It's time to update Vigor

Sharee · August 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Hardened ward, healing ward, dampen magicka, all of wich is better for staying alive then vigor imo. You can spam magicka heals and wards to your hearts content, they will shield you and heal you over and over again. Try doing the same with vigor and any stamina heal...you cant, all of them are HoTs and does not stack with itself.

You are comparing standing still spamming vigor to standing still spamming shields, with one enemy attacking you. Then what you say is true.

In a real fight however, cast vigor, anim cancel it with a roll dodge (and get a 100% dodge chance for the duration), and you get much more health back than a magicka spamming shields (and continue to be under heavy DPS for the duration, since they can't afford dodge rolling).

And as the number of attackers increases, roll dodge defense doesn't care about how many attacks it evades, while the shield gets overwhelmed.

There are certain situations where one will outshine the other, thats just how it is.

Oh come on. How many stam builds do you see that do not use vigor in tandem with a dodge roll? That 'certain situation' happens pretty much all the time.

BohnT · August 2016

Come on vigor is fine as it is and Magicka heals are also fine. Stam players don't come up with "give us a stam purge and a stam deto and stam shields" No because we are fine as we are and I would trade my vigor anytime for a stam purge and stam shields as they give me much more utility.
The major evasion cry in this thread is stupid. Just use some stamina an use it a stam nightblade has to use it's small amount of magicka for cloak and other important buffs, a stam dk has to use his magicka for wings, major mending, etc

My point is that you can change things but most of you cry that they don't have stamina for anything in pvp. Then put some points into stamina, use cp to reduce dodge rolls and break free, or use some tri-stat glyphs on your armour.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Magicka = ranged = less damage and easier to avoid damage without dodge rolling, and they have shields. As a magicka user, you do less damage, you have less armor protection, and rely on resto staff for self-heal (especially sorcs). But you also take significantly less damage altogether.

Stamina = melee = more damage dealt, more damage taken, costs dodge rolling to avoid, no shields. This is compensated by stronger armor and vigor.

Looks balanced to me.

Barlthump · August 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.

ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.

I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.

TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.

@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.

You do know magicka builds have enough heals as it is right? And gutting a stam heal to make it scale off health will totally destroy stam sorcs and stam NB. I understand that you don't want to use a resto staff while being magicka but is this the way to go about doing it? Switching it to a heal over time which scales off health in cyrodil. Look at coag blood, it scales off max health and do you see how useless it is in cyro? Yeah once they change it to scale off max health you will go back to using resto but what do stam builds have?

I recommend making it tick for longer and healing lesser per tick. Or make it like mutagen, a small amount of health + purge cause damn I would love to have a stam purge.

Izaki · August 2016

WTB how only magicka builds can get silenced completely while that stamplar can dance around in your Negate?

Vythri · August 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

First, that's not true, I've done it on my Stamplar with Rally only.

So you want to force all stamina players into 2H? Thanks, but no thanks. I'd actually like there to be more build diversity, not less.

@Vythri Stop putting words in my mouth, I didn't say that. I think I made it clear that I love Vigor and want it to be useful to more builds (especially magicka players) and also having an upper limit on power across the board.

The power of the heal is fine. What makes it stronger are the buffs that you can put on yourself to increase that healing. Not everybody has access to those buffs.

bowmanz607 · August 2016

Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same. Plus you know mag user have a whOle resto line. Oh let's not forget that mag users have class abilities.

Mag blade have swallow soul which not only gives 8%healing received but an additional 4% for slotting it and 8% max mag while ticking for about the same as vigor while doing dps.

Mag dk have whip and the healing dot which name escapes me right now along with an AOE heal in groups.

Mag templars. Well do I have to explain what they have.

Mag sorc has dark deal and crit heals. Not to mention shields

Speaking of shields, all mag classes have them.

Stop acting like mag is gimp without it. There is plenty of healing to choose from in mag lines. Many of which are any where from approximately as strong as vigor or better than it.

Qbiken · August 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alrighty, my points would be:

1. Without Vigor, stam classes become extremely imbalanced in their own group. Sorcs especially have No Access to stam heals, in PvP draining shot is a joke for a heal and then you have two HOTs (combined equal what rally does single handedly) in DW and then Rally.

Meaning to have access to any heals a stam Sorc (prob NBs too) you would HAVE to run 2H (which it is already, but 2H as a healing utility for a build is an oxymoron) even then it's sub par alone.

