How would you fix the game imbalance between Stamina and Magicka?

Ffastyl

The abilities were designed for a range of numbers currently long surpassed. Taking into account the ~10x multiplier on numbers from Update 6, the average competitive player has twice the stats of such players a year ago. ~200 weapon damage was endgame in 1.5, or ~2000 now. A DPS currently has ~4000 weapon damage either with or without the aid of buffs. There is also an inherent flaw in the current system that arose with the power creep: damage and healing derived from the same stats.

What would I do?

Add progressive soft caps to all stats and adjust how two stats in particular interact with the game at large (spell and weapon damage).

Spell and Weapon Damage

Since I mentioned spell and weapon damage explicitly first, let's cover them first. Spell damage should be changed to the stat that all healing is derived from and weapon damage the stat all damage is derived from, max resources maintaining the same influence on ability power as now. The stats will likely be renamed to fit their new roles (i.e. Heal Power and Attack Power), but it will divide damage from healing.

This change assists hybrid resource builds as only one stat need be invested in for either damage or healing. Someone who wants to be a jack of all trades will still need Pelinal's Aptitude to have both decent healing and damage, but a spellsword can equip Hunding's Rage and have both potent steel and magic, while Law of Julianos will enhance all healing. Max stamina and magicka will still be important for ability strength, so pure warriors and mages can still be stronger than hybrids in their respective fields.

There is an overlooked issue to this approach: siphoning attacks. There are multiple attacks which heal based on damage done such as Puncturing Sweeps, Strife, Burning Embers and Bloodlust. There are two ways to address siphoning attacks: they are governed by an average of spell and weapon damage or they are governed 50-50, spell damage determining healing and weapon damage the damage. In the both cases siphoning abilities will heal similarly for both offensive and healing focused builds, but shine strongest for users of Pelinal's Aptitude. However in the latter solution, the percentage of damage converted to healing will be variable and potentially under or overpowered depending on the user's stats. Calculating siphoning ability strength on an average will make them perform more consistently.

Progressive Soft Caps

ESO was originally designed and balanced with soft caps. For most stats, there was point where a 40% soft cap was incurred. For weapon damage, this was 207; for health recovery, 95; etc. To many it felt like a hard cap, even though several builds went far beyond it. I pushed health recovery to 218 while maintaining physical and spell resistance and weapon damage at their soft caps and pushed stamina recovery to its cap with a single buff. There were also blind spots, like critical chance and cost reduction. The premise of progressive soft caps is to implement a cap that gradually gets harder as stats go higher. I toyed around with a few numbers in another thread and the three tier 20-40-80 contained power creep the most effectively while maintaining fluidity at lower numbers.

Soft cap test numbers:

First Cap: 2000 - 20%
Second Cap: 3000 - 40%
Third Cap: 4000 - 80%

Actual vs Capped
1000 => 1000
2000 => 2000 (First Cap)
3000 => 2800
3250 => 3000 (Second Cap)
4000 => 3450
4917 => 4000 (Third Cap)
5000 => 4017
9917 => 5000

The 20-40-80 tiered caps makes attaining a serviceable number (such as 2000 weapon damage) easy, a high number (such as 3654) difficult and obscene numbers (such as 5000) nigh impossible to reach.

Power creep has done more than reveal the flaw of linking damage and healing: it has removed the resource game from the resource driven combat. The removal of soft caps lessened the strain on resources but the Champion System alleviated the pressure almost entirely from a player's primary resource. Soft caps have the influence to return this lost aspect of combat and the following draft is aiming to return this, increasing TTK and lowering the likelihood of stalemate between similarly skilled/specced combatants.

*The numbers are for a level 50 player and should not be interpreted for lower levels.

Max Stamina
Cap 1: 17000
Cap 2: 21000
Cap 3: 25000

Max Health
Cap 1: 20000
Cap 2: 23000
Cap 4: 26000
(Battle Spirit will ignore the soft cap(s).)

Max Magicka
Cap 1: 17000
Cap 2: 21000
Cap 3: 25000

Stamina Recovery
Cap 1: 1200
Cap 2: 1600
Cap 3: 2000

Health Recovery
Cap 1: 900
Cap 2: 1200
Cap 3: 1500

Magicka Recovery
Cap 1: 1200
Cap 2: 1600
Cap 3: 2000

Spell Damage
Cap 1: 1900
Cap 2: 2800
Cap 3: 3700

Weapon Damage
Cap 1: 1900
Cap 2: 2800
Cap 3: 3700

Spell Critical
Cap 1: 15%
Cap 2: 30%
Cap 3: 45%

Weapon Critical
Cap 1: 15%
Cap 2: 30%
Cap 3: 45%

(Critical modifier has few enough increasers that it can be uncapped.)

