Why is it easier to get Flawless than it is to get a sharpened greatsword?

Strider_Roshin · August 2016

Items that require such skill to get shouldn't have such horrible RNG. Can we get a token system already?

Daemons_Bane · August 2016

Well, technically you have already answered your own questionnat least

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · August 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Items that require such skill to get shouldn't have such horrible RNG. Can we get a token system already?

We desperately need a token system. One of the reasons I stopped grinding for gear was because of the RNG nightmare. Grinding for gear IS NOT FUN. Getting the gear you deserve and heading straight to Cyrodiil IS FUN.

Humatiel · August 2016

Just because I am stormproof on four toons and flawless on a fifth and have completed all three new vet trials and there HM (on all five characters on every role) and have yet to receive a sharpened inferno staff doesnt mean rng is bad

Recremen · August 2016

RNG is horrible by design. Unless you heavily modify the actual structure of the system, you are never guaranteed to get the item you want no matter how many trials you run. Let us assume that all Maelstrom Weapons have an equal drop chance and all the traits likewise have an equal drop chance. I don't remember if Maelstrom Weapons have a reduced set of traits they can drop, so for now I'll assume they can drop all 8 traits.

Since you are guaranteed to get a weapon on VMA (thank goodness), that means our loot table is just 8 times the number of weapon types that can drop. We have 12 weapon types, so that's a total of 96 distinct items on our loot table. If you only want 1 item from these 96, we can calculate the odds of getting it after a certain number of trials easily. We divide 1 by 96 (our base odds of getting the item), subtract it from 1 (to get our base odds of NOT getting the item), then raise this number to the power of the number of trials you are doing.

Let's try doing 96 trials! that will surely get you the item you want, yes? NO!! (1= (1/96)) raised to the 96th power is still a 36.6 chance of getting "nothing". Not terrible odds after 96 trials, but not really something I'd want to invest in. I mean, who wants to run a trial 96 times, and still have such a high chance of not getting what they want?

I mean, you could argue that a player should have more flexibility with their build so that they don't need an exact weapon/trait combo, and you could argue that completing the content is the main reward (I do agree there at least), but the fact that could could also just plain not even get a 2-hander, let alone the one you want, is kind of troubling. As such, though I acknowledge they've made great strides in ensuring players are rewarded good gear for their efforts, I have to admit that some variation of a token system would be better.

gibous · August 2016

Token system needed. Keep the current RNG weapon reward, but if you decon the weapon you should get a maelstrom token along with the mats. Don't even care that much if it takes 40 tokens to get the right weapon as long as I know what I'm in for. 40 runs would have people in there as a major time-sink which is what the RNG system seems to be meant for as it currently is.

Ghost-Shot · August 2016

@Oreyn_Bearclaw this is what you've been training for Bear!

KingYogi415 · August 2016

No token system.

We need smart loot. any item/trait you have not received need to be weighted higher in the drop pool.

Same with trails. I'm on my 11th aether ring, but not a single V O necklace. 4 aether neck's. I feel like i'm just getting trolled at this point.

Recremen · August 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

No token system.

We need smart loot. any item/trait you have not received need to be weighted higher in the drop pool.

Same with trails. I'm on my 11th aether ring, but not a single V O necklace. 4 aether neck's. I feel like i'm just getting trolled at this point.

That only decreases the odds of perpetual failure, not guarantees eventual success.

code65536 · August 2016

I've got 2 sharpened greatswords (and a couple of sharpened battle axes) that are of limited use to me because I don't PvP much. Say, have you got any sharpened 1H axes or lightning staves? I'd love to trade... er, no, wait...

Asata · August 2016

I definitely agree with a token system. Have one for every dungeon in the game.

Jaronking · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

I've got 2 sharpened greatswords (and a couple of sharpened battle axes) that are of limited use to me because I don't PvP much. Say, have you got any sharpened 1H axes or lightning staves? I'd love to trade... er, no, wait...

I swear they need to make it so you can trade MA weapons with people who have completed MA.It would ease up the pain IMO.I know a lot of people who gets weapons their friends could use and vice versa.

