alephthiago wrote: »

Insanarchy wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Insanarchy wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

So more PvP players with 501+ CP wear light armor than medium armor? Wow, I totally get it now. That explains why stamina get buffed every patch while magicka gets nothing. #balanced

Give them credit, they are not going to make balancing changes based simply on which armor type is worn most. There's a whole lot more data that goes into any given decision. Not saying they have it 100% figured out, but to me it just comes down to pvp and pve need to somehow be balanced separately, without one balance meant to balance pvp hurting it's pve viability and vice versa. That's honestly the problem I see currently. Eventually I see a much more defined separation of pvp and pve to make balancing of each more efficient, but no one truly knows the direction they'll take it but them.

I'm a little beyond "giving them credit". Every patch just makes the balance worse. There is nothing the would lead me to believe the balance the game on something other than just the graph. I would love to see a response on the other points listed in the op. Not trying to be a ***, but look at one tamriel, for example. An update focused on itemization. Why would stamina get all these strong sets and weapon ults that widen the gap between magicka and stamina. Where is the hard data or reasoning behind that? Can we at least get some sort of information on why these imbalances keep happening?

Uh I saw magicka equivalents to all those sets. So itemization isn't really the issue it's more in depth. This game is slowly heading in the right direction whether people see it or not. It's just slower than anyone would like.

Really? Find me a magicka damage increase set to match Strength of the Automaton.

Sigh.. You fail to understand it's not all about having an exact equivalent. I'll go rock my reactive heavy impen, engine guardian, transmutation vampire templar build and guarantee I won't be killed 1v1 by any stamina character wearing any of the new sets. Just saying there's builds out there way more powerful than these so called op stam sets. Everyone else sees it one way the real pros see it a completely different way.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

xellink wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Still despite the the cp 501 graphic , it is easy to see stamina is the favorite with medium armors . The meta is reinforced by that graph .

The reason why you don't 'see' that many med armor players is because they are always in stealth.

Dodge rolled the hard data scan .

You wanted hard data rite?

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Apologies - this is gonna be long. It's just something that kinda tends to get me up and about, and feel like I need to comment and stuff. For what it's worth, your gut feeling was probably right - It would have been better not to respond to this. Especially by posting these bits of "hard data" to showcase rationale behind heavy armor changes and their prevalence in PVP environment. But anyway, here goes...

There is data and then there is meaningful data. The percentage of use of different armor types across various slices of player population is... just data. It doesn't really tell us much on it's own, and even when compiled with various others data points, it still isn't all that meaningful.

Remember back when you guys noted that your data showed that The Lady was the most popular Mundus? Hmm? Remember that, do you remember why that was? Could it have something to do with the fact that it's the first one you discover, and lots of characters never come across any other, and many players never really even understand their relevance. It certainly had nothing to do with the actual usefulness of the Lady Mundus stone.

When thinking about Heavy armor, it's popularity and whether or not it is balanced with the other armors, the actual numbers of people using it are mostly just ancillary stuff that might bear some relevance in the considerations, when coupled with long term statistics noting trends of armor use in the player base. But even as such, it would only really be meaningful if the data showed ridiculously skewed distribution.

All data is really only useful once you have established the frame within which you are trying to utilities it in. Otherwise it's just a datapoint telling us only that, at some point in time, among certain slice of population, the distribution of something was was some specific set of numbers. And that's all.

In case of armor use in general, the real question is that what it the purpose of heavy armor within the framework of the game is, and what you are trying to accomplish with it.

At this point, I really do wonder about that. Since the actual functions of the different types of armor is roughly the following - Magicka users are supposed to use light, Stamina users are supposed to use Medium and Heavy armor is for? Who exactly? Tanks? I beg to differ. The passives tacked onto that thing do not speak of tanking focus. Also such division of function would then indicate that DPS characters should use medium and Healers light - or vice versa, depending on what fantasy tropes you favor. I.e. Are healers lightly clad Light mages, or clerics in not quite as heavy armor as warriors. Or are DPS characters lightly armored mages or alpha striking rogues in mediumish armor. These things do matter, and do in fact partly explain the distribution of armor shown in your data points. I will return to this later, but for now let's talk some more about the role and function of the different armors.

