It's Time for a 3rd Resource Pool for Dodge, Block, and Bree Free

RinaldoGandolphi

Right now there are two major issues with ESO from a balance stand point.(Class issues withstanding but thats a topic for another thread)

1. Health is useless
2. Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block are all tied to the same resource pool that increases Stamina Based damage and Stamina Based Healing.

This needs to be changed.

Health needs to be renamed Endurance, and it not only needs to determine your max health, but it also needs to be the base of the resource pool that determines how often you can dodge, block, and break free that is independent of stamina

Right now in open world PVP Crowd Control determines pretty much 99% of all fights, the 1st one out of stam(unable to CC break) is dead. Since this system is based on stamina, it gives far too much of an unfair advantage as a magic build must sacrifice damage if they wish to have larger stam pool to break free, Stam builds can simply stack everything into max stam and not only do they increase their damage and stamina based healing, but they also increase their ability/number of times they can dodge and break- free. Back when Shields lasted longer then 6 seconds, I was ok with this because Magic builds could keep shields up longer to even out their disadvantage of not being able to CC break, dodge, or block anywhere near as much as stam build.

Now however, the 6 sec duration has pretty much put magic builds into a hole they simply can't get out of. In a fight between 2 equally skilled players, its not a magic builds fight to win its a stam builds fight to lose. A magic build makes one mistake(dodges when he shouldn't") he is dead against any competent stam build. A stamina build can make multiple mistakes in dodging, etc and still win a fight. When you factor in that stamina abilities do more damage then their magic counterparts, and all stamina based class abilities are 20% cheaper in cost then their magic counterparts, and all stamina based weapons get a 20% cost reduction to their skills on top of med armor passives, its simply too lopsided.

You know i thought shields were just a bit over the top...i thought a 20 seconds was too long, 10 seconds would have been pretty fair. Even then magic builds would still be hard pressed. However leaving it at 6 seconds would be fine if Dodge, Block, and Break-free were determined by a3rd resource pool that has nothing to do with damage.

Simply put,

• Health needs to be renamed Endurance
• Dodge, Block, and Break Free no longer determined by stamina
• the 3rd resource pool Endurance is governed by how much health and health recovery you have.

This means BOTH stamina and magic builds will have to give up damage(invest in health) if they wish to be able to dodge, block, or break-free more. This is the core crux of why stamina has been significantly better then magic since 1.6. Make this change and i think you can leave stamina damage alone. I think things would be pretty fair overall. Stam builds would still have Major Evasion, but it would put things in a more even leveled field...well about as even as it could be, nothing will be perfect mind you, but it would be a start.

thoughts?

Sallington

Agreed. Been saying this since launch. The best mitigation in the game (dodge rolls) heavily favor stamina builds.

They can also run faster, sprint longer and block more. If I sprint for more than a second or two on a magicka build, and I get hard cc'd, I'm dead.

Everyone should have the same "utility pool" for breaking CC and dodge rolling.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Making dodged attacks still inflict a % of the damage would be a better way to go.

Armitas

This would be amazing! It wouldn't just fix block/dodge it would fix that high hand damage problem that comes from not having a sacrifice to stacking damage.

They could even reuse the horse stamina bar for it if it would save them time. If they still wanted to keep the "feel of stamina" they could remove dodge roll cost reduction from medium armor and make max health reduce the cost of block and dodge. That would trim the upper end of dodge roll spam, it would leave the dodgey feel of stamina due to the large stamina pool, and also provide more dodge to magicka via health.

smokey13a

I don't think using health to dodge/break free would work very well at all however they could just add in a magic equivalent/version of dodge/break free, that would solve the issue and would be a lot easier and faster to implement.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Agreed on health needs to be utalized but break free and all that favors stamina? Yea what game you playing cquse as Wronel said "want to do it invest everything into it". Such as blocking if you do not have everything with sturdy with 100 points into shadow ward and maxed ot SnS with enchantments your stamina is gonna drain fast same eith sprinting and rolling cause rolling cost does stack with eash use.

