ZoS... A word please...

KenaPKK · August 2016

Magus wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

A lot of these suggestions are decent and correctly identify balance issues that should be obvious to anyone objective that PvPs. They more alleviate rather than address what I believe are the root issues plaguing PvP balance, but I could get behind most of them.

I'm not quite sure why you believe Templar Sweeps, an AOE, should be dodgeable though. AoEs are not intended to be dodged. As it is, people simple just have to walk away from the templar to avoid it since it renders the caster immobile. Since it is hard to actually hit people with this ability and making it dodgeable would mean the main templar attack abilities (flare, RD, sweeps) would require ideal circumstances to actually hit people.

Joy, its just cause not all aoe's are undodgeable. Sweeps should be dodgeable, same as jabs are currently. I think you should at least have some measurable accountability, on magplar hands, of how to apply the dark flare heal debuff, wildly flinging into a group without a chance to miss on the debuff is a bit shaky. I am not opposed to it having an instant/near instant cast time however, or a crystal frag like proc chance. But sweeps, Dark flare debuff, and radiant as undodgeable should go imo. Then again, these are all just my opinions.

I am very accountable thank you. I never said the the a dark flare miss should apply the debuff. In fact I think it's dumb that it does.

It's fine that you think every single templar skill in the game should keep their awkward cast mechanics and be dodgeable. There is zero chance the Wrobel will make such a change so it's not like I am worried that I will wake up tomorrow and read that in a patch notes. You have decided to deem one particular class's AoE attack ought to be dodgable and not Sap essence, steel tornado, Draw essence, bombard, etc, and it's a legit question to ask why.

I can't use sap or steel tornado or bombard or draw essence as my spam dps ability to kill you either. Advocate reducing sweeps' damage to their level, and your argument would hold up. Sweeps being undodgeable is hardly a significant issue in the larger picture of PvP, but Rhage is right that it stands out among class dps abilities simply for this reason.

I see. My argument would "hold up" if we lower sweeps damage to that of Sap or Deep Breath, even though the later two hit things in a 180 degree circle, allow the caster unimpeded movement, the ability to block-cast, and an instant-cast which guaranteed 100% of that damage. Jabs also stands out among class DPS abilities in that the target can simply move to the side or backward and completely avoid the attack.

So keep the worst aspects of the ability (locking the templar into place, multiple attacks, and hitting only the immediate frontal arc), while reducing the damage to that of skills that do not have these disadvantages. Go ahead and keep telling others that their arguments don't "hold up."

You really do live in a bubble where Templars are victimized, performing horribly, and in dire need of buffs aren't you?

Joy is right though. Can't block cast jabs like the other abilities with a 360 radius. I'm surprised I don't see more sap tanks these days since heavy armor tanks are all the rage now. I may bring mine back from years past to see how it performs with black rose.

Block casting sap or deep breath or steel tornado outside of execute range is not a threat though. You ignore those types of builds. Sweeps may be a conal channel, but that's its drawback for having so much more damage and comparable healing despite still being undodgeable. Magplars merely need to point it in the direction of the enemy, and there's no more thought to it.

That said, I think Joy latching onto this tiny detail of the post is derailing the thread... Sweeps is by no means distorting PvP like some other imbalanced are.

As for sap tanks, yea they're really strong right now, except that they are highly susceptible to heal debuffs like Fasalla's. Recall that the Magplar tanks that you see everywhere are immune to debuffs due to their purge. Nightblades have to run the vastly inferior and costly Purge skill to access a cleanse. One good heal debuff, and they go downhill quickly. If the enemy group doesn't debuff though, a properly built one is really hard to take down.

Ara_Valleria · August 2016

I'm sorry but giving DK's more CC abilities like fear or Knockback or some other form of hard unblockable CC will be a huge mistake.
Main Reasons :

Stam dks are already super effective.
Doesn't solve the core issue of Magicka dks. (GDB)
DKs are already one of the best for group play, in terms of AoE, CC and debuff.

General Reasons :

Fear CC or hard CC in general, has break free issues which ZoS has failed to solve for a long time. Introducing more CC doesn't help.
Fear is unique to NB like Wings are to DKs, Streak is to Sorc and Bol is to Templar. Giving ones unique ability to another will dilute class identity and ruin whatever balance is left in this game.

As for the disparity between Stamina and Magicka ~
A lot needs to be changed to achieve balance between the two.
The fact that as a stam build you can achieve double or triple the dmg [with ease] than that of a mag build, while having access to dot heal, burst heal, major mending, major vitality, snare immunity and dodge chance; is truly the Embodiment of Imbalance. IMO, to achieve proper balance between magikca and stamina builds, we need to not only equalize damage and sustain but also critically assess the buffs and defensive capabilities available to both.

