ZOS Claims to Use "Hard Data" for Balancing

IxskullzxI · September 2016

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Balancing in this game is terrible. They need to hire a weekly balancing team if they are going to be a serious MMO. This whenever we do an update we change a bunch of crap that screw up a lot of builds is like junior high kids playing at being game designers. The leaps are too big and balance is never achieved. Seems like they dont' even play their own game and have a clue how things are and how things really change when they make changes. It's truly shameful.

Want to add that if they really were balancing we would not see all these updates from different gamers (some well known) on how builds are different now. The changes would not be so significant that builds from a year ago are no longer favorable compared to other builds. If an update can change things that much then it's really not being done well. They need to learn to gradually tweak things rather than what seems like almost random overhauls.

You mean drastically changing the game all at once doesn't lead to balance? Whaaaa? Or balancing once a year? Weird.

Trashyratchet · September 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

No offense, but where are the date stamps of that graph? Those numbers could've been pulled at any given time. Also, that graph isn't really explaining anything in detail; showing inconsistency.

Also, I highly doubt that most people in Cyrodiil are wearing light armor across the board with 501+ CP in PC-NA. I doubt that strongly. Especially when medium armor players are leading in PVP in PC-NA. Not to mention, there are more stamina users than magicka users (which I think we both know). So you're trying to get me to believe that in knowing that there are more stamina users than magicka users, that light armor is leading currently across the board? Bruh... C'mon now, bruh. @ZOS_RichLambert

This is exactly why he started his response with "I probably shouldn't respond....". He knows that no matter what data he throws at this forum, he will get responses just like this. Reminds me of Monty Python and the "None Shall Pass" scene from Holy Grail. Look your arm's off....No it isn't....Well what's that then?.....merely a flesh wound. If you aren't going to believe the data he posts, then it's a waste of his time.

Kadoozy · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

The problem with statistics such as these, is that there is no comparison to past data; by these stats alone, it looks like things are pretty even; now pull up a report from before heavy armor was buffed, I guarantee it would show vastly different numbers. It is pretty clear that people are switching thanks to this new meta. Not to say that I am against a balancing of the armor types; but I feel like the only people not using heavy, Black Rose in particular, are ones that don't know of its current utility or that simply dont have the time, dlc or desire to farm in the imperial city/sewers or dont have the gold to purchase it considering how much each piece is selling for currently.

Though I also feel that too big of a nerf, or any nerf really, to Black Rose will also force everyone back into the medium/light armor camps. Heavy armor was never viable in pvp, outside of tanky troll builds, because of the sustain issues it has. Black Rose gave heavy the needed sustain and now people are actually using it. I feel like the people that complain about it are just mad that they cant burst people down in 3 seconds anymore and don't know how to fight past their initial burst, based on the people I have encountered in the sewers. This set really isnt that overpowered, if at all.

The next patch will bring in so many new sets and builds that everyone will most likely hop off the Black Rose bandwagon and find something new to use. And then everyone will be crying about whatever that new meta is.

Jaronking · September 2016

I have to ask @ZOS_RichLambert and @ZOS_GinaBruno what hard data showed you AOE caps where a good idea to ads to the game and ruin small group PVP?This would go a long way to determine the mindset of ZOS when it comes to PVP changes that affect the game.Also what data showed you this was a good thing to add to the game.

DHale · September 2016

I will take the bet that executioner/reverse slice kills more people than the two radiant morphs. Magic Templar is one class. All the classes that use stam as their resource pool, a overwhelming vast majority of them use two hander. Stam consistently outperforms magic. I certainly can do more than 10 k more damage per second on a stam toon with purple weapons and gear than I can on my magic toons (which I prefer) with gold weapons and gear. I have waited two years and five month to see the magic Templar v X player on video. I have watched 44 of Lefty's videos to see it. Looking forward.... Some day soon, no ETA.

kadar · September 2016

TiberX wrote: »

Talking about hard data, can u provide also class distribution in PvP?
I bet NBs are close to 50 %, beeing so "balanced "

I think it's far more likely that Templars are closer to 50% than Nightblades.