Spell Resistance
Cap 1: 16250
Cap 2: 24375
Cap 3: 32500
(Hard cap is replaced by soft cap.)
(Penetration will be applied prior to soft cap.)

Physical Resistance
Cap 1: 16250
Cap 2: 24375
Cap 3: 32500
(Hard cap is replaced by soft cap.)
(Penetration will be applied prior to soft cap.)

Cost reduction:
Cap 1: -20% ability cost
Cap 2: -30% ability cost
Cap 3: -40% ability cost
(Cost reduction mileage will vary by ability cost.)

The Champion System will not bypass these soft caps, and to ensure the calculations are more straightforward, how healing and damage increasing stars work will be changed. They will increase the spell/weapon damage by a percentage when using a relevant ability rather than the tooltip value, so the Champion System is also checked by the soft caps. There is an example of this in the Flame Whip morph, Molten Whip: "While slotted, your Spell and Weapon Damage is increased by 70 for Ardent Flame abilities." Defensive counter stars such as Hardy can work similarly, increasing Spell/Physical Resistance prior to soft caps when struck by a relevant damage type. Extreme defense builds should be as hard to attain as extreme offense and extreme healing builds.

To give a sense of how today's numbers may translate:
Actual => Capped

Max Stamina
40000 => 25000 + (40000 - 17000 - 4000/.8 - 4000/.6)*.2 = 27267
30000 => 25267
20000 => 19400
10000 => 10000

Max Health
60000 => 26000 + (60000 - 20000 - 3000/.8 - 3000/.6)*.2 = 32250
50000 => 30250
30000 => 26250
25000 => 23750
20000 => 20000
15000 => 15000

Max Magicka
40000 => 25000 + (40000 - 17000 - 4000/.8 - 4000/.6)*.2 = 27267
30000 => 25267
20000 => 19400
10000 => 10000

Stamina Recovery
3000 => 2000 + (3000 - 1200 - 400/.8 - 400/.6)*.2 = 2127
2000 => 1600 + (2000 - 1200 - 400/.8)*.6 = 1780
1000 => 1000

Health Recovery
3000 => 1500 + (3000 - 900 - 300/.8 - 300/.6)*.2 = 1745
2000 => 1545
1300 => 1215
1000 => 980

Magicka Recovery
3000 => 2000 + (3000 - 1200 - 400/.8 - 400/.6)*.2 = 2127
2000 => 1600 + (2000 - 1200 - 400/.8)*.6 = 1780
1000 => 1000

Spell Damage
5000 => 3700 + (5000 - 1900 - 900/.8 - 900/.6)*.2 = 3795
4000 => 2800 + (4000 - 1900 - 900/.8)*.6 = 3385
3000 => 2780
2000 => 1980
1500 => 1500

Weapon Damage
5000 => 3700 + (5000 - 1900 - 900/.8 - 900/.6)*.2 = 3795
4000 => 2800 + (4000 - 1900 - 900/.8)*.6 = 3385
3000 => 2780
2000 => 1980
1500 => 1500

Spell Critical
100% => 45 + (100 - 15 - 15/.8 - 15/.6)*.2 = 53.25%
60% => 45.25%
50% => 39.75%
40% => 33.75%
30% => 27%
22% => 20.6%
20% => 19%
10% => 10%

Weapon Critical
100% => 45 + (100 - 15 - 15/.8 - 15/.6)*.2 = 53.25%
60% => 45.25%
50% => 39.75%
40% => 33.75%
30% => 27%
22% => 20.6%
20% => 19%
10% => 10%

Spell Resistance
40000 => 32500 + (40000 - 16250 - 8125/.8 - 8125/.6)*.2 = 32510
32500 => 28031
25000 => 23250
20000 => 19250
17160 => 16978
10560 => 10560

Physical Resistance
40000 => 32500 + (40000 - 16250 - 8125/.8 - 8125/.6)*.2 = 32510
32500 => 28031
25000 => 23250
20000 => 19250
17160 => 16978
10560 => 10560

Additional Math

Can stamina recovery while blocking be allowed under soft caps?

Current Day:
Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1620 – 203x3 = 1620 – 609 = 1011
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1011 * .56 = 566
Sturdy x8: 566 * .68 = 385
Constitution 1 second: 385 – 326 = 59

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 4 = 531 stamina per 0.5 seconds
Max percentage reduction:
.75*.56*.68 = .2856 = 71.44%
Under soft caps:
40 + (71.44 - 20 - 10/.8 - 10/.6)*.2 = 44.45 => 0.5555
Block cost enchantments under max soft caps:
609*.2 = 121.8
Minimum Block cost:
2160 * .5555 - 121.8 - 326 = 752
Max Stamina: 27267
Seconds until stamina depleted (1 hit/sec): 27267 / 752 = 36.25 ~= 33 Yes!
Seconds until stamina depleted (2+/sec): 27267 / (2156 - 163) = 27267 / 1993 = 13.68 ~= 14 Yes!