Magus · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

A lot of these suggestions are decent and correctly identify balance issues that should be obvious to anyone objective that PvPs. They more alleviate rather than address what I believe are the root issues plaguing PvP balance, but I could get behind most of them.

I'm not quite sure why you believe Templar Sweeps, an AOE, should be dodgeable though. AoEs are not intended to be dodged. As it is, people simple just have to walk away from the templar to avoid it since it renders the caster immobile. Since it is hard to actually hit people with this ability and making it dodgeable would mean the main templar attack abilities (flare, RD, sweeps) would require ideal circumstances to actually hit people.

Joy, its just cause not all aoe's are undodgeable. Sweeps should be dodgeable, same as jabs are currently. I think you should at least have some measurable accountability, on magplar hands, of how to apply the dark flare heal debuff, wildly flinging into a group without a chance to miss on the debuff is a bit shaky. I am not opposed to it having an instant/near instant cast time however, or a crystal frag like proc chance. But sweeps, Dark flare debuff, and radiant as undodgeable should go imo. Then again, these are all just my opinions.

I am very accountable thank you. I never said the the a dark flare miss should apply the debuff. In fact I think it's dumb that it does.

It's fine that you think every single templar skill in the game should keep their awkward cast mechanics and be dodgeable. There is zero chance the Wrobel will make such a change so it's not like I am worried that I will wake up tomorrow and read that in a patch notes. You have decided to deem one particular class's AoE attack ought to be dodgable and not Sap essence, steel tornado, Draw essence, bombard, etc, and it's a legit question to ask why.

I can't use sap or steel tornado or bombard or draw essence as my spam dps ability to kill you either. Advocate reducing sweeps' damage to their level, and your argument would hold up. Sweeps being undodgeable is hardly a significant issue in the larger picture of PvP, but Rhage is right that it stands out among class dps abilities simply for this reason.

I see. My argument would "hold up" if we lower sweeps damage to that of Sap or Deep Breath, even though the later two hit things in a 180 degree circle, allow the caster unimpeded movement, the ability to block-cast, and an instant-cast which guaranteed 100% of that damage. Jabs also stands out among class DPS abilities in that the target can simply move to the side or backward and completely avoid the attack.

So keep the worst aspects of the ability (locking the templar into place, multiple attacks, and hitting only the immediate frontal arc), while reducing the damage to that of skills that do not have these disadvantages. Go ahead and keep telling others that their arguments don't "hold up."

You really do live in a bubble where Templars are victimized, performing horribly, and in dire need of buffs aren't you?

Joy is right though. Can't block cast jabs like the other abilities with a 360 radius. I'm surprised I don't see more sap tanks these days since heavy armor tanks are all the rage now. I may bring mine back from years past to see how it performs with black rose.

Block casting sap or deep breath or steel tornado outside of execute range is not a threat though. You ignore those types of builds. Sweeps may be a conal channel, but that's its drawback for having so much more damage and comparable healing despite still being undodgeable. Magplars merely need to point it in the direction of the enemy, and there's no more thought to it. That said, I think Joy latching onto this tiny detail of the post is derailing the thread... Sweeps is by no means distorting PvP like some other imbalanced are.

As for sap tanks, yea they're really strong right now, except that they are highly susceptible to heal debuffs like Fasalla's. Recall that the Magplar tanks that you see everywhere are immune to debuffs due to their purge. Nightblades have to run the vastly inferior and costly Purge skill to access a cleanse. One good heal debuff, and they go downhill quickly. If the enemy group doesn't debuff though, a properly built one is really hard to take down.

I agree with your assessment but a tank build running puncturing sweep is not a threat really either and they are open to hard cc while channeling it. I do love the purge of templar. I would totally support a buff to the efficient purge, either cost reduction or more effect removal. Heavy armor templar do not have endless magicka like a light armor one though, and if they get lazy casting their purge then RIP. That's a good way to tell how skilled the templar tank is, how they manage resources and keep debuffs off. That said, best way to defeat one is lethal arrow spam so they have to keep purging and burning their magicka or die to the debuffs just like your other examples.

Side note, I think a good way to tell how well someone is performing 1v1 vs in a small group would to bring back the animation to breath of life that made those line healing lines sort of like mutagen, so you would see if that tank is receiving heals from somewhere or not that is making them so tanky. It also made it really easy to identify healers back in the day lol.

Magus · August 2016

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

I'm sorry but giving DK's more CC abilities like fear or Knockback or some other form of hard unblockable CC will be a huge mistake.
Main Reasons :
Stam dks are already super effective.

Doesn't solve the core issue of Magicka dks. (GDB)

DKs are already one the best for group play, in terms of AoE, CC and debuff.

General Reasons :
Fear CC or hard CC in general, has break free issues which ZoS has failed to solve for a long time. Introducing more CC doesn't help.

Fear is unique to NB like Wings are to DKs, Streak is to Sorc and Bol is to Templar. Giving ones unique ability to another will dilute class identity and ruin whatever balance is left in this game.

