Proposed Blackrose change
Xinthisis
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Currently Blackrose is overperforming for stamina based builds in pvp. The set has it all, from tankiness (impen and its heavy armor), sustain (1300+ return to resources which translates into 650+ regen that cant be canceled out by blocking or sprinting), and damage (150 spell/weapon damage and 2 max stam buffs). Now, I understand what the set was meant to be, and thats a somewhat balanced hybrid/tank sustain build. Not a high burst, high sustain build. The proposed "nerfs" I would suggest is to first change one of the max stam buffs to a max magicka buff, and to reduce the constitution buff to 30% or COMPLETELY remove the 150 spell and weapon damage buff. With the changes to heavy armor in most cases blackrose is able to stack more damage than medium armor builds (200wd from wrath passive+150wd from set bonus with the 2 max stam buffs), while still sustaining and tanking better than medium armor. Remove around 1200 stam, and 150 weapon damage and you'll start to see more variety in builds again. Especially with the new sets coming out soon.
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susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You are forgetting one thing. You get Magicka back while blocking but not stamina. Stamina PvP heavy armor builds need this to sustain.5 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭You are forgetting one thing. You get Magicka back while blocking but not stamina. Stamina PvP heavy armor builds need this to sustain.
People are using blackrose as a dps build, not as a tanking build. Why does it have weapon damage and spell damage, but then have 2 max stam buffs? Blackrose is overperforming. You can keep your sustain and ability to block. Just remove the insane damage aspects of the set. Get rid of the weapon damage and spell damage, and change one stam buff to magicka. Also, if you're blocking as anything outside of a dk you're asking to get killed by running out of stam.2 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You are forgetting one thing. You get Magicka back while blocking but not stamina. Stamina PvP heavy armor builds need this to sustain.
People are using blackrose as a dps build, not as a tanking build. Why does it have weapon damage and spell damage, but then have 2 max stam buffs? Blackrose is overperforming. You can keep your sustain and ability to block. Just remove the insane damage aspects of the set. Get rid of the weapon damage and spell damage, and change one stam buff to magicka. Also, if you're blocking as anything outside of a dk you're asking to get killed by running out of stam.
Well, magicka got heavy armor DPS builds. But for stamina to do the same, Black Rose is must.7 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You are forgetting one thing. You get Magicka back while blocking but not stamina. Stamina PvP heavy armor builds need this to sustain.
People are using blackrose as a dps build, not as a tanking build. Why does it have weapon damage and spell damage, but then have 2 max stam buffs? Blackrose is overperforming. You can keep your sustain and ability to block. Just remove the insane damage aspects of the set. Get rid of the weapon damage and spell damage, and change one stam buff to magicka. Also, if you're blocking as anything outside of a dk you're asking to get killed by running out of stam.
You don't know blocking too well do you? My tank is a Templar and can block just fine, with NO investment in max Stamina.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy3 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Agree to changing one of the stat bonuses to magicka for balance. I think it's fine after that, I like that the IC DLC has some attractive sets to hopefully keep it alive.
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Xinthisis✭✭✭✭People are running burst builds with it, because it gives better sustain then medium armor. Take away the damage aspects of it, and tanks will still use it the same way they have been. Just 2h/bow 1 shot builds wont, or will at least try to find something that suits their playstyle better.0
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GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't understand a couple of things about the heavy Armour and sword + board skill-lines (includes Black Rose opinion). I believe Black Rose is an issue but there are also issues with S+B and Heavy Armour that extenuate the Black Rose Issue.- 1: Why does Sword and Board have an increase to weapon damage passive?
- 2: Why does heavy Armour grant weapon damage after taking damage?
- 3: Why should black rose grant both damage and sustain?
- 4: Why should bashing with Sword and Board cost less?
1: I have the same opinions about Sword and Board passives giving you weapon damage. Why should the Defensive weapon skill-line be granting you more damage? If you want more damage you should be using 2H or DW which are more offensive weapon skill-lines. I personally would much rather see the amount of damage you can block increased instead of weapon damage.
2: Heavy Armour getting more damage over-time also kind of seem's not necessary. You pick up heavy Armour to be tanky. I'd much rather see heavy Armour grant more resistances over-time while you take damage instead. I don't think it's right that heavy Armour can become competitive in damage to light or medium Armour wearers over-time in a fight when heavy Armour is suppose to be the tanky Armour skill-line.
3: I'm not a fan of Black Rose because it gives you damage as well as very good sustain. It's the complete package set for heavy Armour. Heavy Armour users should have to decide between damage vs resource sustain. This set has a lot of both and it's kind of over-kill in my opinion.
