Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Adding one feature like inspect does not make this automatically just every other MMO, far from it, it's just one feature that wouldn't change things all that much since people already expect other players to use certain skills in end-game content and can see for themselves when that player is using different skills, this just simplifies matters and lets people know that information going into a group instead of waiting to see the group wipe horribly to know what people aren't doing that they should be.

And frankly it's ridiculous to question why I'm playing this over other MMOs, I'm an ES fan for one and absolutely loved Morrowind, and besides that it was and is the Alliance War that made me really want this game and keeps me playing it, you can't get anything like this PvP in any other game in existence.

I honestly fail to see how inspecting other players would change anything besides saving people the trouble of wiping to know that a group doesn't have what it takes, people are already making it mandatory for their teammates to have certain stats and skills and provide Screenshots sometimes as proof, inspecting just saves everyone a lot of time and effort. And there's nothing stopping less picky players from taking newer players under their wing, or for newer/less skilled/informed players playing together and seeing for themselves that they need better stats and skills and gear to be competent.

Believe me I'd love nothing more than for every underperforming skill to be buffed so that far more builds would be viable, but until such time as that happens there just isn't enough wiggle room for people to use whatever they want and be successful.

@Lucius_Aelius

The sentence and the paragraph is exactly the issue.
If you don't see this as a major problem then I gather why you don't see it as a problem.

Other than new vet content, if groups needs to see all this there are other major issues going on.
Remeber most content isn't new and pre CP so at cp 160 which most are, you don't need any of what you want.

Again it's not needed unless you want to do what you outline which is not a good thing and not good behaviors as these types of evaluations mak sense for guilds but then you really don't need it.

I exclusively run Dungeons through the group finder, and I can tell you for a fact that something needs to be done to better communicate to players what works and what doesn't since most groups have at least one person who doesn't have a clue what they're doing and often doesn't like being told they're doing it wrong. Far better for players to be able to inspect others by themselves to see what they're doing that's working so well and copy it, and also for better players to inspect others and be better able to tell them specifically what they're doing wrong if they're willing to hear it.

Honestly, like I said, nothing would really change except that people would be better informed all around and it would be easier for less skilled players to get better, and I fail to see how you can call that a bad thing.

@Lucius_Aelius
Have you considered finding a group of like minded people and joining their guild.
Manually forming your guild group and que?

There are many people, more than less, who really dislike what you're trying to force to the entire game.
As you describe, there are already ways to find out the info you want built in....so why does ZOS need to do anything?

Doesn't it make a whole heck of a lot more sense for you and those who want pre-set groups to play together and allow those who are open to random activities have random activity experiences?

It's literally not suppose to place you in a group with an ideal situation based on your expectations and three seperate others who more than likely have three different expectations as well.

People will not be better informed because this was the same argument that was made to why CP should be added.
Have you played other MMOs or online games where there is an inspect, or he's levels or some opportunity to inspect?

It solves nothing other than causing people to act elite and join, kick, disband, and troll other players.

There's never been a positive outcome because you're dealing with millions of different types of people from all over.

Did you see my post above that said I'm one of the players who wants to help newer players? I don't necessarily want to separate myself from those less skilled than me, it depends on the situation, but with random Dungeons where you can usually carry a bad group I like the idea of being able to help out and educate players about what they're doing wrong to help them get better. If I were running a Trial then sure a basic level of competence is required for me to want to play, and I wouldn't want to keep carrying the same bad players through multiple dungeons, but as a one-off I like helping out newer players and giving them help to improve as much as I can.

Inspecting other players takes nothing away from this game, the people who want to be picky are already being picky with all the information they can use, so this change would only result in people who want to help newer players being better able to do so, and newer players also being able to see for themselves the builds of players who kick ass.

Now tell me specifically how that would be a bad thing? No dancing around my arguments, how specifically would it hurt the game to have this feature? Picky people aren't going to get any more picky, it just won't happen, they already insist on certain stats and builds to play with them and all that would change for them is that you wouldn't need to provide a Screenshot for them to see what you've got to offer.

So for all the non-picky people who already carry people through dungeons now and would continue to do so, how is this hurting? For the newer or less skilled/knowledgeable players, how does them having better access to top-notch builds hurt their gameplay? How could it possibly not help? And please, do be specific.

Yes I see what you wrote but I've also read what else you've written.
You either are willing to play with random ppl and help and get along or you're not. Prejudice that you're using and more than you want isn't helping others it's jut to help you. It's selfish actually

That's why it's a bad thing and having ZOS promote this is worse.
I'm not dancing around anything, it's that your point of view is so self focused that you're unable to see how negative it impacts that which you believe you're helping. You're just helping yourself and in no way helping others. Actually you're asking to remove other players opportunities to play with people based your idea of who should and who shouldn't play together using prejudices which are unfounded.

