How would you fix the game imbalance between Stamina and Magicka?

Robbmrp · August 2016

For me, I would make all skills do the same amount of damage once they are at max level. This way it would require more player skill and rotation to determine the win instead of whom ever can stack the most damage with a burst build. Personally I don't like these builds as I would rather have a fight with someone, not a lopsided win. To me, there's no fun in one hit and your done...

How would you balance them?

Pallio · August 2016

The pendulum will swing back to magic eventually, play stam now and wait for it to go back..

Asmael · August 2016

I'd probably make gear less relevant. Everything plays a role into your efficiency: gear, personal experience and reflexes, knowledges of game mechanics, rotation, group buffs, debuffs affected... Turns out gear make or break most fights, see Malubeth in PvP, Maelstrom 1h weapons and bow in PvE, first step being to reduce the difference between different gear quality levels, so that you can still be competitive while using purple weapons for example.

I'd also make healing scale based only on max stamina / magicka, and damage only on weapon damage / spell power (instead of both as we currently have right now) as a first rebalancing step, that way I can do a fine tuning of both separately, without affecting each other. This would also be a step forward in removing Battle Spirit from PvP.

EDIT: Added @Yolokin_Swagonborn 's post on the matter in the spoiler below.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

How to fix Damage in PvP by moving forward instead of backward.
The reason there is so much lack of diversity is a combination of the champion system, and the fact that your resource pools (magicka and stamina) have such a HUGE effect on your damage, shields, and heals. Battle spirit effectively makes certain abilities useless in PvP because after they get halved, they are worth next to nothing. Shielded assault is a good example. So people focus their builds around heavy hitting skills, heals and shields that are still strong even after the 50% nerf. Removing battle spirit would go a long way in balancing out damage but then certain abilities would hit too hard due to no soft caps, so how do we do it?

What happens if we reduce, remove, or cap the effect Stamina and Magicka Pools have on tooltip damage and then also remove battle spirit?

Warning: Quick and dirty estimations with fudge-factor coefficients to simplify the damage calculation formula. Tested against observed values to be within +/- 10 of the observed tooltip damage. PM me if you want me to show more work.

Test subject: 300CP Redguard Sorcerer on PTS. No CP into Mighty, medium armor passives, sorc passives, or anything that modifies the damage tool-tip other than max stam and weapon damage.

Without any gear, any champion points assigned, and no weapon or weapon damage, we get this:

We will set uppercut 1191 damage as our base level for simplicity. Now lets keep weapon damage at 0 and add stamina. Adding +stam gear (hawks eye, darkstride etc), 64 attribute points into stamina (64*111=7,104 extra stam), 100 CP into green tree (another 3,735 stamina), redguard passive 10% stam, bound armaments 8% stam, and health/stam food (4500 stam).

So with over 42k Stamina, we get a 6.3k tooltip, over 5 times more than the damage we got with only 8k stamina and we have no weapon damage or weapon whatsoever. Note that this still gets halved by battle spirit.

Now lets look at weapon damage holding stamina constant. Removing all extra stam back to the base value (7958) and adding a gold nirnhoned greatsword.

Notice that with 0 weapon damage coming from sets or buffs, your weapon's damage becomes your weapon damage AND spell damage. For example, an iron weapon that has 198 damage will give you 198 weapon damage. Here are a few examples over a range of values.

As you can see, without the battle spirit de-buff, these are decent values for uppercut. Remember that this is without 12% extra weapon damage from agility medium armor passive, without heavy weapons passive 8% and without empower (20%). If you wanted to run a gank build with 4000 base weapon damage (4480 with agility) using all those buffs, a buffed strike would hit for 8206*1.05*1.20=10339 over 10k before armor mitigation.

Now lets put both of these values together. Lets take a typical stam build with about 35k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.
Here is a redguard running food wearing Hundings + agility + masters/malestrom greatsword.

Lets breakdown the tooltip to see where the damage comes from.