DRXHarbinger · August 2016

If this is for an overload build you're wasting your time on swords. The passive doesn't affect overload. Buy some daggers for 50 gold and be done with it. This has been said for a long long time now.

Strider_Roshin · August 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

If this is for an overload build you're wasting your time on swords. The passive doesn't affect overload. Buy some daggers for 50 gold and be done with it. This has been said for a long long time now.

No, this is for my stamblade.

KingYogi415 · August 2016

With a token system it could take 10-20 runs to get 1 item.

With smart loot after 20 runs, you should have 1 of everything with some good traits.

someone who has ran 100+ should have had every single trait/weapon combo drop.

peniku8 · August 2016

I think there are 100 or more MSA loot rant threads around, it's sad how nobody of the devs said anything about this, it's not like a token system would be way too much work or make the entire thing just too easy. The exclusiveness of these weapons should not lie within horrible RNG or say, a way too big loot pool.
@ZOS_RichLambert notice us senpai :'(
I've done the arena 100 times now and I'm still running for a sharpened dagger and several sharpened inferno staves.

Skcarkden · August 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Items that require such skill to get shouldn't have such horrible RNG. Can we get a token system already?

Could you please elaborate the token system a bit more?

Is it that like where in other MMO's for doing lairs it drops 'coins' that can only be used to buy a selection of items from a special vendor?

I could live with a system like that at a higher price that it takes more attempts to afford than it would take to get one drop of it, because at least then it's guaranteed in the long run.

DRXHarbinger · August 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

If this is for an overload build you're wasting your time on swords. The passive doesn't affect overload. Buy some daggers for 50 gold and be done with it. This has been said for a long long time now.

No, this is for my stamblade.

Infallible on a stamblade? Why is this going to work?

code65536 · August 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

If this is for an overload build you're wasting your time on swords. The passive doesn't affect overload. Buy some daggers for 50 gold and be done with it. This has been said for a long long time now.

No, this is for my stamblade.

Infallible on a stamblade? Why is this going to work?

Er. What? Thread title says Flawless (as in, "Flawless Conqueror", aka "yet another person burned by vMA drop RNG" not "here's a clever synonym for Infallible").

DRXHarbinger · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

If this is for an overload build you're wasting your time on swords. The passive doesn't affect overload. Buy some daggers for 50 gold and be done with it. This has been said for a long long time now.

No, this is for my stamblade.

Infallible on a stamblade? Why is this going to work?

Er. What? Thread title says Flawless (as in, "Flawless Conqueror", aka "yet another person burned by vMA drop RNG" not "here's a clever synonym for Infallible").

Errrrrrrr what? Think Vma rng has nothing to do with this. He's on about it easier to get flawless than a sharpened infallible sword (which doesn't drop in vma) but he's using a stam blade for a mag set?

Strider_Roshin · August 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

If this is for an overload build you're wasting your time on swords. The passive doesn't affect overload. Buy some daggers for 50 gold and be done with it. This has been said for a long long time now.

No, this is for my stamblade.

Infallible on a stamblade? Why is this going to work?

Er. What? Thread title says Flawless (as in, "Flawless Conqueror", aka "yet another person burned by vMA drop RNG" not "here's a clever synonym for Infallible").

Errrrrrrr what? Think Vma rng has nothing to do with this. He's on about it easier to get flawless than a sharpened infallible sword (which doesn't drop in vma) but he's using a stam blade for a mag set?

VMSA has everything to do with it. I was asking why is it easier to get The Flawless Conqueror title (a perfect run without dying) than it is to get a sharpened maelstrom greatsword. The rng in this arena is absolutely terrible, and there needs to be a system in place that'll guarantee that they'll get a decent drop eventually. With a token system we could exchange our unused maelstrom weapons for a token, and we could also get a token for beating it, and 5 tokens for getting a perfect run. Then there could be a daedric merchant that sells every maelstrom weapon variation for 20 tokens each. This way a person will eventually get their desired weapon after 10 runs (which is around 10 hours real time). They still need to beat the arena so it's not like we're giving anything away for free. We're just simply reducing the influence that luck has on your gear.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2016

Humatiel wrote: »

Just because I am stormproof on four toons and flawless on a fifth and have completed all three new vet trials and there HM (on all five characters on every role) and have yet to receive a sharpened inferno staff doesnt mean rng is bad

I disagree

Strider_Roshin · August 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Just because I am stormproof on four toons and flawless on a fifth and have completed all three new vet trials and there HM (on all five characters on every role) and have yet to receive a sharpened inferno staff doesnt mean rng is bad

I disagree

Lol I think he was being facetious.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw this is what you've been training for Bear!

