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Should players be able to kill guards?
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Vipstaakki✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think it should be allowed. I don't think it's fair that they're the invulnerable. I mean everything else can be killed. Why not add guards? And everything respawns. Just don't have so many guards join in on the fight to kill you for not paying your bounty
Only if they also remove the old school version of the wrecking blow from mobs and replace it with the updated wrecking blow.
Its unfair they can still use a skill that we used to be able to but cannot anymore.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Would love to see HODOR or Beyond Infinite go full trial mode against a guard XD0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tbh would be nice if they just allowed players to use doors while theyre chased by guards.Its easy enough to escape them in the city, but not in banks or any other buildings.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Arthg✭✭✭✭✭
✭No.
Unless there's a PvP justice system and me and my posse of Orcs can bust y'all for a reward.PC/EU. NoCP PvP. sDK Orc IRL. Flawless tamperor. Pro scrub.2 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes! If they attack you, all bets should be off like in any PvE situations. Damn 6 millions health bar guards.. sheesh. Maybe, at least scale them down some so we could have a fighting chance, particularly when inside an enclosed structure. Outside, yeah, with higher CP, you can generally escaped, but inside.. forget about it, you're just toast.0 -
Giraffon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes.
But once you initiate combat with a guard, reinforcements come once every 5 seconds. So basically they won't leave you alone until you leave the area or get killed. They should be tough enough that you can't kill them in 5 seconds.
Oh, and the more players that are attacking guards, the more reinforcements that come (one for each player fighting guards).
This could actually lead to rioting in the streets which would be something to see for sure!Giraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes.
But once you initiate combat with a guard, reinforcements come once every 5 seconds. So basically they won't leave you alone until you leave the area or get killed. They should be tough enough that you can't kill them in 5 seconds.
Oh, and the more players that are attacking guards, the more reinforcements that come (one for each player fighting guards).
This could actually lead to rioting in the streets which would be something to see for sure!
You mean, like this?
https://youtu.be/S4rXsrZRchQ
You will see loadscreens every 5 meters, thats for sure.
And in this case, would be better to make a player who killed a guard pvp-flagged for other players.
No need to generate 1000s of npcs on the streets and it will add some consequenses to being a criminal scum. Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
AClockworkLime✭✭✭To be honest, the real issue is one of "lore" and in-game logic.
Why the hell are these countless, unstoppable supersoldiers just milling around Davon's Watch and the like (and even less threatening locations like Khenrathi's Roost or Betnikh) rather than being out there single-handedly saving the world? Watch out for those level 3-5 threats guys! Better make sure there's twenty supermen around to protect the people from them! (Even though they don't, especially since the introduction of the Blade of Woe.)
It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.1 -
Giraffon✭✭✭✭✭
✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Tbh would be nice if they just allowed players to use doors while theyre chased by guards.Its easy enough to escape them in the city, but not in banks or any other buildings.
You can do it. I've done it. Keep rapid maneuvers on your bar. Carry invisibility pots. If the building is big enough, get them all to chase you to the farthest point away from the door, then use rapid maneuvers and sprint for the door. If that doesn't work, try using invisibility potions after you get a ways from them then try the door.
It only works in bigger structures, but it does work.Giraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@GreenhaloX wrote: »Damn 6 millions health bar guards.. sheesh
Trash mobs in vMoL have 2 million hp, and some trial bosses have 60-80. So 6 is not that much.
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Tbh would be nice if they just allowed players to use doors while theyre chased by guards.Its easy enough to escape them in the city, but not in banks or any other buildings.
You can do it. I've done it. Keep rapid maneuvers on your bar. Carry invisibility pots. If the building is big enough, get them all to chase you to the farthest point away from the door, then use rapid maneuvers and sprint for the door. If that doesn't work, try using invisibility potions after you get a ways from them then try the door.
It only works in bigger structures, but it does work.
