Heavy armor, overbuffed af?

Sharee · September 2016

Black rose constitution bonus basically gives a 260 stamina/magicka regen IF you wear 7 heavy and IF you are getting constantly hit. If those 2 conditions are not met the regen is even smaller.

There are extreme-damage medium armor builds running around with 3K+ regens... How someone can think 260 regen is so overpowered is beyond me.

AnviOfVai · September 2016

[/quo

Wing wrote: »

btw if your annoyed at black rose being half way decent, or troll builds that are heavy reactive maulbeth. be aware that there are annoying and troll builds for every armor class not just heavy, heavy just finally got some decent sets.

vicious death proxy (insert ult of choice) bombs, the velidreth viper red mountain "win by proc" the eternal hunt "rolly polly" builds.

PVP will ALWAYS be annoying, regardless of armor.

That rolly polly dude who continously goes around objects dropping the snares, and the dude who jumps in the middle with teather, proxy and viscious death linked on..THOSE are.....something else. Blackrose is at the best it can be, tanks are built to last longer taking damage. the armor has to do that too... If i saw a sorc taking more damage than a tank in light armor i would start to fear for the game.

Edziu · September 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Nah, heavy armor is in a pretty good place at the moment. If anything is overbuffed it's all the burst damage sets.

yea, for me after thinking...heavy armor is ok....but sets avaible on heavy armor are doing it overbuffed, just need also to create julianos or hundings rage in heavy armor and voilà heavy sustain armor + good stacked damage, this combo is pretty to strong, high armr etc, just all what @leepalmer95 wrote + still higher something with damage for better hits

jhharvest · September 2016

Wing wrote: »

not in the slightest.

only people that cannot one shot complain about heavy armor. people give up so much to be able to survive just a little bit and every full [SNIP] DPS cries about it. proof lies in the complaints about reactive that does nothing to increase damage but helps mitigate gank damage, its literally an anti gank set and everyone cries about. sorry, not sorry.

if everything were balanced 1 out of every 3 people would be wearing heavy armor.

imagine all the forum tears if heavy armor were that viable .

This is incorrect. People complain about heavy armour because there are competitive groups that run 70% templars in heavy.

Usually people retort to that with "Well if they're built to tank, they aren't dealing any damage". But that's not true anymore because of wrath and a few other tricks.

So either you're intentionally trying to muddle the issue, or you just haven't encountered it. Either way you're incorrect.

Rex-Umbra · September 2016

Heavy is actually under powered.

NoMoreChillies · September 2016

Thinking of swapping my Black Rose for Seducer. That constitution is not as great as it sounds

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Heavy is actually under powered.

Have you not played the patch since heavy got buffed or something?

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Black rose constitution bonus basically gives a 260 stamina/magicka regen IF you wear 7 heavy and IF you are getting constantly hit. If those 2 conditions are not met the regen is even smaller.

There are extreme-damage medium armor builds running around with 3K+ regens... How someone can think 260 regen is so overpowered is beyond me.

Who runs with 3k regen?

This isn't a black rose thread, this is a heavy armour thread, but with black rose you basically get 650 mag/stam regen.

650 Mag AND Stamina from wearing the 'tanky' type of armour.

#Balance.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2016

olsborg wrote: »

So I tried heavy armor (black rose) yesterday for the first time, ive been either light armor or medium armor in this game since the start. I found it insanely stronger then either of the other 2 armor types, imo they overbuffed it by FAR.

Toughts?

You think that's OP 5 Black Rose, 5 Twin Sisters (now in jewelry) and 2 Engine Guardian. Say goodbye to balance.

Lylith · September 2016

Ahzek wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

not in the slightest.

only people that cannot one shot complain about heavy armor. people give up so much to be able to survive just a little bit and every full re**rd DPS cries about it. proof lies in the complaints about reactive that does nothing to increase damage but helps mitigate gank damage, its literally an anti gank set and everyone cries about. sorry, not sorry.

if everything were balanced 1 out of every 3 people would be wearing heavy armor.

imagine all the forum tears if heavy armor were that viable .

Reactive is not just an anti gank set, its an anti burst set in a meta where to only way to kill people solo is through high burst. Naturally people will complain about a set that is pretty much designed to counter the current meta.
Everything would be fine and fun if this would mean that people can just move on to sustained DPS builds in order to have success, but the game does simply not support that playstyle in PvP and this is where reactve becomes over the top. When something is a hard counter to the only viable option it is too powerful.
Now I dont think they should nerf reactive, but instead make changes to the game that allow more offensive playstyles to have success in PvP, so that it is not a guaranteed life protection against solo players.