2. Only DKs and Temps have access to major mending, already if vigor didn't exist you put pressure on players to drop at least one class choice. Now you almost force players to be a temp or DK in order to heal. Limiting access to vigor doesn't hurt a temp or DK nearly as much as a sorc and NB.

3. PvE content, sure in groups that know what they are doing self heals are not necessary and sometimes frowned upon. Removing the abilities that allow for PUGs to compete (try going with a specialized build with a PUG and you won't survive), most people are already complaining about elitism, without such moves as vigor more class discrimination will happen (stam sorc gtfo etc...)

4. Vigor itself is not an issue at all. A 1k tick isn't saving anyone from 8k jabs. But when you stack major mending vitality malubeth minor forms and CPs with offensive hots (lookin at you Templars) THEN you get redonkulous heals. But Only temps and even more defensively specialized DKs can do this (only temps can do this and still have such high offensive capabilities) - this is also because you have at least 2 froms of heal buffs and only one form of health debuff

Im all for adding moves, especially to the magicka line. There clearly is not balance (though I have a hard time believing "balance" is a goal) but I am not for nerfing or removal of abilities. Upgrade the mage's guild line. Wtf is equilibrium? I mean Come On!

.

@Waffennacht

1. I don't want stamina characters to lose Vigor. Never said that. However, it's stupid lame that it scales up so nicely with that 6k weapon damage for absolutely insane heals.

2. IMO Major Mending for Temp/DK is balanced pretty well against sorc/NB damage evasion/mitigation mechanics. Nothing would change there.

3. Again, I don't want it taken away from anyone. It should be ALSO accessible to magicka. It is too strong at current because of how high the HPS is on high damage builds.

4. A 1k tick is laughably low, even without Major Mending. Regardless, part of the strength of Vigor for stamina toons is pairing it with Major Evasion and constant roll dodge.

You did hit the nail on the head with your last comment though - it's pretty clear that balance has been blatantly tilted to stamina this patch for reasons unknown. I've seen FOTM issues in every MMO I've played, but Wrobel has gone bonkers with ESO. It's like he just wants it to be a sword swinging Twitch game with only one-shots and burst heals.

4. A 1k tick is laughably low, even without Major Mending. Regardless, part of the strength of Vigor for stamina toons is pairing it with Major Evasion and constant roll dodge.

^This, never is a skill on it´s own "broken" but always togehter with something else. But isn´t an mmo about combining skills/gear etc to make the optional/best performing stuff??

altemriel · August 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.

ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.

I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.

TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.

@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.

another nerf cry post right???!!

I hate these posts....not you of course...but these posts...

learn to play...

or

yes, ZOS give them magicka players a magicka equivalent...

but please leave the vigor like it is!!!!!

Sharee · August 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.

Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:

Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec

This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.

Solariken · August 2016

altemriel wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.

ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.

I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.

TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.

@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.

another nerf cry post right???!!

I hate these posts....not you of course...but these posts...

learn to play...

or

yes, ZOS give them magicka players a magicka equivalent...

but please leave the vigor like it is!!!!!

@altemriel It's not really a nerf stamina post, but a make Vigor a good healing option for both specs and also find a way to keep it in reasonable bounds for healing output.

Also, it's not a learn to play issue - I main a Stamplar dude. I can face tank any character you have for days just refreshing Vigor and Rune, especially in Black Rose.

coolermh · August 2016

Really what they need to do is up the dmg of light armor passives significantly. like increase spellpower by 3% per piece of light armor. I mean medium witch has more damage mitigation gets 12% weapon dmg

iRogue32 · August 2016

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.

Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:

Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec

This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.

Vigor only lasts 5 seconds, while rapid regen lasts 16. Magicka builds typically have other sources of healing besides a resto staff ability and not to mention damage shields. Stamina builds have access to only 1 great heal : vigor.

bowmanz607 · August 2016

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.

Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:

Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec

This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.

There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.

Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.

Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.

OdinForge · August 2016

CP is a source of imbalance in this game.

Vigor as a skill is fine.

lucky_Sage · August 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Stop stop stop.

Leave vigor alone and fix the mDK heal, and for crying out loud ZOS re-evaluate the resto skill line. You know what your magic pvpers want? We want a reliable skill that has an equal heal as vigor. Preferably not on a resto skill line. You know...so we can wield any weapon we choose like Stam does with vigor. J/s

@DUTCH_REAPER
yes don't nerf it give the crap unused morph to magicka
fix resto staff skills line and mages guild

lucky_Sage · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magicka = ranged = less damage and easier to avoid damage without dodge rolling, and they have shields. As a magicka user, you do less damage, you have less armor protection, and rely on resto staff for self-heal (especially sorcs). But you also take significantly less damage altogether.