Can we remove the Roll Dodge Fatigue increasing cost mechanic?

Current Day:
Base Roll Cost: 3654
15% Champion Cost Reduction: 3654 * .75 = 2740
Athletics x7: 2740 * .72 = 1973
Well-Fitted x8: 1973 * .6 = 1184

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 2 = 1062 stamina per 1 second
Max percentage reduction:
.75*.72*.6 = .324 = 67.6%
Under soft caps:
40 + (67.6 - 20 - 10/.8 - 10/.6)*.2 = 43.7 => 0.563
Roll Dodge cost under soft caps:
3654*.563 = 2057
Max Stamina: 27267
Number of Roll Dodges: 27267 / (2057 - 1062) = 27267 / 995 = 27 No...

Can we remove the increasing cost to Bolt Escape?

Base Bolt Escape Cost: 3780
16% Champion Cost Reduction: 3780 * .84 = 3175
3x gold reduce spell cost glyphs: 3175 - 203 * 3 = 3175 - 609 = 2566
Seducer set: 2566 * 0.92 = 2361
Evocation x7: 2361 * 0.79 = 1865
Breton cost reduction: 1865 * 0.97 = 1809

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 2 = 1062 magicka per 1 second
Max percentage reduction:
.84*.92*.79*.97 = .5922 = 40.78%
Under soft caps:
30 + (40.78 - 20 - 10/.8)*.6 = 34.97 => 0.6503
Bolt Escape cost under soft caps:
3780 * .6503 = 2458
2458 - (203*.6) = 2458 - 121.8 = 2336
( 2336 - (3780*.6) ) /.6 = (2336 - 2268)/.6 = 68/.6 = 113
2268 - (406 - 113)*.2 = 2268 - 293*.2 = 2209
Max Magicka: 27267
Number of Bolt Escapes: 27267 / (2209 - 1062) = 27267 / 1147 = 23 No...

I am considering dropping the cost reduction soft caps to 10%, 20% and 30% an ability's cost, but do not want rework that math right now.

There is one final part to my rebalancing: empowering active defenses. In 1.5 and prior, passive defenses were worse than they are now. As a heavily armored player today, you can see 3 to 5k damage on your death recap from unblocked attacks. In the past they were 500 to 800, or 5k to 8k. So, how is TTK so much lower now? It came from active defenses, such as blocking, rolling, damage shields and healing. To empower most active defenses, Battle Spirit's reduction needs to be removed. With soft caps, we can stop balancing around edge cases and the extremes of power -- Dragon Blood and Sun Shield will be useful to the average Dragonknight and Templar once again. Stamina recovery while blocking can also be allowed, as with the soft caps on both stamina recovery and cost reduction, it is impossible to out recover block cost.

slackrain_ESO

Id release a new class

It wouldn't fix a damn thing, but people would be too distracted with complaining that said class is broken in every aspect imaginable.

AfkNinja

Ffastyl wrote: »

The abilities were designed for a range of numbers currently long surpassed. Taking into account the ~10x multiplier on numbers from Update 6, the average competitive player has twice the stats of such players a year ago. ~200 weapon damage was endgame in 1.5, or ~2000 now. A DPS currently has ~4000 weapon damage either with or without the aid of buffs. There is also an inherent flaw in the current system that arose with the power creep: damage and healing derived from the same stats.

What would I do?

Add progressive soft caps to all stats and adjust how two stats in particular interact with the game at large (spell and weapon damage).

Spell and Weapon Damage

Since I mentioned spell and weapon damage explicitly first, let's cover them first. Spell damage should be changed to the stat that all healing is derived from and weapon damage the stat all damage is derived from, max resources maintaining the same influence on ability power as now. The stats will likely be renamed to fit their new roles (i.e. Heal Power and Attack Power), but it will divide damage from healing.

This change assists hybrid resource builds as only one stat need be invested in for either damage or healing. Someone who wants to be a jack of all trades will still need Pelinal's Aptitude to have both decent healing and damage, but a spellsword can equip Hunding's Rage and have both potent steel and magic, while Law of Julianos will enhance all healing. Max stamina and magicka will still be important for ability strength, so pure warriors and mages can still be stronger than hybrids in their respective fields.

There is an overlooked issue to this approach: siphoning attacks. There are multiple attacks which heal based on damage done such as Puncturing Sweeps, Strife, Burning Embers and Bloodlust. There are two ways to address siphoning attacks: they are governed by an average of spell and weapon damage or they are governed 50-50, spell damage determining healing and weapon damage the damage. In the both cases siphoning abilities will heal similarly for both offensive and healing focused builds, but shine strongest for users of Pelinal's Aptitude. However in the latter solution, the percentage of damage converted to healing will be variable and potentially under or overpowered depending on the user's stats. Calculating siphoning ability strength on an average will make them perform more consistently.