Jaronking · September 2016

DHale wrote: »

I will take the bet that executioner/reverse slice kills more people than the two radiant morphs. Magic Templar is one class. All the classes that use stam as their resource pool, a overwhelming vast majority of them use two hander. Stam consistently outperforms magic. I certainly can do more than 10 k more damage per second on a stam toon with purple weapons and gear than I can on my magic toons (which I prefer) with gold weapons and gear. I have waited two years and five month to see the magic Templar v X player on video. I have watched 44 of Lefty's videos to see it. Looking forward.... Some day soon, no ETA.

What he has Templar videos a lot. For 5 weeks straight he had the same magica Templar on PS4 in his list. That was doing TG before the buff to radiant.Last week the number 1 spot was a magica Templar 1vX.

TheValkyn · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Those numbers were pulled yesterday. I saw it happen.

Grabmoore · September 2016

flubber77 wrote: »

could the reason for this be that not everyone knows the benefit from it?

Imo it's because most players don't use PvP builds and therefore go in 5/1/1 to Cyrodiil.

Honestly PvP is a side effect of ESO anyways, so I wouldn't feel too great winning 1 vs 1 against a min maxed PvE player. Like Sypher said earlier, he's not the best, but because of his cheesy builds, he wins most duells.

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Can we get a graph of players who die to jesus beam vs anything else?

Is this what you are struggling with now @FENGRUSH ? First it was the OP healing, not it's RD? Something is always getting in your way !

Healing is still crazy across the boards - its just the fact that you can burst better now. People who know how to build their char can still deal pretty well with it.

Hey man, I just watch your stream and do enjoy it sometimes. You just used to *** about healing a lot. WTH do you think a build made for healing is supposed to do ? I have to admit, I would enjoy healing through your STORC in PvP, just to know you are raging.

My heavy stam dk has 60% increased healing without going out of my way to build for it

My medium stam nb has like 12%

I can get 120% on my stam dk without giving up much, my bloodspawn and a pot.

Hymzir · September 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

So to summarize - there is data, and then there is relevant data. The trick is to realize which is which and act accordingly.

Why are you trying to say exactly ? That heavy armor is not as used as it should given how OP it is, and that its (lack of) usage is due to external factors ?
What do you reckon then ? To nerf heavy armor ?

I'm sorry but "yes+but+no+maybe+perhaps+also" just lead nowhere.

Well... what to say, except that you obviously missed the point. There was lot more that I wanted to say, but felt that I had said enough to say my piece. Apparently not.

What I responded to, was not the effectiveness of heavy armor, but to using data points about armor distribution among the player base as a way to gauge the relevancy of the different armor types.

While such data is interesting in it's own, it is mostly meaningless when considering the relative usefulness of the different armor types. There are far too many external factors influencing the issue for such data to be meaningful. The only context in which such data has any real relevancy is, if we establish equalizing armor type usage among the player population as our primary objective.

If taken within such frame, the data clearly shows that heavy is not as popular as the other armor types. Thus one might conjecture that it needs to be made more attractive. I.e. it need to be buffed. But reading the data in such a way, is a near sighted thing to do, even within such a frame of observation. The real question such data should invoke is why is heavy less popular than the other options? Especially if you have a separate set of metrics to show that mathematically at least it should not be an inferior choice. And if that is the case, then why is it the least popular option?

To this end, I presented several reasons as to why there is a clear culture of shunning heavy armor in the player base of ESO. Now I have no hard data available to gauge which of these factors are the key reasons behind the phenomena, and there are no doubt several more factors that I failed to think about. But at the end of the day, what is clearly evident, is that at the moment, heavy is not as popular as other forms of armor for various reasons, most of which have nothing to do with it's relative usefulness.

Ir is also worth noting, that heavy armor is becoming more and more popular, Why? Well the buffs it got most certainly have something to do with it. I see more and more heavy armor users in PVP with each passing day, and on average I have more difficulties dealing with people wearing heavy than something else. I have, myself, also migrated to using heavy and find it much better in PVP than the other armor types. I also come across similar sentiments from other players.

Is it stronger than the other types? Maybe, but I can't really say anything conclusive about that, nor is it really my concern here. The point is that what people wear is influenced by many different factors, and that such data is of no real use when trying to balance the armor types with each other.

A much more interesting and useful bit of data would be to know what is the win lose ratio between max CP combatants of at least PVP rank 20 clad in different sets of armor. That might actually give us something meaningful to look at when trying to gauge the effectiveness of the different armor types. But even with such data, you would need several sets of numbers covering a period of several months. Meta does not change over night, even if the math behind the game might change overnight with a new update. It will always take some time for the player population to adapt to the new reality and learn the best way to utilize the available tools.