As noted earlier, medium shows a clear bias for use with stamina builds. It offers less protection than heavy, but also gives you extra mobility. It can be, with the addition of few pieces of heavy, used as the basis for a decent tank build. One that must use active damage mitigation more in favor of just ignoring damage passively. You can also mold it to work as a basis for a healer build, what with the decrease in ability cost and increase in regen, along with just generally adding more raw power behind your abilities (in form of higher crit rating and more weapon damage.) And of course it is clearly also usable as a basis for a DPS build. The choice between heavy and medium is one of mobility, and general utility, versus upfront greater survivability of heavy. Is it an equal choice... Theer is no real bias towards any of the roles.

The same is true for heavy - it does this in a significantly different manner than medium, but it is perfectly viable choice for any DPS, healer or tank to build on. But the light armor vs. Heavy... That is not an even choice at all...

Light armor is not a viable base for a tank, it does not really offer you much utility as far as movement goes, or anything else either. It just makes your magic stronger, and gives you some capability to manage your magicka better. Furthermore, it also favors DPS builds more than healers, since spell penetration is of no use to healers, where as medium armor increases your weapon power, thus making all your abilities hit harder. Both offensive and defensive.

So, in the end, we are left with a world where medium and heavy armor offer choices for all roles, and where the difference between picking one or the other is one of mobility vs. survivability, and one of active resource management vs. passive resource management. If you are playing magicka... Well then your choices are either go with heavy and build for whatever role you want, or go with light if you are a magicka based DPS, who has class abilities to overcome the limitations of light armor. Or just go with light regardless, and accept the fact that you are gimped by that choice.

Those are the facts behind the issue - those are the pertinent bits of information when considering relevancy of the different armor types. What people wear is a secondary consideration, if even that, and is influenced by several completely external set of reasons.

One should try to keep in mind, that for most of ESO's lifetime, heavy armor has been complete and utter crap and not a viable option to use by anyone even remotely sensible. This has led to a culture that shuns heavy armor for various reasons.

- Anything that manages to establish itself as a dominant thing, has a certain amount of momentum that keeps things the way they are. Even if changing the status quo is actually more advantageous.

- A lot of people have grown accustomed to playing with either light or medium, and would find it difficult to adapt if the suddenly lost some of those features they depend on. I certainly struggeld with it.

- There are tons of build and play videos on Youtube making medium and light armor builds look much more awesome than heavy, and new players do not realize that the game has changed significantly from the days when those videos were made.

- There is also the possibility, especially if you are a casual gamer, that you have not bothered to level the other armor types. If your light or medium is at level 50, and your heavy is still in single digit numbers, then switching to using heavy would be objectively worse than keep on drudging with the gear you have.

- There are certain sets of gear that are considered awesome and must have - and due to the history of useless heavy armor, most of them are light or medium. And they are still considered to be the things all the cool kids run with, even though the meta has moved on already.

- The itemization in this game is not well though out, there is far too heavy relevance on RNG. This skews the numbers of usage since some sets are just too darn hard to get, and others do not come with impenetrable, which is imperative on at least some pieces in the current PVP environment. So while your ideal build might require heavy armor, it is possible that getting it is far too much of a hassle and since you already have a light or medium from the times when those were the optimal choice... chasing the new heavy set may just bee too much to bother with.

- And finally there is the cost... Legendary set of heavy armor is not cheap. Gold tempers cost and arm and leg and bit of your kidneys. And you really don't have that many arms and legs you can spare, and will eventually run out of kidneys too. So switching over to using heavy might not look all that desirable.

In addition to this, you have all those factors that are utterly external to the game itself, but which still do influence the choices people make. Look at the archetypes presented by the game: You have the Sorc, who is clearly a wizard type of character. And wizard in heavy armor is just not something that jives well with a lot of people. Wizards wear robes and wield sticks right? And what about the nightblade then? Clearly a stealthy rogue or assassin type fellow - clanking about in a full set of plate armor? Yeah not gonna happen. The prevalence of heavy armor among DK is also obvious, when one realizes that the class has the word knight in it! Of course people who wanna play as tin cans are gonna be drawn towards that class. I mean it's either that or be a Templar, who can either be the squishy healer dressed in a skirt, or the paladin strutting about in shining armor. But... Well a lot of people shy away from the knight in shining armor - a lot of people wanna play Dark Knights and the Dragon Knight fits that bill much better.

So yeah... I am not at all surprised that among all the various people who play the game, that there is still a significant bias towards wearing something else than heavy armor. And I am not even surprised that there are lot more people running with light than medium. But this is not due to any objective value or usefulness of the armor sets themselves - it's a product of culture that has shunned heavy armor for most of it's existence.