People who want to be picky can be picky but that doesn't mean the who basis of the game needs to be redesigned cause of this type of mindset.
Adding to this....if you truly believe you're so great that you're always carrying ppl if then the obvious question is why do you not change your habits and behaviors?

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Adding one feature like inspect does not make this automatically just every other MMO, far from it, it's just one feature that wouldn't change things all that much since people already expect other players to use certain skills in end-game content and can see for themselves when that player is using different skills, this just simplifies matters and lets people know that information going into a group instead of waiting to see the group wipe horribly to know what people aren't doing that they should be.

And frankly it's ridiculous to question why I'm playing this over other MMOs, I'm an ES fan for one and absolutely loved Morrowind, and besides that it was and is the Alliance War that made me really want this game and keeps me playing it, you can't get anything like this PvP in any other game in existence.

I honestly fail to see how inspecting other players would change anything besides saving people the trouble of wiping to know that a group doesn't have what it takes, people are already making it mandatory for their teammates to have certain stats and skills and provide Screenshots sometimes as proof, inspecting just saves everyone a lot of time and effort. And there's nothing stopping less picky players from taking newer players under their wing, or for newer/less skilled/informed players playing together and seeing for themselves that they need better stats and skills and gear to be competent.

Believe me I'd love nothing more than for every underperforming skill to be buffed so that far more builds would be viable, but until such time as that happens there just isn't enough wiggle room for people to use whatever they want and be successful.

@Lucius_Aelius

The sentence and the paragraph is exactly the issue.
If you don't see this as a major problem then I gather why you don't see it as a problem.

Other than new vet content, if groups needs to see all this there are other major issues going on.
Remeber most content isn't new and pre CP so at cp 160 which most are, you don't need any of what you want.

Again it's not needed unless you want to do what you outline which is not a good thing and not good behaviors as these types of evaluations mak sense for guilds but then you really don't need it.

I exclusively run Dungeons through the group finder, and I can tell you for a fact that something needs to be done to better communicate to players what works and what doesn't since most groups have at least one person who doesn't have a clue what they're doing and often doesn't like being told they're doing it wrong. Far better for players to be able to inspect others by themselves to see what they're doing that's working so well and copy it, and also for better players to inspect others and be better able to tell them specifically what they're doing wrong if they're willing to hear it.

Honestly, like I said, nothing would really change except that people would be better informed all around and it would be easier for less skilled players to get better, and I fail to see how you can call that a bad thing.

@Lucius_Aelius
Have you considered finding a group of like minded people and joining their guild.
Manually forming your guild group and que?

There are many people, more than less, who really dislike what you're trying to force to the entire game.
As you describe, there are already ways to find out the info you want built in....so why does ZOS need to do anything?

Doesn't it make a whole heck of a lot more sense for you and those who want pre-set groups to play together and allow those who are open to random activities have random activity experiences?

It's literally not suppose to place you in a group with an ideal situation based on your expectations and three seperate others who more than likely have three different expectations as well.

People will not be better informed because this was the same argument that was made to why CP should be added.
Have you played other MMOs or online games where there is an inspect, or he's levels or some opportunity to inspect?

It solves nothing other than causing people to act elite and join, kick, disband, and troll other players.

There's never been a positive outcome because you're dealing with millions of different types of people from all over.

Did you see my post above that said I'm one of the players who wants to help newer players? I don't necessarily want to separate myself from those less skilled than me, it depends on the situation, but with random Dungeons where you can usually carry a bad group I like the idea of being able to help out and educate players about what they're doing wrong to help them get better. If I were running a Trial then sure a basic level of competence is required for me to want to play, and I wouldn't want to keep carrying the same bad players through multiple dungeons, but as a one-off I like helping out newer players and giving them help to improve as much as I can.

Inspecting other players takes nothing away from this game, the people who want to be picky are already being picky with all the information they can use, so this change would only result in people who want to help newer players being better able to do so, and newer players also being able to see for themselves the builds of players who kick ass.

Now tell me specifically how that would be a bad thing? No dancing around my arguments, how specifically would it hurt the game to have this feature? Picky people aren't going to get any more picky, it just won't happen, they already insist on certain stats and builds to play with them and all that would change for them is that you wouldn't need to provide a Screenshot for them to see what you've got to offer.

So for all the non-picky people who already carry people through dungeons now and would continue to do so, how is this hurting? For the newer or less skilled/knowledgeable players, how does them having better access to top-notch builds hurt their gameplay? How could it possibly not help? And please, do be specific.

Yes I see what you wrote but I've also read what else you've written.
You either are willing to play with random ppl and help and get along or you're not. Prejudice that you're using and more than you want isn't helping others it's jut to help you. It's selfish actually

That's why it's a bad thing and having ZOS promote this is worse.
I'm not dancing around anything, it's that your point of view is so self focused that you're unable to see how negative it impacts that which you believe you're helping. You're just helping yourself and in no way helping others. Actually you're asking to remove other players opportunities to play with people based your idea of who should and who shouldn't play together using prejudices which are unfounded.