Yeah, I know, and I did that too, but it is kinda immersion-breaking. You cant fight a guard and cant even open a door to escape him XDDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Cazic✭✭✭✭✭They should be killable for the sake of realism and choice, with the following rules
- Guards are extremely difficult (like a world boss)
- XP and loot gains are minimal, if anytning at all
- Killing a guard adds a lot of bounty
- Killing a guard summons other guards who will gang up on you1 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »2)Immersion.
Yes, people bought a TES game, not a GTA game.
Every TES before this had mortal guards. Smh...Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So in the end, the biggest lol ever. Seriously. You don't went Discussion. You just want all to fall in line with you.
K.AClockworkLime wrote: »To be honest, the real issue is one of "lore" and in-game logic.
Why the hell are these countless, unstoppable supersoldiers just milling around Davon's Watch and the like (and even less threatening locations like Khenrathi's Roost or Betnikh) rather than being out there single-handedly saving the world? Watch out for those level 3-5 threats guys! Better make sure there's twenty supermen around to protect the people from them! (Even though they don't, especially since the introduction of the Blade of Woe.)
It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
The same could be asked about all respawn locations for all activities, and if you think the lore is any different than past TES game, you are wrong. Guards would respawn after you killed them.Edited by Bryanonymous on August 15, 2016 2:21PM0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »2)Immersion.
Yes, people bought a TES game, not a GTA game.
Every TES before this had mortal guards. Smh...Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So in the end, the biggest lol ever. Seriously. You don't went Discussion. You just want all to fall in line with you.
K.
Every TES game had consequenses of killing everyone. Sure, you could do that... But all npcs except guards didnt respawn so it was effectivey the best way to screw up your game.
Also all previous TES games were single player, so no matter what you did in your own game, it could not affect other player's performance and immersion.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU2 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »2)Immersion.
Yes, people bought a TES game, not a GTA game.
Every TES before this had mortal guards. Smh...Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So in the end, the biggest lol ever. Seriously. You don't went Discussion. You just want all to fall in line with you.
K.
Every TES game had consequenses of killing everyone. Sure, you could do that... But all npcs except guards didnt respawn so it was effectivey the best way to screw up your game.
Also all previous TES games were single player, so no matter what you did in your own game, it could not affect other player's performance and immersion.
Now NPC's can die and respawn. Not sure how that has any relevance as the consequences would be identical.
Single player... MMO... makes no difference. You're arguing with very irrelevant substance.Edited by Bryanonymous on August 15, 2016 2:24PM0 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »@GreenhaloX wrote: »Damn 6 millions health bar guards.. sheesh
Trash mobs in vMoL have 2 million hp, and some trial bosses have 60-80. So 6 is not that much.
Ha ha.. yeah, but for one person, it is just a tiny bitsy too much. You have what, 12 high level players going at it in a trial run.. and yes, those 60-80 million heath bosses are ridiculous. I thought when we first encountered that 25 million health final boss in the Maw was just ridiculous. Yeah, so holy crap.. 60-80 millions!0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »FortheloveofKrist wrote: »@Bryanonymous
You can keep arguing with everyone, but it's not going to change. Guards are going to stay unkillable for good reason.
Yea, the reason being MEMORY LEAK. All other opinions are not reasons, they are preferences.
Anything to back up your "memory leak theory" ?
No ? That's what I thought.
PvP justice system would have been fun. But killable guards would just be a burden.
Yes it makes little sense that we can kill Molag Bal and all kind of badass stuff, but not simple guards. I built up a "story" according to which we kill all this stuff with the background help of Meridia, but when we steal or kill Meridia isn't happy so we're left weak when we commit crimes and have bounties.
Oh, and I like your point of view (things you agree with are objective valid reasons, things you disagree with are other people's personal preferences...)
Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on August 15, 2016 2:25PM2 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »I'm also a huge TES fan, who remembers killing guards and bounties still mattering.
