caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Disclaimer: not trying to kill anyone's class. Just trying to tone us down a little, a little more toning on stam.. A little buffing in magicka areas.



The heavy weapons passive should only work for two handed abilities.

Instead of spell pen, light armor should give 6% spell damage boost.

Medium armor passive should be reduced to 6%.

DBoS needs its dot removed and potentially a cost equal to ferocious leap.
If you wanna keep the dot, give it to flawless dawnbreaker.

Shuffle needs its snare immunity removed. If it's gonna give 20% dodge chance.. It's gotta drop to 10% after 5--6 seconds and function like immoveable.

All snares need to be made major and minor snares where combined cannot stack to 10% more, additive, to major and minor expedition. So.. Snare hard cap.

NBs need 1 negative effect removed from their several negative effect abilities. If Wrobel wants them to be the down and dirty debuffing class like he mentioned in the last meeting, and you really want to keep all that... Then they have to stop having so many ways to buff themselves on top of all that.

Fragmented shield, should scale of magicka. Changes that worthless flame thing that used to be a toggle, to something worthwhile. Honestly I would just say a dragon roar, which would function the same as fear.. Give minor main, and increase fire dmg done by like 2-4% reduce the cost of abilities by like 4% too. Eruption damage should scale up to good dmg over time. Cinder storm should have its radius buffed.

Give Sorcs 4 more seconds on their shields, scale back the streak cost increase nonsense a little. Lower resources returned by dark deal by 10%

Change radiant a damage scaling to be 20-30% instead of 50. Remove minor protection or minor vitality from restoring focus. Reduce cost of javelin. Remove non dodgeable dark flare trauma, if it's reflected, don't have trauma persist. Make puncturing sweeps dodgeable, remove that snare in ritual stuff. Make damage of retribution scale up more time spent inside, decrease its radius.

Mag nb.. I'm sorry.. I don't really know much about you. I know you would be fun and interesting to play one day. But until then I don't know what to say.

Double all resistance values, increase resist cap to 65%.

Lower vigor heals by 6%

Reduce dodge roll cost reduction in medium armor 4%

Uhhhhhh... I'll come back when I remember the others.

The Spell Penetration passive is equivalent to 9.768% damage increase in PvE and 8.14% in PvP, while 6% spell damage would be less than a 3% DPS boost, so you're asking for a nerf.

Medium Armor's 12% bonus is added separately to the equation and isn't 12% of your total WD. This usually gives roughly 300-400 Weapon damage, which is roughly 6.5% DPS, not factoring in Resistances, meaning it's about 4-5% in most situations. Already weaker than LA's penetration by a noticeable amount.

All Stamina builds are forced into running DBoS since no other Ultimates in game scale in favor of Stamina. Ultimates favor high resources pools since their coefficients are much higher in accordance to availability. (I.e; Magicka builds run higher than 40k Magicka, while majority of Stamina builds are sub 35k) Nerfing DBoS in terms of DPS further broadens the gap of this issue, although it may be alleviated with the incoming Weapon Skill Ultimates. I'd be much happier seeing the cost of DBoS go back to 150 instead, or having the DoT duration increase and the damage per tick decreasing, to allow for the same overall damage to be done, just over a more lengthy period of time.

I can agree with Shuffle, it does a lot. This is sort of made up for the fact that it costs a lot of Stamina to cost, but the ease of regeneration sources kind of mitigate this issue.

A simple way to fix the issue of NB's would be to move Veiled Strike out of the Shadow tree to prevent the proc of Shadow Barrier.

Flames of Oblivion is useless? While it's not insane, it's definitely still strong damage wise. Cauterize on the other hand... Minor Maim comes from Choking Talons, why do you need another source? Some of their abilities are pretty pricey, but Battle Roar is a great way to sustain resources. Still, a minor cost decrease would go a long way with Solo Mag DK's in Cyro. No comment on Eruption, seeing that it already does exactly what you're asking for...

Seeing that there are still sorcs out there today who dominate (outside of Shield Breaker encounters, but that set is stupid) I don't see how adding 4 seconds to shields does anything except let less experienced players reap the benefits of the class instead of progressing and getting better at it. There is so much wrong with sorcs from a balance point and none of your suggestions would solve any real issues. Try fixing the fact that 90% of the sorc kit is pure utility that does the same thing in different ways, or is irrelevant due to poorly thought out mechanics (pets).

Radiant is a fickle beast to balance since it's pretty much the only thing keeping Magplars competitive in PvE. Nerf it and they lose value there, so I'd rather see more counterplay added to the ability via a range nerf. Making it so players can only have one beam on them at a time (Players only, NPC's should still be able to have multiple beams on) would also help the issue of groups just running around and casting it while spreading out to remove all counter play. I like the idea of the retribution suggestion however.