4: I don't understand why Bashing should cost less stamina compared to other weapon types. I find it funny that ZOS thinks its easier to bash someone with a giant heavy shield then it is compared to the other weapon types. I'm fine with the extra damage because your getting hit by a big heavy shield.
Personally i think this "light attack, ability, bash" rotation should be abolished. Bashing should be used not to gain a dps boost. Bashing should be used tactically to interrupt ability's and such. So in my opinion i'd much rather see the increase to bash damage be increased by double but only proc when you successfully interrupt an attack.
These are my opinions and concerns about heavy Armour which includes my opinion on Black Rose also.
Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on September 4, 2016 8:21PMPS4 NA DC5 -
Mashille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What's so wrong with people using a Heavy Armour set for DPS? People shouldn't be forced to Run Medium armour if they want to do DPS.
It provides less DPS than many Medium armours and also means you cannot dodge roll as much as a means for mitigation getting mitigation more from blocking and giving more survivability. Personally I think it's ok as it is.House Baratheon: 'Ours Is The Fury'16 -
Unsent.Soul✭✭✭✭✭
✭First reactive (can be OP) and now this?
NERF ALL IC HEAVY SETS!!!!
/extreme sarcasm.3 -
KramUzibra✭✭✭✭Rage_Killin wrote: »Black rose is fine.You are forgetting one thing. You get Magicka back while blocking but not stamina. Stamina PvP heavy armor builds need this to sustain.
People are using blackrose as a dps build, not as a tanking build. Why does it have weapon damage and spell damage, but then have 2 max stam buffs? Blackrose is overperforming. You can keep your sustain and ability to block. Just remove the insane damage aspects of the set. Get rid of the weapon damage and spell damage, and change one stam buff to magicka. Also, if you're blocking as anything outside of a dk you're asking to get killed by running out
I disagree black rose is working fine2 -
Malibulove✭✭✭Some huge misconceptions in this thread. Black Rose is very much an Outlast build more than a Burst build, it provides nothing to help you 100>0 somebody right out the gate, and everything to help you empty their stamina/magicka while retaining your own.
Nobody uses Black Rose as a "DPS 1-shot build", you lose a sizable amount of Stamina, Weapon Damage, and Crit Rating by being in Heavy Armor. Real gankbuilds are all using Medium armor 5-pieces in conjunction with Viper's Sting. The Max Stamina and Weapon Damage set bonuses are just to give the set some semblance of Stats, Compared to NMG, Eternal Hunt, Shield Breaker, Marksman, etc.. the passive stats are nothing.
The benefit Black Rose provides is giving characters the resources to live long enough while being mobile, but the trade-off has always been the loss of DPS. Look at any Heavy vs Medium 2H builds, the players running Black Rose will always have lower Weapon Damage, Regeneration, Crit, and Max Stamina.
Not to say you can't kill people with Black Rose, far from it, but there's a clear trade-off. If I equipped Black Rose on my StamSorc I would lose 700~ Weapon damage right out the gate, but then if I equipped Black Rose it wouldn't be because I needed more DPS it would be because I needed more sustain/survivability.
Chill Bro of Chill Bros
Hooked-on-a-Feeling - Stamsorc (EP)
Freddíe Mercury - Lead singer of Queen (EP)
A Blizzard Wizard Lizard - P2Warden (DC)
Prequels Anakin - Mageblade (AD)14 -
The_Duke✭✭✭✭I have no problem with black rose. In fact there are multiple ways to build for damage and sustain with other sets. I dont even use it and I sit at 3900 weapon damage and 1800 stam regen when buffed. Ive also hit 5k weapon damage and 1300 regen with a kena proc in 5 heavy 2 medium and swapping mundus stones. 30 000 hp and 34 000 Stam in cyrodiil 25 000k resistances.
I dont need Black Rose
Regards,
The DukeEdited by The_Duke on September 4, 2016 10:22PMThe Duke
Stamplar
Guild leader of The Dukes. PS43 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭Malibulove wrote: »Some huge misconceptions in this thread. Black Rose is very much an Outlast build more than a Burst build, it provides nothing to help you 100>0 somebody right out the gate, and everything to help you empty their stamina/magicka while retaining your own.
Nobody uses Black Rose as a "DPS 1-shot build", you lose a sizable amount of Stamina, Weapon Damage, and Crit Rating by being in Heavy Armor. Real gankbuilds are all using Medium armor 5-pieces in conjunction with Viper's Sting. The Max Stamina and Weapon Damage set bonuses are just to give the set some semblance of Stats, Compared to NMG, Eternal Hunt, Shield Breaker, Marksman, etc.. the passive stats are nothing.
The benefit Black Rose provides is giving characters the resources to live long enough while being mobile, but the trade-off has always been the loss of DPS. Look at any Heavy vs Medium 2H builds, the players running Black Rose will always have lower Weapon Damage, Regeneration, Crit, and Max Stamina.