Yet you want to make it so that Bounties don't matter.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"1 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »FortheloveofKrist wrote: »@Bryanonymous
You can keep arguing with everyone, but it's not going to change. Guards are going to stay unkillable for good reason.
Yea, the reason being MEMORY LEAK. All other opinions are not reasons, they are preferences.
Anything to back up your "memory leak theory" ?
No ? That's what I thought.
PvP justice system would have been fun. But killable guards would just be a burden.
Yes it makes little sense that we can kill Molag Bal and all kind of badass stuff, but not simple guards. I built up a "story" according to which we kill all this stuff with the background help of Meridia, but when we steal or kill Meridia isn't happy so we're left weak when we commit crimes and have bounties.
The game has a memory leak. I'm not here to prove that. It is not relevant to this thread, however I see it first had every time I play. After an hour, my FPS in cities is below 40, then I quit and reload, and bam, back to above 50. EVERYTIME. There is a memory leak, and if you haven't noticed, perhaps your computer is too slow to notice.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »
It is necessary because: A. If they were dead, there would be no NPC's around. B. There would be no point to paying bounties. C. The justice system would be too easy.
A. Simple fix is to increase the speed of respawns.
B. Wrong. Being attacked on site is still a consequence for being a criminal.
C. No one said the guards should be weak. Make them as strong as group bosses.
I'll concentrate on this part of your post. Because in my opinion you failed to supply effective counter arguments.
A. Increasing the speed in which NPCs spawn would not fix this. All it would do is make the job of murderous criminals easier as they would not have to wait as long to resume their killing sprees.
B. Right. Being attacked on site is not a sufficient consequence to pay bounties if you can just kill what attacks you. Why waste your gold?
C. It doesn't matter how much stronger you make the guards so long as they can be killed. Because so long as they can be killed there is less incentive to sneak around or avoid towns while you have a bounty on your head. This makes the Justice System easier (and less interesting IMHO).
Edited by Jeremy on August 15, 2016 2:37PM3 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »2)Immersion.
Yes, people bought a TES game, not a GTA game.
Every TES before this had mortal guards. Smh...Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So in the end, the biggest lol ever. Seriously. You don't went Discussion. You just want all to fall in line with you.
K.
Every TES game had consequenses of killing everyone. Sure, you could do that... But all npcs except guards didnt respawn so it was effectivey the best way to screw up your game.
Also all previous TES games were single player, so no matter what you did in your own game, it could not affect other player's performance and immersion.
Now NPC's can die and respawn. Not sure how that has any relevance as the consequences would be identical.
Single player... MMO... makes no difference. You're arguing with very irrelevant substance.
Umm... No?
How it will be identical if even if you killed everyone, they will still respawn? It wont affect your gameplay in any negative way, you will be able to just kill a guard if he respawns. Now there is at least one consequence - you cant walk around in cities with high bounty. If they would remove guard immunity, you can just kill a guard and proceed. Seriously, name at least one reason to avoid bounties if guards would be killable.
In Morrowind though, you could screw up your entire main quest during a killing spree. Not really comparable.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GreenhaloX wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »@GreenhaloX wrote: »Damn 6 millions health bar guards.. sheesh
Trash mobs in vMoL have 2 million hp, and some trial bosses have 60-80. So 6 is not that much.
Ha ha.. yeah, but for one person, it is just a tiny bitsy too much. You have what, 12 high level players going at it in a trial run.. and yes, those 60-80 million heath bosses are ridiculous. I thought when we first encountered that 25 million health final boss in the Maw was just ridiculous. Yeah, so holy crap.. 60-80 millions!
But the person wont be alone - there are other players
And there can be more than 12 of them. Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »
It is necessary because: A. If they were dead, there would be no NPC's around. B. There would be no point to paying bounties. C. The justice system would be too easy.
A. Simple fix is to increase the speed of respawns.
B. Wrong. Being attacked on site is still a consequence for being a criminal.
C. No one said the guards should be weak. Make them as strong as group bosses.
I'll concentrate on this part of your post. Because in my opinion you failed to supply effective counter arguments.