As for the disparity between Stamina and Magicka ~
A lot needs to be changed to achieve balance between the two.
The fact that as a stam build you can achieve double or triple the dmg [with ease] than that of a mag build, while having access to dot heal, burst heal, major mending, major vitality, snare immunity and dodge chance; is truly the Embodiment of Imbalance. IMO, to achieve proper balance between magikca and stamina builds, we need to not only equalize damage and sustain but also critically assess the buffs and defensive capabilities available to both.

+1. Just make dragonblood ignore battle spirit like take flight does now. That's the only change I would make to DK. Though DK tanks would be even harder to kill as they spam talons on you for their buddies. I've noticed a lot of the mDKs of today aren't the same ones from yesteryear, so they are new to the class. They will get bored of spamming talons eventually but I view it as them exploring and enjoying every class, that they may have not played much of before.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Magus wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

I'm sorry but giving DK's more CC abilities like fear or Knockback or some other form of hard unblockable CC will be a huge mistake.
Main Reasons :
Stam dks are already super effective.

Doesn't solve the core issue of Magicka dks. (GDB)

DKs are already one the best for group play, in terms of AoE, CC and debuff.

General Reasons :
Fear CC or hard CC in general, has break free issues which ZoS has failed to solve for a long time. Introducing more CC doesn't help.

Fear is unique to NB like Wings are to DKs, Streak is to Sorc and Bol is to Templar. Giving ones unique ability to another will dilute class identity and ruin whatever balance is left in this game.

As for the disparity between Stamina and Magicka ~
A lot needs to be changed to achieve balance between the two.
The fact that as a stam build you can achieve double or triple the dmg [with ease] than that of a mag build, while having access to dot heal, burst heal, major mending, major vitality, snare immunity and dodge chance; is truly the Embodiment of Imbalance. IMO, to achieve proper balance between magikca and stamina builds, we need to not only equalize damage and sustain but also critically assess the buffs and defensive capabilities available to both.

+1. Just make dragonblood ignore battle spirit like take flight does now. That's the only change I would make to DK. Though DK tanks would be even harder to kill as they spam talons on you for their buddies. I've noticed a lot of the mDKs of today aren't the same ones from yesteryear, so they are new to the class. They will get bored of spamming talons eventually but I view it as them exploring and enjoying every class, that they may have not played much of before.

Stamina DK would be op. Needs smarter changes.

Magus · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

I'm sorry but giving DK's more CC abilities like fear or Knockback or some other form of hard unblockable CC will be a huge mistake.
Main Reasons :
Stam dks are already super effective.

Doesn't solve the core issue of Magicka dks. (GDB)

DKs are already one the best for group play, in terms of AoE, CC and debuff.

General Reasons :
Fear CC or hard CC in general, has break free issues which ZoS has failed to solve for a long time. Introducing more CC doesn't help.

Fear is unique to NB like Wings are to DKs, Streak is to Sorc and Bol is to Templar. Giving ones unique ability to another will dilute class identity and ruin whatever balance is left in this game.

As for the disparity between Stamina and Magicka ~
A lot needs to be changed to achieve balance between the two.
The fact that as a stam build you can achieve double or triple the dmg [with ease] than that of a mag build, while having access to dot heal, burst heal, major mending, major vitality, snare immunity and dodge chance; is truly the Embodiment of Imbalance. IMO, to achieve proper balance between magikca and stamina builds, we need to not only equalize damage and sustain but also critically assess the buffs and defensive capabilities available to both.

+1. Just make dragonblood ignore battle spirit like take flight does now. That's the only change I would make to DK. Though DK tanks would be even harder to kill as they spam talons on you for their buddies. I've noticed a lot of the mDKs of today aren't the same ones from yesteryear, so they are new to the class. They will get bored of spamming talons eventually but I view it as them exploring and enjoying every class, that they may have not played much of before.

Stamina DK would be op. Needs smarter changes.

It would be their magicka dump instead of wings, volatile armor, or igneous shield I suppose. They don't have a huge magicka pool but major mending, vigor, rally and dragonblood would make them difficult to kill yes. I could try this setup in PVE to sort of simulate it but there aren't people running this for things like vMA that I am aware of. Might see more sDK again and less stamplars and stamsorcs.

Edit: would still have no magicka to run purge so highly susceptible to debuffs and no escape mechanism.

Magus · August 2016

Magus wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

A lot of these suggestions are decent and correctly identify balance issues that should be obvious to anyone objective that PvPs. They more alleviate rather than address what I believe are the root issues plaguing PvP balance, but I could get behind most of them.

I'm not quite sure why you believe Templar Sweeps, an AOE, should be dodgeable though. AoEs are not intended to be dodged. As it is, people simple just have to walk away from the templar to avoid it since it renders the caster immobile. Since it is hard to actually hit people with this ability and making it dodgeable would mean the main templar attack abilities (flare, RD, sweeps) would require ideal circumstances to actually hit people.