People who want to be picky can be picky but that doesn't mean the who basis of the game needs to be redesigned cause of this type of mindset.
Adding to this....if you truly believe you're so great that you're always carrying ppl if then the obvious question is why do you not change your habits and behaviors?

Um, excuse me? I have absolutely no need to inspect other people, I play random Dungeons and almost always finish no matter how bad the group and will continue doing so. I want to inspect other players to help them (and in PvP to see what people who killed me were using), and you've failed to argue any point to prove that the ability to inspect wouldn't help newer/less skilled/informed players. Other people being able to inspect better players to learn from them is definitely in and of itself a good thing even if it has secondary consequences that aren't as good a thing, but you've failed to make clear what those secondary consequences would be or how this change would result in them happening.

This is not remotely as game-changing a feature as you seem to be making it out to be, it would be a nice feature but it would not radically alter the game. It would help people be more informed, but information being more available doesn't change the game on anything close to a fundamental level.

And what's this about me calling myself so great? I never said anything of the sort. Competent sure, but not super duper amazing or anything close to it. And the fact is that I'm a Tank with off-DPS and off-heals on all my characters with builds that are designed to be self-sustaining, as such I just so happen to have a build and be filling a roll (always Tank in groups) that lends itself to carrying bad groups. Apart from when there's a DPS check, as long as I stay alive and keep getting people up then the fight goes on, and there's no one better equipped to do that than a competent Tank with a solid build, the roll just lends itself towards keeping a lackluster group going where it would otherwise fail.

Also, what's this about me changing my habit and behaviors? I don't even understand what you mean, you say that I'm saying I'm so good that I should change what I'm doing? That is oxymoronic, surely if I were saying I was great then I'd have nothing I need to change? I honestly don't know what you're trying to say with that part, but ultimately you've yet to make anything close to a compelling argument to counter those I've made, and I'm all for being convinced I'm wrong if you have something logical to argue against me but so far you're coming up short.

So I went back to make sure I didn't miss quote or assume you were someone else.

Have you read your prior comments pages back?

I've responded directly to most all of your questions and now you're writing as if you're not the person who desires the things I've pointed out aren't necessary and that won't help.

Which is it?
I'm really not in the mood to argue but you've demanded that I respond to specific comments you've made.

Before you reply also look at others comments in this thread as well.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Adding one feature like inspect does not make this automatically just every other MMO, far from it, it's just one feature that wouldn't change things all that much since people already expect other players to use certain skills in end-game content and can see for themselves when that player is using different skills, this just simplifies matters and lets people know that information going into a group instead of waiting to see the group wipe horribly to know what people aren't doing that they should be.

And frankly it's ridiculous to question why I'm playing this over other MMOs, I'm an ES fan for one and absolutely loved Morrowind, and besides that it was and is the Alliance War that made me really want this game and keeps me playing it, you can't get anything like this PvP in any other game in existence.

I honestly fail to see how inspecting other players would change anything besides saving people the trouble of wiping to know that a group doesn't have what it takes, people are already making it mandatory for their teammates to have certain stats and skills and provide Screenshots sometimes as proof, inspecting just saves everyone a lot of time and effort. And there's nothing stopping less picky players from taking newer players under their wing, or for newer/less skilled/informed players playing together and seeing for themselves that they need better stats and skills and gear to be competent.

Believe me I'd love nothing more than for every underperforming skill to be buffed so that far more builds would be viable, but until such time as that happens there just isn't enough wiggle room for people to use whatever they want and be successful.

@Lucius_Aelius

The sentence and the paragraph is exactly the issue.
If you don't see this as a major problem then I gather why you don't see it as a problem.

Other than new vet content, if groups needs to see all this there are other major issues going on.
Remeber most content isn't new and pre CP so at cp 160 which most are, you don't need any of what you want.

Again it's not needed unless you want to do what you outline which is not a good thing and not good behaviors as these types of evaluations mak sense for guilds but then you really don't need it.

I exclusively run Dungeons through the group finder, and I can tell you for a fact that something needs to be done to better communicate to players what works and what doesn't since most groups have at least one person who doesn't have a clue what they're doing and often doesn't like being told they're doing it wrong. Far better for players to be able to inspect others by themselves to see what they're doing that's working so well and copy it, and also for better players to inspect others and be better able to tell them specifically what they're doing wrong if they're willing to hear it.

Honestly, like I said, nothing would really change except that people would be better informed all around and it would be easier for less skilled players to get better, and I fail to see how you can call that a bad thing.

@Lucius_Aelius
Have you considered finding a group of like minded people and joining their guild.
Manually forming your guild group and que?

There are many people, more than less, who really dislike what you're trying to force to the entire game.
As you describe, there are already ways to find out the info you want built in....so why does ZOS need to do anything?

Doesn't it make a whole heck of a lot more sense for you and those who want pre-set groups to play together and allow those who are open to random activities have random activity experiences?