Just kill me now.

I got real excited about re-grinding this place for about 2 weeks. I say regrinding this because I already did it once to get precise in most things, back when precise was better in trials before they changed it. Now I am after sharpened. The only sharpened thing I have seen in grind 2.0 is sharpened Resto.

Hey guys look how awesome ZOS is. They are giving us a drop every run. BUT WAIT!!!! They tripled the size of the loot table. JK... Its far worse than it ever was. Can we please go back to November 2015? K thanks.

Give us the ability to change traits or give us a token system. For the love of god. Also, you think this is bad? How impossible is it going to be to get a monster shoulder in anything useful next patch. There will be more of them than weapons, and they still have a loot table that seems to be about 90% prosperous and training.

Edit: Also, while I encourage people to keep making these threads, they will never get a meaningful response from the Devs. They view RNG as the only carrot they have to lead us all. Shame, because they dont realize (or dont give a flying F)that there are people leaving this otherwise wonderful game over a broken loot system. The game itself should be the carrot...

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2016

Another option, allow VMA weapons to be traded for one another. How amazaballs would that be? Someone hinted at it earlier.

Admittedly, they really helped the RNG nightmare with bind on group. The two places this does nothing is Monster Shoulders and VMA weapons. If you made them trade-able with one another, all of our problems would be solved. People would still have a carrot because a nice drop would still net you a little gold I am guessing, and people wouldnt want to rage quite the game over a damn staff.

davidj8291 · August 2016

Best solution after a token system I have come up with is adding an ability to the Magisters in the Mage's Guild or a new NPC:

Unbind gear option. You pay Tel Var, Gold, AP, etc to have a bound piece of gear set to Bind on Equip, making it eligible for sale or trade. Maybe limit the option to group members or guild members only and ineligible for Guild Traders, etc. Put a time limit on it being unbound. Whatever necessary to enable this feature but still keep the game's loot system "honest".

KatzMainTank · August 2016

"What if I told you that this...RNG...doesn't exist. That it is in fact a biased percentage based on server data to keep people pounding their heads against the RNG alter in hopes that tattooing their credit card number on the back of their head will grant them white-knight of ZoS status...eventually." - Morpheus on RNG in ESO

Sallington · August 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Another option, allow VMA weapons to be traded for one another. How amazaballs would that be? Someone hinted at it earlier.

Admittedly, they really helped the RNG nightmare with bind on group. The two places this does nothing is Monster Shoulders and VMA weapons. If you made them trade-able with one another, all of our problems would be solved. People would still have a carrot because a nice drop would still net you a little gold I am guessing, and people wouldnt want to rage quite the game over a damn staff.

I'd even be fine if you could trade in a Maelstrom weapon for a token, and it took 3-5 tokens for a weapon of your choice.

Recremen · August 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw this is what you've been training for Bear!

Just kill me now.

I got real excited about re-grinding this place for about 2 weeks. I say regrinding this because I already did it once to get precise in most things, back when precise was better in trials before they changed it. Now I am after sharpened. The only sharpened thing I have seen in grind 2.0 is sharpened Resto.

Hey guys look how awesome ZOS is. They are giving us a drop every run. BUT WAIT!!!! They tripled the size of the loot table. JK... Its far worse than it ever was. Can we please go back to November 2015? K thanks.

Give us the ability to change traits or give us a token system. For the love of god. Also, you think this is bad? How impossible is it going to be to get a monster shoulder in anything useful next patch. There will be more of them than weapons, and they still have a loot table that seems to be about 90% prosperous and training.