With this common setup, more of the tooltip damage is contributed by the stamina pool than the weapon damage.
1191+4050+3864=9105

After battle spirit, the damage would be 9105/2=4553. If we had no battle spirit, and the effect your resource pool was capped at base value, you would have 1191+3864=5055. So the base damage of the skill has a much greater effect on damage (24% instead of 13%).

This would help flatten the range of damage achievable in PvP which will help lesser used skills and also make hybrid builds viable again. Pelenial's Aptitude would be an amazing set with this cap system, no CP, and no battle spirit.

I haven't tested this for shields and heals but I expect similar results. Note that you don't fully remove attributes effect on damage, heals and shields, you just cap it at a certain resource level, for example.
Attributes effect on damage could be capped at base resource pool level (around 7k) to account for no softcap on weapon damage.

Magicka based shields could be capped at around 25k resources to reflect the previous magicka cap

Shields affecting health would be capped at around 35k just like the previous health cap.

You could still stack your attributes past these levels, it just wouldn't affect your damage, shields and heals.

For example, if you stack 45k stamina you still have the benefit of having a huge stamina pool but it doesn't also give you monster damage as well.

Note that this fix isn't enough just by its own. It's is a multiple step solution and the values I gave are only examples. You also have to disable or rework the champion system, and tweak/reduce/cap regen so that skills can't be spammed indefinitely.

I'd rework the champion system to make it matter less by reducing the efficiency of all stars, and free up CP points to allow them to be distributed everywhere (you could then have a lot of damage and no sustain nor tankiness, or you could balance out everything like we currently do to avoid diminishing returns).

Finally, I'd make an extra modifier on abilities so that they behave differently in PvE and PvP.

More build customization
Less reliance on gear, which is an important factor in the stam / magicka imbalance
Rework of CPs making potential imbalances less relevant
Double the TTK in PvE, which is a good thing for most dungeons, trials (especially vet) would require mobs to have less health
Health based abilities become relevant again in PvP

Robbmrp · August 2016

@Asmael Very well thought out. I like those for sure.

Surak73 · August 2016

Most pressing thing to restore balance should be raising up CC immunity after you break free from the risible 5 sec to 15-20 sec. So a magicka player would have at least an opportunity to fight back.

DRXHarbinger · August 2016

Give us our shields back? They got more damage whilst we were stuck with half shields and half healing..... give us more CC or working CC at least. Dizzying swing, into talons, into chains, flawless knockdown whilst having trap beast dumped on you all within 10s is a bit much, not to mention whilst fighting some AP gimp spamming lethal arrow trying to steal what he can from the people who aren't scared to get up close.

Shadesofkin · August 2016

I wouldn't really.

Stamina was such a let down for so long, they can have a spot on Mount Olympus for a while.

Eventually they'll find the ambrosia no longer tastes as sweet and they'll be thrown off by the almighty magicka again.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · August 2016

Simple. Everyone hates all stam builds and magplars right?

Buff magicka DKs, NBs and Sorcs. Add in a stamina negate. There you go. We have "balance" while still leaving room for creativity.

bowmanz607 · August 2016

no champion points and re introduce soft caps.

that said, i think people over exaggerate the disparity. I think have more utility and more build diversity. Also, people forget that it is easier to stack max mag than it is to stack max stam which is also made even more possible because most stam players run drink because of the need for high recovery and mag recovery for mag builds is much less of an issue.

I think the problem with mag builds lies in issues with the class. For instance a mag nb and mag templar do great. Mag sorc and mag dk need some love.

As for a practical solution on what could actually happen outside of my first sentence, it would require a revamp of the desto/resto skill lines. Right now those skill lines do not provide enough for mag users and mag is forced to turn to class skills for almost everything. Additionally, messing around a bit with the mages guild skill line would not hurt.

Minalan · August 2016

First off. Don't 'fix' anything by nerfing Stam. You have half the players in the game happy for a change. Don't ruin that.