So how does break free and all that favor stamina when you use it all doing said action leaving no stamina for attacks ?

NikaTheCat

Interesting idea, although it would make more sense to rename Health to something else instead of Endurance, because Endurance and Stamina mean basically the same thing.

Sandman929

Health definitely needs utility. There's no reason for mag or stam builds to balance their attribute allocation. But beyond just dodge roll and break free, I think health should have utility that would be attractive to tanks, and boost the utility of tank builds. Reduced snare duration/effectiveness, reduced DoT damage/duration, reduced AoE damage, increased healing received, increased dodge chance, etc.
Obviously not all of these suggestions, but these would be benefits that would make pure tanks more effective in PvP, and would add some incentive for non-tanks to invest to varying degrees in health.

Overall damage would go down because builds favoring pure mag or stam would be at a disadvantage to those who invest a modest amount in the new utilities that Health would provide.

Thelon

obvious imbalance is obvious
@Wrobel

Aquanova

OP, tell that to all the stam characters I've come across that can dodge roll, heal with vigor and rally, run like the wind, cc break and still have enough stamina to kill people pursuing them.

With the right set up you can do all those things. Stamina builds are currently the FOTM! And you want to empower them?

Is this troll or what? Like magicka templar claiming they are the weakest class?

Sandman929

Aquanova wrote: »

OP, tell that to all the stam characters I've come across that can dodge roll, heal with vigor and rally, run like the wind, cc break and still have enough stamina to kill people pursuing them.

With the right set up you can do all those things. Stamina builds are currently the FOTM! And you want to empower them?

Is this troll or what? Like magicka templar claiming they are the weakest class?

I don't think you're understanding the point. Removing a stam builds mitigation from their damage attribute doesn't empower them. There are other factors that need to be looked at with ridiculous sustain, but separating mitigation from damage for stam and magicka builds doesn't empower either, it forces players to balance damage and mitigation rather than piling all resources into one attribute to get both.

rfennell_ESO

If magicka builds had access to the same amount of dodging, break free and block they would be unkillable.

Some already are without those things...

Sandman929

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

If magicka builds had access to the same amount of dodging, break free and block they would be unkillable.

Some already are without those things...

It's not the same access without those magicka builds investing in Health, or whatever the refactored attribute would be called. The point is that all forms of mitigation should be scaling from attributes that aren't used for damage.

KisoValley

Aquanova wrote: »

OP, tell that to all the stam characters I've come across that can dodge roll, heal with vigor and rally, run like the wind, cc break and still have enough stamina to kill people pursuing them.

With the right set up you can do all those things. Stamina builds are currently the FOTM! And you want to empower them?

Is this troll or what? Like magicka templar claiming they are the weakest class?

It was only the TG patch where all you saw was magicka builds, not just magicka NB's but everyone was playing magicka builds. Only stam classes you saw were stamplars and the odd stamDK.

TG patch wasn't that long ago bro.

Sandman929

If a magicka build wanted to be able to dodge, break free, have massive shields, they would have to invest in the refactored "Health" attribute and remove varying levels of attribute points from Magicka. If a stamina build wanted to be able to dodge, break free, etc, they would have to invest in Health as well to get the kind of benefits discussed in the thread.

The point is to create a separation between damage and mitigation so that players will have to balance their investments into both.

rfennell_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

If magicka builds had access to the same amount of dodging, break free and block they would be unkillable.

Some already are without those things...

It's not the same access without those magicka builds investing in Health, or whatever the refactored attribute would be called. The point is that all forms of mitigation should be scaling from attributes that aren't used for damage.

Lol like shields and heals?

I'm for things being balanced, but really... giving certain magicka builds access to same type of dodge rolling, blocking and break free as stamina is about as far from balance as you can get.