It's literally not suppose to place you in a group with an ideal situation based on your expectations and three seperate others who more than likely have three different expectations as well.

People will not be better informed because this was the same argument that was made to why CP should be added.
Have you played other MMOs or online games where there is an inspect, or he's levels or some opportunity to inspect?

It solves nothing other than causing people to act elite and join, kick, disband, and troll other players.

There's never been a positive outcome because you're dealing with millions of different types of people from all over.

Did you see my post above that said I'm one of the players who wants to help newer players? I don't necessarily want to separate myself from those less skilled than me, it depends on the situation, but with random Dungeons where you can usually carry a bad group I like the idea of being able to help out and educate players about what they're doing wrong to help them get better. If I were running a Trial then sure a basic level of competence is required for me to want to play, and I wouldn't want to keep carrying the same bad players through multiple dungeons, but as a one-off I like helping out newer players and giving them help to improve as much as I can.

Inspecting other players takes nothing away from this game, the people who want to be picky are already being picky with all the information they can use, so this change would only result in people who want to help newer players being better able to do so, and newer players also being able to see for themselves the builds of players who kick ass.

Now tell me specifically how that would be a bad thing? No dancing around my arguments, how specifically would it hurt the game to have this feature? Picky people aren't going to get any more picky, it just won't happen, they already insist on certain stats and builds to play with them and all that would change for them is that you wouldn't need to provide a Screenshot for them to see what you've got to offer.

So for all the non-picky people who already carry people through dungeons now and would continue to do so, how is this hurting? For the newer or less skilled/knowledgeable players, how does them having better access to top-notch builds hurt their gameplay? How could it possibly not help? And please, do be specific.

Yes I see what you wrote but I've also read what else you've written.
You either are willing to play with random ppl and help and get along or you're not. Prejudice that you're using and more than you want isn't helping others it's jut to help you. It's selfish actually

That's why it's a bad thing and having ZOS promote this is worse.
I'm not dancing around anything, it's that your point of view is so self focused that you're unable to see how negative it impacts that which you believe you're helping. You're just helping yourself and in no way helping others. Actually you're asking to remove other players opportunities to play with people based your idea of who should and who shouldn't play together using prejudices which are unfounded.

People who want to be picky can be picky but that doesn't mean the who basis of the game needs to be redesigned cause of this type of mindset.
Adding to this....if you truly believe you're so great that you're always carrying ppl if then the obvious question is why do you not change your habits and behaviors?

Um, excuse me? I have absolutely no need to inspect other people, I play random Dungeons and almost always finish no matter how bad the group and will continue doing so. I want to inspect other players to help them (and in PvP to see what people who killed me were using), and you've failed to argue any point to prove that the ability to inspect wouldn't help newer/less skilled/informed players. Other people being able to inspect better players to learn from them is definitely in and of itself a good thing even if it has secondary consequences that aren't as good a thing, but you've failed to make clear what those secondary consequences would be or how this change would result in them happening.

This is not remotely as game-changing a feature as you seem to be making it out to be, it would be a nice feature but it would not radically alter the game. It would help people be more informed, but information being more available doesn't change the game on anything close to a fundamental level.

And what's this about me calling myself so great? I never said anything of the sort. Competent sure, but not super duper amazing or anything close to it. And the fact is that I'm a Tank with off-DPS and off-heals on all my characters with builds that are designed to be self-sustaining, as such I just so happen to have a build and be filling a roll (always Tank in groups) that lends itself to carrying bad groups. Apart from when there's a DPS check, as long as I stay alive and keep getting people up then the fight goes on, and there's no one better equipped to do that than a competent Tank with a solid build, the roll just lends itself towards keeping a lackluster group going where it would otherwise fail.

Also, what's this about me changing my habit and behaviors? I don't even understand what you mean, you say that I'm saying I'm so good that I should change what I'm doing? That is oxymoronic, surely if I were saying I was great then I'd have nothing I need to change? I honestly don't know what you're trying to say with that part, but ultimately you've yet to make anything close to a compelling argument to counter those I've made, and I'm all for being convinced I'm wrong if you have something logical to argue against me but so far you're coming up short.

So I went back to make sure I didn't miss quote or assume you were someone else.

Have you read your prior comments pages back?

I've responded directly to most all of your questions and now you're writing as if you're not the person who desires the things I've pointed out aren't necessary and that won't help.

Which is it?

You've said they're not necessary and wouldn't help, doesn't make it true. You need these pesky things called arguments that make use of logic in order to support your position, and so far you've failed to make any. And how did I suggest I'm not the one who wants this? Of course I want it, I'm arguing for it and gave you two specific examples of times I would like to make use of this feature myself, but it's not me that would be benefiting from it the most. Sure it'd be nice to have the randoms I get matched with be more competent prior to being matched with them, but I'm okay with being one of the people who helps newer players out when they don't know what they're doing.

