It's Time for a 3rd Resource Pool for Dodge, Block, and Bree Free

Makkir · August 2016

Dark Magic Tree

Mana Goo - Target cannot dodge roll for 3 seconds. Cost 3300 Magicka

Xeven · August 2016

Im fine with dodge rolling being a Stamina thing. Break free should use your max stat.

E-Zekiel · August 2016

I like this idea. I get tired of being unable to break roots and stuns because somebody stamina drained me.

rfennell_ESO · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Im fine with dodge rolling being a Stamina thing. Break free should use your max stat.

That's a much more reasonable solution.

Sandman929 · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Im fine with dodge rolling being a Stamina thing. Break free should use your max stat.

It's not just a question of break free. It's the problem of mitigation and damage scaling off of the same attribute.

Sandman929 · August 2016

People are really going out of their way to miss the larger point concerning 3 Attributes and overall game balance. Damage and Mitigation should not be scaled off of one of the three attributes, for magicka characters or stamina characters. That's not balance, nothing is sacrificed by piling all attribute points in one attribute to get both damage and mitigation.

MisterBigglesworth · August 2016

@RinaldoGandolphi

This is something I was advocating for on these forums back in 2014/2015 (before I lost all hope)

Some people at Tamriel Foundry noted back in 2013 that ESO (like Skyrim) had vastly simplified combat/stats, going from the much better 8 Attribute system of Oblivion and Morrowind... to the simplistic Health/Magic/Stam system we have now.

I would also like to add to this that we might as well also add class-specific resources in order to facilitate easier class balancing. For example, a Templar's "Sun Power" (a meter with it's own resource pool, it's own unique way to regenerate, it's own affect on mitigation, damage output, etc) is something that could be tweaked by the developers, rather than tweaking Spell Damage, which affects all classes simultaneously.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

Minno wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Right now there are two major issues with ESO from a balance stand point.(Class issues withstanding but thats a topic for another thread)

1. Health is useless
2. Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block are all tied to the same resource pool that increases Stamina Based damage and Stamina Based Healing.

This needs to be changed.

Health needs to be renamed Endurance, and it not only needs to determine your max health, but it also needs to be the base of the resource pool that determines how often you can dodge, block, and break free that is independent of stamina

Right now in open world PVP Crowd Control determines pretty much 99% of all fights, the 1st one out of stam(unable to CC break) is dead. Since this system is based on stamina, it gives far too much of an unfair advantage as a magic build must sacrifice damage if they wish to have larger stam pool to break free, Stam builds can simply stack everything into max stam and not only do they increase their damage and stamina based healing, but they also increase their ability/number of times they can dodge and break- free. Back when Shields lasted longer then 6 seconds, I was ok with this because Magic builds could keep shields up longer to even out their disadvantage of not being able to CC break, dodge, or block anywhere near as much as stam build.

Now however, the 6 sec duration has pretty much put magic builds into a hole they simply can't get out of. In a fight between 2 equally skilled players, its not a magic builds fight to win its a stam builds fight to lose. A magic build makes one mistake(dodges when he shouldn't") he is dead against any competent stam build. A stamina build can make multiple mistakes in dodging, etc and still win a fight. When you factor in that stamina abilities do more damage then their magic counterparts, and all stamina based class abilities are 20% cheaper in cost then their magic counterparts, and all stamina based weapons get a 20% cost reduction to their skills on top of med armor passives, its simply too lopsided.

You know i thought shields were just a bit over the top...i thought a 20 seconds was too long, 10 seconds would have been pretty fair. Even then magic builds would still be hard pressed. However leaving it at 6 seconds would be fine if Dodge, Block, and Break-free were determined by a3rd resource pool that has nothing to do with damage.

Simply put,
Health needs to be renamed Endurance

Dodge, Block, and Break Free no longer determined by stamina

the 3rd resource pool Endurance is governed by how much health and health recovery you have.