Many magicka builds are unlimited resource, very few stamina builds are... Last I checked the only stamina builds that are truly unlimited in resources and still lethal are all cheats.

juhasman

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Agreed on health needs to be utalized but break free and all that favors stamina? Yea what game you playing cquse as Wronel said "want to do it invest everything into it". Such as blocking if you do not have everything with sturdy with 100 points into shadow ward and maxed ot SnS with enchantments your stamina is gonna drain fast same eith sprinting and rolling cause rolling cost does stack with eash use.

So how does break free and all that favor stamina when you use it all doing said action leaving no stamina for attacks ?

I strongly reccomend to look at cp's. There is passive that lowers You stamina based skills costs by 80% for next 3 seconds after break free. So after break free You can use 2-3 free stamina skills like for example caltroops etc. That helps to manage stamina a lot , and used by skilled players allows to perfomr really well with not so high stam regens especially as redguard. Also as stamina user You can lower things like block/roll dodge/sprint/break free in cp's. It's like giving magicka users a passive that lowers costs of magicka based shields and heals.

Pandorii

I really like this idea in theory. It would bring back the competitive edge of magicka classes. Unfortunately, I would have to test it to see if it works in practice.

Sandman929

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

If magicka builds had access to the same amount of dodging, break free and block they would be unkillable.

Some already are without those things...

It's not the same access without those magicka builds investing in Health, or whatever the refactored attribute would be called. The point is that all forms of mitigation should be scaling from attributes that aren't used for damage.

Lol like shields and heals?

I'm for things being balanced, but really... giving certain magicka builds access to same type of dodge rolling, blocking and break free as stamina is about as far from balance as you can get.

Many magicka builds are unlimited resource, very few stamina builds are... Last I checked the only stamina builds that are truly unlimited in resources and still lethal are all cheats.

You keep saying "the same access"...are you reading any of the responses? All builds would need to invest in Health for that access. Magicka wouldn't be somehow special, and yes heals and shields would have to stop scaling with the same attributes that are used for damage, just like dodges and CC breaks.

Sandman929

Investing in mitigations (heals, shields, dodge rolling, CC breaks) results in a smaller investment in damage. That's balancing.

juhasman

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

If magicka builds had access to the same amount of dodging, break free and block they would be unkillable.

Some already are without those things...

It's not the same access without those magicka builds investing in Health, or whatever the refactored attribute would be called. The point is that all forms of mitigation should be scaling from attributes that aren't used for damage.

Lol like shields and heals?

I'm for things being balanced, but really... giving certain magicka builds access to same type of dodge rolling, blocking and break free as stamina is about as far from balance as you can get.

Many magicka builds are unlimited resource, very few stamina builds are... Last I checked the only stamina builds that are truly unlimited in resources and still lethal are all cheats.

LOL so You checked it last before 1.6 ? Or You just did not checked and writed something random to prove You're right? Stam builds are now very lethal and have very good resource managment.

Sandman929

Obviously this wouldn't be the only change needed, practically everything in game would have to be balanced around separating mitigation from damage. So it's a pipe dream, in reality.

Robbmrp

Sandman929 wrote: »

Health definitely needs utility. There's no reason for mag or stam builds to balance their attribute allocation. But beyond just dodge roll and break free, I think health should have utility that would be attractive to tanks, and boost the utility of tank builds. Reduced snare duration/effectiveness, reduced DoT damage/duration, reduced AoE damage, increased healing received, increased dodge chance, etc.
Obviously not all of these suggestions, but these would be benefits that would make pure tanks more effective in PvP, and would add some incentive for non-tanks to invest to varying degrees in health.

Overall damage would go down because builds favoring pure mag or stam would be at a disadvantage to those who invest a modest amount in the new utilities that Health would provide.

This^^^ people should have to sacrifice one area for the other. If you want defense, you should have to lose out on damage or healing. The game has to much of the best of everything right now. It's too easy to create a build that mitigates tons of damage while allowing you do do as much if not more damage than your attacker. This is what NO CP campaigns look like so this is a really big issue.