Not to say you can't kill people with Black Rose, far from it, but there's a clear trade-off. If I equipped Black Rose on my StamSorc I would lose 700~ Weapon damage right out the gate, but then if I equipped Black Rose it wouldn't be because I needed more DPS it would be because I needed more sustain/survivability.
2 max stam buffs, and 150 weapon damage is definitely there to help you drop people. Most are running blackrose for the tankiness and sustain it provides, with the added benefit that you gain damage as well. You dont lose a sizeable amount of max stam with heavy(you dont lose any at all really and you actually gain max health), and while you do lack the 12% weapon damage buff from medium armor you gain it in the wrath passive. full wrath passive+black rose=more weapon damage then 5 hundings with 12% weapon damage armor buff. Crit is good, but not great as shields are uncrittable. Yet, most that run blackrose use the thief stone allowing players to get just above 41% crit rating. So in the end you gain more survivability, more damage, and more sustain over medium armor builds. If you want to see who 1 shots with it on, just look up kodipvp. There is a reason people are using blackrose over other heavy armor sets at the competitive levels of play. Its not because "its fine".
Keep your sustain with it. Just get rid of the damage on it. We have a heavy armor damage set, its called Dreugh King.0 -
Cronopoly✭✭✭✭✭2 max stam buffs, and 150 weapon damage is definitely there to help you drop people. Most are running blackrose for the tankiness and sustain it provides, with the added benefit that you gain damage as well. You dont lose a sizeable amount of max stam with heavy(you dont lose any at all really and you actually gain max health), and while you do lack the 12% weapon damage buff from medium armor you gain it in the wrath passive. full wrath passive+black rose=more weapon damage then 5 hundings with 12% weapon damage armor buff. Crit is good, but not great as shields are uncrittable. Yet, most that run blackrose use the thief stone allowing players to get just above 41% crit rating. So in the end you gain more survivability, more damage, and more sustain over medium armor builds. If you want to see who 1 shots with it on, just look up kodipvp. There is a reason people are using blackrose over other heavy armor sets at the competitive levels of play. Its not because "its fine".
Keep your sustain with it. Just get rid of the damage on it. We have a heavy armor damage set, its called Dreugh King.
Are you asking for a NERF from a NB perspective because there's one armor Build that outlasts you as a medium wearing NB? Curious what is your setup that you are calling out Black Rose?
I use it on one of my Tanks and it's just a complimentary piece, not the entire build.3 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭If you run heavy, ANY heavy armor, for dps.....nm for now.
Ooook. 1800÷4= 450 not 650.
Stam poison breaks any Heavy armor build unless dot heavy or Heavy attack is spammed. Heavy attack takes 3 seconds to charge and can be dodged easy.
Medium armor cost reduction almost negates stam poison.
Black Rose is fine. Your complaint is with heavy armor in general it sounds like. If anything heavy armor should have reduced movement speed.
Can keep going but think This is enough. Dont be mad your NB doesnt have a spammable regen source. Siphon is awesome.0 -
DHale✭✭✭✭✭
✭No its not over performing. No i don't have it and don't use it on any toon. My only concern is there is not a magic version. After that why is there only one good heavy armor set. That is what needs to be addressed. Nerfs have done nothing to help this game... AOE caps were a nerf, Ult gen a nerf, battle spirit a nerf. Dragon blood a nerf. Blocking nerfed, roll dodge nerf. Black Rose was already nerfed once. I would convert it back if it was up to me. Its ok to have the meta in a game. I would just like more than one option. Which is what we have.Sorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.3 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭If you run heavy, ANY heavy armor, for dps.....nm for now.
Ooook. 1800÷4= 450 not 650.
Stam poison breaks any Heavy armor build unless dot heavy or Heavy attack is spammed. Heavy attack takes 3 seconds to charge and can be dodged easy.
Medium armor cost reduction almost negates stam poison.
Black Rose is fine. Your complaint is with heavy armor in general it sounds like. If anything heavy armor should have reduced movement speed.
Can keep going but think This is enough. Dont be mad your NB doesnt have a spammable regen source. Siphon is awesome.
You do realize regen tics every 2 seconds right?
Stam poison breaks heavy armor? So now we're bringing in mechanics that arent related to armor now? K
The lengths people will go to defend things that are obviously too strong.