Progressive Soft Caps

ESO was originally designed and balanced with soft caps. For most stats, there was point where a 40% soft cap was incurred. For weapon damage, this was 207; for health recovery, 95; etc. To many it felt like a hard cap, even though several builds went far beyond it. I pushed health recovery to 218 while maintaining physical and spell resistance and weapon damage at their soft caps and pushed stamina recovery to its cap with a single buff. There were also blind spots, like critical chance and cost reduction. The premise of progressive soft caps is to implement a cap that gradually gets harder as stats go higher. I toyed around with a few numbers in another thread and the three tier 20-40-80 contained power creep the most effectively while maintaining fluidity at lower numbers.

Soft cap test numbers:

First Cap: 2000 - 20%
Second Cap: 3000 - 40%
Third Cap: 4000 - 80%

Actual vs Capped
1000 => 1000
2000 => 2000 (First Cap)
3000 => 2800
3250 => 3000 (Second Cap)
4000 => 3450
4917 => 4000 (Third Cap)
5000 => 4017
9917 => 5000

The 20-40-80 tiered caps makes attaining a serviceable number (such as 2000 weapon damage) easy, a high number (such as 3654) difficult and obscene numbers (such as 5000) nigh impossible to reach.

Power creep has done more than reveal the flaw of linking damage and healing: it has removed the resource game from the resource driven combat. The removal of soft caps lessened the strain on resources but the Champion System alleviated the pressure almost entirely from a player's primary resource. Soft caps have the influence to return this lost aspect of combat and the following draft is aiming to return this, increasing TTK and lowering the likelihood of stalemate between similarly skilled/specced combatants.

*The numbers are for a level 50 player and should not be interpreted for lower levels.

Max Stamina
Cap 1: 17000
Cap 2: 21000
Cap 3: 25000

Max Health
Cap 1: 20000
Cap 2: 23000
Cap 4: 26000
(Battle Spirit will ignore the soft cap(s).)

Max Magicka
Cap 1: 17000
Cap 2: 21000
Cap 3: 25000

Stamina Recovery
Cap 1: 1200
Cap 2: 1600
Cap 3: 2000

Health Recovery
Cap 1: 900
Cap 2: 1200
Cap 3: 1500

Magicka Recovery
Cap 1: 1200
Cap 2: 1600
Cap 3: 2000

Spell Damage
Cap 1: 1900
Cap 2: 2800
Cap 3: 3700

Weapon Damage
Cap 1: 1900
Cap 2: 2800
Cap 3: 3700

Spell Critical
Cap 1: 15%
Cap 2: 30%
Cap 3: 45%

Weapon Critical
Cap 1: 15%
Cap 2: 30%
Cap 3: 45%

(Critical modifier has few enough increasers that it can be uncapped.)

Spell Resistance
Cap 1: 16250
Cap 2: 24375
Cap 3: 32500
(Hard cap is replaced by soft cap.)
(Penetration will be applied prior to soft cap.)

Physical Resistance
Cap 1: 16250
Cap 2: 24375
Cap 3: 32500
(Hard cap is replaced by soft cap.)
(Penetration will be applied prior to soft cap.)

Cost reduction:
Cap 1: -20% ability cost
Cap 2: -30% ability cost
Cap 3: -40% ability cost
(Cost reduction mileage will vary by ability cost.)

The Champion System will not bypass these soft caps, and to ensure the calculations are more straightforward, how healing and damage increasing stars work will be changed. They will increase the spell/weapon damage by a percentage when using a relevant ability rather than the tooltip value, so the Champion System is also checked by the soft caps. There is an example of this in the Flame Whip morph, Molten Whip: "While slotted, your Spell and Weapon Damage is increased by 70 for Ardent Flame abilities." Defensive counter stars such as Hardy can work similarly, increasing Spell/Physical Resistance prior to soft caps when struck by a relevant damage type. Extreme defense builds should be as hard to attain as extreme offense and extreme healing builds.