CP's just compound the issue even more. This imbalance is spiraling downward at an alarming rate. If something isn't done soon, there won't be any PVP left as everyone won't want to bother with it. Who wants to fight someone with Emp like power when they aren't even Emp.

Yes, I could create a build like this and destroy those without it like a lot of people have but that's not fun to me. I enjoy a challenge instead of some 1 hit and done fight.

Minno

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

If magicka builds had access to the same amount of dodging, break free and block they would be unkillable.

Some already are without those things...

It's not the same access without those magicka builds investing in Health, or whatever the refactored attribute would be called. The point is that all forms of mitigation should be scaling from attributes that aren't used for damage.

Lol like shields and heals?

I'm for things being balanced, but really... giving certain magicka builds access to same type of dodge rolling, blocking and break free as stamina is about as far from balance as you can get.

Many magicka builds are unlimited resource, very few stamina builds are... Last I checked the only stamina builds that are truly unlimited in resources and still lethal are all cheats.

Shields should be tied to health as well, given most classes have access to shield just like everyone has access to dodge rolling. And the skills reviewed and balanced to function as the primary resource for tanky classes (heals Magicka, DPS stam, tank health).

Only issue I have is how exactly does the ability cost if under health? Does everyone have a base health and you only increase/decrease "endurance" on ability? Does health regenerate faster to compensate since you don't do any dmg with this resource? What happens if all shields are health based; is the cost under health or stam/Magicka and if the later, is it fair to say high cost/limited Magicka pool is a balanced way to execute the change?

Lots to think about, but we are playing an RPG (which historically have been the most complex games to play in gaming aside from turn based strategy games. Adding another resource pool should have been a no brainer and traditionally loved for the complexity it adds to any fight encounter).

Sandman929

Minno wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

If magicka builds had access to the same amount of dodging, break free and block they would be unkillable.

Some already are without those things...

It's not the same access without those magicka builds investing in Health, or whatever the refactored attribute would be called. The point is that all forms of mitigation should be scaling from attributes that aren't used for damage.

Lol like shields and heals?

I'm for things being balanced, but really... giving certain magicka builds access to same type of dodge rolling, blocking and break free as stamina is about as far from balance as you can get.

Many magicka builds are unlimited resource, very few stamina builds are... Last I checked the only stamina builds that are truly unlimited in resources and still lethal are all cheats.

Shields should be tied to health as well, given most classes have access to shield just like everyone has access to dodge rolling. And the skills reviewed and balanced to function as the primary resource for tanky classes (heals Magicka, DPS stam, tank health).

Only issue I have is how exactly does the ability cost if under health? Does everyone have a base health and you only increase/decrease "endurance" on ability? Does health regenerate faster to compensate since you don't do any dmg with this resource? What happens if all shields are health based; is the cost under health or stam/Magicka and if the later, is it fair to say high cost/limited Magicka pool is a balanced way to execute the change?

Lots to think about, but we are playing an RPG (which historically have been the most complex games to play in gaming aside from turn based strategy games. Adding another resource pool should have been a no brainer and traditionally loved for the complexity it adds to any fight encounter).

Costs would have to be reevaluated, but skills would still cost magicka or stamina. Effectiveness scales with max Health. There would be a lot to think about and under such a setup, practically all skills would need to be tuned. But IMO, the only way to balance a game like this is to separate pools used for damage and mitigation. There's no balance if you get both damage and mitigation based of the same resource.

zyk

An alternative would be to offer more abilities that perform these functions, some of which would be Magicka.

For example, there could be a tab on the Skills menu where players can select which abilities are used for Break-free, Dodge, Sprint, Stealth and Block functions. There can be Magicka and Stamina versions.