I appreciate that ZOS base their thinking upon what we actually do and choose in the game, not upon assumptions regarding the why and the how.

Without understanding why people do what they do in the game, and just basing your decisions on what what people do is as bad as just pulling number out of a hat.

But that's not the issue here either. I'm sure people at ZOS do consider these issues, even if that is pure conjecture on my part, since ZOS is not all that transparent about the way they do things back there.

But even with that benefit of the doubt, the point still remains that the data bits released by Mr. Lambert are not really all that relevant to the issue he was talking about, and do not in any way say anything meaningful about the power balance between the different armor types. Nor should anyone really try to use them to back up any opinion they have on the issue.

All they really talk about, is what people are wearing in the game, and not at all as to why they are doing it. And I at least do hope that the people at ZOS base their decisions not on what the players do, but why they do it.

Smasherx74 · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Those numbers were pulled yesterday. I saw it happen.

jircris11 · September 2016

so you get an example and are still not happy. seems you wish to be angry and argue for the sake of being angry and arguing. take this in to consideration, most devs would not take the time of day to post such things for their customers. and perhaps it does not make sense to you but to them it could be a world of information. I know when i worked for NCsoft our data layouts made ZERO sense to those who where not on the team. It is how things are done plain and simple.

@LegacyDM If you look at the responses they are getting after showing this data you will understand why most devs to not grant them to the community. some are happy (such as your self) but others find more reasons to complain about it not being good enough or that it is extreemly out dated. In the end as a dev you can not win you will always have people mad at you who think they can do a better job YET they have never worked on a game in their lives.

LegacyDM · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Thanks for posting this. I do have some feedback.

1. Saying things like "I probably shouldn't respond to such a post." Is not a healthy start to facilitating communication. The op is visibly frustrated. Your response creates more of a divide between the players and devs and supports the lack of transparency. Let's be mature about this. Not belittle your frustrated player base.

2. You probably shouldn't be using your own experiences to implement balance. If you enjoy the game and have a favorite character your going to be biased. That's dangerous for a dev to have that kind of power. Zos should have unbiased QA play testers. Play testers would provide honest unbiased feedback.

3. This is the kind of transparency this community has been craving for. Why have you guys withheld this type is data for years? Recommend you provide weekly or bi-weekly "hard data" feedback. That would really help stop assumptions from the community and help you guys be more transparent.

Publius_Scipio · September 2016

LegacyDM wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Thanks for posting this. I do have some feedback.

1. Saying things like "I probably shouldn't respond to such a post." Is not a healthy start to facilitating communication. The op is visibly frustrated. Your response creates more of a divide between the players and devs and supports the lack of transparency. Let's be mature about this. Not belittle your frustrated player base.

2. You probably shouldn't be using your own experiences to implement balance. If you enjoy the game and have a favorite character your going to be biased. That's dangerous for a dev to have that kind of power. Zos should have unbiased QA play testers. Play testers would provide honest unbiased feedback.

3. This is the kind of transparency this community has been craving for. Why have you guys withheld this type is data for years? Recommend you provide weekly or bi-weekly "hard data" feedback. That would really help stop assumptions from the community and help you guys be more transparent.

1. It's not healthy for players to be rude to and disparage the developers all over forums and videos. It is not a healthy start to facilitating communication. Player's should be mature about this. Not belittle developers who are also people who can get frustrated as well.

2. Players are biased in that they can only speak to their own experiences. And more often than not, a player's own experiences, the experiences of a guild even, are too small a drop in the bucket to represent ESO as a whole. Even the number of players who post in the forums is only a tiny fraction of the total ESO population.

3. Assumptions are and always will be owned by the individual or individuals making them. The developers don't need to stop people from making assumptions. The people making the assumptions need to realize they made the assumptions and should always take into account what information they have in hand before making broad statements.

It's a two way street here.

xellink · September 2016

LegacyDM wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Thanks for posting this. I do have some feedback.

1. Saying things like "I probably shouldn't respond to such a post." Is not a healthy start to facilitating communication. The op is visibly frustrated. Your response creates more of a divide between the players and devs and supports the lack of transparency. Let's be mature about this. Not belittle your frustrated player base.

This thread is becoming ridiculous. Your post is quite offensive to someone releasing raw data.