This means BOTH stamina and magic builds will have to give up damage(invest in health) if they wish to be able to dodge, block, or break-free more. This is the core crux of why stamina has been significantly better then magic since 1.6. Make this change and i think you can leave stamina damage alone. I think things would be pretty fair overall. Stam builds would still have Major Evasion, but it would put things in a more even leveled field...well about as even as it could be, nothing will be perfect mind you, but it would be a start.

thoughts?

By the way I'm glad someone is agreeing. It felt like very few were replying to my point about this, or were disinterested. My main issue with the way things are is that Stamina and Magicka are far too meaningful and active for mitigation, and health is just a passive dump stat. I think a lot of us who appreciate tanking bristle at this notion, while at the same time we don't want to see tanking become overpowered.

With the way certain builds overpower others or people trying different sets, I think more and more people are trying to soak up a bit more dmg in the last two patches compared to before. That's probably why many of us are now thinking of making health more viable

For some of us, like Rinaldo, they want a game that is spiritually close to the ES universe. Meaning this game should have another valance check where if you were a mage you shouldn't be able to do any of thing things a warrior or thief class should do and vice-versa.

This is exactly what I want as well.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

Delsskia wrote: »

Using health to break free and dodge roll would be a disaster. With all of the hard cc's, snares and poisons in the game, we'd only be helping enemies to kill us. I think it'd be better if dodge roll and break free used your highest secondary stat... Stam or Magicka - or - use a fourth stat. Call it Endurance, Energy, Shnookums or whatever.

When your choices are to die because, as a Magicka user, you don't have the Stam pool to get out of the 10 jillion cc's or to die because you gave away all your health trying to get out of the 10 jillion cc's, you're just screwed regardless.

Personally, I don't think any of these scenarios is the real answer to the problem. The problem is that there are 10 jillion cc's and they stack and they're spammable and there's no such thing as diminishing returns on them. I'd rather see Zos take all forms of cc away from classes and make specific forms of cc available in the weapons skill lines. Make them NOT stack (no more snare, root, fear, silence and stun at the same time). And, if you've been cc'd at all in the last 30 seconds, the next one lasts 1/2 the time and if cc'd again in the next 30 seconds then it lasts 1/4 of the time of the on the tooltip. At that point we become immune to cc's for 30 seconds. It also wouldn't be a bad idea to have escalating costs for cc's just as there are escalating costs for breaking free of them.

My idea actually deals with what you are speaking off. My original suggestion (I don't recall where I posted it specifically) speaks of having 2 bars, the Red bar (health) and the gold bar (endurance). Endurance would be derived from how much health you have. You would not lose health by cc breaking, that is preposterous. One resource being derived from the other is normal not only in Elder Scrolls but Fallout as well, and honestly it makes a lot of logical sense. Currently almost nothing scales with health apart from a couple of abilities. I think when people push toward magic or stamina it should put them closer on the scale of 'high damage' and when they push toward health it should push toward more 'sustain/toughness'. As it stands that is not necessarily true, which is why people have been thinking about how this can change.

Ishammael · August 2016

What is the point of magicka vs. Stamina if block, dodge, break free use a different stat pool? Exactly, there is no point for distinguishing them. That is, they both do the same thing: cast abilities.

That is why I made a thread a while ago about the stamina/magicka divide. It makes no internal game sense.

SirAndy · August 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

It's Time for a 3rd Resource Pool for Dodge, Block, and Bree Free

Been saying it for years (literally) ...

DHale · August 2016

Or just put the shields back to how they were. the good Sorcs adapted... Yeah dropping mines and standing there. Way to adapt!

MisterBigglesworth · August 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

What is the point of magicka vs. Stamina if block, dodge, break free use a different stat pool? Exactly, there is no point for distinguishing them. That is, they both do the same thing: cast abilities.

That is why I made a thread a while ago about the stamina/magicka divide. It makes no internal game sense.

Well, they could make Stamina itself be that "third resource" dedicated strictly to dodge/block/sprint... but that would mean abilities like Crit Charge consume magicka and do spell damage. Yes it can be done and it would work fine, but makes no "logical" sense.