I would enjoy this added dimension to builds. Perhaps for some builds I'd want to keep Block Stamina based, but switch Dodge to a Magicka version.

dodgehopper_ESO

I agree. This is what I've been saying for the last couple of months on various posts regarding balance and tanking. I've wanted to post it in my old Health-balance thread but its been a number of months since I've added to that one. At any regard there needs to be a greater pressure for using health and this I feel is a very good way to promote that, or at least one possible good way. My original thread suggested this idea, although I had refined it to this 'gold bar' concept only in the last couple of months. I'm going to cross link your thread with mine @RinaldoGandolphi which hopefully cross pollenate some good ideas.
[url="http://"]https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/211441/a-suggestion-towards-balance-between-health-magicka-and-stamina#latest[/url]

dodgehopper_ESO

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Right now there are two major issues with ESO from a balance stand point.(Class issues withstanding but thats a topic for another thread)

1. Health is useless
2. Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block are all tied to the same resource pool that increases Stamina Based damage and Stamina Based Healing.

This needs to be changed.

Health needs to be renamed Endurance, and it not only needs to determine your max health, but it also needs to be the base of the resource pool that determines how often you can dodge, block, and break free that is independent of stamina

Right now in open world PVP Crowd Control determines pretty much 99% of all fights, the 1st one out of stam(unable to CC break) is dead. Since this system is based on stamina, it gives far too much of an unfair advantage as a magic build must sacrifice damage if they wish to have larger stam pool to break free, Stam builds can simply stack everything into max stam and not only do they increase their damage and stamina based healing, but they also increase their ability/number of times they can dodge and break- free. Back when Shields lasted longer then 6 seconds, I was ok with this because Magic builds could keep shields up longer to even out their disadvantage of not being able to CC break, dodge, or block anywhere near as much as stam build.

Now however, the 6 sec duration has pretty much put magic builds into a hole they simply can't get out of. In a fight between 2 equally skilled players, its not a magic builds fight to win its a stam builds fight to lose. A magic build makes one mistake(dodges when he shouldn't") he is dead against any competent stam build. A stamina build can make multiple mistakes in dodging, etc and still win a fight. When you factor in that stamina abilities do more damage then their magic counterparts, and all stamina based class abilities are 20% cheaper in cost then their magic counterparts, and all stamina based weapons get a 20% cost reduction to their skills on top of med armor passives, its simply too lopsided.

You know i thought shields were just a bit over the top...i thought a 20 seconds was too long, 10 seconds would have been pretty fair. Even then magic builds would still be hard pressed. However leaving it at 6 seconds would be fine if Dodge, Block, and Break-free were determined by a3rd resource pool that has nothing to do with damage.

Simply put,

• Health needs to be renamed Endurance
• Dodge, Block, and Break Free no longer determined by stamina
• the 3rd resource pool Endurance is governed by how much health and health recovery you have.

This means BOTH stamina and magic builds will have to give up damage(invest in health) if they wish to be able to dodge, block, or break-free more. This is the core crux of why stamina has been significantly better then magic since 1.6. Make this change and i think you can leave stamina damage alone. I think things would be pretty fair overall. Stam builds would still have Major Evasion, but it would put things in a more even leveled field...well about as even as it could be, nothing will be perfect mind you, but it would be a start.

thoughts?

By the way I'm glad someone is agreeing. It felt like very few were replying to my point about this, or were disinterested. My main issue with the way things are is that Stamina and Magicka are far too meaningful and active for mitigation, and health is just a passive dump stat. I think a lot of us who appreciate tanking bristle at this notion, while at the same time we don't want to see tanking become overpowered.

Delsskia

Using health to break free and dodge roll would be a disaster. With all of the hard cc's, snares and poisons in the game, we'd only be helping enemies to kill us. I think it'd be better if dodge roll and break free used your highest secondary stat... Stam or Magicka - or - use a fourth stat. Call it Endurance, Energy, Shnookums or whatever.

When your choices are to die because, as a Magicka user, you don't have the Stam pool to get out of the 10 jillion cc's or to die because you gave away all your health trying to get out of the 10 jillion cc's, you're just screwed regardless.