To give a sense of how today's numbers may translate:
Actual => Capped

Max Stamina
40000 => 25000 + (40000 - 17000 - 4000/.8 - 4000/.6)*.2 = 27267
30000 => 25267
20000 => 19400
10000 => 10000

Max Health
60000 => 26000 + (60000 - 20000 - 3000/.8 - 3000/.6)*.2 = 32250
50000 => 30250
30000 => 26250
25000 => 23750
20000 => 20000
15000 => 15000

Max Magicka
40000 => 25000 + (40000 - 17000 - 4000/.8 - 4000/.6)*.2 = 27267
30000 => 25267
20000 => 19400
10000 => 10000

Stamina Recovery
3000 => 2000 + (3000 - 1200 - 400/.8 - 400/.6)*.2 = 2127
2000 => 1600 + (2000 - 1200 - 400/.8)*.6 = 1780
1000 => 1000

Health Recovery
3000 => 1500 + (3000 - 900 - 300/.8 - 300/.6)*.2 = 1745
2000 => 1545
1300 => 1215
1000 => 980

Magicka Recovery
3000 => 2000 + (3000 - 1200 - 400/.8 - 400/.6)*.2 = 2127
2000 => 1600 + (2000 - 1200 - 400/.8)*.6 = 1780
1000 => 1000

Spell Damage
5000 => 3700 + (5000 - 1900 - 900/.8 - 900/.6)*.2 = 3795
4000 => 2800 + (4000 - 1900 - 900/.8)*.6 = 3385
3000 => 2780
2000 => 1980
1500 => 1500

Weapon Damage
5000 => 3700 + (5000 - 1900 - 900/.8 - 900/.6)*.2 = 3795
4000 => 2800 + (4000 - 1900 - 900/.8)*.6 = 3385
3000 => 2780
2000 => 1980
1500 => 1500

Spell Critical
100% => 45 + (100 - 15 - 15/.8 - 15/.6)*.2 = 53.25%
60% => 45.25%
50% => 39.75%
40% => 33.75%
30% => 27%
22% => 20.6%
20% => 19%
10% => 10%

Weapon Critical
100% => 45 + (100 - 15 - 15/.8 - 15/.6)*.2 = 53.25%
60% => 45.25%
50% => 39.75%
40% => 33.75%
30% => 27%
22% => 20.6%
20% => 19%
10% => 10%

Spell Resistance
40000 => 32500 + (40000 - 16250 - 8125/.8 - 8125/.6)*.2 = 32510
32500 => 28031
25000 => 23250
20000 => 19250
17160 => 16978
10560 => 10560

Physical Resistance
40000 => 32500 + (40000 - 16250 - 8125/.8 - 8125/.6)*.2 = 32510
32500 => 28031
25000 => 23250
20000 => 19250
17160 => 16978
10560 => 10560

Additional Math

Can stamina recovery while blocking be allowed under soft caps?

Current Day:
Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1620 – 203x3 = 1620 – 609 = 1011
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1011 * .56 = 566
Sturdy x8: 566 * .68 = 385
Constitution 1 second: 385 – 326 = 59

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 4 = 531 stamina per 0.5 seconds
Max percentage reduction:
.75*.56*.68 = .2856 = 71.44%
Under soft caps:
40 + (71.44 - 20 - 10/.8 - 10/.6)*.2 = 44.45 => 0.5555
Block cost enchantments under max soft caps:
609*.2 = 121.8
Minimum Block cost:
2160 * .5555 - 121.8 - 326 = 752
Max Stamina: 27267
Seconds until stamina depleted (1 hit/sec): 27267 / 752 = 36.25 ~= 33 Yes!
Seconds until stamina depleted (2+/sec): 27267 / (2156 - 163) = 27267 / 1993 = 13.68 ~= 14 Yes!

Can we remove the Roll Dodge Fatigue increasing cost mechanic?

Current Day:
Base Roll Cost: 3654
15% Champion Cost Reduction: 3654 * .75 = 2740
Athletics x7: 2740 * .72 = 1973
Well-Fitted x8: 1973 * .6 = 1184

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 2 = 1062 stamina per 1 second
Max percentage reduction:
.75*.72*.6 = .324 = 67.6%
Under soft caps:
40 + (67.6 - 20 - 10/.8 - 10/.6)*.2 = 43.7 => 0.563
Roll Dodge cost under soft caps:
3654*.563 = 2057
Max Stamina: 27267
Number of Roll Dodges: 27267 / (2057 - 1062) = 27267 / 995 = 27 No...

Can we remove the increasing cost to Bolt Escape?

Base Bolt Escape Cost: 3780
16% Champion Cost Reduction: 3780 * .84 = 3175
3x gold reduce spell cost glyphs: 3175 - 203 * 3 = 3175 - 609 = 2566
Seducer set: 2566 * 0.92 = 2361
Evocation x7: 2361 * 0.79 = 1865
Breton cost reduction: 1865 * 0.97 = 1809

Under the proposed soft caps...
Max Recovery:
2127 / 2 = 1062 magicka per 1 second
Max percentage reduction:
.84*.92*.79*.97 = .5922 = 40.78%
Under soft caps:
30 + (40.78 - 20 - 10/.8)*.6 = 34.97 => 0.6503
Bolt Escape cost under soft caps:
3780 * .6503 = 2458
2458 - (203*.6) = 2458 - 121.8 = 2336
( 2336 - (3780*.6) ) /.6 = (2336 - 2268)/.6 = 68/.6 = 113
2268 - (406 - 113)*.2 = 2268 - 293*.2 = 2209
Max Magicka: 27267
Number of Bolt Escapes: 27267 / (2209 - 1062) = 27267 / 1147 = 23 No...

