Medium armor warriors will notice more DPS with 7 medium armor. The extra weapon crit is pretty good.
Light armor will see higher DPS with 5/1/1. The extra recovery and reduce cost is minor, with abilities like syphon spirit and ele drain being used by support magicka will not be a problem.
By the way light armor passives that increase with the amount of pieces worn are only recovery, reduced cost, and spell resistance. Not spell critical.
Spell critical is a 5 piece buff.

magnusthorek wrote: »

Since staff seem to love duplicated threads and prefer to remove content rather than split into new topics, I'll create manually to keep going the discussion started in a very old topic

For current endgame, harder dungeons and trials, Undaunted Mettle still better than more Armor pieces?

- We don't have Nirnhoned anymore, so our, as Magicka user, Spell Penetration was reduced. Using two more light armor will give us some more.

- Orzorga's Red Frothgar is an amazing drink for Magicka regeneration, but it comes to the cost of ~4k or magicka pool, which directly translates into DPS loss (not considering the upcoming Festival's food, just to be clear).

And with two more light armor pieces you can have something around 900 magicka regeneration. If a vampire Altmer, you cross the 1k barrier and you almost don't need to do light/heavy attacks because you're with a PUG healer that don't have any magicka sustain support

- If you use armor sets like Scathing Mage that benefits from Spell Critical, having more light armor pieces will give you more and thus, increasing the chance of it t proc.

- If you prefer TBS instead, having more armor pieces, regardless the type, will, for example, increase the overall damage potentially caused by The Shadow when combined with The Thief because you'll have more critical chance sue more armor pieces.

- For stamina players, wearing more medium armor gives more critical chance ans we all know they love hitting once and hard XD

This list can go on and on and on so, is Undaunted Mettle really that better?

I am speaking strictly in a PvE capacity, I don't care about PvP and feel that it is irrelevant to my thought process

Undaunted Mettle is always better for Magicka DPS as far as I'm concerned. Survivability and Damage are the name of the game. I will always prefer having 42k magicka to having a little more spell penetration (which I don't need since I'm using Sharpened and my groups are always using debuffs).

Regeneration is absolutely unimportant for the average Magicka DPS in PvE content. There are several ways to continue to regenerate your magicka in Veteran content with groups. When I'm solo I can rely on Maelstrom Resto if I need it but in most cases I do enough damage that I'm out of combat and regenerating.

Stamina benefit from 7 Medium, there's no ignoring that.

In Maelstrom Arena I find the idea of running anything other than 5/1/1 to be insane. I would rather always know I have 38k magicka and 18k health than not. I complete it weekly for fun and would prefer not to learn any new methods.

Don't need Nirnhoned, Sharpened does the work. We have Alkosh, Aether, Pierce Armor, Elemental Drain, and a host of other things that overall lower the resistances of mobs.

Magicka Healers might benefit from 7 light armor, I don't know and don't really think about it much. My only healer is a DK and I haven't finished leveling him.

magnusthorek wrote: »

We don't have Nirnhoned anymore, so our, as Magicka user, Spell Penetration was reduced. Using two more light armor will give us some more.

That is incorrect on both counts. The revamped Sharpened now grants far more spell penetration than the old Nirnhoned. The old traits were 18% (Nirn) or 14% (Sharpened) of a target's resistance, and for PvE bosses that have 18K resistance, that is a mere 3240 penetration for Nirnhoned.

Second, the spell penetration from Concentration is a flat number that you get when you have 5 pieces and does not scale higher if you have more.

magnusthorek wrote: »

If you use armor sets like Scathing Mage that benefits from Spell Critical, having more light armor pieces will give you more and thus, increasing the chance of it t proc.

This, too, is incorrect. Like Concentration, the spell critical from Prodigy is a flat 10% as long as you have 5 pieces of light armor. It does not scale higher with more.

Going from 5L to 7L gives you better sustain and spell resistance. In contrast, 5/1/1 gives you more physical resistance, 4% max stamina, 4% max magicka, 6% max health (this includes an addition 2% from Juggernaut), and the slightly useful medium and heavy armor passives (notably, Athletics and Constitution).

With group sustain buffs, heavy attacks, and potions, you can run magicka/health food (never use Orzorga as a PvE DPS) and sustain fine with 5L. You get more max magicka with 5/1/1, directly from the extra 4% max magicka and indirectly from the extra 6% max health (which makes it easier for you to hit a target health level while keeping all your enchants, jewelry, and attributes in magicka).

5/1/1 is indisputably superior for magicka DPS.

For stamina, the equation changes because the critical chance is not a flat bonus that is unlocked after 5 pieces. Instead, medium armor's critical bonus scales with the number of pieces that you have, at the rate of 1.5% per piece of medium armor.

Going from 5M to 7M gives you better sustain and 3% extra crit chance. For a stamina user wearing TBS with Thief/Shadow, using Trap Beast, and with 10% critical damage in champion points, 3% extra crit will translate into 2.7% (stamsorc, stamdk) or 3% (stamblade, stamplar) extra DPS. This bonus becomes larger with good War Horn uptime. In contrast, 4% extra stamina will translate into roughly 2% extra DPS.

Alternatively, people can go 6M/1H as a compromise. They lose 1.5% crit chance, but gain 2% extra stamina and 4% extra health. The DPS loss compared to 7M is smaller (less than 1%), and the extra 4% health does add a margin of comfort.

You should not go 5/1/1 as stamina, because the light armor passives are useless to you. Magicka users can't completely ignore stamina because they need to block, dodge, and blockcast. But stamina users can completely ignore magicka, as there are very few magicka-based utility abilities that stamina users need, and it's quite easy to sustain them even with no light armor bonuses.