A: Increasing the speed in which NPCs spawn would not fix this. All it would do is make the job of murderous criminals easier as they would not have to wait as long to resume their killing sprees.
B: Right. Being attacked on site is not a sufficient consequence to pay bounties if you can just kill what attacks you. Why waste your gold?
C: It doesn't matter how much stronger you make the guards so long as they can be killed. Because so long as they can be killed there is less incentive to sneak around or avoid towns while you have a bounty out on your head. This makes the Justice System easier (and less interesting IMHO).
Your logic only gives opinion, and proves nothing except your personal preference. Being forced to sneak is not an essential part of a justice system. If you had played previous TES games, you would know that being attacked on site was a reason to pay off bounties.0 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭They should be killable for the sake of realism and choice, with the following rules
- Guards are extremely difficult (like a world boss)
- XP and loot gains are minimal, if anytning at all
- Killing a guard adds a lot of bounty
- Killing a guard summons other guards who will gang up on you
I wouldn't say a guard, particularly those in the CP 160 areas, is comparable to a world boss. Even maxed out at 501 CP with all your CP in the right slots, you can't take on a guard with that high of a health and win. However, you can solo most world boss pits, as when you're bored or brave enough to do so; much as I had done from time to time, particularly when I want to test out how a new armor set will hold up. Although, you would be definitely correct that a huge bounty would be slapped on you for killing a guard. Well, if that ever happens, I guess that would be when I can use my 100k grand leniency thing. Lol!Edited by GreenhaloX on August 15, 2016 2:33PM0 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »2)Immersion.
Yes, people bought a TES game, not a GTA game.
Every TES before this had mortal guards. Smh...Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So in the end, the biggest lol ever. Seriously. You don't went Discussion. You just want all to fall in line with you.
K.
Every TES game had consequenses of killing everyone. Sure, you could do that... But all npcs except guards didnt respawn so it was effectivey the best way to screw up your game.
Also all previous TES games were single player, so no matter what you did in your own game, it could not affect other player's performance and immersion.
Now NPC's can die and respawn. Not sure how that has any relevance as the consequences would be identical.
Single player... MMO... makes no difference. You're arguing with very irrelevant substance.
Umm... No?
How it will be identical if even if you killed everyone, they will still respawn? It wont affect your gameplay in any negative way, you will be able to just kill a guard if he respawns. Now there is at least one consequence - you cant walk around in cities with high bounty. If they would remove guard immunity, you can just kill a guard and proceed. Seriously, name at least one reason to avoid bounties if guards would be killable.
In Morrowind though, you could screw up your entire main quest during a killing spree. Not really comparable.
The negative impact is a bounty which continues to grow and never goes away. How is that so hard to misunderstand? And until it's paid off, you have super guards attacking you on sight.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They should be killable for the sake of realism and choice, with the following rules
- Guards are extremely difficult (like a world boss)
- XP and loot gains are minimal, if anytning at all
- Killing a guard adds a lot of bounty
- Killing a guard summons other guards who will gang up on you
Realism went out the window a long time ago as it relates to this game.
It seems most of your suggestions - to make them extremely difficult, to make them summon more guards to gang up on you - are basically steps in the direction of making them unkillable anyway.
So why complicate the system with a lot of indirect solutions to achieve something that this game does not and will not ever have anyway - i.e. realism?Edited by Jeremy on August 15, 2016 2:39PM2 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭They should be killable for the sake of realism and choice, with the following rules
- Guards are extremely difficult (like a world boss)
- XP and loot gains are minimal, if anytning at all
- Killing a guard adds a lot of bounty
- Killing a guard summons other guards who will gang up on you
Realism went out the window a long time ago as it relates to this game.
It seems most of your suggestions -to make them extremely difficult, to make them summon more guards to gang up on you - are basically steps in the direction of making them unkillable.