Edit: and just a quick comment on the popularity of heavy armor: in the last few duel sessions ive taken part in, it is probably fair to say that about 50% of all non magicka sorc participants have been running at least 5 pieces heavy armor, if not more.[/quote]

and they hit like trucks, even without c/p.

Waffennacht · September 2016

Im still amazed people are thinking HA is OP.

You say:

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Black rose constitution bonus basically gives a 260 stamina/magicka regen IF you wear 7 heavy and IF you are getting constantly hit. If those 2 conditions are not met the regen is even smaller.

There are extreme-damage medium armor builds running around with 3K+ regens... How someone can think 260 regen is so overpowered is beyond me.

Who runs with 3k regen?

This isn't a black rose thread, this is a heavy armour thread, but with black rose you basically get 650 mag/stam regen.

650 Mag AND Stamina from wearing the 'tanky' type of armour.

#Balance.

And medium reduces stam cost by 20% and provides 15% more stam recovery

Heavy at full proc provides 300ish wpn and spll dmg, all med sit at 3k wpn dmg unbuffed - meaning a 360 weapon dmg minimum increase by medium

Heavy provides more heavy attack stat return (lmfao at the player that needs heavy attacks for sustainability in this meta)

Medium provides Crit chance

Heavy provides more armor (but again by 25% more only and taking into penetration that's at most a 5 to 7% dmg decrease? Or taking a 12k SA to 11.3k .... (sooo OP that 700 dmg reduction! !!)

More health and better heals are like decent but in no way OP... they maybe add one more hits worth of damage.

Top Tier builds never have sustain issues.

Heavy Armor is finally viable.

I remember when we had posts like "wtf is the point of heavy armor? I can reach max resistance in light!"

FearlessOne_2014 · September 2016

Wollust wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Not at all, I play a heavy armor stam DK and a heavy armor magicka templar in PvP. Yet I still call your statement regarding heavy armor out. Heavy armor is completely viable and not stronger or weaker than light/medium armor, if we disregard black rose and reactive.
And reactive is especially cancerous because it's bugged, proccing from stuff it simply shouldn't. At least black rose is simply overtuned but not bugged or anything.

I would disagree to a point.

I agree that we are finally getting to a point that heavy armor is viable, its taken over 2 years, but were getting there. I would disagree that reactive and black rose are over tuned (bugs aside) and that they are simply the favorites (as there always are) its simply like kags, or vicious death, viper, red mountain, twice born.

there are always going to be favored sets

I will change my opinion the day I see trial 12 man groups with more then 1-2 people wearing heavy armor.

I will say I'm not surprised that the introduction of duels might foster a return of some heavy armor builds when your in a legit 1v1

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why should a non tank be wearing heavy to show it's balanced? If a DPS would wear heavy armor and pull competitive numbers that would be a thing to worry about. In PvE, there is a pretty clear distinction. Heavy armor for tanks, light and medium for DPS (and healers ofc). Heavy armor has always been fine in PvE. It was falling behind in PvP, but by now it's completely fine.

Except you are forgetting, because light armor is highly under tuned atm. Many Magicka players are "Forced into using Heavy Armor just to survive past the first CC of a Stamina gank. I bet if Light armor was brought upto par with Medium armor, many would drop heavy armor in a instant.

Solariken wrote: »

Nah, heavy armor is in a pretty good place at the moment. If anything is overbuffed it's all the burst damage sets.

Pretty much, and is also one of the main reasons people are swapping out to heavy. I mean play in a age where burst damage set have no counters when facing off against a light armored caster. So ofc the caster is going to switch over to something that will help it survive past the first CC.

If players are crying that they can not get free effortless kills. That they have to actually somewhat work for some kills. Even tho they already been giving a stacked deck. Then those players should cannibalized by the community at large. These type of players are the type of players, that play a active role in killing MMOs.

Bobby_V_Rockit · September 2016

I love my heavy armour. All the buffs outweigh any minor increase to DPS on my build. But, noone ever agrees with that, so I dont normally share my build details because I cbf dealing with "your gimping yourself, L2P, noob" comments.

But medium armour resistance 15k vs. heavy 22k? I think I'll stick with heavy.