First off I'd start with small changes introduced more frequently. Nobody is happy with the brand new game we get every major update.

I'd adjust velidreth set to act more like nereith, adding a timer to the spore bombs.

I'd buff nereith, max magicka one piece and slightly more damage on the lich crystals.

I'd buff hardened ward to 8 seconds. Not everyone has the Lightning reflexes to consistently get more than four and a half seconds out of the shield with the cast time.

I'd fix the fear unbreakable bug.

I'd fix the burst heal bug on the Malubeth set, and probably lower the internal CD on it. It should be a great set, just not 14K every few seconds.

I'd fix the frostflame set to max magicka instead of weapon damage.

I'd start looking at the CP tree, and give magicka something similar to the unchained passive.

I'd probably do something to move healing received and done CP so that you can't stack 100 in both.

The balance isn't BAD as most people think, most of the problems are in the BUGS and the CP tree design.

I would nerf the sharpened trait, it's better than Nirn and precise by a little too much. That or buff Nirnhoned and precise to match it. It's a little too good when everyone has to use it.

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

Get rid of damage multipliers from player attributes . Make champion system equally spell and stamina based for damage . Spell penetration and stamina penetration in separate constellations and continue with everything in same manner . This would also benefit hybrids again if soft caps were instituted .

Solariken · August 2016

Asmael wrote: »

I'd probably make gear less relevant. Everything plays a role into your efficiency: gear, personal experience and reflexes, knowledges of game mechanics, rotation, group buffs, debuffs affected... Turns out gear make or break most fights, see Malubeth in PvP, Maelstrom 1h weapons and bow in PvE, first step being to reduce the difference between different gear quality levels, so that you can still be competitive while using purple weapons for example.

I'd also make healing scale based only on max stamina / magicka, and damage only on weapon damage / spell power (instead of both as we currently have right now) as a first rebalancing step, that way I can do a fine tuning of both separately, without affecting each other. This would also be a step forward in removing Battle Spirit from PvP.

I'd rework the champion system to make it matter less by reducing the efficiency of all stars, and free up CP points to allow them to be distributed everywhere (you could then have a lot of damage and no sustain nor tankiness, or you could balance out everything like we currently do to avoid diminishing returns).

I'd do everything in the above quote from @Asmael and also the following:

Increase the cost of Dawnbreaker to 150 base ultimate and reduce the bonus damage slightly for DBoS (it's a little over the top on damage currently because of how fast it hits and knocks everyone down.

Reduce the duration of Evasion (med armor skill) to 12 seconds and remove Major Evasion but instead have the base morph purge snares and immobilizes on cast and also reduce the cost of dodge roll by X% while active. Elude can increase the duration and roll cost reduction per piece of medium armor equipped. Remove the immunity from Shuffle but have it reduce the duration and efficacy of all snares and immobilizes used against you by 10% per piece of medium armor equipped

RinaldoGandolphi · August 2016

You can't as long as:

1 the champ system exists.
2. Lack of soft caps
3. Presence of stamina based class morphs.

Back in the day you could play whatever you want and be viable. Stamina had 4 weapon lines magic had 2. Most magic skills were class based but this was offset because Stam had 4 weapon lines.

With soft caps Stam users could use class skills and not be gimped thus things were pretty balanced. Each class had a few skills Stam users could use:

Stam Sorc streak and surge, boundless storm

Stam Blade cloak, double take, and shadow image

Stam DK Scales, Volatile Armor, molten weapons, talons

Stamplars blazing shield, blinding flashes, purify, aura

The following skills combined with the skills from the 4 weapon lines made Stam and hybrid builds very good and the balance between Stam and magic was very very good outside the Magic DK but that was a class issue not an issue between magic and Stam.

The champion system, removal of softcaps, and constant badgering of ZOS for Stam morphs of class skills has upset any balance they hope to have and instead have given way to the homogenization of classes and roles....everyone can be their own tank, DPS, and healer all rolled into one.