Joy, its just cause not all aoe's are undodgeable. Sweeps should be dodgeable, same as jabs are currently. I think you should at least have some measurable accountability, on magplar hands, of how to apply the dark flare heal debuff, wildly flinging into a group without a chance to miss on the debuff is a bit shaky. I am not opposed to it having an instant/near instant cast time however, or a crystal frag like proc chance. But sweeps, Dark flare debuff, and radiant as undodgeable should go imo. Then again, these are all just my opinions.

I am very accountable thank you. I never said the the a dark flare miss should apply the debuff. In fact I think it's dumb that it does.

It's fine that you think every single templar skill in the game should keep their awkward cast mechanics and be dodgeable. There is zero chance the Wrobel will make such a change so it's not like I am worried that I will wake up tomorrow and read that in a patch notes. You have decided to deem one particular class's AoE attack ought to be dodgable and not Sap essence, steel tornado, Draw essence, bombard, etc, and it's a legit question to ask why.

I can't use sap or steel tornado or bombard or draw essence as my spam dps ability to kill you either. Advocate reducing sweeps' damage to their level, and your argument would hold up. Sweeps being undodgeable is hardly a significant issue in the larger picture of PvP, but Rhage is right that it stands out among class dps abilities simply for this reason.

I see. My argument would "hold up" if we lower sweeps damage to that of Sap or Deep Breath, even though the later two hit things in a 180 degree circle, allow the caster unimpeded movement, the ability to block-cast, and an instant-cast which guaranteed 100% of that damage. Jabs also stands out among class DPS abilities in that the target can simply move to the side or backward and completely avoid the attack.

So keep the worst aspects of the ability (locking the templar into place, multiple attacks, and hitting only the immediate frontal arc), while reducing the damage to that of skills that do not have these disadvantages. Go ahead and keep telling others that their arguments don't "hold up."

You really do live in a bubble where Templars are victimized, performing horribly, and in dire need of buffs aren't you?

Joy is right though. Can't block cast jabs like the other abilities with a 360 radius. I'm surprised I don't see more sap tanks these days since heavy armor tanks are all the rage now. I may bring mine back from years past to see how it performs with black rose.

Block casting sap or deep breath or steel tornado outside of execute range is not a threat though. You ignore those types of builds. Sweeps may be a conal channel, but that's its drawback for having so much more damage and comparable healing despite still being undodgeable. Magplars merely need to point it in the direction of the enemy, and there's no more thought to it. That said, I think Joy latching onto this tiny detail of the post is derailing the thread... Sweeps is by no means distorting PvP like some other imbalanced are.

As for sap tanks, yea they're really strong right now, except that they are highly susceptible to heal debuffs like Fasalla's. Recall that the Magplar tanks that you see everywhere are immune to debuffs due to their purge. Nightblades have to run the vastly inferior and costly Purge skill to access a cleanse. One good heal debuff, and they go downhill quickly. If the enemy group doesn't debuff though, a properly built one is really hard to take down.

I agree with your assessment but a tank build running puncturing sweep is not a threat really either and they are open to hard cc while channeling it. I do love the purge of templar. I would totally support a buff to the efficient purge, either cost reduction or more effect removal. Heavy armor templar do not have endless magicka like a light armor one though, and if they get lazy casting their purge then RIP. That's a good way to tell how skilled the templar tank is, how they manage resources and keep debuffs off. That said, best way to defeat one is lethal arrow spam so they have to keep purging and burning their magicka or die to the debuffs just like your other examples.

Side note, I think a good way to tell how well someone is performing 1v1 vs in a small group would to bring back the animation to breath of life that made those line healing lines sort of like mutagen, so you would see if that tank is receiving heals from somewhere or not that is making them so tanky. It also made it really easy to identify healers back in the day lol.

In regards to dodge roll-able or not, there is never a time I am not snared by something on a templar using sweeps. A dodge roll gives more distance than channeling sweeps while snared by something, so it's easy to get away from. This is just more of the QQ about anything hitting through dodge roll from people who favor that as their defensive mechanism in this game. Bring back undodgeable flame flash!

Edit: I meant to edit my post not quote, forum noob. 0/10.

Brynmere · August 2016

I would love to see to see these kind of adjustment to skills. Instead we always get big sweeping changes that affect entire builds because of racial passives, armor sets and skills changing all at the same time. This I think would make the game less stagnant and pvp a bit more exciting on a frequent basis.

Nice ideas Rhage.

Maztiax · August 2016

0

KenaPKK wrote: »

SourishWhale wrote: »

Maztiax wrote: »

Imagine if ESO was run by PvP forum warriors... *shudders*

Was thinking the same thing... I love Pvp, but my first thoughts on reading this thread was...