1. He probably should not respond to such a post doesn't mean ZOS should not respond to this post. The reason this could be detrimental is because of people like who are highly critical and believes ESO should be based on mathematical perfection and scientific evidence.

2. You probably shouldn't be using your own experiences to implement balance. If you enjoy the game and have a favorite character your going to be biased. That's dangerous for a dev to have that kind of power. Zos should have unbiased QA play testers. Play testers would provide honest unbiased feedback.

2. He should wait till ZOS as a collective writes a meta-analysis on the topic like that in a scientific journal, wait for the peer-review process and criticism, re-edit and then publish for scientific accuracy... But its too much work... so ZOS as a collective decides to create more mounts instead.

He did not say he used his own experience to implement balance. That is your assumption and accusation. He is just trying to show raw data that the community requested and giving an opinion why such balance was implemented. He did not say balance decisions were based on only his opinion. Of course there would be possibly other factors involved: such as crown store and $$. That is probably why VMA weapons are good. Look at the difference in costs of the DLCs. This is my opinion and i can assure you that it was not taken into account when balancing the game. See I used the word possibly.

Most of us would welcome raw data of any form. Processed data is better... but again this is a game and not a scientific community. Hard analysis of the raw data with fair unbiased presentation is a waste of manpower to majority of the players and only serves the hardcores who frequent the forums and chase the metagame.

Do you know how much time is spent doing research and writing papers and this is what the NEJM editor says...

3. This is the kind of transparency this community has been craving for. Why have you guys withheld this type is data for years? Recommend you provide weekly or bi-weekly "hard data" feedback. That would really help stop assumptions from the community and help you guys be more transparent.

So your posts shifts from a hard insult to a soft compliment to one that deliberately places blame on the devs whether balancing is done right or not: that such data is withheld. I can assure you that the devs do on occasion post data on the forums (I have seen it myself) and this does nothing to quell the minority of the players lurking in the forums. It is just not worth it... and no... it does not stop assumptions. It creates new assumptions.

Anyway, i don't know why everyone is so mad about balance when some skills are not working properly to begin with. Whatever balance you have is moot when skills don't work properly anyway...

That said, i did play a PVP centric game where every single balance had notes written on it with developer discussion... and the community there was toxic as hell... People would scream balance issues about 1/4s difference in activation.... (Its true) 1/4s is... close to the limit at which your body can respond. If your body is constantly trying to keep up with that kind of response, i'm pretty sure when you stop playing you'll be in an extremely toxic mood, especially when you lose.

The example of the developer update in case people wanna look at it.

GhostwalkerLD · September 2016

Thelon wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Feedback from everyone is one very important part, but we also look at hard data and how a change would affect every other part of the game.

Honestly Gina, I've enjoyed many conversations with you and various Devs since Beta. But the claim that you're using "hard data" to determine the affects of various changes is laughable considering the current state of your game.

*****

What hard data did you examine when balancing the CP system? Do passives like unchained look balanced to you?

What hard data did you examine when implementing Battle Spirit, especially in relation to class defining skills like Dragon Blood?

What hard data did you use when implementing a no CP campaign? Did you adjust Streak / Dodge penalties to compensate for 0 CP PvP?

What hard data did you use when implementing crutch sets like Shield breaker? Did you adjust this set after nerfing sorc shields?

What hard data did you use when setting shield duration at 6 seconds? Are your matrices showing an acceptable number of MagSorcs in Cyrodiil?

What hard data did you use when implementing proc sets like Valendrith and Viper? Do you feel these sets increase or decrease the importance of player skill in ESO?

What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?

What hard data did you use when buffing Soul Assault? Is another long-range, undodgeable beam encouraging or discouraging smart counter-play in ESO's PvP?

What hard data did you use that allowed gap closers to exist in their current state? Has banning players for using a mechanic you developed helped to address the underlying mechanical issues?

What hard data did you use to balance Masters and Maelstrom weapons for Magicka and Stamina users? Do you feel that Magicka users benefit from their vMA weapons as much as Stamina users do from theirs?

What hard data did you use when deciding that multiple poisons should apply on one person? Do you feel zerglings need additional advantages to be successful in 20 v 2 situations?

What hard data did you use when implementing Rally and Vigour? Do you feel stam builds need a burst heal from their offensive weapon (Rally) and a passive heal (Vigour) whose ticks surpasses a DKs burst heal?