In the end, heavy is a costlier option, requires a radically different gameplay strategy, and may very well go against the archetype you are trying to emulate with your character. But none of these, as such, have any real relevance, on whether or not Heavy armor is balanced with other armor. That is something that depends fully on the utility, survivability and the synergy with abilities that heavy armor provide. Whether or not people choose to adopt a playstyle that require heavy armor, is irrelevant, and ultimately not something ZOS can do much about either.

What is clear, is that Heavy armor is becomming more and more common in PVP. As more people learn to adapt to the different playsytle, pull together a new set of heavy legendary gear, they also realize that it performs really really well. Is it better than Medium... hard to say, but it clearly is beter than Light, but then again, Medium also is clearly better than Light. And if you are running around in Light armor, and come across a foe clad in Heavy, more often than not, it's the Heavy that prevails in the end these days.

So as long as you are willing to grind for new sets, pay the obnoxious amount of gold it takes to get heavy to legendary, level up your heavy armor skill, and learn to play with the different approach that heavy armor requires, chances are that the new build will prove to be superior to your old.

So to summarize - there is data, and then there is relevant data. The trick is to realize which is which and act accordingly.

magnusthorek wrote: »

The simple fact of one of the top dog bosses in the company spared some minutes do give attention to this topic, gave me back a bit of all trust I deposited into this game, in all aspects.

Very well done, Mr. @ZOS_RichLambert! This is what several serious players are really looking for and expecting anxiously!

The suggestion of having "some intern", or anything as capable of raising such data and show it publicly would tremendously viable, not only for the curiosity, but for yourselves too.

Think about it! If you make more of this data go public and for some reason what's thought to be BiS might not be really be, and this will, perhaps, incentivize people to try different things, which directly or not, will provide you even more diverse data for studying

Transparency is welcomed anywhere!

He picked out one point. Still waiting on hard data for dragons blood. Aoe caps? Stam dps? Weapon ults? Maelstrom weapons? CP system? Soul assault? #NoETA

@Hymzir

Very well put. I was also wondering what criteria cause people being included in this presented to us data. PvE players in campaign dominated by their faction also?

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

These posts give me life. It's almost like the people running this multi-million dollar game are all competent professionals with years of industry experience, and are using the latest techniques in data science to inform their decisions at all points of the development lifecycle.

Any eta on the rest of your hard data?

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Can we get a graph of players who die to jesus beam vs anything else?

Is this what you are struggling with now @FENGRUSH ? First it was the OP healing, now it's RD? Something is always getting in your way ! Would you like a tissue ?

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Can we get a graph of players who die to jesus beam vs anything else?

^

Although, the data would be incorrect because Jesus Beam is never the last blow. It's cast on you at 50% health and the guy who you're actually fighting hits you once and you die.

It would be more interesting to see which skills do the most dps in Cyrodiil though.

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Can we get a graph of players who die to jesus beam vs anything else?

Is this what you are struggling with now @FENGRUSH ? First it was the OP healing, not it's RD? Something is always getting in your way !

Healing is still crazy across the boards - its just the fact that you can burst better now. People who know how to build their char can still deal pretty well with it.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Can we get a graph of players who die to jesus beam vs anything else?

Is this what you are struggling with now @FENGRUSH ? First it was the OP healing, not it's RD? Something is always getting in your way !

Healing is still crazy across the boards - its just the fact that you can burst better now. People who know how to build their char can still deal pretty well with it.

Hey man, I just watch your stream and do enjoy it sometimes. You just used to *** about healing a lot. WTH do you think a build made for healing is supposed to do ? I have to admit, I would enjoy healing through your STORC in PvP, just to know you are raging.

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Can we get a graph of players who die to jesus beam vs anything else?

Is this what you are struggling with now @FENGRUSH ? First it was the OP healing, not it's RD? Something is always getting in your way !

Healing is still crazy across the boards - its just the fact that you can burst better now. People who know how to build their char can still deal pretty well with it.

Hey man, I just watch your stream and do enjoy it sometimes. You just used to *** about healing a lot. WTH do you think a build made for healing is supposed to do ? I have to admit, I would enjoy healing through your STORC in PvP, just to know you are raging.

Its really not a simple issue of nerf <X>. Its a bunch of stuff. I bitched about healing more when the best ult I had was a meteor that hit for 4-5k on a permablocking templar that didnt run out of mana. The thing thats majorly changed is my ult isnt complete garbage and penetration is more in line to allow bursting.

Healing is still crazy, stam or mag. So is damage. Not going into it on this thread.