Kelces · September 2016

A guild mate once somewhat jokingly said in the TS, that heavy armor is OP after gong full heavy, but he is a DK with shield and loves to be on the front lines. In other words: It's very effective right now.

On the other hand, I would agree to see some improvement on the other armor types and there has been at least one thread mentioning this issue. But I think, it originates more from the various new sets than simply heavy armor in general.

I too have both light and heavy armors and experienced the huge difference. Maybe most people simply like to be tanky in PvP, whatever role they take just to survive a little bit longer, therefore we see almost always this one type of armor (with a few exceptions of course). In my view, many choose more comfortable ways, especially in PvP, it has always been that way - remember the "Elder Staffs Online" times?

tplink3r1 · September 2016

Do we really need more "buff dps" threads? Just stop, please.

Samuel_Bantien · September 2016

Heavy Armor is in a fine spot, the same can be said about medium armor. Light armor, however, needs some serious tuning up - and the next update doesn't help light armor at all.

Sharee · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Black rose constitution bonus basically gives a 260 stamina/magicka regen IF you wear 7 heavy and IF you are getting constantly hit. If those 2 conditions are not met the regen is even smaller.

There are extreme-damage medium armor builds running around with 3K+ regens... How someone can think 260 regen is so overpowered is beyond me.

Who runs with 3k regen?

This isn't a black rose thread, this is a heavy armour thread, but with black rose you basically get 650 mag/stam regen.

650 Mag AND Stamina from wearing the 'tanky' type of armour.

#Balance.

1, Black rose only adds 260 regen on top of what heavy armor normally gives, but only with 7 heavy.
2, The total you will have from full black rose is 910 regen - however, if you are not being hit, you have 0 regen.
3, To get this regen, you lose very significant skill cost reduction and passive regen bonuses (21% and 28%, respectively)

In other words, compared to light/medium, the regen in heavy is nothing to write home about, even in full black rose. And the "tankiness" is a dubious benefit, given how much penetration players can stack. Most of the tankiness you see in PvP today comes from blocking/shielding/rolling, not armor.

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Black rose constitution bonus basically gives a 260 stamina/magicka regen IF you wear 7 heavy and IF you are getting constantly hit. If those 2 conditions are not met the regen is even smaller.

There are extreme-damage medium armor builds running around with 3K+ regens... How someone can think 260 regen is so overpowered is beyond me.

Who runs with 3k regen?

This isn't a black rose thread, this is a heavy armour thread, but with black rose you basically get 650 mag/stam regen.

650 Mag AND Stamina from wearing the 'tanky' type of armour.

#Balance.

1, Black rose only adds 260 regen on top of what heavy armor normally gives, but only with 7 heavy.
2, The total you will have from full black rose is 910 regen - however, if you are not being hit, you have 0 regen.
3, To get this regen, you lose very significant skill cost reduction and passive regen bonuses (21% and 28%, respectively)

In other words, compared to light/medium, the regen in heavy is nothing to write home about, even in full black rose. And the "tankiness" is a dubious benefit, given how much penetration players can stack. Most of the tankiness you see in PvP today comes from blocking/shielding/rolling, not armor.

The regen is irrelevant considering no one has run regen since heavy got buffed. Whens the last time you've seen a stam sorc run regen? They don't need too heavy + OP dark deal is all the sustain they need.

No one runs 7x heavy, it's either 5/1/1 or 5/2 , so you lose 18% reduction or 15% reduction. Which is still not that horrible considering people then fully spec in reduction.

Dracane · September 2016

Heavy armor has the best passives and in my opinion, better offensive sets than light armor.
Heavy armor gives up to 300 spell damage, that's 300 more than light armor. And spell damage is always better than penetration, as penetration is useless or not fully efficient against certain enemies.

Heavy armor offers the best sustain, best passive survival. It's overbuffed in my book. I don't know any serious player who hasn't switched to heavy armor, even magicka Sorcs.

juhasman · September 2016

We need to also consider what is coming in Update 12 in our talks here. Sets that gives 2k stam and 300 regen with drink or restoring 7k stam and hp while using ulti or set giving 4k penetration , or set that gives overall 6k stamina. Many of new sets will have jewelery and weapons what allows heavy armor users to wear them even it's medium armor and still have all heavy armor profits. There will be sets in Update 12 that possibly overbuff heavy armor stamina users even more then now.

leepalmer95 · September 2016

juhasman wrote: »

We need to also consider what is coming in Update 12 in our talks here. Sets that gives 2k stam and 300 regen with drink or restoring 7k stam and hp while using ulti or set giving 4k penetration , or set that gives overall 6k stamina. Many of new sets will have jewelery and weapons what allows heavy armor users to wear them even it's medium armor and still have all heavy armor profits. There will be sets in Update 12 that possibly overbuff heavy armor stamina users even more then now.