"We need magicka versions" smfh, thats not why magicka is crap. That's a whole separate discussion.1 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭2 max stam buffs, and 150 weapon damage is definitely there to help you drop people. Most are running blackrose for the tankiness and sustain it provides, with the added benefit that you gain damage as well. You dont lose a sizeable amount of max stam with heavy(you dont lose any at all really and you actually gain max health), and while you do lack the 12% weapon damage buff from medium armor you gain it in the wrath passive. full wrath passive+black rose=more weapon damage then 5 hundings with 12% weapon damage armor buff. Crit is good, but not great as shields are uncrittable. Yet, most that run blackrose use the thief stone allowing players to get just above 41% crit rating. So in the end you gain more survivability, more damage, and more sustain over medium armor builds. If you want to see who 1 shots with it on, just look up kodipvp. There is a reason people are using blackrose over other heavy armor sets at the competitive levels of play. Its not because "its fine".
Keep your sustain with it. Just get rid of the damage on it. We have a heavy armor damage set, its called Dreugh King.
Are you asking for a NERF from a NB perspective because there's one armor Build that outlasts you as a medium wearing NB? Curious what is your setup that you are calling out Black Rose?
I use it on one of my Tanks and it's just a complimentary piece, not the entire build.
I use it on my nb, and I realize the issues with it. The sustain, damage, and survivability is higher then any other 5 piece in game.
I dont just speak out of my rear end like most of the ESO community. I test, then I report, send feedback, or make a forum post.
BTW the changes I'm suggesting would not destroy anyones build, and would only push players to try and use other set ups. Right now best in slot for openworld solo/small group stam dps is 5 black rose, 2 velidreth and then either 5 viper, or agility and maelstrom weapons. The reason this is the best set up is because of the damage aspects black rose gives. Remove one max stam buff, and get rid of the weapon and spell damage. Keep the sustain, tanks still need it.1 -
Malibulove✭✭✭
2 max stam buffs, and 150 weapon damage is definitely there to help you drop people. Most are running blackrose for the tankiness and sustain it provides, with the added benefit that you gain damage as well. You dont lose a sizeable amount of max stam with heavy(you dont lose any at all really and you actually gain max health), and while you do lack the 12% weapon damage buff from medium armor you gain it in the wrath passive. full wrath passive+black rose=more weapon damage then 5 hundings with 12% weapon damage armor buff. Crit is good, but not great as shields are uncrittable. Yet, most that run blackrose use the thief stone allowing players to get just above 41% crit rating. So in the end you gain more survivability, more damage, and more sustain over medium armor builds. If you want to see who 1 shots with it on, just look up kodipvp. There is a reason people are using blackrose over other heavy armor sets at the competitive levels of play. Its not because "its fine".
Keep your sustain with it. Just get rid of the damage on it. We have a heavy armor damage set, its called Dreugh King.
That's a false equivalency though, there are plenty of builds that do phenomenal DPS regardless of what 5-piece you use.
And that's my point, Blackrose is in many cases completely tertiary to the damage potential of those builds. Whether it was Black Rose or something kind of awful like Shadow Walker, good players will be wrecking people as long as the rest of their kit is put together properly.
The reason for the popularity of Black Rose has nothing to do with the offensive stats it gives, so basing any potential changes or nerfs to Black Rose on that assumption is completely asinine.
Now if you want to talk about the sustain of Black Rose and how that's out of line, that would be a much more logical start-point. But complaining about the 154 Damage 5-piece as if that's the lynch-pin keeping Black Rose builds good is ridiculous because it's flat out not true.Chill Bro of Chill Bros
Hooked-on-a-Feeling - Stamsorc (EP)
Freddíe Mercury - Lead singer of Queen (EP)
A Blizzard Wizard Lizard - P2Warden (DC)
Prequels Anakin - Mageblade (AD)4 -
Edziu✭✭✭✭✭
✭black rose..overpower or no, idk...just heavy armor now, it is sick....as you go with heavy armor you are mostly going for tank, sustain etc but what I see today in game....heavy armor to op, sustain, damage, resources all together in 1 you have.
in light armr you have just mag dps and regen, in medium armor stam dps and regen (passive more rolldodges instead of damage shields in mage) in heavy armor you have very high resistances, can hit harder medium/light armor wearer than they hitting you in heavy.
I cant belive...when you in heavy armor on sustain build in example you will never die in 1vs1 agains anyone, you will dont kill someone else in sustain build in heavy armor but you are able to kill ligh/medium armors without bigger problems when they cant "touch" you.
now glass cannons are USELESS, you as glass cannon have no any f..... chance to kill someone in sustain build, normally sustain build shouldnt have to kill glass cannon so fast as for now...glass cannon ok..should be able to kill this heavy armored tank with max burst but now its impossible, max resistances, crit resistances, still perma blocking while 1vs1 and this sustain build have better burst agains glass cannon(can kill him in moment with own burst) while glass cannon agains this sustain have almost nothingEdited by Edziu on September 5, 2016 8:19AM1