What about PVE?

Reduce health of mobs accordingly.

Who the *** cares? This "what about PvE" bull*** has got to stop. You balance mixed games around PvP first because you can't control players, and then you balance PvE mobs and encounters accordingly. In the end, everything is balanced, and everyone is happy. This mixed priority bs is only making the game more imbalanced over time.

Who cares? The PvErs care. Unfortunately for all of you, PvE is pretty much running the show right now. Zenimax has all but abandoned PvP (like, seriously, they're not even going to talk about battlegrounds until next year) and is catering to casual players with jobs, families, school, social lives, etc. instead of the hardcore 8-hour-a-day PvPers. This is what's making Zenimax money, so are you really surprised they are balancing with PvE as a priority?

This is why I find it pretty difficult to troll PvErs. It's hard to troll people who are actually happy with the state of the game. PvPers on the other hand...

LeifErickson · August 2016

Maztiax wrote: »

0

KenaPKK wrote: »

SourishWhale wrote: »

Maztiax wrote: »

Imagine if ESO was run by PvP forum warriors... *shudders*

Was thinking the same thing... I love Pvp, but my first thoughts on reading this thread was...

What about PVE?

Reduce health of mobs accordingly.

Who the *** cares? This "what about PvE" bull*** has got to stop. You balance mixed games around PvP first because you can't control players, and then you balance PvE mobs and encounters accordingly. In the end, everything is balanced, and everyone is happy. This mixed priority bs is only making the game more imbalanced over time.

Who cares? The PvErs care. Unfortunately for all of you, PvE is pretty much running the show right now. Zenimax has all but abandoned PvP (like, seriously, they're not even going to talk about battlegrounds until next year) and is catering to casual players with jobs, families, school, social lives, etc. instead of the hardcore 8-hour-a-day PvPers. This is what's making Zenimax money, so are you really surprised they are balancing with PvE as a priority?

This is why I find it pretty difficult to troll PvErs. It's hard to troll people who are actually happy with the state of the game. PvPers on the other hand...

You mean to tell me that pvers like to do the same content over and over again? Especially considering almost all the content in pve is stupid easy. And the content that isn't easy never changes so if you beat it once it's not going to be harder the second time.

Maztiax · August 2016

LeifErickson wrote: »

You mean to tell me that pvers like to do the same content over and over again?

Yes.

Magus · August 2016

LeifErickson wrote: »

Maztiax wrote: »

0

KenaPKK wrote: »

SourishWhale wrote: »

Maztiax wrote: »

Imagine if ESO was run by PvP forum warriors... *shudders*

Was thinking the same thing... I love Pvp, but my first thoughts on reading this thread was...

What about PVE?

Reduce health of mobs accordingly.

Who the *** cares? This "what about PvE" bull*** has got to stop. You balance mixed games around PvP first because you can't control players, and then you balance PvE mobs and encounters accordingly. In the end, everything is balanced, and everyone is happy. This mixed priority bs is only making the game more imbalanced over time.

Who cares? The PvErs care. Unfortunately for all of you, PvE is pretty much running the show right now. Zenimax has all but abandoned PvP (like, seriously, they're not even going to talk about battlegrounds until next year) and is catering to casual players with jobs, families, school, social lives, etc. instead of the hardcore 8-hour-a-day PvPers. This is what's making Zenimax money, so are you really surprised they are balancing with PvE as a priority?

This is why I find it pretty difficult to troll PvErs. It's hard to troll people who are actually happy with the state of the game. PvPers on the other hand...

You mean to tell me that pvers like to do the same content over and over again? Especially considering almost all the content in pve is stupid easy. And the content that isn't easy never changes so if you beat it once it's not going to be harder the second time.

Balancing around PVP should be the priority. It is easy to adjust the stat values/amount of mobs and bosses accordingly. That said, yes there are a ton of casuals out there that play this game only on weekends and still struggle with gold key pledges, who don't understand game mechanics or builds. There is a huge knowledge gap in this game and it's not easy to overcome it if you don't do any research outside of game tips provided by the game. Yes, there isn't much skill involved anymore but you still need to understand the core game mechanics and if your opponents don't, they end up in highlight videos.

Maztiax · August 2016

Magus wrote: »

Balancing around PVP should be the priority.

That's not making Zenimax money, though.

Magus · August 2016

Maztiax wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Balancing around PVP should be the priority.

That's not making Zenimax money, though.

You are correct, and it would require the people making these balance changes actually PVP in the production environment regularly, which they currently don't do nor do they understand the "meta's" or FOTM and broken things that we regularly discuss here. I don't really blame them, if I worked at ZOS, I probably would not go home and then play ESO when I got home from work. "How was work today honey?" "It was work and I immediately want to forget about it"

Ara_Valleria · August 2016

Why are we trying to derail this thread by talking about Zenimax and their priorities/business model/favorite child ?