Simply put ZOS has smashed their own faces in my listening to people who had no idea what they are talking about.

You can't have balance in a game with no limits, and homogenization of classes so everyone can do every role mostly at the same time has ruined that completely.

VMA as a whole is designed around tanky healing DPS. Your gotta be survivable, deal high damage, and heal while doing that damage. VMA would be impossible to complete on a 1.5 toon due to caps, lack of a champion system, and more clearly defined roles from a class standpoint.

Simply put the 3 class identities have basically been tossed with the exception of a few dungeons and trials and replaced with everyone do every role which is the death kneel for any RPG

The lack of viable tradeoffs and clearly designed roles have pigeonholed this game into a corner balance will never even get close under current conditions.

Robbmrp · August 2016

All great ideas! Keep them coming!

bowmanz607 · August 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

You can't as long as:

1 the champ system exists.
2. Lack of soft caps
3. Presence of stamina based class morphs.

Back in the day you could play whatever you want and be viable. Stamina had 4 weapon lines magic had 2. Most magic skills were class based but this was offset because Stam had 4 weapon lines.

With soft caps Stam users could use class skills and not be gimped thus things were pretty balanced. Each class had a few skills Stam users could use:

Stam Sorc streak and surge, boundless storm

Stam Blade cloak, double take, and shadow image

Stam DK Scales, Volatile Armor, molten weapons, talons

Stamplars blazing shield, blinding flashes, purify, aura

The following skills combined with the skills from the 4 weapon lines made Stam and hybrid builds very good and the balance between Stam and magic was very very good outside the Magic DK but that was a class issue not an issue between magic and Stam.

The champion system, removal of softcaps, and constant badgering of ZOS for Stam morphs of class skills has upset any balance they hope to have and instead have given way to the homogenization of classes and roles....everyone can be their own tank, DPS, and healer all rolled into one.

Simply put ZOS has smashed their own faces in my listening to people who had no idea what they are talking about.

You can't have balance in a game with no limits, and homogenization of classes so everyone can do every role mostly at the same time has ruined that completely.

VMA as a whole is designed around tanky healing DPS. Your gotta be survivable, deal high damage, and heal while doing that damage. VMA would be impossible to complete on a 1.5 toon due to caps, lack of a champion system, and more clearly defined roles from a class standpoint.

Simply put the 3 class identities have basically been tossed with the exception of a few dungeons and trials and replaced with everyone do every role which is the death kneel for any RPG

The lack of viable tradeoffs and clearly designed roles have pigeonholed this game into a corner balance will never even get close under current conditions.

agreed. I would add that for a stam blade you could go full hybrid dps attacks with soft caps. I had weapon damage just below cap with spell damage at cap. this also allowed me to run dw/bow setup because I could use Sap and swallow soul for healing. I was using a.bush when it was mag based because it still hit decent and gave empower.

removal of soft caps with cp ruined this game. heck, Azuras is the closet thing to what this game should be like.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2016

I'd make all actions stamina and all non-action magica

From there, I'd split all skills into PvP and PvE types only accessible within PvE or PvP zones

Lastly I'd make major adjustments to armor to allow regen or lesser use of each pool in respects to armor type but not require a certain amount of each armor type to gain such a benefit.

*revamp CP regarding the reduction in cost of Stam and magica as well as the regen.
That's where I'd start. And CP would have a PvP mode and PvE mode with different values.

Balancing isn't really an issue for PvE. It's a PvP concern so step one is separating the two.

Robbmrp · August 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'd make all actions stamina and all non-action magica

From there, I'd split all skills into PvP and PvE types only accessible within PvE or PvP zones

Lastly I'd make major adjustments to armor to allow regen or lesser use of each pool in respects to armor type but not require a certain amount of each armor type to gain such a benefit.

*revamp CP regarding the reduction in cost of Stam and magica as well as the regen.
That's where I'd start. And CP would have a PvP mode and PvE mode with different values.

Balancing isn't really an issue for PvE. It's a PvP concern so step one is separating the two.

