my stam Sorc)
3.5k weapon damage

That crit is without pots/evil hunter though. So it's basically at 70% all the time (using pots on cooldown)

That's a good ballpark figure. You can squeeze even more out though.

code65536 · September 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

But anyway, I suppose people have their own opinions for what works for them.

None of this is opinion. It's straightforward math. Hard facts. People aren't entitled to an "opinion" that 2+2=5.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Anymore than that feels like a waste.

It's a waste if you somehow go over 100%.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

I don't ever need shards to be thrown at me

You don't need to sacrifice precious crit to get that. Vicious turns stamina resource management into a joke. Someone building for zero sustain would still do fine with resources as a Redguard running Vicious.

Dagoth_Rac · September 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I'd rather drop that crit chance to about 50% and start boosting weapon/spell damage, stam or recovery.

I'd rather keep it where it is at. I have no resource problems and 4200 wep dmg. It is not all about cookie cutter streamer builds in this game.

You should probably drop thief stone for shadow stone, its significantly more damage than thief once your crit chance is above 50ish.

Absolutely not. That was true years ago, when maximum critical damage bonus without a mundus was 50%. That was where the 50% number came from. But between Templar/Nightblade passives, Rearming Trap, Warhorn, Precise Strikes CP star, it is fairly common to be doing 100%+ bonus damage on critical hits nowadays even without Shadow mundus. So if you have one mundus, Thief is always better. You only want Shadow if you have two mundus stones and thus already have Thief stone.

Basically, it is better to do 100% bonus damage 80% of the time than 117% bonus damage 63% of the time.

Brrrofski · September 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

But anyway, I suppose people have their own opinions for what works for them.

None of this is opinion. It's straightforward math. Hard facts. People aren't entitled to an "opinion" that 2+2=5.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Anymore than that feels like a waste.

It's a waste if you somehow go over 100%.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

I don't ever need shards to be thrown at me

You don't need to sacrifice precious crit to get that. Vicious turns stamina resource management into a joke. Someone building for zero sustain would still do fine with resources as a Redguard running Vicious.

I don't even have vo yet (give me another ring godammit) and I sustain fine on my redguard stamsorc (bound armaments helps a bit)

code65536 · September 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I'd rather drop that crit chance to about 50% and start boosting weapon/spell damage, stam or recovery.

I'd rather keep it where it is at. I have no resource problems and 4200 wep dmg. It is not all about cookie cutter streamer builds in this game.

You should probably drop thief stone for shadow stone, its significantly more damage than thief once your crit chance is above 50ish.

Absolutely not. That was true years ago, when maximum critical damage bonus without a mundus was 50%. That was where the 50% number came from. But between Templar/Nightblade passives, Rearming Trap, Warhorn, Precise Strikes CP star, it is fairly common to be doing 100%+ bonus damage on critical hits nowadays even without Shadow mundus. So if you have one mundus, Thief is always better. You only want Shadow if you have two mundus stones and thus already have Thief stone.

Basically, it is better to do 100% bonus damage 80% of the time than 117% bonus damage 63% of the time.

Yep.

Another way to look at it is, x*x is always bigger than (x+y)*(x-y). (That simplifies down to x^2 > x^2-y^2.) When you're talking about shifting crit chance into crit damage or vice-versa (i.e., making the decision between Thief vs. Shadow), your goal is to have both the crit damage bonus and crit chance to be as close to the same as possible. Any change in Mundus that increases the gap between crit damage and crit chance will lower your overall damage.

And as Dagoth pointed out, crit damage can go pretty high these days once you factor in operational bonuses, so it's unusual for Shadow to outperform Thief.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2016

Most PVE DPS builds are going to be in the 70-85% range. Yeah its kind of big. I would not stack crit at all cost, but it is definitely important. For people saying 50% is enough in PVE, they are clueless. It's not and your DPS will suffer.

Some things arent worth the sacrifice to boost crit. The biggest example is that sharpened weapons are better than precise in almost every encounter that actually matters.

Most stam players arent using monster sets in PVE. The baseline Meta right now is 5TBS/5 Vicious Ophidian all Divines, sharp VMA AXE+Dagger and Bow, with theif and shadow. Your crit will be what it will be, but some classes/races will have more than others. Some other really strong options include replacing one or both of these sets with Night mothers, Alkosh, sunderflame, Morag Tong, or a Monster set and VO/Agility Jewelry. The 4 five piece sets I mentioned should be limited to one person per group as they do not stack. Once all those sets are covered in your group, go 5TBS/5VO. Veledreth and Mephala can be pretty useful monster sets, but I would only consider runnning them if you had perfect traits if trying to pull high DPS in group content.