The fact is that more information is by definition a useful thing to have when you're engaged in an activity requiring said information, and as such newer players being able to readily inspect more experienced and better players is unquestionably a useful and good thing. If you have any negative side effects that you think would result then argue a point for specifically why you think they would happen, but until then you've got nothing.

@Lucius_Aelius

I'm suggesting that anyone who is seeking to have a successful group does not and should not attempt to use CP, inspecting or any other idea you and I have touched on to pre-determine how successful a group will be.

Those things are not necessary because the reasons group fails ain't ever related to CP, gear or lack of inspecting as groups are automatically scaled in random activities. There are little changes that gear and CP will make but those changes aren't by any stretch a pass or fail in randoms.

Very simply put, the major issues are that people want others to do things this way, that way or more than not...."their way" and when it's not "their way" or how a video suggests, then it's assumed it's wrong and going to end in failure. That's the problem and giving more info does nothing but further perpetuate that issue cause everyone things they know what's best for others and how others should do it so "I" can win or get past this or that.

The very basic things required to be successful already are in the game so while there are people problems it's not an insect, CP problem.

I can't fail in my argument if my intent wasn't to prove that you're wrong. My intent was to point out the flaws in your point of view and while it's been accomplished, you're ability or willingness to look at those comments is up to you....give or take.
You're correct about this tho, just because I said it won't help, doesn't mean it won't help, however considering many other games have some or all of these features and have peoven year after year since I've began playing online games that these types of features do not help, that's been my info to share with you. There's a reason why very popular games are loosing their player base and why this keeps getting more buyers. People don't want to join a game where they are immediately biased or gated from other people.

Also it is not a fact that more information is useful. I'm not sure where you're pulling that because it's been proven that's it's not a fact ever year humans have existed. More information actually leads to terrible results without proper training, limits and use. More information in massive groups of people has further peoven to be negative which is why you have references such as conspiracy theories, information hated by very high security levels and authority even information that's intentionally destroyed before anyone else can obtain it or see it.

Again....I'm not here to argue against you to try and change your mind or to win any debate. My whole intent is to inform you that the point of view that you hold wants to do one thing but the means by which you seek to accomplish it, does not help anyon other than yourself. Results and prior years from games to experiments, religion, corporations, countries and even special interest groups continue throughout history to prove that more information is not a good thing given out to the masses.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Adding one feature like inspect does not make this automatically just every other MMO, far from it, it's just one feature that wouldn't change things all that much since people already expect other players to use certain skills in end-game content and can see for themselves when that player is using different skills, this just simplifies matters and lets people know that information going into a group instead of waiting to see the group wipe horribly to know what people aren't doing that they should be.

And frankly it's ridiculous to question why I'm playing this over other MMOs, I'm an ES fan for one and absolutely loved Morrowind, and besides that it was and is the Alliance War that made me really want this game and keeps me playing it, you can't get anything like this PvP in any other game in existence.

I honestly fail to see how inspecting other players would change anything besides saving people the trouble of wiping to know that a group doesn't have what it takes, people are already making it mandatory for their teammates to have certain stats and skills and provide Screenshots sometimes as proof, inspecting just saves everyone a lot of time and effort. And there's nothing stopping less picky players from taking newer players under their wing, or for newer/less skilled/informed players playing together and seeing for themselves that they need better stats and skills and gear to be competent.

Believe me I'd love nothing more than for every underperforming skill to be buffed so that far more builds would be viable, but until such time as that happens there just isn't enough wiggle room for people to use whatever they want and be successful.

@Lucius_Aelius

The sentence and the paragraph is exactly the issue.
If you don't see this as a major problem then I gather why you don't see it as a problem.

Other than new vet content, if groups needs to see all this there are other major issues going on.
Remeber most content isn't new and pre CP so at cp 160 which most are, you don't need any of what you want.

Again it's not needed unless you want to do what you outline which is not a good thing and not good behaviors as these types of evaluations mak sense for guilds but then you really don't need it.

I exclusively run Dungeons through the group finder, and I can tell you for a fact that something needs to be done to better communicate to players what works and what doesn't since most groups have at least one person who doesn't have a clue what they're doing and often doesn't like being told they're doing it wrong. Far better for players to be able to inspect others by themselves to see what they're doing that's working so well and copy it, and also for better players to inspect others and be better able to tell them specifically what they're doing wrong if they're willing to hear it.

Honestly, like I said, nothing would really change except that people would be better informed all around and it would be easier for less skilled players to get better, and I fail to see how you can call that a bad thing.

@Lucius_Aelius
Have you considered finding a group of like minded people and joining their guild.
Manually forming your guild group and que?

There are many people, more than less, who really dislike what you're trying to force to the entire game.
As you describe, there are already ways to find out the info you want built in....so why does ZOS need to do anything?

Doesn't it make a whole heck of a lot more sense for you and those who want pre-set groups to play together and allow those who are open to random activities have random activity experiences?