Oh really, you don't say...

People complain about the stam meta, zos buff's it. Nice to see zos are still the same and still have 0 clue about their own game.

Sharee · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Black rose constitution bonus basically gives a 260 stamina/magicka regen IF you wear 7 heavy and IF you are getting constantly hit. If those 2 conditions are not met the regen is even smaller.

There are extreme-damage medium armor builds running around with 3K+ regens... How someone can think 260 regen is so overpowered is beyond me.

Who runs with 3k regen?

This isn't a black rose thread, this is a heavy armour thread, but with black rose you basically get 650 mag/stam regen.

650 Mag AND Stamina from wearing the 'tanky' type of armour.

#Balance.

1, Black rose only adds 260 regen on top of what heavy armor normally gives, but only with 7 heavy.
2, The total you will have from full black rose is 910 regen - however, if you are not being hit, you have 0 regen.
3, To get this regen, you lose very significant skill cost reduction and passive regen bonuses (21% and 28%, respectively)

In other words, compared to light/medium, the regen in heavy is nothing to write home about, even in full black rose. And the "tankiness" is a dubious benefit, given how much penetration players can stack. Most of the tankiness you see in PvP today comes from blocking/shielding/rolling, not armor.

The regen is irrelevant considering no one has run regen since heavy got buffed. Whens the last time you've seen a stam sorc run regen? They don't need too heavy + OP dark deal is all the sustain they need.

No one runs 7x heavy, it's either 5/1/1 or 5/2 , so you lose 18% reduction or 15% reduction. Which is still not that horrible considering people then fully spec in reduction.

But if you do that, black rose only adds 185 regen(again, only if you are continually being hit), which is bordering on insignificant.

And IDK what dark deal has to do with heavy armor.

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Black rose constitution bonus basically gives a 260 stamina/magicka regen IF you wear 7 heavy and IF you are getting constantly hit. If those 2 conditions are not met the regen is even smaller.

There are extreme-damage medium armor builds running around with 3K+ regens... How someone can think 260 regen is so overpowered is beyond me.

Who runs with 3k regen?

This isn't a black rose thread, this is a heavy armour thread, but with black rose you basically get 650 mag/stam regen.

650 Mag AND Stamina from wearing the 'tanky' type of armour.

#Balance.

1, Black rose only adds 260 regen on top of what heavy armor normally gives, but only with 7 heavy.
2, The total you will have from full black rose is 910 regen - however, if you are not being hit, you have 0 regen.
3, To get this regen, you lose very significant skill cost reduction and passive regen bonuses (21% and 28%, respectively)

In other words, compared to light/medium, the regen in heavy is nothing to write home about, even in full black rose. And the "tankiness" is a dubious benefit, given how much penetration players can stack. Most of the tankiness you see in PvP today comes from blocking/shielding/rolling, not armor.

The regen is irrelevant considering no one has run regen since heavy got buffed. Whens the last time you've seen a stam sorc run regen? They don't need too heavy + OP dark deal is all the sustain they need.

No one runs 7x heavy, it's either 5/1/1 or 5/2 , so you lose 18% reduction or 15% reduction. Which is still not that horrible considering people then fully spec in reduction.

But if you do that, black rose only adds 185 regen(again, only if you are continually being hit), which is bordering on insignificant.

And IDK what dark deal has to do with heavy armor.

And again were talking about heavy in general, not black rose. 5x black rose add's 1300~ from constitution , which is 650 mag/stam regen each.

Sharee · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Black rose constitution bonus basically gives a 260 stamina/magicka regen IF you wear 7 heavy and IF you are getting constantly hit. If those 2 conditions are not met the regen is even smaller.

There are extreme-damage medium armor builds running around with 3K+ regens... How someone can think 260 regen is so overpowered is beyond me.

Who runs with 3k regen?

This isn't a black rose thread, this is a heavy armour thread, but with black rose you basically get 650 mag/stam regen.

650 Mag AND Stamina from wearing the 'tanky' type of armour.

#Balance.