Great point and ideas as well.

Jar_Ek · August 2016

I would make stamina and magicka resources with no effect on damage output.
I would make sets and set bonuses less important.
I would split staves into 3 distinct skill lines.
I would rewrite the CP perks completely
I would rethink shields completely.

PurifedBladez · August 2016

Stam since birth ***.

idk · August 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Give us our shields back? They got more damage whilst we were stuck with half shields and half healing..... give us more CC or working CC at least. Dizzying swing, into talons, into chains, flawless knockdown whilst having trap beast dumped on you all within 10s is a bit much, not to mention whilst fighting some AP gimp spamming lethal arrow trying to steal what he can from the people who aren't scared to get up close.

@DRXHarbinger

Magika shields are stronger than any stamina shield. All that changed is the duration as made equal to the duration of stam shields.

Basically, magika shields are still better than stam shields anyway one slices it.

LeDave · August 2016

Don't nerf anything, just buff everything to balance out the "OP"(Anything).

MaxwellC · August 2016

Healing and shields based off of Max Health/recovery.

GG

cschwingeb14_ESO · August 2016

Make the destro staff passive that gives 10% spell penetration to destro staff attacks affect all attacks. Make it 20% to match stamina passives

Up the dodge roll cost penalty to 50%

Random minor balance changes designed to get useless skills more usable. Shields assault is a great example

Then wait to see how that works out

Defilted · August 2016

Do not remember who posted this thread/idea. A big balance step for PVP would be to remove stamina as the sprint/break free/tumble atribute and add a third another a tribute for this purpose or health. This would free up magicka classes to compete more easily.

Another idea would just make magika the break free atribute if you choose the new "make magicka my break free/Sprint/tumble atribute" passive available to everyone.

Bisenberger96 · August 2016

Spell resistance shredding sets.

Bouldercleave · August 2016

Eliminate PvP?

That was a joke by the way...

kojou · August 2016

My guess is that ZOS is going to look at tweaking numbers of individual skills and easy changes to various statistics, so we can pretty much forget about any changes to balance that would be significant development efforts.

That said, if I could have whatever change I wanted I would balance Magicka and Stamina by removing Stamina as an offensive resource altogether.

All skills would cost Magicka, and there would only be one type of Crit and damage. We would still have different damage types (e.g. Physical, Poison, Magick, Elemental), but only one set of values to govern damage done.

There are a lot of other changes to armor bonuses and values to passives that would have to be done along with this, but since there is a snowballs chance in a daedroth's mouth it would be done anyway I am not going to bother writing all necessary elaborations, but this is going to be the only real way to achieve anything close to balance.

As for a change that I think ZOS *could* do that would make things interesting for magicka builds would be to have magicka class skills be affected by the type of staff the player is holding. For example, if I am holding a flame staff then funnel health will do flame damage, or an ice staff, ice damage respectively and have those class skills synergize with the destruction staff passives. That would allow us to actually create real elemental builds and give us a reason to use something other than two swords or a flame staff.

That said... I have plenty of max level stamina characters that I will continue to use until the pendulum swings back to Magicka.

QuebraRegra · August 2016

softcaps!

Ghettokid · August 2016

Defilted wrote: »

Do not remember who posted this thread/idea. A big balance step for PVP would be to remove stamina as the sprint/break free/tumble atribute and add a third another a tribute for this purpose or health. This would free up magicka classes to compete more easily.

Another idea would just make magika the break free atribute if you choose the new "make magicka my break free/Sprint/tumble atribute" passive available to everyone.

That doesnt sound good at all. Of course sprinting and dodging cost only stamina. Otherwise it wouldnt make any sense.

bimbo · August 2016

what people don't understand is magicka are ranged and stam are melee.

melee = hard = should get higher dps than ranged.

if you are asking magicka to do the same number as stam, then buff the hell of melee resistances and hp.

Drakoleon · August 2016

Zeni should hire someone who knows what he's doing