Edit: Also, while I encourage people to keep making these threads, they will never get a meaningful response from the Devs. They view RNG as the only carrot they have to lead us all. Shame, because they dont realize (or dont give a flying F)that there are people leaving this otherwise wonderful game over a broken loot system. The game itself should be the carrot...

It's such a shame they're still using what appears to be pure RNG as the only carrot. There are so many modified RNG systems that would keep the carrot but lose the stick. For instance, you can keep track of per-character loot payout and simply remove already-awarded items from the loot table until the whole table has been distributed, at which point it resets. Under this system, dual-wield weapons would of course need to be distributed two at a time, but that's ALREADY something that should be happening. Totes ridonculous that every other weapon type only needs one copy. There are some other ideas floating around my RNG thread.

undefeatdgaul · August 2016

yeh token system is a must have. you shouldnt have to base your endgame build on random luck. If I grind a place 20-30 times and dont get one piece of gear I need there is a serious problem.

tokens tokens tokens. I grind & earn tokens, use said tokens to purchase the gear I actually want. every mmo Ive played has them, its not complicated

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw this is what you've been training for Bear!

Just kill me now.

I got real excited about re-grinding this place for about 2 weeks. I say regrinding this because I already did it once to get precise in most things, back when precise was better in trials before they changed it. Now I am after sharpened. The only sharpened thing I have seen in grind 2.0 is sharpened Resto.

Hey guys look how awesome ZOS is. They are giving us a drop every run. BUT WAIT!!!! They tripled the size of the loot table. JK... Its far worse than it ever was. Can we please go back to November 2015? K thanks.

Give us the ability to change traits or give us a token system. For the love of god. Also, you think this is bad? How impossible is it going to be to get a monster shoulder in anything useful next patch. There will be more of them than weapons, and they still have a loot table that seems to be about 90% prosperous and training.

Edit: Also, while I encourage people to keep making these threads, they will never get a meaningful response from the Devs. They view RNG as the only carrot they have to lead us all. Shame, because they dont realize (or dont give a flying F)that there are people leaving this otherwise wonderful game over a broken loot system. The game itself should be the carrot...

It's such a shame they're still using what appears to be pure RNG as the only carrot. There are so many modified RNG systems that would keep the carrot but lose the stick. For instance, you can keep track of per-character loot payout and simply remove already-awarded items from the loot table until the whole table has been distributed, at which point it resets. Under this system, dual-wield weapons would of course need to be distributed two at a time, but that's ALREADY something that should be happening. Totes ridonculous that every other weapon type only needs one copy. There are some other ideas floating around my RNG thread.

Preventing double drops would solve the problem immediately. Even with DW, it doesnt matter too much. I run double axes at the moment on Stam DPS, because every dagger I have is charged or defending. No double drops would be fine with me as I want to run 1 Sharp Axe, 1 Sharp Dagger. On magic, I do not even run a VMA weapon because only one is superior to crafted, and that is sharpened Destro. I have precise Destros collecting dust ATM.

The only people this would really hurt is people wanting to run double Sharp staff, or double bow for example, or people trying to gear more than one toon. You could even take this one step further. No double drops per character. That way if you really did need 2 of something, you could: 1. Run it 96 times on a toon and start over, or 2. Start running on others toons once your first toon got it.

ANYTHING would be better than it is now. I have been playing since beta, and my main goal is trials. I am in a good group that does speedruns of VMOL, but I am close to my end with this game (and yes, it's over a Damn trait on a weapon). I can do a rotation perfectly, but my DPS is always going to be less than the guy next to me who had better RNG in a BS solo instance. It makes no sense, and I know many players, good f'ing players, that already saw through the nonsense and left.

@Recremen I really like your other thread, read it earlier today. It illustrates nicely just how bad RNG can be. What I really don't get is why they are so set on this in the first place? If you gave players a meaningful way to progress/improve their gear, none of this would be an issue. There would be a big enough "carrot" for everyone. You are telling me that an enchanter can change the enchant on a VMA weapon (thus making it useless), a woodworker or blacksmith can decon it or upgrade it, but noone in all of tamriel has the power to trade it or turn a charged dagger into a sharpened dagger? Where is the lore in that?

Also you think this is bad, just wait until there are 540 possible monster shoulders to deal with.