It's literally not suppose to place you in a group with an ideal situation based on your expectations and three seperate others who more than likely have three different expectations as well.

People will not be better informed because this was the same argument that was made to why CP should be added.
Have you played other MMOs or online games where there is an inspect, or he's levels or some opportunity to inspect?

It solves nothing other than causing people to act elite and join, kick, disband, and troll other players.

There's never been a positive outcome because you're dealing with millions of different types of people from all over.

Did you see my post above that said I'm one of the players who wants to help newer players? I don't necessarily want to separate myself from those less skilled than me, it depends on the situation, but with random Dungeons where you can usually carry a bad group I like the idea of being able to help out and educate players about what they're doing wrong to help them get better. If I were running a Trial then sure a basic level of competence is required for me to want to play, and I wouldn't want to keep carrying the same bad players through multiple dungeons, but as a one-off I like helping out newer players and giving them help to improve as much as I can.

Inspecting other players takes nothing away from this game, the people who want to be picky are already being picky with all the information they can use, so this change would only result in people who want to help newer players being better able to do so, and newer players also being able to see for themselves the builds of players who kick ass.

Now tell me specifically how that would be a bad thing? No dancing around my arguments, how specifically would it hurt the game to have this feature? Picky people aren't going to get any more picky, it just won't happen, they already insist on certain stats and builds to play with them and all that would change for them is that you wouldn't need to provide a Screenshot for them to see what you've got to offer.

So for all the non-picky people who already carry people through dungeons now and would continue to do so, how is this hurting? For the newer or less skilled/knowledgeable players, how does them having better access to top-notch builds hurt their gameplay? How could it possibly not help? And please, do be specific.

Yes I see what you wrote but I've also read what else you've written.
You either are willing to play with random ppl and help and get along or you're not. Prejudice that you're using and more than you want isn't helping others it's jut to help you. It's selfish actually

That's why it's a bad thing and having ZOS promote this is worse.
I'm not dancing around anything, it's that your point of view is so self focused that you're unable to see how negative it impacts that which you believe you're helping. You're just helping yourself and in no way helping others. Actually you're asking to remove other players opportunities to play with people based your idea of who should and who shouldn't play together using prejudices which are unfounded.

People who want to be picky can be picky but that doesn't mean the who basis of the game needs to be redesigned cause of this type of mindset.
Adding to this....if you truly believe you're so great that you're always carrying ppl if then the obvious question is why do you not change your habits and behaviors?

Um, excuse me? I have absolutely no need to inspect other people, I play random Dungeons and almost always finish no matter how bad the group and will continue doing so. I want to inspect other players to help them (and in PvP to see what people who killed me were using), and you've failed to argue any point to prove that the ability to inspect wouldn't help newer/less skilled/informed players. Other people being able to inspect better players to learn from them is definitely in and of itself a good thing even if it has secondary consequences that aren't as good a thing, but you've failed to make clear what those secondary consequences would be or how this change would result in them happening.

This is not remotely as game-changing a feature as you seem to be making it out to be, it would be a nice feature but it would not radically alter the game. It would help people be more informed, but information being more available doesn't change the game on anything close to a fundamental level.

And what's this about me calling myself so great? I never said anything of the sort. Competent sure, but not super duper amazing or anything close to it. And the fact is that I'm a Tank with off-DPS and off-heals on all my characters with builds that are designed to be self-sustaining, as such I just so happen to have a build and be filling a roll (always Tank in groups) that lends itself to carrying bad groups. Apart from when there's a DPS check, as long as I stay alive and keep getting people up then the fight goes on, and there's no one better equipped to do that than a competent Tank with a solid build, the roll just lends itself towards keeping a lackluster group going where it would otherwise fail.

Also, what's this about me changing my habit and behaviors? I don't even understand what you mean, you say that I'm saying I'm so good that I should change what I'm doing? That is oxymoronic, surely if I were saying I was great then I'd have nothing I need to change? I honestly don't know what you're trying to say with that part, but ultimately you've yet to make anything close to a compelling argument to counter those I've made, and I'm all for being convinced I'm wrong if you have something logical to argue against me but so far you're coming up short.

So I went back to make sure I didn't miss quote or assume you were someone else.

Have you read your prior comments pages back?

I've responded directly to most all of your questions and now you're writing as if you're not the person who desires the things I've pointed out aren't necessary and that won't help.

Which is it?

You've said they're not necessary and wouldn't help, doesn't make it true. You need these pesky things called arguments that make use of logic in order to support your position, and so far you've failed to make any. And how did I suggest I'm not the one who wants this? Of course I want it, I'm arguing for it and gave you two specific examples of times I would like to make use of this feature myself, but it's not me that would be benefiting from it the most. Sure it'd be nice to have the randoms I get matched with be more competent prior to being matched with them, but I'm okay with being one of the people who helps newer players out when they don't know what they're doing.