To the person who said that they like 5/1/1 on a stamdk because Earthen Heart abilities can return stamina, this is a bad tradeoff: the loss of direct stam sustain from fewer medium piece is much larger than the small amount of indirect stam sustain that you get from being able to cast Earthen Heart abilities slightly more often.

TL;DR: Magicka DPS is maximized with 5L/1H/1M. Stamina DPS is maximized with 7M, though 6M/1H is a reasonable tradeoff of a slight DPS and sustain loss in exchange for a little better survivability. 5M/1H/1L makes no sense at all for a stamina DPS.

magnusthorek wrote: »

I don't know what math you're doing but the new Sharpened is a flat value of 2580, which is a little bit more than 14% of 18k.

Erm, that's only for a 1H weapon, which has half the penetration. For 2-handed weapons such as staves, bows, and 2-handers, you get the full value of 5K+ penetration. If you are dual-wielding two 1H weapons, you'll have the full amount as well.

The same was true with the old Sharpened/Nirnhoned: it was 14/18% on staves, bows, and 2-handers, and 7/9% on 1H weapons.

magnusthorek wrote: »

I did the pledge with a healer that had absolutely nothing to magicka sustain! No Siphon Spirit, no Elemental Drain, no Mystic Orbs

A lot of players run their own ele drain if they're doing dungeons. I expect the healer to run those only in trials. If I'm running a dungeon as a DPS on my magdk, for example, I'll often run my own ele.

magnusthorek wrote: »

Right now, I finished a normal Sanctum Ophidia run with, apparently, Lucian Alliance and, again, not even one support for magicka!

If I'm not mistaken, that's a trade guild. It's basically a PUG farm run of a normal trial. I don't expect there to be coordination or proper buffs/debuffs in a run like that. Nor do you need it. In runs like that, I just use trash magicka pots (no spell power buffs) and just heavy-attack if I run low because it just doesn't matter. For serious trials, where your DPS output does matter, there should also be much better coordination of buffs, sustain, etc.

Asata wrote: »

I don't see much of any point to do 5/1/1 at this point. It's not worth the loss of the bonuses for what it gives. Keep in mind that you can still get the bonus (albeit less) even with 7 pieces.

Do you mean you still get a bonus from mettle even with 7 pieces (not 5,1,1)?

If that's true I never knew this. Can someone confirm?

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Yep 2%

Sweet! thanks

I said 1.5-1.8, because I do always run trap beast and I do usually run shadow, but i don't put a lot of point in precise strikes, because my math says it's no more valuable than Mighty, Blessed, or Thaumaturge for my DK most of the time. Since I go between PVE and
PVP, Blessed is really my only way to improve healing, so I always put a bit there, 100 in mighty, around 37 in Thauma, and put around 10 in Precise strikes, unless (as currently) I'm experimenting with hybrid builds and unusual sets.

Does Archer's Mind boost the modifier by a flat amount or does it increase multiplicatively, btw?

code65536 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I said 1.5-1.8, because I do always run trap beast and I do usually run shadow, but i don't put a lot of point in precise strikes

For a DK with Shadow, Trap, and 0 points in Precise Strikes, you'll have a CHD of 0.8 (0.5 base + 0.18 Shadow + 0.12 Trap). That's a 2.4% increase in DPS from 3% extra crit chance (3% * 0.8 CHD).

I have not tested Archer's Mind, so I don't know. Most sources of CHD are additive flat bonuses, with War Horn being the one and only multiplicative exception, so if I had to guess, I would say additive flat bonus.

Yeah, I usually run it, but I'm running with the warrior because I'm using Pelinal's. I might test Pelinal's with the shadow and thief too though since all three improve multiple stats with the build. Think I might test Archer's mind with my stam sorc though. Seems ideal since they lack CHD bonus.

pecheckler wrote: »

it's worth it for imperials due to stacking with racial passives especially for tanks

IMHO, tanks should always run 5/1/1, regardless of race.

Shadesofkin wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

it's worth it for imperials due to stacking with racial passives especially for tanks

IMHO, tanks should always run 5/1/1, regardless of race.

I tend to disagree, but I can see the logic in running 5/1/1.

I run 7h with 5 Black Rose so that the total amount of my Con bonus is maximized. But that's a personal preference.

Well, Black Rose is a bit of an exception--if you're running that set, then yes, 7H would make sense. Black Rose doesn't provide any utility to the group, though, so if you can sustain your resources without it, you're better of with sets like Tava, Ebon, Alkosh, etc. I haven't had any resource issues in my Tava/Ebon/BS setup, so Black Rose was never something I had considered.

Stam dos 7 medium is most optimal. Magic use 5-1-1 unless you're running 2 dropped sets like aether and worm or spc that only come in light

Dracane wrote: »

For sustain, 7 light armor is better than 5 light armor and 1-1
For protection, 7 heavy armor is better than 5 heavy and 1-1
Medium armor depends on your setup. In PvE, 7 medium can be better.

Most people prefer 5-1-1 though, because they only care for what is on their character sheet. Nothing else matters to them.

In PVE, you don't need the extra sustain of 7 light because you have people running support for that. 5-1-1 simply brings more damage to the table for magicka, it's not even about the character sheet it's about sheer facts in this regard.

Mettle is better for LA as the DPS advantage caps at 5 pieces but ME and HE passives for damage sustain ect get better with more than 5 pieces making this passive not as good for them...