Please get back on topic and discuss about the tweaks proposed by OP.

Magus · August 2016

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

Why are we trying to derail this thread by talking about Zenimax and their priorities/business model/favorite child ?

Please get back on topic and discuss about the tweaks proposed by OP.

Decent suggestions. Can live with most of them and have suggested very similar changes in the past.

My responses embedded in the quote with lines with == indicating my response

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Disclaimer: not trying to kill anyone's class. Just trying to tone us down a little, a little more toning on stam.. A little buffing in magicka areas.

The heavy weapons passive should only work for two handed abilities.
== Yes, agreed, this should be considered a bug.

Instead of spell pen, light armor should give 6% spell damage boost.
== Small nerf, magicka damage mostly not out of control, but sure.

Medium armor passive should be reduced to 6%.
== Small nerf, sure

DBoS needs its dot removed and potentially a cost equal to ferocious leap.
If you wanna keep the dot, give it to flawless dawnbreaker.
== 100% agree, DBoS is absurdly overperforming with the DoT

Shuffle needs its snare immunity removed. If it's gonna give 20% dodge chance.. It's gotta drop to 10% after 5--6 seconds and function like immoveable.
== Yes, I suggested this to be a jerk before but combined with minor and major snare system, yes good change. Without changing to minor/major snare system, no don't touch it.

All snares need to be made major and minor snares where combined cannot stack to 10% more, additive, to major and minor expedition. So.. Snare hard cap.
== Agreed, way too many snares.

NBs need 1 negative effect removed from their several negative effect abilities. If Wrobel wants them to be the down and dirty debuffing class like he mentioned in the last meeting, and you really want to keep all that... Then they have to stop having so many ways to buff themselves on top of all that.
== Incap strike and surprise attack likely suspects here, they do too much for how hard they hit. Lower damage and keep effects, or keep damage where it is and some remove effects.

Fragmented shield, should scale of magicka. Changes that worthless flame thing that used to be a toggle, to something worthwhile. Honestly I would just say a dragon roar, which would function the same as fear.. Give minor main, and increase fire dmg done by like 2-4% reduce the cost of abilities by like 4% too. Eruption damage should scale up to good dmg over time. Cinder storm should have its radius buffed.
== Frag shield would be strong but fine. Flame toggle bad yep. No dragon roar, no more CC abilities needed, have talons and fossilize. One morph of talons gives minor maim. Engulfing flames increases fire damage done already. Yes, magicka costs need to be reduced for like every ability, they are very expensive compared to other classes. Good suggestions to buff cinder storm and eruption.

Give Sorcs 4 more seconds on their shields, scale back the streak cost increase nonsense a little. Lower resources returned by dark deal by 10%
== Caution on streak cost increase change but with gap close mini-stun it's fine. Shield change to 10 secs is fine, they don't last that long anyway in PVP. Nerf to dark deal ambivalent about.

Change radiant a damage scaling to be 20-30% instead of 50. Remove minor protection or minor vitality from restoring focus. Reduce cost of javelin. Remove non dodgeable dark flare trauma, if it's reflected, don't have trauma persist. Make puncturing sweeps dodgeable, remove that snare in ritual stuff. Make damage of retribution scale up more time spent inside, decrease its radius.
== It doesn't really scale that hard at 50%, it's not really worth using until about 39%, so 30% isn't majorly different so okay with this. Restoring focus sure, remove minor vitality. If it doesn't land by dodge or reflected, no trauma agreed. Sweeps don't need to be dodgeable, the snare only affects on the damage morph, extended ritual isn't snaring anymore - might be a bug if it's meant to. No to sweeps being dodgeable. Smaller radius and 1 or .5 sec damage ticks on that morph only would be good, leave the bigger radius on extended ritual.

Mag nb.. I'm sorry.. I don't really know much about you. I know you would be fun and interesting to play one day. But until then I don't know what to say.
== They are sort of okay. Cloak breaks a lot. If I was being mean, say give it the increased cost treatment if spammed but it's fine how it is now. You could remove some of the negative effects from mass hysteria. It's already the best cc in the game, not sure it needs minor maim too.

Double all resistance values, increase resist cap to 65%.
== No complaint here, damage doesn't have cap, mitigation does. Don't see any issue raising that cap.

Lower vigor heals by 6%
== No issue here, it's very strong.

Reduce dodge roll cost reduction in medium armor 4%
== Get's a bit iffy here, with the damage reduction to 6% combined with this and shuffle not an immunity in your suggestions, you are better off just running heavy armor.

Uhhhhhh... I'll come back when I remember the others.
== Okay, me too

zyk · August 2016

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

Why are we trying to derail this thread by talking about Zenimax and their priorities/business model/favorite child ?

Please get back on topic and discuss about the tweaks proposed by OP.