The fact is that more information is by definition a useful thing to have when you're engaged in an activity requiring said information, and as such newer players being able to readily inspect more experienced and better players is unquestionably a useful and good thing. If you have any negative side effects that you think would result then argue a point for specifically why you think they would happen, but until then you've got nothing.

@Lucius_Aelius

I'm suggesting that anyone who is seeking to have a successful group does not and should not attempt to use CP, inspecting or any other idea you and I have touched on to pre-determine how successful a group will be.

Those things are not necessary because the reasons group fails ain't ever related to CP, gear or lack of inspecting as groups are automatically scaled in random activities. There are little changes that gear and CP will make but those changes aren't by any stretch a pass or fail in randoms.

Very simply put, the major issues are that people want others to do things this way, that way or more than not...."their way" and when it's not "their way" or how a video suggests, then it's assumed it's wrong and going to end in failure.

The very basic things required to be successful already are in the game so while there are people problems it's not an insect, CP problem.

I can't fail in my argument if my intent wasn't to prove that you're wrong. My intent was to point out the flaws in your point of view and while it's been accomplished, you're ability or willingness to look at those comments is up to you....give or take.
You're correct about this tho, just because I said it won't help, doesn't mean it won't help, however considering many other games have some or all of these features and have peoven year after year since I've began playing online games that these types of features do not help, that's been my info to share with you. There's a reason why very popular games are loosing their player base and why this keeps getting more buyers. People don't want to join a game where they are immediately biased or gated from other people.

Also it is not a fact that more information is useful. I'm not sure where you're pulling that because it's been proven that's it's not a fact ever year humans have existed. More information actually leads to terrible results without proper training, limits and use. More information in massive groups of people has further peoven to be negative which is why you have references such as conspiracy theories, information hated by very high security levels and authority even information that's intentionally destroyed before anyone else can obtain it or see it.

Again....I'm not here to argue against you to try and change your mind or to win any debate. My whole intent is to inform you that the point of view that you hold wants to do one thing but the means by which you seek to accomplish it, does not help anyon other than yourself. Results and prior years from games to experiments, religion, corporations, countries and even special interest groups continue throughout history to prove that more information is not a good thing given out to the masses.

Okay, this I can work with, and you make some valid points that I agree with even though I still think an inspect feature would be a net good.

First of all, more information. Yes you're right, that statement was far too broad to be accurate, I was just thinking about applicable information, like knowing how to type if you're going to have a job that requires it. In this case, knowing what other people are doing that works (and having easy access to that information) can help people who are struggling. I don't know what other games you've played that leads you to think otherwise, but in my experience playing Mass Effect 3 and Destiny (which are admittedly not the best examples considering how different they are from ESO) it was unquestionably helpful and useful and led to people being better informed about what worked and what didn't.

And you're absolutely right that understanding the mechanics of a fight is always going to be more important than gear (as long as the basic bare minimum of gear requirement is met, which in ESO is easy enough because of scaling as you rightly point out). That's why I said though that more statistics are the answer, not less. It's hardest for newer players who haven't done anything yet and don't have any completions of challenging content, but once you have completions you can point to that statistic, "White Gold Tower Completions: Normal 6, Veteran 3" or some such as being proof that you've got what it takes even if your build is unorthodox or stats are less than top notch.

I admit that's the weakest point of my argument though because of the barrier to entry, you need completions to point to in that example in order to get people to play with you, and if you have none it would be exceedingly difficult to get a competent group together to get it done. There are potentially ways to mitigate this, for example just looking for the nicer players out there who are willing to help you out, but that's not the best solution and I honestly don't know how best to sort that out, though I believe there must surely be some way to make it work if enough people put their heads together and brainstormed. Having other statistics that don't require completions but which also help to distinguish the better players from the worse players might do it, but I have no specific examples of what stats would do it, I'd have to think more on it.

The deal with statistics is that no one stat means hardly anything on it's own, but the more comprehensive they are the more information can be gleaned from them, hence my standard "more statistics are always the answer, not less" response to any attempt to say that any given statistic is meaningless, which any one statistic on it's own pretty much is meaningless, if not entirely meaningless, depending on the statistic and the context.

Ultimately though as it is there just aren't enough Builds that work properly for people to use whatever they want (and ZOS needs to buff anything lackluster to fix that ASAP, there shouldn't be go-to abilities for everything the way there is now, it should be more customizable), and so long as it is the way it is it's a problem for people to use Builds that don't work as a result of them not knowing what does work. If they were playing solo that would be one thing, but in a team game you have to use what works or you're gimping your team and spoiling the fun for everyone else, for example a DPS trying to use Pierce Armor as their sole DPS ability with no execute is just a terrible build that will be ineffectual and which no one should ever use in group content.