I guess it's all kinda arbitrary in a world where heavy attacks restore stamina (instead of consuming it) and spells like Vigor heal you based on your stamina.

Ishammael · August 2016

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

What is the point of magicka vs. Stamina if block, dodge, break free use a different stat pool? Exactly, there is no point for distinguishing them. That is, they both do the same thing: cast abilities.

That is why I made a thread a while ago about the stamina/magicka divide. It makes no internal game sense.

Well, they could make Stamina itself be that "third resource" dedicated strictly to dodge/block/sprint... but that would mean abilities like Crit Charge consume magicka and do spell damage. Yes it can be done and it would work fine, but makes no "logical" sense.

I guess it's all kinda arbitrary in a world where heavy attacks restore stamina (instead of consuming it) and spells like Vigor heal you based on your stamina.

See that's the thing... What you describe is how the game was originally designed. Stamina was only ever meant to be a supplement, but it drove defensive mechanics. So, you sacrificed your defensive ability to use stamina skills. Everything was magicka. And that system made more sense.

Then the player base complained loudly about "stamina builds". And here we are today.

MisterBigglesworth · August 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

What is the point of magicka vs. Stamina if block, dodge, break free use a different stat pool? Exactly, there is no point for distinguishing them. That is, they both do the same thing: cast abilities.

That is why I made a thread a while ago about the stamina/magicka divide. It makes no internal game sense.

Well, they could make Stamina itself be that "third resource" dedicated strictly to dodge/block/sprint... but that would mean abilities like Crit Charge consume magicka and do spell damage. Yes it can be done and it would work fine, but makes no "logical" sense.

I guess it's all kinda arbitrary in a world where heavy attacks restore stamina (instead of consuming it) and spells like Vigor heal you based on your stamina.

See that's the thing... What you describe is how the game was originally designed. Stamina was only ever meant to be a supplement, but it drove defensive mechanics. So, you sacrificed your defensive ability to use stamina skills. Everything was magicka. And that system made more sense.

Then the player base complained loudly about "stamina builds". And here we are today.

Right, but I don't think there was EVER a time when 2H/DW/1H+Shield abilities used magic or scaled with spell damage (unless it was very early beta or something) so, yes Stamina was merely a supplement stats with a bunch of virtually useless weapon skills tied to it.

Other ideas, From March 4th:

They could definitely borrow a few ideas from some other MMOs.

Block meter from Neverwinter:

Dodge meter from GW2

Astanphaeus · August 2016

Putting dodgeroll and block on health (or whatever you want to call it)? Using (and therefor losing) health to decrease the amount of health you lose just seems silly to me, though I do agree that something needs to be done.

What I would like to see done is for all stamina heals to be removed from the game, no vigor, no rally heal. It would provide for a clear way in which different resource based builds handle incoming damage. If Stam builds want to heal themselves, they need to have some magicka, just as magicka users need some stam to dodgeroll, block, and cc break.

KenaPKK · August 2016

I disagree with the entire premise here. If anything, having to cast abilities from the same pool they use for dodge roll and break free should be a greater strain on stam classes. It's just not because everyone has so much excess sustain.

The two main imbalances in this game are overtuned stats via the CP system -- namely burst and healing and sustain -- and snares EVERYWHERE with no effective magicka snare immunity. Period.

OP sounds like he dodges or blocks too much.

Signed, a magicka player.

Vangy · August 2016

Like your idea but I only propose one change. All mitigation and defense should be based on health. NOT just block, dodge roll or break free.

Yes.

That means your heals, shields, resistances (to an extent) should scale of health. Anything NOT damage related should scale off health. Ie (the size of ur 3rd resource pool scales off max health and shielding/rolling/breaking free all costs this 3rd resoruce pool if that's clearer. Your healing and shields also scale off health)

What you thought the main stamina defence which is rolling and blocking can be swapped to a 3rd resource pool while your shields can happily scale of mag? No sir. Lump that into the 3rd resource pool too and you will have my vote. Healing too. You cant have a toon who can group heal and just simply swap gear to do DPS. You are going to have to reset your attributes the same way my tank has to when he goes from tank to DPS spec.