I am considering dropping the cost reduction soft caps to 10%, 20% and 30% an ability's cost, but do not want rework that math right now.

There is one final part to my rebalancing: empowering active defenses. In 1.5 and prior, passive defenses were worse than they are now. As a heavily armored player today, you can see 3 to 5k damage on your death recap from unblocked attacks. In the past they were 500 to 800, or 5k to 8k. So, how is TTK so much lower now? It came from active defenses, such as blocking, rolling, damage shields and healing. To empower most active defenses, Battle Spirit's reduction needs to be removed. With soft caps, we can stop balancing around edge cases and the extremes of power -- Dragon Blood and Sun Shield will be useful to the average Dragonknight and Templar once again. Stamina recovery while blocking can also be allowed, as with the soft caps on both stamina recovery and cost reduction, it is impossible to out recover block cost.

I like your math. hehe

FriedEggSandwich

I have no issues building for survival in pvp, the trouble then is that damage really lacks. When I look at stam builds they seem to be able to be just as survivable, if not more, and do more damage. So my thought on how to buff my magicka build would be to slightly increase tootip damage for certain skills. That's it.

bimbo wrote: »

what people don't understand is magicka are ranged and stam are melee.

melee = hard = should get higher dps than ranged.

if you are asking magicka to do the same number as stam, then buff the hell of melee resistances and hp.

I used to agree with you, but gap-closers are so effective and cheap.

FriedEggSandwich

Bisenberger96 wrote: »

Spell resistance shredding sets.

Nooooo Penetration is already off the scale lol.

Espica

Balanced in PvP or PvE?

I'll start by quoting one of the showcase videos from ZOE.
"Character Progression: Be Who You Want to Be
Published on Dec 3, 2013
We explore the systems you'll use to build exactly the character you want to play as you explore Tamriel in The Elder Scrolls Online."

They didn't say it could be a not optimal character. Class + Race combinations are not the best in a lot of cases, things get changed a lot from time to time.

IMO that Be Who You Want to Be freedom causes all the imbalances. Any class can be anything, but it doesn't mean all can do it with the same efficiency, people want it though.
It would be interesting to release in the PTS some archetype classes to see how players like it, and how they fit into the game.

My idea for PvP is to remove all the class and racial skills/passives while you are in Cyrodiil, that way you you'd be in an even field with only Weapon, Armor, PvP, and guild lines.

waterfairy

bimbo wrote: »

what people don't understand is magicka are ranged and stam are melee.

melee = hard = should get higher dps than ranged.

if you are asking magicka to do the same number as stam, then buff the hell of melee resistances and hp.

Melee has the best armor though whereas a ranged magic user is squishy in a man dress so ranged magic should be the most powerful DPS.

Silver_Strider

1) Remove Max Stamina/Magic from equation for increasing damage
2) Separate Block/Dodge Roll/Break Free/etc mechanic from stamina and place it in a neutral "Endurance" stat
3) Rework/rebalance every skill in the game, excluding weapon skills. Buff/reworking all skills/passives to be meaningful towards any number of different builds (Mitigation Healers, DoT DPS, Regen tanks, etc. will all be made powerful in their own right to truly give the freedom of "play how you like" without being gimped for doing so.
4) Reevaluate all sets so that they are balanced between themselves while also changing certain set bonuses to offer correct buffs for their intended playstyle (I.E. Ice Furnace giving Spell Damage instead of Weapon damage). This would also include changing sets to be more valuable for certain playstyles over others. (I.E> changing Trinimac's Valor to offer a damage shield base on a % of the amount healed vs what it is now.)
5) Remove all % based increases to stats/damage and give them fixed amounts.

That's just the surface of what I'd do for this game, if only I knew coding

makreth

bimbo wrote: »

what people don't understand is magicka are ranged and stam are melee.

melee = hard = should get higher dps than ranged.

if you are asking magicka to do the same number as stam, then buff the hell of melee resistances and hp.

on paper, but i would argue on that since:

bow = stamina = ranged

melee= spammable gap closers which mostly snare or root


As you can see it's a never ending war. Ranged can either use some cc and get some distance ( but it's mostly futile since CC removal is so easy for the stamina users -- > followed by gap closer again) or stay there at fight which in terms of your argument a magicka user will die.

I don't know, I used to play a stamina toon and now I'm playing a magicka. You could say I'm anti-fotm but I can see clearly what's going on. It's not just about stamina vs magicka. The issue is deeper imo.