Stamina = melee = more damage dealt, more damage taken, costs dodge rolling to avoid, no shields. This is compensated by stronger armor and vigor.

Looks balanced to me.

say that about a magdk and come back

Anti_Virus · August 2016

Solariken wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

It is the only reason stamina DPS can even do vMA. Also, nearly all Magicka heals are ate much better.

First, that's not true, I've done it on my Stamplar with Rally only.

Second, I'm not saying it should be gutted, I love the skill. I just want it available to everyone and more universally powerful.

Also, outside of magplar, magicka classes have to keep DPS uptime on a target to get any significant healing. Stamina has Vigor and Rally which are the strongest direct heals in the game. How does it make sense that someone who doesn't wield magic can burst themselves back to full health from near zero in just a few seconds while magic users are forced to carry a resto stick (which also needs updated, that skill line sucks).

That's the problem if vigor is nerfed some stam builds will be Forced to run with a 2h I and many other stam builds don't want to do that.

Apherius · August 2016

Oh , poor vigor ... they d'ont have a shield ...... AND IT's WHY THEY HAVE 10k + dps than magicka class !
Man , this is not because you are stamina than you can't use Magicka heal

Sorcerer stam per exemple , he can use the second morph of overkill who give Major brutality + 2500 heal per second !

and it's not because we have a shield than we use it . shields are a big *** in PVE groupe/raid .

Sharee · August 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.

Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:

Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec

This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.

There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.

Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.

Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.

Actually no, there are not that many variables.

Stage 1 vs stage 2 is a 1% difference at best. The difference between vigor HPS and regen HPS is over 50% in favor of vigor- again, on a magicka character where regen should be strong and vigor weak due to stats.

"vigor needs to be cast more often" - The value of a heal lies in it's healing output(HPS), not how often you need to cast it. That's like saying BoL that heals for 15K instantly is a weaker heal than regen that heals for 20K over 20 seconds, because "you need to cast it more often".

Healing received and healing taken affect both heals equally, so this is a non-factor when comparing them. And no, rapid regen can not get to similar healing numbers(heal per second) as vigor, not even close.

My stats do not favor vigor at all - they are those of a magicka DK. I have more spell damage than weapon damage, and much higher max magicka than max stamina - and vigor still outperforms rapid regen, despite of that handicap. If that doesn't tell you how much more powerful vigor is compared to regen i don't know what will.

bowmanz607 · August 2016

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.

Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:

Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec

This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.

There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.

Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.

Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.

Actually no, there are not that many variables.

Stage 1 vs stage 2 is a 1% difference at best. The difference between vigor HPS and regen HPS is over 50% in favor of vigor- again, on a magicka character where regen should be strong and vigor weak due to stats.

"vigor needs to be cast more often" - The value of a heal lies in it's healing output(HPS), not how often you need to cast it. That's like saying BoL that heals for 15K instantly is a weaker heal than regen that heals for 20K over 20 seconds, because "you need to cast it more often".

Healing received and healing taken affect both heals equally, so this is a non-factor when comparing them. And no, rapid regen can not get to similar healing numbers(heal per second) as vigor, not even close.

My stats do not favor vigor at all - they are those of a magicka DK. I have more spell damage than weapon damage, and much higher max magicka than max stamina - and vigor still outperforms rapid regen, despite of that handicap. If that doesn't tell you how much more powerful vigor is compared to regen i don't know what will.

but the numbers you are using are scewed or your mag build needs work. That rapid regen is weak. Perhaps it is your build or your way of making the numbers favor your argument.

I ran Mutagen (weaker than rapid regen per tick) with low spell damage at 2k and low max mag at 35k and was getiing 1.7k crit heals per tick. You can easily get to 3k spell damage and 40k max mag plus use rapid regen to get that tick to at least 2k. Not to mention the cost is about 500 cheaper and has a 16 sec duration.

I ran vigor with 3500 weapon damage and 28k max stam and was getting 2.1k crit heals per tick. Roughly average numbers for people running vigor.

So again I say, you can get SIMILAR numbers (roughly 2.1k on avg for vigor and roughly 1.9k on avg for rapid regen), but vigor requires more casting and resources than rapid regen does. That is the trade off.

Again, mag also has multiple sources where they can get heals from too. See my above post. Whereas stam has vigor and rally.

That all said, I am sure that resto and desto get reworked this next patch with weapon ults.