What hard data did you use when deciding that Bound Armor would remain a toggle? That Storm Atronach would be the only Atronach in the game that can be CC'd?

What hard data did you reference that led you to decide that Streak should be the only CLASS DEFINING SKILL in the game that punishes the user for casting it more than once? Why is the same not true for other class defining skills like cloak, BoL and Wings?

*****

I hope you understand why the community might have a tough time understanding your use of "hard data." The current state of ESO leads me to believe that either:

a) you don't use hard data, or
b) you do use hard data, but lack the competence to use it effectively, or
c) you do use hard data and have the competence to use it effectively, but lack the monetary incentive to do so

"Men are more important than tools. If you don't believe so, put a good tool into the hands of a poor workman."
- John J. Bernet

*applause*

manny254 · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Those numbers were pulled yesterday. I saw it happen.

Very well, but it is still fair to ask what time frame the data represents. More so what exactly does the data mean regarding the armor types. Is it simply counting the amount of armor equiped or marking each player based on the majority type? When it refers to a "PVP Player" what is used to determine if someone is a PVP player?

DHale · September 2016

Actually more pew pew and less qq would make this game better. People that are at the lower end of the bell shaped curve in terms or performance or ability will always complain. What I guarantee is Rich shared with you the data and you blasted him. He won't be doing so again. If Gina said he pulled it today that is what it is. You are not entitled to a pull stamp. We as the customer really have only two choices stay or go.

manny254 · September 2016

DHale wrote: »

Actually more pew pew and less qq would make this game better. People that are at the lower end of the bell shaped curve in terms or performance or ability will always complain. What I guarantee is Rich shared with you the data and you blasted him. He won't be doing so again. If Gina said he pulled it today that is what it is. You are not entitled to a pull stamp. We as the customer really have only two choices stay or go.

Not entitled to ask a question? Yes the data was pulled yesterday. It is reasonable to ask how far back the data goes. Is it from 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? 1 Year?

What is wrong with trying to understand data that has been presented to you?

jircris11 · September 2016

manny254 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Actually more pew pew and less qq would make this game better. People that are at the lower end of the bell shaped curve in terms or performance or ability will always complain. What I guarantee is Rich shared with you the data and you blasted him. He won't be doing so again. If Gina said he pulled it today that is what it is. You are not entitled to a pull stamp. We as the customer really have only two choices stay or go.

Not entitled to ask a question? Yes the data was pulled yesterday. It is reasonable to ask how far back the data goes. Is it from 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? 1 Year?

What is wrong with trying to understand data that has been presented to you?

They are saying that its more the manner they asked. most of the comments made it seem as if the devs where lying about the data when in fact it was fresh. There is only so much a dev can do and well you can lead the horse to water but you can't force it to drink. If the people do not wish to accept this information that is their own issue.

kargen27 · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You can't just pull out a random graph with no filters...

Playing pvp for more than an hour clearing shows how many people are stamina and light, there it literally like 75% + people who are stamina and most of them wear heavy.

Wonder how many of those people are actually active, are alt's etc...

In your small little part of the world. A couple of guilds I am do what we call Cyradiil tours. We try to hit any delves those who join us don't have. Do a quest line, discover a world wonder, and introduce them to the basics of PvP. Most those groups are outfitted in light armor.
Many (and I do mean many) people go to Cyradiil and PvP only long enough to get the skills they need for their PvE build. Some do this for more than one character and most those just go in their PvE armor. A lot of light builds fit here. Plus you got all the people that are not caught up in the world of min/max and those people don't worry so much about squeezing a few extra points out of heavy armor.

When I run with a guild that is actually trying to control a zone and maybe crown an emperor I see heavy armor. When I run with the guild that is more casual I don't see near as much heavy armor. There are more casual players in PvP than the hardcore guts and glory type. Those casual people are why heavy armor when the entire spectrum is looked at isn't dominating.

And it seems you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a nightblade in medium armor.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · September 2016

I guess my biggest question is why is there no, 'no armor' graph line. I can't be the only naked pvper...

Pendrillion · September 2016

I really find it an insolence how people behave towards the Devs. First you scream for more transparency and then you go and calling them liars on base of the data they present. Good work everyone. Within a short time they will stop talking again, because you know, to satisfy every individual need and opinion will be a thing of the impossible.

So please... Grow some pants and start treating people with respect when they make an overture.

