Proposed Blackrose change

Waffennacht

@Thelon got any math to back up Black Rose being OP?

[SNIP]

[Edited for Baiting]

Waffennacht

OP stands for Over Powered NOT Over Performing

I love how this WHOLE thread is scientific process and math vs "it's Over Poeered I feel it!"

It's like arguing with a blank wall

Erock25

Xinthisis wrote: »

Go and ask literally any knowledgeable pvp player if Blackrose is overperforming.

You are so full of it. You're literally saying you know everyone's opinion that is knowledgeable about pvp You realize how asinine that is, right? Your argument has broken down into 1.) here is a video of someone doing well in PVP with blackrose and 2.) here I will list 5 names of people who think blackrose is over performing in PVP. You know that your opinion and your small group of "friends" opinions mean absolutely nothing to anyone else, yeah? You can't just say I think black rose is overpowered because I think black rose is overpowered so it must be nerfed. That's not how it works.

Your version of a neutered blackrose is absolute garbage. If ZOS wanted to turn one of the stamina bonuses into magicka, that's fine by me, but if they remove the weapon/spell power, there is absolutely no reason to run blackrose.

Xinthisis wrote: »

wylievc wrote: »

Seems that this thread is biased towards people salty about not being able to glass cannon every opponent as a tactic; different builds have different counters that is balance. Why cant there be a viable set that makes playing with a sustainable build fun? Lots of exaggeration going on in this thread.

Black Rose is fine.

Except people are using black rose and still insta killing players... because its overperforming... I use Blackrose btw, and thats why I know how strong it is. If you need more proof of how strong blackrose is check out Kodipvp on twitch.
Heck, hop in his stream and ask him if he thinks Blackrose is too strong. Don't just take my word for it, research.

I love this quote here too. DO SOME RESEARCH.... by asking my buddy if he thinks blackrose is overpowered.

Waffennacht

@thelon i thought i had posted more as to why i don't feel black rose is OP on this thread, but it was a different one. [SNIP], here is the best answer from the other thread that deserves to be posted by @sharee

I

Sharee wrote: »

Take a stamina skill that costs 3000 stamina. In medium armor with 21% cost reduction, using that skill every second you "gain" 630 stamina every second (3000*0.21=630).

Doing the same in full black rose, you gain 1820 stamina every 4 second, or 455 stamina every second.

Right there, the medium armor is already pulling ~40% ahead, and we still did not account for the 28% stamina regeneration bonus.

Then, full black rose gives a 50% bonus on the stamina returned on heavy attack. But how much stamina is that actually in absolute numbers? Is it enough to compensate for a 28% stamina regen bonus of medium armor *and* for the ~40% lead described above? I have serious doubts about that.

Plus, the whole black rose hype goes into the gutter as soon as the one wearing it stops getting hit every 4 seconds, for example because in a 2v2, both opponents focused on your partner and you are not getting hit at all. Then all you can do is watch him get killed while your resources are dry, and then watch yourself get killed next.

And there are other considerations, too. Take for example major evasion. For a medium armor build, it is pure win. For a black rose build, it actually causes you to lose resources because an evaded attack does not trigger constitution resource returns.

[Edited for removed content]

Ernest145

Erock25 wrote: »

Xinthisis wrote: »

Go and ask literally any knowledgeable pvp player if Blackrose is overperforming.

You are so full of it. You're literally saying you know everyone's opinion that is knowledgeable about pvp You realize how asinine that is, right? Your argument has broken down into 1.) here is a video of someone doing well in PVP with blackrose and 2.) here I will list 5 names of people who think blackrose is over performing in PVP. You know that your opinion and your small group of "friends" opinions mean absolutely nothing to anyone else, yeah? You can't just say I think black rose is overpowered because I think black rose is overpowered so it must be nerfed. That's not how it works.

Your version of a neutered blackrose is absolute garbage. If ZOS wanted to turn one of the stamina bonuses into magicka, that's fine by me, but if they remove the weapon/spell power, there is absolutely no reason to run blackrose.

Xinthisis wrote: »

wylievc wrote: »

Seems that this thread is biased towards people salty about not being able to glass cannon every opponent as a tactic; different builds have different counters that is balance. Why cant there be a viable set that makes playing with a sustainable build fun? Lots of exaggeration going on in this thread.

Black Rose is fine.

Except people are using black rose and still insta killing players... because its overperforming... I use Blackrose btw, and thats why I know how strong it is. If you need more proof of how strong blackrose is check out Kodipvp on twitch.
Heck, hop in his stream and ask him if he thinks Blackrose is too strong. Don't just take my word for it, research.