Do this and ill gladly give all of you 12 seconds of shield no problemo. Even 15 for the empowered morph.

This way, every single char, be it stamina, magicka, hybrid, tank, dps or healer has to make a trade off between defensive and offensive. Its like a soft cap without actually having soft caps! You cant be awesome at healing/tanking while being good at DPS. Yes that means you cant have a healer who can pull 20k DPS. Cos you are specced into health. You cant have a tank swap to a 2H and WB you to oblivion cos he is specced into health. You wont have those pesky templar DPS BOL spamming back to full life or that eager beaver nb vigor and cloak to reset fight. You wont have that 20k frag sorc slap on a 15k shield either. If you want to heal and DPS you will have to balance your build and we can get rid of that cyro 5k health buff too.

Animus-ESO · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I disagree with the entire premise here. If anything, having to cast abilities from the same pool they use for dodge roll and break free should be a greater strain on stam classes. It's just not because everyone has so much excess sustain.

The two main imbalances in this game are overtuned stats via the CP system -- namely burst and healing and sustain -- and snares EVERYWHERE with no effective magicka snare immunity. Period.

OP sounds like he dodges or blocks too much.

Signed, a magicka player.

Kena you missed the main point of the post, OP is saying that the combat system is flawed because you do not have to sacrifice max stat for defense. This created the problem of demi god players who can defend them selves as much as a tank and put of as much damage as a good DPS. But making your mitigation scale off health, you would be forced to sacrifice damage for survivability on a magica build AND stamina build. This would even out things greatly.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Makkir wrote: »

Dark Magic Tree

Mana Goo - Target cannot dodge roll for 3 seconds. Cost 3300 Magicka

Oh dang this would be so strong.

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I disagree with the entire premise here. If anything, having to cast abilities from the same pool they use for dodge roll and break free should be a greater strain on stam classes. It's just not because everyone has so much excess sustain.

The two main imbalances in this game are overtuned stats via the CP system -- namely burst and healing and sustain -- and snares EVERYWHERE with no effective magicka snare immunity. Period.

OP sounds like he dodges or blocks too much.

Signed, a magicka player.

Kena you missed the main point of the post, OP is saying that the combat system is flawed because you do not have to sacrifice max stat for defense. This created the problem of demi god players who can defend them selves as much as a tank and put of as much damage as a good DPS. But making your mitigation scale off health, you would be forced to sacrifice damage for survivability on a magica build AND stamina build. This would even out things greatly.

I didn't read past the premise, which targeted stamina specifically.

And there have been other posts proposing way more realistic fixes than this. Making a third resource bar for roll and block and dodge make magicka and stamina pointless. It's a silly idea.

Ishammael · August 2016

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Right, but I don't think there was EVER a time when 2H/DW/1H+Shield abilities used magic or scaled with spell damage (unless it was very early beta or something) so, yes Stamina was merely a supplement stats with a bunch of virtually useless weapon skills tied to it.

I should have been more clear (was typing from phone).

The weapon skill lines, you are correct, never cost mana. But they were also never intended to comprise the primary method player skills -- they were only ever supplements to class. The entire premise of a "stamina" build did not exist. Thus there was always an interplay between utilizing stamina for defense (block, dodge, etc) and the utilizing stamina for utility.

The "flaws" here were that this made "magicka" the only viable spec since it was better to save stamina for defense. But this was actually OK, in my opinion, because it made more internal sense for the game (and responds directly to the OP). The problem only arose because players want to run pure "stamina" specs. (Which was clearly an inferior choice at the time.)

My point is simple: the stamina/magicka spec divide (and imbalance) is purely artificial, created by the players, and exacerbated by ZOS (e.g. patch 1.6) for not clearly thinking through what made the most internal sense for the game.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Right, but I don't think there was EVER a time when 2H/DW/1H+Shield abilities used magic or scaled with spell damage (unless it was very early beta or something) so, yes Stamina was merely a supplement stats with a bunch of virtually useless weapon skills tied to it.