QuebraRegra · August 2016

Vythri wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

First, that's not true, I've done it on my Stamplar with Rally only.

So you want to force all stamina players into 2H? Thanks, but no thanks. I'd actually like there to be more build diversity, not less.

Don't play this game in it's current state looking for diverse builds... The 2h STAM meta has been king for too long.

Softcaps pls

bowmanz607 · August 2016

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

First, that's not true, I've done it on my Stamplar with Rally only.

So you want to force all stamina players into 2H? Thanks, but no thanks. I'd actually like there to be more build diversity, not less.

Don't play this game in it's current state looking for diverse builds... The 2h STAM meta has been king for too long.

Softcaps pls

The "meta" is just the most efficient way to get a kill these days. In the past it was many times the only viable setup. Now, it is just what is popular for efficiency sake. This does not mean other builds are not viable. Mag is still a very viable setup. Some of the issues with mag is not an imbalance between stam/mag it is a class issue such as mag sorc and mag dk. Besides that a lot of the imbalance is with the mag weapons. I suspect desto/resto gets some love this update. Mag nb and mag temp are still top notch.

Additionally, heavy armor is very viable with the changes especially in a game with lots of burst damage.

2h is the most efficient way to run around with, but there are still plenty of other viable and very good builds out there.

In fact, the game currently has more viable builds all around since 1.5.

The lack of players wanting to change their build and simply run around with the most efficient does not mean it is the only viable way to play.

DUTCH_REAPER · August 2016

So funny to see this game go full 180. Do you remember when stick and dress were the kings in PVP? Lol nobody used 2h It's a cycle I reckon. But it wasn't too long ago when Stam users had an overwhelming outcry on these forums for more damage, a Stam heal, making stamina weapons more viable in PVP etc etc.

Bottom line up front- leave vigor alone and make the other morph of it a magic user version. I mean it is in the Alliance War tree. We are talking about using it in PVP. So why shouldn't a magic version be available in the morph? If you say the resto blah blah blah please stop talking and sit this convo out. If you don't agree then you must be fearing my mDK because he will rock that skill like a boss and give all you Stam users the pain train.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2016

Bowman is right. Your rapid is very low. It's also half the cost. Longer duration is important and hps is not the only important thing. If y flipped the durations. A healer wouldn't have time to cast other heals, buff the group, and sustain. Duration is extremely important when it comes to heals.

Rapids isnt supposed to be a primary heal while vigor is.

With your logic you could say combat prayer is better than vigor: "Omg it's instant, aoe and buffs damage for everyone"

Every class has a magicka source of healing. Every single one. Those are options too.

Need i mention shields?

What does stamina have? Besides vigor? Rally is only good one time in a fight. It it ticks for less than 8 seconds it's bad. And then it's used and is bad again until 8 seconds when it heals for less than Ward's.

bowmanz607 · August 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

So funny to see this game go full 180. Do you remember when stick and dress were the kings in PVP? Lol nobody used 2h It's a cycle I reckon. But it wasn't too long ago when Stam users had an overwhelming outcry on these forums for more damage, a Stam heal, making stamina weapons more viable in PVP etc etc.

Bottom line up front- leave vigor alone and make the other morph of it a magic user version. I mean it is in the Alliance War tree. We are talking about using it in PVP. So why shouldn't a magic version be available in the morph? If you say the resto blah blah blah please stop talking and sit this convo out. If you don't agree then you must be fearing my mDK because he will rock that skill like a boss and give all you Stam users the pain train.

I am firmly against players who ask for stam/mag morphs of everything. This game should not just be all skills seperated into stam and mag morphs. That is what kills diversity. This is why i am against stam whips or stam cripples or mag vigor or stam frags etc. If we did this for every popular ability you would see much less diversity than we have ever seen before. Theory crafting would be dead.

If you dont want to use a resto to heal than dont. Just realize your health sustain needs to come from somewhere. For mag builds this is easier because you have class abilities which wont tie you to a staff. This is the same for stam builds. if we want good healing sustained they are tied to a 2h for rally. Stam can not really really on class skills for healing. Vigor is a way to get around using 2h as a crutch much like mag users have class skills.

Sharee · August 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.

Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:

Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec

This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.

There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.

Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.

Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.

Actually no, there are not that many variables.

Stage 1 vs stage 2 is a 1% difference at best. The difference between vigor HPS and regen HPS is over 50% in favor of vigor- again, on a magicka character where regen should be strong and vigor weak due to stats.