I love this quote here too. DO SOME RESEARCH.... by asking my buddy if he thinks blackrose is overpowered.

It is OP

Like do you realize it gives nice bonuses for damage, boosts the constitution passive, and tankiness. That's not counting a lot of resources from heavy attacks especially if you put points into tenacity and the wrath passive gives more damage. This set combined with the heavy armor passives just offers way too much. In Kodi's video he is running blue food and the thief mundus, his build has 700 stam regen and he has amazing sustain and damage. It also returns magicka back so for stam dks, sorcs, and nightblades means they can use their magicka to give even more stam. this set offers literally everything just requires to change your playstyle a bit. You can even pair this set with viper if you wanted to. There is a reason why the top stam builds in the game are mostly running it.

Also, the unchained passive is also a huge part of his sustain and that is something that should be looked at. Kind of dumb when you can cast all your buffs at 80 percent reduce cost just for breaking free.

Sharee

Ernest145 wrote: »

Like do you realize it gives nice bonuses for damage, boosts the constitution passive, and tankiness. That's not counting a lot of resources from heavy attacks especially if you put points into tenacity and the wrath passive gives more damage.

And what exactly does black rose have to do with heavy attacks or tenacity and wrath?

Its like you guys throw together a powerful build that is 5% black rose and 95% everything else, make a video of the build doing well, and then point fingers:"Look! Look how overpowered black rose is!"

Ernest145

Sharee wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Like do you realize it gives nice bonuses for damage, boosts the constitution passive, and tankiness. That's not counting a lot of resources from heavy attacks especially if you put points into tenacity and the wrath passive gives more damage.

And what exactly does black rose have to do with heavy attacks or tenacity and wrath?

Its like you guys throw together a powerful build that is 5% black rose and 95% everything else, make a video of the build doing well, and then point fingers:"Look! Look how overpowered black rose is!"

Ernest145 wrote: »

In Kodi's video he is running blue food and the thief mundus, his build has 700 stam regen and he has amazing sustain and damage.

That's less black rose and more very low block cost combined with overpowered vigor, and low quality of his opponents.

It also showcases a special situation where constitution is strong (constantly taking lots of small attacks). I'd like to see how amazing his sustain would be if he was trying to kill someone who does not hit him back (for example because he is busy killing some squishie instead of beating on the tank)

I meant black rose combined with other heavy armor passives gives too much sustain and damage, you know something is unbalanced when you can run 700 regen and sustain easily and have great damage. Like I also said it gives more magicka sustain on top of that so even more stam for stamina builds that can use igneous or dark deal. Heavy armor passives got buffed and if you use black rose it just pushes it over the top.

I'm not sure what you mean about low block cost, he is on a 2h and bow stam sorc?? Lol if there are tanks around him he will be fine because he won't have to spend much resources being on the defensive. They wont do much damage and also tanks still do some sort of damage from different skills or light attacks, rarely do they just stand and hold block. If someone isn't attacking him and just being defensive he wont have to spend resources on his defensive buffs and heals so his sustain will be fine.

Waffennacht

BiS doesn't mean Over Powered. - it very well could be BiS (and therefore ran by the majority) but that still doesn't make it OP.

I see this set as on par with veli, viper, malubeth, widow maker, sword swiner, knight errant, bones, tbs, hundlings, NMG, eternal hunt

Berenhir

The sustain you all admire is not coming primarily from Black Rose. It's the utilisation of heavy attacks with heavy armor bonus, which is often combined with the redguard passive.
The point is Black Rose is a well designed set that fits smoothly into an offensive heavy armor meta. That's why you think BR was OP, because heavy armor stamtoins are in a very good place at the moment.

Whenever I recognise someone wearing BR, I'm just glad he didn't go for fasallas.

These threads will die out next patch anyway, knight errant / nerf snb incoming then.

Biro123

Just to chime in. I'm on the 'not op' camp. The bonus it gives over standard heavy passives is really small. I'm running it at the mo with 1200 stam regen and have resource issues. Its not this fantastic resource battery that people keep saying it is.

I believe so many ppl are using it in PVP because:
a) Threads like this saying its op
b) Easy to get for PVP-only players (no need to grind vet dungeons/trials)
c) Its 'nice' for doing dmg - mainly from the 2 stam bonuses.

I have it because its my first lvl50, saw some builds for my class which had it (which included no maelstrom stuff) and started working towards it by farming sewers as part of levelling up. As soon as I hit cp160 - I could buy full black-rose. Easy to get..

But I'm honestly thinking of switching it for something like reactive - a stronger 5-piece bonus imho - but you still get all the heavy armour passives - which really is what most ppl are complaining about when they mention blackrose.