1, Black rose only adds 260 regen on top of what heavy armor normally gives, but only with 7 heavy.
2, The total you will have from full black rose is 910 regen - however, if you are not being hit, you have 0 regen.
3, To get this regen, you lose very significant skill cost reduction and passive regen bonuses (21% and 28%, respectively)

In other words, compared to light/medium, the regen in heavy is nothing to write home about, even in full black rose. And the "tankiness" is a dubious benefit, given how much penetration players can stack. Most of the tankiness you see in PvP today comes from blocking/shielding/rolling, not armor.

The regen is irrelevant considering no one has run regen since heavy got buffed. Whens the last time you've seen a stam sorc run regen? They don't need too heavy + OP dark deal is all the sustain they need.

No one runs 7x heavy, it's either 5/1/1 or 5/2 , so you lose 18% reduction or 15% reduction. Which is still not that horrible considering people then fully spec in reduction.

But if you do that, black rose only adds 185 regen(again, only if you are continually being hit), which is bordering on insignificant.

And IDK what dark deal has to do with heavy armor.

And again were talking about heavy in general, not black rose. 5x black rose add's 1300~ from constitution , which is 650 mag/stam regen each.

If you are talking about heavy in general and not black rose then why do you keep posting black rose numbers.

5 pieces heavy armor in general gives 465 mag/stam regen. And again,that is only true if you are constantly being hit. Which is about one extra flame lash every 9 seconds. That's not my definition of overpowered.

Lord_Eomer · September 2016

I do not think its OP and stop asking to nerf!

You guys want the whole game to nerf! Trials, dungeons, PVP, XP Grinding (thats why we had veteran rank Removal), class, race and now every armor?

Stop such threads, with one tamerial there are huge variety of amazing sets comming up and seriously who cares about Balck Rose.

Abob · September 2016

Ahzek wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

not in the slightest.

only people that cannot one shot complain about heavy armor. people give up so much to be able to survive just a little bit and every full re**rd DPS cries about it. proof lies in the complaints about reactive that does nothing to increase damage but helps mitigate gank damage, its literally an anti gank set and everyone cries about. sorry, not sorry.

if everything were balanced 1 out of every 3 people would be wearing heavy armor.

imagine all the forum tears if heavy armor were that viable .

Reactive is not just an anti gank set, its an anti burst set in a meta where to only way to kill people solo is through high burst. Naturally people will complain about a set that is pretty much designed to counter the current meta.
Everything would be fine and fun if this would mean that people can just move on to sustained DPS builds in order to have success, but the game does simply not support that playstyle in PvP and this is where reactve becomes over the top. When something is a hard counter to the only viable option it is too powerful.
Now I dont think they should nerf reactive, but instead make changes to the game that allow more offensive playstyles to have success in PvP, so that it is not a guaranteed life protection against solo players.

Edit: and just a quick comment on the popularity of heavy armor: in the last few duel sessions ive taken part in, it is probably fair to say that about 50% of all non magicka sorc participants have been running at least 5 pieces heavy armor, if not more.

Reactive is the only armor set that actually feels like heavy armor, cause it provides real mitigation, unlike armors that just provide more physical or spell resistance, which mean nothing against the amount of armor penetration that is currently in the game.

SanTii.92 · September 2016

Black rose is single handedly choking balance to death

Sharee · September 2016

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Black rose is single handedly choking balance to death

Velidreth procs instakill you, vigor outheals all your damage that isn't dodge rolled - but what REALLY chokes balance to death is

*drumrolls*

extra 260 regen. *sigh*

damtotb16_ESO · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

not in the slightest.

only people that cannot one shot complain about heavy armor. people give up so much to be able to survive just a little bit and every full re**rd DPS cries about it. proof lies in the complaints about reactive that does nothing to increase damage but helps mitigate gank damage, its literally an anti gank set and everyone cries about. sorry, not sorry.

if everything were balanced 1 out of every 3 people would be wearing heavy armor.

imagine all the forum tears if heavy armor were that viable .

And what do they give up exactly?

Sustain? Constitution has better sustain than medium or light? 50% more back on heavy attacks.
Damage? Wraith.
Healing? Nah extra 8%
Survivability? Nah heavy = more armour

Oh and 10% more hp too.

Is there anything heavy doesn't give?

Either you don't think over before posting or you are don't know the game mechanics, or both

Strider_Roshin · September 2016

Considering the fact that my heavy armored stam DK is the only character of mine that doesn't need to run the serpent stone, yeah I'd say they were over-buffed.