Soft caps
CC immunity ---> decent CC abilities ; I mean there are CC abilities in some trees not even worthwhile for PvP because CC removal is so easy and rather innefective vs stamina.

Robbmrp

These are all great ideas peeps. Hopefully Zenimax has/is already working on one of them to help bring things back into balance. One of the easier fixes that would help a lot that @Espica mentioned were to turn off racial passives in PVP. This could be accomplished through battlespirit for sure and would help out quite a bit. Without those, builds will be all attribute, Set and CP dependent for the CP campaigns.

If they did this, I feel for those players who just paid for a race change specifically to help out their PVP game play.

mtwiggz

In the current meta it is easier to stack spell resist over physical resist due to a lot of the early day passives that never got revamped. Which ultimately hurts Magicka builds.

When ZoS' rebalanced some skills and passives for stamina morphs and the like they did so with one thing in mind, damage.

It is currently a lot easier to stack between 4-5k weapon damage with decent 1.5-2k stamina regen and large stamina pool than to hit numbers anywhere near as high with Magicka builds.

Stamina weapon lines have some of the most versatile skills in the game, all of which deal more damage than any of the magicka weapon lines. Not to mention in most cases the stamina skills are much cheaper, resource wise, than the magicka counter parts.

Stamina skills synergize much better with their passives than magicka skills do as well. Such as Steel Tornado being a large radius, high damage, execute. The counter part being Impulse or Pular which is a small radius with low damage and a DoT that continuously overwrites itself.

The armor nerf to Light Armor many patches ago also made wearing it no safer than wearing a paper bag to war.

ZoS did a very poor job bringing stamina up to par with magicka throughout the past 10 or so updates. Near completely neglecting magicka the entire time which made stamina prevail.

Oh, gonna throw this in there as well, ZoS completely muffed on penetration last patch. It's out of hand and needs to be revisited.

Wifeaggro13

Just put a cap on all abilites when in Cry O Dil. Its not horribly imbalanced in PVE, Let the Stam players have a little fun for a year you basically bent everyone over in the shower and let Cell block C have at anyone who did not wear light armor and have a magica build for two years. Now the shoe is on the other foot the dress wearers are squirting tears out their eyes.

Wifeaggro13

bimbo wrote: »

what people don't understand is magicka are ranged and stam are melee.

melee = hard = should get higher dps than ranged.

if you are asking magicka to do the same number as stam, then buff the hell of melee resistances and hp.

exactly , no one understands the Dynamic of burst DPS. Melee DPs has always been the burst and Magica the sustained number. this is what happens when the call of duty generation meets the Everquest gen. you get a dead horse and a F2P content

Bryanonymous

I would make a spread sheet of both and consider the abilities and their counters, and then see if they are all competitive against each other. For example, Bolt Escape has a spam penalty, so why do gap closers and self heals not? Just one idea.

Qbiken

I would nerf everything to the ground, remove gear, CP weapons, skills, attributes so we all can just rely on fistfighting.....(kappa)....

or we can make it so that everyone have access to everything from second 1 in the game and ofc make khajiit a magicka race since everyone wants that to happen....kappa

BrianDavion

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

bimbo wrote: »

what people don't understand is magicka are ranged and stam are melee.

melee = hard = should get higher dps than ranged.

if you are asking magicka to do the same number as stam, then buff the hell of melee resistances and hp.

exactly , no one understands the Dynamic of burst DPS. Melee DPs has always been the burst and Magica the sustained number. this is what happens when the call of duty generation meets the Everquest gen. you get a dead horse and a F2P content

MMO players are used to going into a MMO, rolling a wizard, and then rolling their face on the keyboard to wipe out an entire group of the poor people who rolled melee. seriously in EVERY other MMO I've played casters have always been, over powered, sueally by a LOT too.

Lucky28

1. Give Breton increased magic damage racial passive.
2. make fighters guild and mages guild have both magicka and stamina options at least as far as the ultimates go
3. give shields a longer duration. sharpened as it is makes light armor non-existent
4. and something needs to be done with Dual wield. either take the Spell damage off and give it to Destruction staffs or give the morphs some Magicka options.
5. Destruction staffs need a straight up buff

Own

give sorcs their teleport and shields back. Decrease roll dodge cost/increase stacking cost. decrease break free cost/reduce stamina cost reduction on unchained champion 120pt bonus.

Gargath

I don't think it's even possible to make a real balance in MMO game with so many different builds, abilities, sets and creative minds of the players. For me it's all about finding optimal build to use efficiently to surpass mobs and other players. If I feel that I'm underpowered, I read and ask to make another builds, using example of those who already found their perfect way.
I don't have much problems with stamina or magicka now, and don't think they are unbalanced.