"vigor needs to be cast more often" - The value of a heal lies in it's healing output(HPS), not how often you need to cast it. That's like saying BoL that heals for 15K instantly is a weaker heal than regen that heals for 20K over 20 seconds, because "you need to cast it more often".

Healing received and healing taken affect both heals equally, so this is a non-factor when comparing them. And no, rapid regen can not get to similar healing numbers(heal per second) as vigor, not even close.

My stats do not favor vigor at all - they are those of a magicka DK. I have more spell damage than weapon damage, and much higher max magicka than max stamina - and vigor still outperforms rapid regen, despite of that handicap. If that doesn't tell you how much more powerful vigor is compared to regen i don't know what will.

but the numbers you are using are scewed or your mag build needs work. That rapid regen is weak. Perhaps it is your build or your way of making the numbers favor your argument

There is nothing on that build that would favor my argument. I just logged into my heavy armor mDK i regularly pvp with and made a screenshot of the two tooltips, that's all. Unbuffed, right after logging in.

Don't you understand? Whether the rapid regen is weak or strong is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how it compares to the vigor with the same stats.

Regen value low? Sure, i could boost the regen with major mending - but that would boost the vigor as well. I could cast major sorcery to boost the regen - but i could also cast major brutality and boost vigor. Buffs are completely irrelevant, whats relevant is the fact that even for a magicka build (more spell damage than weapon damage, more max magicka than max stamina), vigor, with the same stats, is still 50% stronger than regen...

That means on a stamina build, vigor isn't even in the same galaxy as regen on a magicka build.

DUTCH_REAPER · August 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Bowman is right. Your rapid is very low. It's also half the cost. Longer duration is important and hps is not the only important thing. If y flipped the durations. A healer wouldn't have time to cast other heals, buff the group, and sustain. Duration is extremely important when it comes to heals.

Rapids isnt supposed to be a primary heal while vigor is.

With your logic you could say combat prayer is better than vigor: "Omg it's instant, aoe and buffs damage for everyone"

Every class has a magicka source of healing. Every single one. Those are options too.

Need i mention shields?

What does stamina have? Besides vigor? Rally is only good one time in a fight. It it ticks for less than 8 seconds it's bad. And then it's used and is bad again until 8 seconds when it heals for less than Ward's.

I'm sorry bro..what is a mDK "class" source of healing in PVP? Don't say a damage ability. Bc u don't need vigor to damage someone to get a heal. Don't say resto skill because you can use whatever weapon you want with vigor. I'm genuinely curious.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2016

Everyone is just trying to make all classes identical. Let's keep things different.

I've got 11 characters, i play tons of builds both stam and magicka. This game isn't as imbalanced as many of you in the forum cry about.

Also, to who ever is arguing vigor is always used in conjunction with dodge roll... so what. If you're going to complain about the synergies between it can it what it is. A vigor that costs twice as much as the tool tip because you HAVE TO dodge roll to heal.

DUTCH_REAPER · August 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

So funny to see this game go full 180. Do you remember when stick and dress were the kings in PVP? Lol nobody used 2h It's a cycle I reckon. But it wasn't too long ago when Stam users had an overwhelming outcry on these forums for more damage, a Stam heal, making stamina weapons more viable in PVP etc etc.

Bottom line up front- leave vigor alone and make the other morph of it a magic user version. I mean it is in the Alliance War tree. We are talking about using it in PVP. So why shouldn't a magic version be available in the morph? If you say the resto blah blah blah please stop talking and sit this convo out. If you don't agree then you must be fearing my mDK because he will rock that skill like a boss and give all you Stam users the pain train.

I am firmly against players who ask for stam/mag morphs of everything. This game should not just be all skills seperated into stam and mag morphs. That is what kills diversity. This is why i am against stam whips or stam cripples or mag vigor or stam frags etc. If we did this for every popular ability you would see much less diversity than we have ever seen before. Theory crafting would be dead.

If you dont want to use a resto to heal than dont. Just realize your health sustain needs to come from somewhere. For mag builds this is easier because you have class abilities which wont tie you to a staff. This is the same for stam builds. if we want good healing sustained they are tied to a 2h for rally. Stam can not really really on class skills for healing. Vigor is a way to get around using 2h as a crutch much like mag users have class skills.

I too do not believe there should be a Stam mag morph for every skill. But we are not talking about ever skill. We are talking about a viable heal in PVP. Btw I am also the guy saying leave vigor alone and I play both mag and Stam characters. I am sick of the nerfing. But the other heal of vigor 99.9% of the time never gets used in PVP. So why not make it a magic morph?