I should have been more clear (was typing from phone).

The weapon skill lines, you are correct, never cost mana. But they were also never intended to comprise the primary method player skills -- they were only ever supplements to class. The entire premise of a "stamina" build did not exist. Thus there was always an interplay between utilizing stamina for defense (block, dodge, etc) and the utilizing stamina for utility.

The "flaws" here were that this made "magicka" the only viable spec since it was better to save stamina for defense. But this was actually OK, in my opinion, because it made more internal sense for the game (and responds directly to the OP). The problem only arose because players want to run pure "stamina" specs. (Which was clearly an inferior choice at the time.)

My point is simple: the stamina/magicka spec divide (and imbalance) is purely artificial, created by the players, and exacerbated by ZOS (e.g. patch 1.6) for not clearly thinking through what made the most internal sense for the game.

No - it was awful for anyone that wanted to play a 'warrior' build. It never made sense to anyone who wanted to do that. People ran around with Shields and dresses for a reason, and it wasn't a logical system, that is for sure.

frozywozy · August 2016

Delsskia wrote: »

Using health to break free and dodge roll would be a disaster. With all of the hard cc's, snares and poisons in the game, we'd only be helping enemies to kill us. I think it'd be better if dodge roll and break free used your highest secondary stat... Stam or Magicka - or - use a fourth stat. Call it Endurance, Energy, Shnookums or whatever.

When your choices are to die because, as a Magicka user, you don't have the Stam pool to get out of the 10 jillion cc's or to die because you gave away all your health trying to get out of the 10 jillion cc's, you're just screwed regardless.

Personally, I don't think any of these scenarios is the real answer to the problem. The problem is that there are 10 jillion cc's and they stack and they're spammable and there's no such thing as diminishing returns on them. I'd rather see Zos take all forms of cc away from classes and make specific forms of cc available in the weapons skill lines. Make them NOT stack (no more snare, root, fear, silence and stun at the same time). And, if you've been cc'd at all in the last 30 seconds, the next one lasts 1/2 the time and if cc'd again in the next 30 seconds then it lasts 1/4 of the time of the on the tooltip. At that point we become immune to cc's for 30 seconds. It also wouldn't be a bad idea to have escalating costs for cc's just as there are escalating costs for breaking free of them.

I agree with what @Delsskia said. I don't think health shoud be used to cc break, but a 4th ressource should be made and it should be static (the same for everyone). I have had this in my signature for over a year and a half. I'm glad that some people are finally getting the message and thinking alike.

kevlarto_ESO · August 2016

I agree a third recourse pool is needed, for roll dodge and break free, a stamina based class will always be at a disadvantage as long as they have to use stamina for other things, magica toons do not have to worry about this, since dodge roll and break free does not affect their magika pool, but most magika toons have low stamina, with a third recourses pool call it endurance or something it would give both magika and stamina classes equal resources to doge roll and break free and such, maybe this should be a static number so it could not be manipulated by things like the cheat engine or broken game mechanics, I dunno just a thought.

Ishammael · August 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Right, but I don't think there was EVER a time when 2H/DW/1H+Shield abilities used magic or scaled with spell damage (unless it was very early beta or something) so, yes Stamina was merely a supplement stats with a bunch of virtually useless weapon skills tied to it.

I should have been more clear (was typing from phone).

The weapon skill lines, you are correct, never cost mana. But they were also never intended to comprise the primary method player skills -- they were only ever supplements to class. The entire premise of a "stamina" build did not exist. Thus there was always an interplay between utilizing stamina for defense (block, dodge, etc) and the utilizing stamina for utility.

The "flaws" here were that this made "magicka" the only viable spec since it was better to save stamina for defense. But this was actually OK, in my opinion, because it made more internal sense for the game (and responds directly to the OP). The problem only arose because players want to run pure "stamina" specs. (Which was clearly an inferior choice at the time.)

My point is simple: the stamina/magicka spec divide (and imbalance) is purely artificial, created by the players, and exacerbated by ZOS (e.g. patch 1.6) for not clearly thinking through what made the most internal sense for the game.