The solution to that frankly is that Sword and Board should have an execute I think, because some people want to DPS with that for the style factor and I think they should be able to, but as it is it just doesn't work and even worse it sabotages the team because of the inherent Taunt built into Puncture which interferes with the Tank's ability to do their job. Their are people out there doing that and other similar ineffectual things just because they don't know any better, and I think an inspect ability (if they choose to use it) would be a great way for those people to learn what works and get better.

The best solution to all of this I think would be for ZOS to have a full suite of mandatory tutorials that every single player must complete before being allowed into any group content (retroactively applied so that all players must do it no matter their experience before being allowed back into group content, and the Tutorials would be themselves a challenge that would require a basic level of competence to complete before allowing you to assign yourself any given role, with separate challenges required to be completed for every person looking to Tank, Heal or DPS), and also for ZOS to buff all underperforming skills and sets such that there is no wrong build. The only time it should matter what people are using is when you're doing a speed/leaderboard run, and even then the viable options should be much more numerous than they currently are.

In the end though even with all that I still think it would be a nice feature to be able to inspect other players, either in front of you or in your group or that kill you in PvP, even if only for the sake of curiosity I think it would be nice to know and useful for any discussion between players about their builds and their style of play and whatnot. It's only a problem if the game is imbalanced with some builds being dramatically better or worse than others, if things were more on par with each other there wouldn't be any issue, and that's the sort of vision I have in mind when I suggest inspecting being a thing. Not as a central feature and deal-breaker when assembling a group, but more as a curiosity and discussion starter.

And I can't lie, a part of me just wants to see what people who kill me in PvP are using so that I can compare it to what I'm doing and maybe alter my build accordingly, and that much I don't think you can take issue with based on what you said, for my sake that's all I really care about with any significance in regards to inspecting (as far as it would affect me personally). If it was limited to inspecting just players who have killed you as a part of the Death Recap, I'm honestly curious do you have an issue with that?

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. People keep saying that CP shouldn't be used to judge someone's suitability because CP 100 players can outperform CP 531 players, which is a true statement. But it's about the MAJORITY. The MAJORITY of low CP players do not have the stats/experience to hold their own in the harder end of PVE content. High CP players are aware of this because they've most likely witnessed it for themselves many times, therefore the mentality to just avoid these people is formed. You could be CP 100 and have the best skills in the world, but you will still be kicked by these types of people because they want the highest probability possible of completing the content and don't want to take a risk on teaming with someone who could drag it on forever. Players are not psychic and cannot judge every aspect of a low CP player's skill just by looking at them, therefore they choose to potentially save time and instead base their decision based on what they can see: the amount of CP they have.

I ran vWGT 8 times today using group finder and 6/8 times I was paired with a player who was below 200 CP. For 5 of these people it was the same situation I've seen over and over again. Their lack of dps and survivability make the 1st and 2nd boss a complete grind, but doable. Then comes Planar Inhibitor, the almighty slayer of low CP players. All 5 of these players could not deal with the portal mechanic, and it became wipe after wipe until everyone separated from the group or that person got kicked. The other under 200 CP player I played with had no major issues. They understood all the mechanics, but as expected lacked a lot of dps because they don't yet have the stat boosts that more and more CP bring. We finished the dungeon at a time that was longer than expected, but it went fine. If every low CP player was guaranteed to perform like that I'm sure the group finder would be filled with holding hands and hugs, but this is not the reality. Certain players do not want to tolerate such things over and over again, and I don't feel they should be criticised for having that attitude.

It really depends on the group, and the dungeon.

Vet COA with three CP160's? Nope, not going to happen.
Vet Wayrest with three CP160's? They will struggle, but you can carry them. (For the most part).

I personally prefer seeing the CP numbers. I try to adjust accordingly.

I don't see what the problem is with people only wanting to play with other high-CP players. Personally, when I want to do the daily pledges, I want to get them done ASAP. They aren't enjoyable after the 100th time running them, and I just want the keys. I don't need to spend more than 20-25 minutes in a 4-man dungeon because I didn't want to seem "elitist".

Lolimsopro wrote: »

AnnieBeGood wrote: »

With all my characters, once they have reached level 50 suddenly becoming cp160 and displaying a cp count of over cp600, I am lying if I apply to do a dungeon. My skills are not levelled, I do not have lore books done and skyshards, I may or may not have weapons levelled and I may or may not have been able to clad them in bis gear. I certainly have not levelled undaunted and I may or may not know jack *** about running dungeons.

My cp level will tell you nothing about all of that. God knows what it tells you, except I play this game a lot.

How does CP work when you hit lvl 50 with a toon?

My main has 120 CP.
Does toons instantly hit lvl 120 then?

IF my main had 500 CP, does my toon instantly hit 500 CP when i get to 50?

Thanks

To clarify: You don't actually need to reach 50 on any subsequent toons to have access to your CP levels. You'll be able to add your CP points at level 1. So you'd really be a level 1 CP500, but it doesn't ever show anything like that.

Egonieser wrote: »

So give people a chance - how do you know they're not a old experienced player who just started a new account?

B-but muh e-peen!