I think because it's actually the core issue. I don't think ZOS devs are idiots. They most likely see the same things we do. The true issue is that they have the impossible task of creating systems for disparate groups from ultra-casual players who want to 'play how they want' to PVE raiders to PVP players of all shapes and sizes. I would guess there are also senior Bethesda designers/execs in the background who might have some say about their treasured IP as well.

I think it is impossible to balance a game for static, scripted 4-12 player PVE instances and also dynamic, open world, large scale AvA -- and the other styles that fit into PVP.

I think the PVP community needs to demand that PVP be given its own design lead who has the authority to adjust/exclude/add abiilities according to only PVP balance.

I agree with most of your previous post, but the OP is a bit.. Arbitrary with no methodology behind suggestions.

Ara_Valleria · August 2016

zyk wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

Why are we trying to derail this thread by talking about Zenimax and their priorities/business model/favorite child ?

Please get back on topic and discuss about the tweaks proposed by OP.

I think because it's actually the core issue. I don't think ZOS devs are idiots. They most likely see the same things we do. The true issue is that they have the impossible task of creating systems for disparate groups from ultra-casual players who want to 'play how they want' to PVE raiders to PVP players of all shapes and sizes. I would guess there are also senior Bethesda designers/execs in the background who might have some say about their treasured IP as well.

I think it is impossible to balance a game for static, scripted 4-12 player PVE instances and also dynamic, open world, large scale AvA -- and the other styles that fit into PVP.

I think the PVP community needs to demand that PVP be given its own design lead who has the authority to adjust/exclude/add abiilities according to only PVP balance.

I agree with most of your previous post, but the OP is a bit.. Arbitrary with no methodology behind suggestions.

Agreed.
But here is the thing, no matter how much we as a community request/demand for such a lead or focus on the pvp environment, it won't happen unless ZOS finds evidence that pvp can be profitable.

People have been flooding the forums with lots of reasonable ideas to revitalize abilities or balance over performing ones. But the response from ZOS is always zero to minimal. When they do respond with a change its usually either some thing the player base never asked for or borderline useless or overpowered or riddled with cancerous bugs.

What I'm trying to say is that, the best we can do is just suggest improvements. Because no matter how much we yell at ZOS to change their priorities or the way they manage themselves, they will never change unless they find it profitable.

And the current path/strategy is very profitable for them else they wouldn't be following it since, just like you said, ZOS devs aren't idiots.

Vaoh · August 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but wtf is this

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Double all resistance values, increase resist cap to 65%.

Are you nuts?? Tanks are crazy op already.

There is no way to tank on a magplar. Your only option is to stand there and die to WB spam.

Please bring Blinding Flashes back :'(

You're kidding, right? Right...? must be a

... it's the only way...

Vaoh · August 2016

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

I'm sorry but giving DK's more CC abilities like fear or Knockback or some other form of hard unblockable CC will be a huge mistake.
Main Reasons :
Stam dks are already super effective.

Doesn't solve the core issue of Magicka dks. (GDB)

DKs are already one of the best for group play, in terms of AoE, CC and debuff.

General Reasons :
Fear CC or hard CC in general, has break free issues which ZoS has failed to solve for a long time. Introducing more CC doesn't help.

Fear is unique to NB like Wings are to DKs, Streak is to Sorc and Bol is to Templar. Giving ones unique ability to another will dilute class identity and ruin whatever balance is left in this game.

As for the disparity between Stamina and Magicka ~
A lot needs to be changed to achieve balance between the two.
The fact that as a stam build you can achieve double or triple the dmg [with ease] than that of a mag build, while having access to dot heal, burst heal, major mending, major vitality, snare immunity and dodge chance; is truly the Embodiment of Imbalance. IMO, to achieve proper balance between magikca and stamina builds, we need to not only equalize damage and sustain but also critically assess the buffs and defensive capabilities available to both.

Glad to see that someone gets it! What you wrote pretty much covers a significant portion of the current class spec imbalances of PvP.

I bet that hundreds of the really biased Stamina players cringed reading that as well

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

I'm sorry but giving DK's more CC abilities like fear or Knockback or some other form of hard unblockable CC will be a huge mistake.
Main Reasons :
Stam dks are already super effective.

Doesn't solve the core issue of Magicka dks. (GDB)

DKs are already one of the best for group play, in terms of AoE, CC and debuff.

General Reasons :
Fear CC or hard CC in general, has break free issues which ZoS has failed to solve for a long time. Introducing more CC doesn't help.

Fear is unique to NB like Wings are to DKs, Streak is to Sorc and Bol is to Templar. Giving ones unique ability to another will dilute class identity and ruin whatever balance is left in this game.