Magblade (and stamblade) need their damage done from stealth reworked to tone down their toxicity in terms of combating. While there are plenty of counters to cloak and stealth in the game and when they are properly utilized they pretty much negate the relevance of ganking builds, stealth burst still remains one of the most unbalanced aspects to the game since ESO's launch. Reworking Stealth damage or any damage that deals more than 50% of your health in a single hit to deal damage over time instead of upfront would drastically help Cyrodiil be more enjoyable and skill based. Back to Magblade, Battle Spirit crushes all strengths of the Damage/Healing gameplay of the play style, I think a slight healing buff to these skills would help them greatly.

Mitigation value increases would help, but that would mean their penetrative counter parts would need to be increased as well. Simply increasing mitigation would leave everyone with an obvious choice of stacking mitigation since there would be no answer to getting around it. Mitigation cap going to 65% would be okay IF there was an effective damage reduction cap, where additional sources (Undeath, Cyrodiil's Light, etc) did not stack further. Buffing Mitigation caps would make the cancerous builds of Cyrodiil such as Reactive far, far worse.

With the increase of access to heal debuffing via sources of Major/Minor Defile and stacking effects such as Fasalla's Guile, simply reducing healing done is questionable. While healing is able to be stacked pretty absurdly (Malubeth + Major/Minor Mending + Major/Minor Vitality + Heavy Armor passives + etc...) you need to analyze where Vigor is strong and why. The introduction of Major Vitality potions are the primary reason Vigor and other healing has reached new levels of absurdity, but it applies to any skill. I believe the real solution would be to nerf sources that provide % gains to healing, rather than nerfing base abilities.

Simply nerfing the Tumbling CP passive would help greatly. Try perma dodge rolling in a no CP campaign, while still being able to deal damage after said and done. The issue again isn't the base skills, rather the increasing amount of stackable % sources via CP and new items.

I see a nerf STAM post here

What if ZOS added a decent sized flat heal component that scales with magicka to dragonblood?

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

The largest issue in the game right now isn't power creep or the lack of hard caps; it's the fact that hard caps still exist for resistance and that has allowed penetration and raw damage to easily outpace mitigation.

Right. Mitigation is more or less the same as it was at release 2+ years ago, while damage output went through the roof.

I mean, a mag DK in full heavy armor, volatile armor active, with shield and a defending sword, holding block and spamming dragon blood, and my HP is still dropping like a rock when under attack by just a single stamina NB. If i ever drop block i just die instantly. That's imbalanced as ***. Can only imagine how a light armor staff wielder would feel.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

What if ZOS added a decent sized flat heal component that scales with magicka to dragonblood?

I have no clue why they haven't already. But I don't think anyone would mind. They say it's for tanking so maybe have one morph that does the percentage heal and one that just provides burst scaled to magicka.

I've personally always felt the class would benefit greatly from a melee weapon, so I think you could fix DK by giving them
a "Flaming Sword Expert" passive that causes damage and healing done with TH weapons to scale to their highest resource instead of strictly Stamina and Weapon damage. The trade off would need to be more poison morphs and skills that cost stamina, or else everyone would just switch to MDK. But this instantly makes MDK viable for all content and re integrates the class into something more akin to what it was initially meant to be.

Sounds like you should just play stam DK. No reason to homogenize the classes anymore than they already are...

Also what's wrong with a resto staff for mDK? If the "dragonblood is the only thing holding mDK back" argument held up, then using a resto staff and healing ward would fix all their problems, right? There's so much more going on for mDK than just dragonblood imo.

Nothing's wrong with the Restro Staff. I'd say it's a perfect fit for MDK, by necessity. It's the Destro staff that is
the issue, bc the skills on Destro staff are somewhat redundant with regard to DK class skills. Lots of AOE, very
little single target, no gap closer, no execute, etc. It doesn't really add anything of value like it does with other
classes. DKs need a third magic based weapon skill line to shore up the deficiencies of the class, and to facilitate
the melee mage play-style that their class skills are geared towards.

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

What if ZOS added a decent sized flat heal component that scales with magicka to dragonblood?

I have no clue why they haven't already. But I don't think anyone would mind. They say it's for tanking so maybe have one morph that does the percentage heal and one that just provides burst scaled to magicka.

I've personally always felt the class would benefit greatly from a melee weapon, so I think you could fix DK by giving them
a "Flaming Sword Expert" passive that causes damage and healing done with TH weapons to scale to their highest resource instead of strictly Stamina and Weapon damage. The trade off would need to be more poison morphs and skills that cost stamina, or else everyone would just switch to MDK. But this instantly makes MDK viable for all content and re integrates the class into something more akin to what it was initially meant to be.

Sounds like you should just play stam DK. No reason to homogenize the classes anymore than they already are...

Also what's wrong with a resto staff for mDK? If the "dragonblood is the only thing holding mDK back" argument held up, then using a resto staff and healing ward would fix all their problems, right? There's so much more going on for mDK than just dragonblood imo.