Sorry it kinda embarrasses and annoys me to read some comments here...

antihero727 · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Thanks for trying to communicate. This is all most here want is an explanation. If you don't turn the toxic pool every now and again it becomes a putrid cesspool.

Sighotic · September 2016

After reading most of the post in this thread, I came to thinking that I really want to delete ESO from my PC and never ever try to go back. It's not because of how this game is unbalanced, etc, it is more about how ESO community is working right now.

Looks like most of the players here never got a chance to learn what the critical thinking and constructive discourse are. I can assure you that blaming each other for beeing rude and angry and openly calling someone's thoughts as fault without any objective arguments - is a dead end.

FearlessOne_2014 · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Thank you for providing us some form of data. This will placate most of the masses. Tho I still can't put a reason other then pure cash grab. Why would yall continuously buff stamina, and give it even more free RNG instant killing gear sets. Then again game development is not my job. Thank the Universe I never had to work in the Civilian Sector.

Just as most of these players on these forums. I have also seen a huge decrease and the amount of magicka and light armor based players in Cyrodiil since DB. If I was to go out into Cyrodiil right now. I'd more then likely see swords and bow users outnumber the staves and spell users by at least double if not more.

But anyways I have to gave credit where credit is due. Thank you @ZOS_RichLambert for taking the time to communicate with us. Sometimes just hearing a dev trying to defend the balance issues of the game. Is enoth put your in a better place, instead of just flatout hating them. Again Thank You Very Much. @ZOS_RichLambert.

hrothbern · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Thanks for sharing these interesting raw data

I guess you guys slice and dice a lot more (standard) reports from the big database.
And try to interpretate it.... try to convert those raw data reports into meaningful and actionable information.

No harm done to share more often such raw data with us !
Would be great if we, as forum community, can contribute with feedback interpretating the meaning of it.

EDIT
and happy to see that HA is currently a desirable choice on par with LA & MA

DHale · September 2016

manny254 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Actually more pew pew and less qq would make this game better. People that are at the lower end of the bell shaped curve in terms or performance or ability will always complain. What I guarantee is Rich shared with you the data and you blasted him. He won't be doing so again. If Gina said he pulled it today that is what it is. You are not entitled to a pull stamp. We as the customer really have only two choices stay or go.

Not entitled to ask a question? Yes the data was pulled yesterday. It is reasonable to ask how far back the data goes. Is it from 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? 1 Year?

What is wrong with trying to understand data that has been presented to you?

We are not at odds here. We certainly can and certainly should ask questions. What I am saying is based on the players calling rich a liar and such he is very unlikely to give us the data again. He and some of us felt it was a treat to get the data regardless of our lack of context to other data that was not provided since he was only using the specific data points to make a specific point. That stated, he is not required to give us that information. His statement is a frustration on his own part as to what the reaction would be from us. He knew that when he posted it that there would be people with negative responses... aaaaaannndddd we did. Regardless of the methodology used to synthesize the data or how recent it is, data without context is utterly meaningless. Data often demonstrates correlation it rarely reveals causation.

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

manny254 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Actually more pew pew and less qq would make this game better. People that are at the lower end of the bell shaped curve in terms or performance or ability will always complain. What I guarantee is Rich shared with you the data and you blasted him. He won't be doing so again. If Gina said he pulled it today that is what it is. You are not entitled to a pull stamp. We as the customer really have only two choices stay or go.

Not entitled to ask a question? Yes the data was pulled yesterday. It is reasonable to ask how far back the data goes. Is it from 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? 1 Year?

What is wrong with trying to understand data that has been presented to you?

That's exactly why I made the statements I made, about the graph presented lacking information. And some people attacked my statements, and refuse to acknowledge the blatant missing information. Saying "the data was pulled yesterday", and showing a graph that lacks date stamps again doesn't mean a damn thing. It just means that it was collected yesterday, but does NOT show when the data collected is reflecting upon. Nor how far back it goes. Which is why it's so important to supply date stamps.

But, so many people enjoy being spoon-fed things without asking questions. It's no wonder so many sit pretty with what was given to them. And honestly? I'm over it. Lol. Most people will accept what they want to accept, and simply swallow whatever is presented before them. And the small group of others? Well... Others will forever question what is given before them, and analyze it in-depth. They will cross-check said data, and try their best to make sense of it. I suppose that's the world we live in today, bruh.