Sharee

Ernest145 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Like do you realize it gives nice bonuses for damage, boosts the constitution passive, and tankiness. That's not counting a lot of resources from heavy attacks especially if you put points into tenacity and the wrath passive gives more damage.

And what exactly does black rose have to do with heavy attacks or tenacity and wrath?

Its like you guys throw together a powerful build that is 5% black rose and 95% everything else, make a video of the build doing well, and then point fingers:"Look! Look how overpowered black rose is!"

Ernest145 wrote: »

In Kodi's video he is running blue food and the thief mundus, his build has 700 stam regen and he has amazing sustain and damage.

That's less black rose and more very low block cost combined with overpowered vigor, and low quality of his opponents.

It also showcases a special situation where constitution is strong (constantly taking lots of small attacks). I'd like to see how amazing his sustain would be if he was trying to kill someone who does not hit him back (for example because he is busy killing some squishie instead of beating on the tank)

I meant black rose combined with other heavy armor passives gives too much sustain and damage, you know something is unbalanced when you can run 700 regen and sustain easily and have great damage. Like I also said it gives more magicka sustain on top of that so even more stam for stamina builds that can use igneous or dark deal. Heavy armor passives got buffed and if you use black rose it just pushes it over the top.

The stamina builds that sustain easily with 700 regen are redguards with adrenaline rush. Adrenaline rush gives twice more stamina regen on a 40K stamina toon than the black rose bonus does.

Yes, there are stamina builds with high sustain and high damage, but black rose is only a very small part of that.

If you think you can get away with 700 regen just by slapping on black rose, you will be sorely disappointed. My dunmer magicka DK in full heavy (not black rose) has 1200-1400 mag regen, and i still regularly run out of resources (and if i am not getting hit every 4 seconds - forget it).
Black rose gives 260 regen. 700+260=960, significantly less than my 1200-1400.

Ernest145 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean about low block cost, he is on a 2h and bow stam sorc??

Sorry i thought you meant the other video (1h/shield + 2H stamina DK), my bad.

Xinthisis

I'm actually laughing at the people still trying to defend blackrose. Its the only set that gives as much damage, sustain, and tankiness that comes in impen. Its a min maxers dream set. That's why all the best pvp players run it or acknowledge its overperformance. Like I said, leave it be. It will still be the meta and people will still burst while tanking, and sustaining.

Waffennacht

Xinthisis wrote: »

I'm actually laughing at the people still trying to defend blackrose. Its the only set that gives as much damage, sustain, and tankiness that comes in impen. Its a min maxers dream set. That's why all the best pvp players run it or acknowledge its overperformance. Like I said, leave it be. It will still be the meta and people will still burst while tanking, and sustaining.

What about Bone Pirate's Tatters? 4000 stamina, 430 stam regen?

Spriggan's Thorns Set? Etc?

I think many sets are comparable

Calboy

ITT. Lots of people who haven't used black rose and lots salty nightblades.

EOT.

AfkNinja

Waffennacht wrote: »

Xinthisis wrote: »

I'm actually laughing at the people still trying to defend blackrose. Its the only set that gives as much damage, sustain, and tankiness that comes in impen. Its a min maxers dream set. That's why all the best pvp players run it or acknowledge its overperformance. Like I said, leave it be. It will still be the meta and people will still burst while tanking, and sustaining.

What about Bone Pirate's Tatters? 4000 stamina, 430 stam regen?

Spriggan's Thorns Set? Etc?

I think many sets are comparable

I am so excited for this set and the drink coming out later this year. Black Rose what?

Xinthisis

AfkNinja wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Xinthisis wrote: »

I'm actually laughing at the people still trying to defend blackrose. Its the only set that gives as much damage, sustain, and tankiness that comes in impen. Its a min maxers dream set. That's why all the best pvp players run it or acknowledge its overperformance. Like I said, leave it be. It will still be the meta and people will still burst while tanking, and sustaining.

What about Bone Pirate's Tatters? 4000 stamina, 430 stam regen?

Spriggan's Thorns Set? Etc?

I think many sets are comparable

I am so excited for this set and the drink coming out later this year. Black Rose what?

Lol, you do realize the meta will be black rose, with these new sets as jewelry and weapons. Also, 5 Blackrose, 5 reactive will be a thing (with 2 monster helm). People wont drop blackrose, why would they? Its still going to be the best combination for the cheapest price of damage, sustain, and tankiness.

Xinthisis

How about that 5 Blackrose, 5 Viper, 2 death from below setup going around right now. lmfao @allthefoolswhothoughtiwaswrong