Nothing's wrong with the Restro Staff. I'd say it's a perfect fit for MDK, by necessity. It's the Destro staff that is
the issue, bc the skills on Destro staff are somewhat redundant with regard to DK class skills. Lots of AOE, very
little single target, no gap closer, no execute, etc. It doesn't really add anything of value like it does with other
classes. DKs need a third magic based weapon skill line to shore up the deficiencies of the class, and to facilitate
the melee mage play-style that their class skills are geared towards.

I mean....sorcs use Crushing Shock. Who else uses destro skills in PvP?

Impulse zerglings is not a valid answer.

Asking for a whole new weapon line to shore up the class's weaknesses is a bandaid fix and a cop out. Propose fixes to the class's issues instead please.

Sharee wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

The largest issue in the game right now isn't power creep or the lack of hard caps; it's the fact that hard caps still exist for resistance and that has allowed penetration and raw damage to easily outpace mitigation.

Right. Mitigation is more or less the same as it was at release 2+ years ago, while damage output went through the roof.

I mean, a mag DK in full heavy armor, volatile armor active, with shield and a defending sword, holding block and spamming dragon blood, and my HP is still dropping like a rock when under attack by just a single stamina NB. If i ever drop block i just die instantly. That's imbalanced as ***. Can only imagine how a light armor staff wielder would feel.

Yeah it's tough, I was hit for something like 14k from a single bow Snipe shot the other day.
I mean hell, I can't do a 14k crit with my class MELEE ultimate with 3k spell damage.

Are there things I can do to mitigate it? Yes. The most effective of those is to change to my stamina build. Which says a lot.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

The Spell Penetration passive is equivalent to 9.768% damage increase in PvE and 8.14% in PvP, while 6% spell damage would be less than a 3% DPS boost, so you're asking for a nerf.

Medium Armor's 12% bonus is added separately to the equation and isn't 12% of your total WD. This usually gives roughly 300-400 Weapon damage, which is roughly 6.5% DPS, not factoring in Resistances, meaning it's about 4-5% in most situations. Already weaker than LA's penetration by a noticeable amount.

1. Magic builds have fewer armor debuffs, so isn't the light armor passive itself at least partially an attempt
at balance rather than a true 8-10% damage buff? Maces/Mauls plus Night Mother's gaze penetrate as much as this passive against any target with moe than 12.5K resistance, if I'm not mistaken. Beyond that, with the sharpened trait, plus Major Fracture (tank Puncture; DK Noxious Breath) and the Crusher Enchant, most bosses will be fully penetrated. So the value
of Light Armor passives is really just equivalent to the value of the NMG's 5 pc bonus: around 4% pentration/damage done, because that's all Stam has to do to overcome the deficit..

2. For PVE, Medium armor passives do typically yield only marginally higher returns than 300-400 weapon damage (Probably 320-450), but that's before factoring major/minor brutality into the equation; so you're really looking at a functional gain of 400--560 weapon damage. So it's around the 8.4%-9.8% range relative to the penetration gains made with light armor passives. In PvP, the numbers tend to get much higher with less emphasis on crit chance. So, light armor passives are arguably slightly inferior in PVE, but far inferior in PVP.

The 300-400 Weapon damage was obtained from deriving what wearing of 5 pieces of Medium armor in a the "BiS" gear-setup for stamina DPS in PvE would grant. Major and Minor Brutality have no bearing if you read what I said earlier, the 12% is applied to your base Weapon Damage before other % amps, and is added separately and does not stack. For example if you have 1000 base WD and wear 5 pieces of Medium armor, have Major Brutality, and Minor Brutality, you will have 1370 Weapon damage. 1000 + ((1000 x .12) + (1000 x .20) + (1000. 05)). Based on your example you think you would arrive at 1411, which is incorrect.

Weapon Damage's DPS worth is a flat value and is applied directly to coefficients of each ability in your active damaging kit, and stops there. This means there is an effective ceiling of DPS you can gain from it, which is roughly around 1200-1500 DPS worth in end game builds, assuming no armor (which is achievable in a min/maxed trial group). Penetration however is a % damage increase, which scales in power based on the damage you're dealing. This means Penetration grows in value the stronger your character gets, so it is far more favorable to stack Penetration than Weapon or Spell damage.

I didn't realize that was the case. But i just checked and fully buffed the difference between my weapon damage with 5 pieces of medium and 4 pieces of medium (no other loss to damage) was 412. Without the buff I had 3150-ish and without the buff and without the passive I had around 2830. With just major and minor brutality it was also about a 320 difference with and without the armor passive. So while, you are correct that brutality doesn't stack with medium armors damage boost, other damage buffs clearly do, and the total WD one would see on a VO/TBS/Maelstrom setup is slightly higher than mine unbuffed, so with a single weapon damage enchant on their Bow, they'd actually show closer to the high end of that gain.