WillhelmBlack

You can balance the entire game if you just reintroduced soft caps.

WillhelmBlack

#bringbackthekonk

Sharee

Remove vigor. That's it.

You can still have insane burst, you can still dodge roll over the horizon, but if i hurt you, you can no longer animation cancel a vigor cast with a roll dodge and emerge at full life when the roll ends.

Aedaryl

First buff light armor : put the regen and reduc cost in one same passive like stam and add a new passive : add 10% more regen if you wear minimum 5 pieces of light armor (stam have 12% more weap damage).

Then, fix cps passives imbalance like unchained.

Next, nerf heavy armor in the way of being in heavy don't mean being a god with cap resist, infinite stam and damage close to medium armor.

Finally, buff mag dk sorc and nb in passive or skill to make them competitive with stam.

brandonv516

bimbo wrote: »

what people don't understand is magicka are ranged and stam are melee.

melee = hard = should get higher dps than ranged.

if you are asking magicka to do the same number as stam, then buff the hell of melee resistances and hp.

Except magicka is asked to do the same as stam when we are forced to get close too.

For example: Concealed weapon, sap essence, mass hysteria on nb. These MAGICKA skills all require melee range.

Lucky28

brandonv516 wrote: »

bimbo wrote: »

what people don't understand is magicka are ranged and stam are melee.

melee = hard = should get higher dps than ranged.

if you are asking magicka to do the same number as stam, then buff the hell of melee resistances and hp.

Except magicka is asked to do the same as stam when we are forced to get close too.

For example: Concealed weapon, sap essence, mass hysteria on nb. These MAGICKA skills all require melee range.

that and gap closers make fighting at range pretty freaking irrelevant. and bows have longer range than magic anyways.

old_mufasa

I know this wont be popular but they need to remove animation stacking.. and your animation cancel needs to cancel the effect you canceled... so no more cutting the animation to stack damage...

That's the first thing they should do then address balance based on that...

The next is stam should be used to block stamina based attacks and magic should be used to block magic based attacks..

That would mean that a caster is going to over power through a stam based character defense.... just as a stam character is going to over power the magic players defense. This would mean magic defends magic, stam defends stam.. always bugged me that magic blocking was stam based. If you are engulfed in fire.. it should be your magic that protects you.. just saying...

Shields should give a bonus pools or make what ever stat higher used for blocking. As blocking will be more prevalent with the animation changes. This would make sword and boards more effective vs all damage types.

Oh and add a AOE tuant.. dang it...

clv

old_mufasa wrote: »

I know this wont be popular but they need to remove animation stacking.. and your animation cancel needs to cancel the effect you canceled... so no more cutting the animation to stack damage...

That's the first thing they should do then address balance based on that...

The next is stam should be used to block stamina based attacks and magic should be used to block magic based attacks..

That would mean that a caster is going to over power through a stam based character defense.... just as a stam character is going to over power the magic players defense. This would mean magic defends magic, stam defends stam.. always bugged me that magic blocking was stam based. If you are engulfed in fire.. it should be your magic that protects you.. just saying...

Shields should give a bonus pools or make what ever stat higher used for blocking. As blocking will be more prevalent with the animation changes. This would make sword and boards more effective vs all damage types.

Oh and add a AOE tuant.. dang it...

You completely misunderstand what animation cancelling even does

Aquanova

I would nerf vigor or rally. These 2 skills along with the new traits for armor have made stam builds way OP.

They can do incredible burst damage, burst heal, heal over time, Dodge roll forever with the trait/cp passive and have mobility that magicka builds lack.

Did I mention. That 2 stam classes have status effects that along with certain sets put their damage potential way above what magicka builds are capable of.

ZOS needs to do another thorough balance pass, cause right now it's totally in favor of stam.

At least make 1 of the morphs for vigor magicka so we don't have to use the resto staff.

Khaos_Bane

Aquanova wrote: »

I would nerf vigor or rally. These 2 skills along with the new traits for armor have made stam builds way OP.

They can do incredible burst damage, burst heal, heal over time, Dodge roll forever with the trait/cp passive and have mobility that magicka builds lack.

Did I mention. That 2 stam classes have status effects that along with certain sets put their damage potential way above what magicka builds are capable of.

ZOS needs to do another thorough balance pass, cause right now it's totally in favor of stam.

At least make 1 of the morphs for vigor magicka so we don't have to use the resto staff.

Vigor is one of the best HoT's in the game right now, which isn't right IMO.

cjthibs

The problem isn't one skill...why do most folks here seem to focus on one skill or another?

It's a systemic problem produced by not having limitations.

You cannot balance something unless there is some form of limitation or cap.
It's simply not possible.

Yes, I said it. This game is no longer designed to take balance into account, at all.

We need caps.