As for the disparity between Stamina and Magicka ~
A lot needs to be changed to achieve balance between the two.
The fact that as a stam build you can achieve double or triple the dmg [with ease] than that of a mag build, while having access to dot heal, burst heal, major mending, major vitality, snare immunity and dodge chance; is truly the Embodiment of Imbalance. IMO, to achieve proper balance between magikca and stamina builds, we need to not only equalize damage and sustain but also critically assess the buffs and defensive capabilities available to both.

Glad to see that someone gets it! What you wrote pretty much covers a significant portion of the current class spec imbalances of PvP.

I bet that hundreds of the really biased Stamina players cringed reading that as well

As a stam DK player, I'm 100% in favor of Mag DK getting buffed, even if it has an adverse affect on my main. As long as the class is defined by the stam/magic divide, it will be impossible to address many of the lost synergies of the class as a whole. Dragonblood really just needs to be blown up and have it's effects be divided into Scales, Inhale, and Obsidian Shield. Have inhale grant the coagulated blood buff of minor vitality, add Major endurance to Dragonfire Scales (most stam builds will already get it from pots), and give Obisidian Shield a morph that heals for 20-30% on cast (scaling to max magic) and an additional burst once the shield ends or is destroyed. This will make room for an entirely new skill for DKs. Maybe a skill that causes all applied Dots to automatically and instantly fire off a large percentage of their full damage—a detonation that sets off your flame dots to explode, allowing them to be reapplied again.

Kilandros · August 2016

So basically nerf all the skills that can kill perma dodge stam chars. Kay.

Manoekin · August 2016

I like the idea of a pushback ability for DK and think the exhale part of inhale would be a good spot for it. It wouldn't be happening often or spammable that way.

The reason why sweeps isn't dodgeable is because it is a magicka AOE, and those are not dodgeable like stamina AOE's. This is also the reason why dark flare trauma goes through dodge/reflect. The debuff is an AOE that is for whatever reason separate from the damage. The debuff thing is nonsense honestly and should be changed.

Increasing dodge roll cost isn't going to accomplish much unless you look at the root cause. It costs nothing for a stam user because dodge roll counts as a "stamina ability" and thus double dips into cost reduction from regular ability cost reduction, and cost reductions that specifically target dodge roll. IMO, if you want dodge roll to cost less you should have to spec into it.

Remove as many snares from the game as possible. Extended ritual is so very good without the snare, and Retribution should scale up in damage as others have said imo.

Make armor skills (harness and those) require 5 pieces of that armor type equipped.

Dawnbreaker is really just ***. Let it fulfill its intended purpose along with that of its skill line. I would slightly increase the radius of meteor too and make it a ground cast. Enough with brain dead combat where we just press two buttons and hope our opponents die instantly.

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2016

Kilandros wrote: »

So basically nerf all the skills that can kill perma dodge stam chars. Kay.

When did I say that? I was talking about in addition to what the skills already do.

Burning_Talons · August 2016

You forgot #FixDragonBlood

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Burning_Talons wrote: »

You forgot #FixDragonBlood

Haha unfortunately I've been in one too many meetings with ZoS to know that they aren't particularly keen on fixing dragons blood.

Kilandros · August 2016

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So basically nerf all the skills that can kill perma dodge stam chars. Kay.

When did I say that? I was talking about in addition to what the skills already do.

Wasn't talking to you

Reinhard72 · August 2016

It's simple.
Nerf perma dodge rollin ( with max Ressource lost ) , Nerf 60k HP Perm Blocking Tanks and last....nerf the Heal

Ara_Valleria · August 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Burning_Talons wrote: »

You forgot #FixDragonBlood

Haha unfortunately I've been in one too many meetings with ZoS to know that they aren't particularly keen on fixing dragons blood.

If ZOS has no intention of fixing what irrefutably is the fundamental issue with (PvP) mDK, then imo its a waste of time and energy talking about "fixing" mDK.

No amount of knockback, stun, fear or dmg buff will ever truly fix mDK.

This whole situation is like going to a doctor to treat a curable strain of blood cancer but the doctor gives you bionic hands instead. You don't have much energy to lift your arms or live for long but HEYY atleast you can knockout people with your new cyborg hands !! Woo !!

#DR.ZOSEinTheHaus

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Burning_Talons wrote: »

You forgot #FixDragonBlood

Haha unfortunately I've been in one too many meetings with ZoS to know that they aren't particularly keen on fixing dragons blood.

If ZOS has no intention of fixing what irrefutable is the fundamental issue with (PvP) mDK, then imo its a waste of time and energy talking about "fixing" mDK.

No amount of knockback, stun, fear or dmg buff will ever truly fix mDK.

This whole situation is like going to a doctor to treat a curable strain of blood cancer but the doctor gives you bionic hands instead. You don't have much energy to lift your arms or live for long but HEYY atleast you can knockout people with your new cyborg hands !! Woo !!

#DR.ZOSEinTheHaus

Yea.. But that's basically been their MO since, always.