So why complicate the system with a lot of indirect solutions to achieve something that this game does not and will not ever have anyway - i.e. realism?
The main difference being that one is super hard, and the other is impossible... Even though it seems similar, it is completely different.Edited by Bryanonymous on August 15, 2016 2:39PM0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »2)Immersion.
Yes, people bought a TES game, not a GTA game.
Every TES before this had mortal guards. Smh...Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So in the end, the biggest lol ever. Seriously. You don't went Discussion. You just want all to fall in line with you.
K.
Every TES game had consequenses of killing everyone. Sure, you could do that... But all npcs except guards didnt respawn so it was effectivey the best way to screw up your game.
Also all previous TES games were single player, so no matter what you did in your own game, it could not affect other player's performance and immersion.
Now NPC's can die and respawn. Not sure how that has any relevance as the consequences would be identical.
Single player... MMO... makes no difference. You're arguing with very irrelevant substance.
Umm... No?
How it will be identical if even if you killed everyone, they will still respawn? It wont affect your gameplay in any negative way, you will be able to just kill a guard if he respawns. Now there is at least one consequence - you cant walk around in cities with high bounty. If they would remove guard immunity, you can just kill a guard and proceed. Seriously, name at least one reason to avoid bounties if guards would be killable.
In Morrowind though, you could screw up your entire main quest during a killing spree. Not really comparable.
The negative impact is a bounty which continues to grow and never goes away. How is that so hard to misunderstand? And until it's paid off, you have super guards attacking you on sight.
But what would be the purpose of that bounty? It will be jsut red numbers on your char screen.
If anything is killable, people will just team up and kill it. With insane dps builds many players have, it will be just a matter of seconds.
Imo the only way to make guards killable and keep bounties meaningful would be justice system pvp. So if you would kill a guard, it would respawn normally, without over 9000 buddies, but this would make you pvp flagged for some time.
After all, its unfair if people would be able to help a criminal, but unable to side with city guard.Edited by LadyNalcarya on August 15, 2016 2:39PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU2 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bryanonymous wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »2)Immersion.
Yes, people bought a TES game, not a GTA game.
Every TES before this had mortal guards. Smh...Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So in the end, the biggest lol ever. Seriously. You don't went Discussion. You just want all to fall in line with you.
K.
Every TES game had consequenses of killing everyone. Sure, you could do that... But all npcs except guards didnt respawn so it was effectivey the best way to screw up your game.
Also all previous TES games were single player, so no matter what you did in your own game, it could not affect other player's performance and immersion.
Now NPC's can die and respawn. Not sure how that has any relevance as the consequences would be identical.
Single player... MMO... makes no difference. You're arguing with very irrelevant substance.
Umm... No?
How it will be identical if even if you killed everyone, they will still respawn? It wont affect your gameplay in any negative way, you will be able to just kill a guard if he respawns. Now there is at least one consequence - you cant walk around in cities with high bounty. If they would remove guard immunity, you can just kill a guard and proceed. Seriously, name at least one reason to avoid bounties if guards would be killable.
In Morrowind though, you could screw up your entire main quest during a killing spree. Not really comparable.
The negative impact is a bounty which continues to grow and never goes away. How is that so hard to misunderstand? And until it's paid off, you have super guards attacking you on sight.
But what would be the purpose of that bounty? It will be jsut red numbers on your char screen.
If anything is killable, people will just team up and kill it. With insane dps builds many players have, it will be just a matter of seconds.
Imo the only way to make guards killable and keep bounties meaningful would be justice system pvp. So if you would kill a guard, it would respawn normally, without over 9000 buddies, but this would make you pvp flagged for some time.
The purpose is FOR GUARDS TO ATTACK YOU.0 -
Taternater✭✭✭No we shouldn't kill guards. Just because our soul shrivens lack souls, that doesn't mean we should be soulless.1
This discussion has been closed.