No - it was awful for anyone that wanted to play a 'warrior' build. It never made sense to anyone who wanted to do that. People ran around with Shields and dresses for a reason, and it wasn't a logical system, that is for sure.

Did you read paragraph two of my statement?
It made sense... For the game.
The feeling to be "warrior" is exactly that, a feeling. And it only existed because the players asked for it, e.g. what you just wrote.

Armitas · August 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Like your idea but I only propose one change. All mitigation and defense should be based on health. NOT just block, dodge roll or break free.

Yes.

That means your heals, shields, resistances (to an extent) should scale of health. Anything NOT damage related should scale off health. Ie (the size of ur 3rd resource pool scales off max health and shielding/rolling/breaking free all costs this 3rd resoruce pool if that's clearer. Your healing and shields also scale off health)

Here is one way you can hit everything, even shields, in a way where survival, sustain, and damage are not parallel or at least have artificial soft caps.

Damage - Scales from weapon/spell power and scales with stamina and magicka at 1/3 of it's current rate. Lower the effect of cost reduction and recovery in the CP tree. Make Magicka and stamina give recovery at a low rate. That way you are forced to recoup your recovery at the cost of weapon/spell power.

Shields - Shields scale from health. Hardened Ward continues to scale from Max Magicka which is now an inefficient damage source. (Kena)

Healing - No longer scales with weapon/spell power. Scales from max magicka and stamina at ~133%% of it's current rate. (% is approximate and intended to represent a value that retains group healing capacity. )

Blocking/Dodging - Dodge roll and block continue to consume stamina. Dodge roll reduction is removed from medium armor. Block and dodge have their cost reduced based on max health.

Here is how this might play out in the different roles.

Tank

Survival - High health means high manual defense (block/dodge) through cost reduction and health based shields
DPS - moderate damage from spell/weapon power, damage is held back due to low S/M pools from stacking health
Sustain - Moderate casting sustain due to points put into health rather than S/M pools from stacking health
Healing - Moderate due to low S/M pools from stacking health
Result - Someone who wants to mitigate damage loses max S/M for Max health and loses damage, healing and sustain

DPS

Survival - Low from only putting a small portion into health
DPS - High from spell and weapon power and moderate max S/M pools.
Sustain - Moderate from stacking spell/weapon damage over max S/M pools
Healing - Moderate from stacking spell/weapon damage over max S/M pools
Result - Someone who wants to do high damage loses Sustain and healing due to stacking spell/weapon power over resources, and loses manual defense by not stacking health

Healing

Survival - moderate manual defense from choosing max S/M over health
DPS - moderate from stacking max S/M pools over spell/weapon power
Sustain - High from stacking max S/M pools
Healing - High from stacking max S/M pools
Result - Someone who wants to heal loses manual defense from stacking max resources and loses damage from not stacking spell/weapon power

frozywozy · August 2016

@Armitas
I like pretty much everything except the Healing scaling off max magicka / stamina.
Healing should have its own independant stat.
Otherwise it's just another buff to redguard and high elf.

Armitas · August 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

@Armitas
I like pretty much everything except the Healing scaling off max magicka / stamina.
Healing should have its own independant stat.
Otherwise it's just another buff to redguard and high elf.

Thanks. Yeah that is the biggest weakness. It results in high healing and high sustain when it draws from the magicka pool that way. Separate would be better.

Vangy · August 2016

@Armitas

Like most of it except for hardened ward and healing both scaling off max mag.. Makes sorc too strong. Healing should have its own separate stat and scale off a 3rd resource pool.

thankyourat · August 2016

I think a easier change would be to give magic users longer cc immunity with a passive either in the magic champion tree or in the light armor passive. Something like after you cc break you gain an additional 1 second of cc immunity per piece of light armor. Because the problem isn't really magicka has a low stamina pool the problem is how skill less it is to drain a magicka users stamina pool. So with this change it would basically double how long a magicka user has cc immunity.