Personally, I don't think any of these scenarios is the real answer to the problem. The problem is that there are 10 jillion cc's and they stack and they're spammable and there's no such thing as diminishing returns on them. I'd rather see Zos take all forms of cc away from classes and make specific forms of cc available in the weapons skill lines. Make them NOT stack (no more snare, root, fear, silence and stun at the same time). And, if you've been cc'd at all in the last 30 seconds, the next one lasts 1/2 the time and if cc'd again in the next 30 seconds then it lasts 1/4 of the time of the on the tooltip. At that point we become immune to cc's for 30 seconds. It also wouldn't be a bad idea to have escalating costs for cc's just as there are escalating costs for breaking free of them.

Minno

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Right now there are two major issues with ESO from a balance stand point.(Class issues withstanding but thats a topic for another thread)

1. Health is useless
2. Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block are all tied to the same resource pool that increases Stamina Based damage and Stamina Based Healing.

This needs to be changed.

Health needs to be renamed Endurance, and it not only needs to determine your max health, but it also needs to be the base of the resource pool that determines how often you can dodge, block, and break free that is independent of stamina

Right now in open world PVP Crowd Control determines pretty much 99% of all fights, the 1st one out of stam(unable to CC break) is dead. Since this system is based on stamina, it gives far too much of an unfair advantage as a magic build must sacrifice damage if they wish to have larger stam pool to break free, Stam builds can simply stack everything into max stam and not only do they increase their damage and stamina based healing, but they also increase their ability/number of times they can dodge and break- free. Back when Shields lasted longer then 6 seconds, I was ok with this because Magic builds could keep shields up longer to even out their disadvantage of not being able to CC break, dodge, or block anywhere near as much as stam build.

Now however, the 6 sec duration has pretty much put magic builds into a hole they simply can't get out of. In a fight between 2 equally skilled players, its not a magic builds fight to win its a stam builds fight to lose. A magic build makes one mistake(dodges when he shouldn't") he is dead against any competent stam build. A stamina build can make multiple mistakes in dodging, etc and still win a fight. When you factor in that stamina abilities do more damage then their magic counterparts, and all stamina based class abilities are 20% cheaper in cost then their magic counterparts, and all stamina based weapons get a 20% cost reduction to their skills on top of med armor passives, its simply too lopsided.

You know i thought shields were just a bit over the top...i thought a 20 seconds was too long, 10 seconds would have been pretty fair. Even then magic builds would still be hard pressed. However leaving it at 6 seconds would be fine if Dodge, Block, and Break-free were determined by a3rd resource pool that has nothing to do with damage.

Simply put,

• Health needs to be renamed Endurance
• Dodge, Block, and Break Free no longer determined by stamina
• the 3rd resource pool Endurance is governed by how much health and health recovery you have.

This means BOTH stamina and magic builds will have to give up damage(invest in health) if they wish to be able to dodge, block, or break-free more. This is the core crux of why stamina has been significantly better then magic since 1.6. Make this change and i think you can leave stamina damage alone. I think things would be pretty fair overall. Stam builds would still have Major Evasion, but it would put things in a more even leveled field...well about as even as it could be, nothing will be perfect mind you, but it would be a start.

thoughts?

By the way I'm glad someone is agreeing. It felt like very few were replying to my point about this, or were disinterested. My main issue with the way things are is that Stamina and Magicka are far too meaningful and active for mitigation, and health is just a passive dump stat. I think a lot of us who appreciate tanking bristle at this notion, while at the same time we don't want to see tanking become overpowered.

With the way certain builds overpower others or people trying different sets, I think more and more people are trying to soak up a bit more dmg in the last two patches compared to before. That's probably why many of us are now thinking of making health more viable

For some of us, like Rinaldo, they want a game that is spiritually close to the ES universe. Meaning this game should have another valance check where if you were a mage you shouldn't be able to do any of thing things a warrior or thief class should do and vice-versa.

Sandman929

No one is suggesting using health to break free or dodge roll. Cost reduction of break free and dodge roll should be tied to max health along with every other factor having to do with mitigating damage. In fact I don't think anyone is suggesting that anything costs health, only that damage mitigations should be scaled off of max health