Any further boosts to "damage done" during a trial would also boost the value of the passive, since damage done modifiers are calculated after Weapon Damage, as does CP in Mighty; though the former doesn't show it at all and the latter only does so on the tooltip.

So to say that the passive merely increases WD around 350 is fairly misleading; and during the kind of endgame trial situation that you use to make this claim, the light armor penetration bonus would be fairly worthless as penetration would be reached by Stamina builds as well. Most penetration buffs and numbers are shown as flat increases, however percentages do exist for stam builds stll through Maces and Mauls. The light armor passive Concentration is not an example of this. It grants roughly 5K penetration which essentially instantly debuffs your target in much the same way that sharpened weapons do: a decrease of around 8% resistance. Like sharpened though, it gives no bonus to damage once penetration exceeds Spell resistance. Concentration can be helpful in PVP and Pug Raids but it's clearly outclassed by WD which is an actual fatctor in tooltip values, healing AND damage done.

I'm not confused, I already know this. 33K =50 percent mitigation (and the resistance cap) Full penetration is possible for Stamina though. Major Fracture 5K, Crusher infused 2K, NMG 2500, Alkosh 3K, Sunderflame 3300 + Minor fracture1300 take the rest. So the gain you get from Concentration is erased by stamina gear, and therefore it's really only equal to the weakest 5 pc bonus, which is NMG 2500 or 4% increased damage.

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Burning_Talons wrote: »

You forgot #FixDragonBlood

Haha unfortunately I've been in one too many meetings with ZoS to know that they aren't particularly keen on fixing dragons blood.

If ZOS has no intention of fixing what irrefutable is the fundamental issue with (PvP) mDK, then imo its a waste of time and energy talking about "fixing" mDK.

No amount of knockback, stun, fear or dmg buff will ever truly fix mDK.

This whole situation is like going to a doctor to treat a curable strain of blood cancer but the doctor gives you bionic hands instead. You don't have much energy to lift your arms or live for long but HEYY atleast you can knockout people with your new cyborg hands !! Woo !!

#DR.ZOSEinTheHaus

Yea.. But that's basically been their MO since, always.

Sigh.. true

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Disclaimer: not trying to kill anyone's class. Just trying to tone us down a little, a little more toning on stam.. A little buffing in magicka areas.



The heavy weapons passive should only work for two handed abilities.

Instead of spell pen, light armor should give 6% spell damage boost.

Medium armor passive should be reduced to 6%.

DBoS needs its dot removed and potentially a cost equal to ferocious leap.
If you wanna keep the dot, give it to flawless dawnbreaker.

Shuffle needs its snare immunity removed. If it's gonna give 20% dodge chance.. It's gotta drop to 10% after 5--6 seconds and function like immoveable.

All snares need to be made major and minor snares where combined cannot stack to 10% more, additive, to major and minor expedition. So.. Snare hard cap.

NBs need 1 negative effect removed from their several negative effect abilities. If Wrobel wants them to be the down and dirty debuffing class like he mentioned in the last meeting, and you really want to keep all that... Then they have to stop having so many ways to buff themselves on top of all that.

Fragmented shield, should scale of magicka. Changes that worthless flame thing that used to be a toggle, to something worthwhile. Honestly I would just say a dragon roar, which would function the same as fear.. Give minor main, and increase fire dmg done by like 2-4% reduce the cost of abilities by like 4% too. Eruption damage should scale up to good dmg over time. Cinder storm should have its radius buffed.

Give Sorcs 4 more seconds on their shields, scale back the streak cost increase nonsense a little. Lower resources returned by dark deal by 10%

Change radiant a damage scaling to be 20-30% instead of 50. Remove minor protection or minor vitality from restoring focus. Reduce cost of javelin. Remove non dodgeable dark flare trauma, if it's reflected, don't have trauma persist. Make puncturing sweeps dodgeable, remove that snare in ritual stuff. Make damage of retribution scale up more time spent inside, decrease its radius.

Mag nb.. I'm sorry.. I don't really know much about you. I know you would be fun and interesting to play one day. But until then I don't know what to say.

Double all resistance values, increase resist cap to 65%.

Lower vigor heals by 6%

Reduce dodge roll cost reduction in medium armor 4%

Uhhhhhh... I'll come back when I remember the others.

OP: Hey man dont worry im just going to tone you down a little.

Me: Well im sure it couldnt hurt to listen.

*OP then proceeds to stab my guts out with his "toning".... Jesus you are asking for an insane amount of nerfs to stam.......*

5K DoT [!] from a Stamina set - does more damage than actual skills. Yep, it's ESO and @Wrobel is in charge of development.

I dunno what will happen first: CU actually releasing or the devs getting a clue.