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A Suggestion towards Balance between Health, Magicka, and Stamina

dodgehopper_ESO
dodgehopper_ESO
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It occurs to me that the benefit of Magicka and Stamina is often higher than Health, because the only real benefit of health is avoiding getting one-shot, whereas health and magicka actually represent utility and even survivability in the form of blocking, dodge rolling, shielding, etc. This is why you come across some sorcerers who are extremely tanky and yet hit like a ton of bricks. It occurs to me that this game is slowly making life more and more annoying for a purist Tank build. I suggest a balance in the right direction would be to do for Health what they've done to Magicka and Stamina. Higher magicka means higher scaled spell damage. Higher Stamina means higher scaled weapon damage. I believe that damage mitigation abilities should scale based off of health. This would mean spells/techniques that boost armor, spell resistance, and shielding. The damage component can remain the same on some of these, such that spike armor would boost armor higher on a higher health character, but the reflected damage would be lower. What this would mean is greater options for players. Additionally, I think that a higher health attribute should also potentially mitigate some of the cost of blocking, as it is the 'tank' stat. While Stamina is the resource that is sapped while blocking and bashing, I do believe that how good you are at using the skill ought to be in some way derived off of Health. At any regard, I hope this is something that the developers give some thought to.

On another note, I definitely think they ought to reconsider how Sun Shield functions. Sun Shield in the early phase of the game was a very high dps shield, and therefore only lasted 6 seconds. People were wiping people out in Cyrodiil with this ability so the solution was to nerf the damage. The problem is that now they're doublenerfing the skill based on a generalized approach to Shields in Cyrodiil yet again. At this phase in the game I'm not even sure the ability will be worth putting on your bar in 1.7. I have a suggestion that perhaps they should simply rethink this ability. Sun Shield could reflect damage to scale in line with the output of Boundless Lightning or Spike Armor. I realize these two are armor-based spells but their reflect functions both represent the secondary effect of their power. Sun Shield operates much the same way, so I see no reason why they could not simply do a low level melee range 'pulse damage' or 'melee reflect' on Sun Shield. Additionally, they could stand to push the duration up to be in line with similar abilities from the other classes.
US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    Anyone interested in weighing in on this idea?
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • Elder_III
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    I would support a serious and in depth look at the first proposal in regards to making damage reduction abilities scale off Health. It might potentially be problematic as far as being too powerful if someone were to put all points into Health and have multiple insane stackable shields on top of it (of course they would hit like powdered sugar and not be able to block much at all). I would like to see shields being revamped to allow for fewer dmg shields at once; perhaps along with them scaling off of Health. Magicka DPS will scream murder if it happened, but it is an interesting idea that I'd like to see testing and numbers on.
    Semi retired from the trading aspects of the game.
  • Gilvoth
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    sounds like an excellent idea. im all for it, and it seems well thought out.
  • RooBeeO
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    I agree that health should do more, with restrictions of course.

    Health should increase the defenses on the class. Be it AC and / or resists. Doing so you lose the upper damage from going stam or magic.

    It should not help the cost of blocking, rolling, or shields etc, due to skills related to the other two attributes are deducted from them. Whats the point of asking for health to do more if there affecting the other two?

    I see you're point, however it's better to just have health increase the defense, side of things.
  • Castile
    Castile
    You're balancing in the wrong direction IMO. The problem isn't that health doesn't do enough, the problem is stamina and magicka do too much. Damage (and even defense IE barriers) shouldn't scale to your resource pools at all. Stamina and magicka should only affect what your current actions are, how well you perform actions needs to be applied to some other commodity such as gear, buffs, enchantments, perhaps even a new stat system altogether. ESO's current stat system is kind of a bad joke.
  • Van_0S
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    Castile wrote: »
    You're balancing in the wrong direction IMO. The problem isn't that health doesn't do enough, the problem is stamina and magicka do too much. Damage (and even defense IE barriers) shouldn't scale to your resource pools at all. Stamina and magicka should only affect what your current actions are, how well you perform actions needs to be applied to some other commodity such as gear, buffs, enchantments, perhaps even a new stat system altogether. ESO's current stat system is kind of a bad joke.

    Well, I have a better idea!
    Why not nerf everything of players abilities,regen,survivability and exp.ZOS, some of us(not me) wants the game to be hard as dark souls and in PvP no one can do a 1 shot kill only the NPCs. :D
    Edited by Van_0S on August 30, 2015 5:23AM
  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    Elder_III wrote: »
    I would support a serious and in depth look at the first proposal in regards to making damage reduction abilities scale off Health. It might potentially be problematic as far as being too powerful if someone were to put all points into Health and have multiple insane stackable shields on top of it (of course they would hit like powdered sugar and not be able to block much at all). I would like to see shields being revamped to allow for fewer dmg shields at once; perhaps along with them scaling off of Health. Magicka DPS will scream murder if it happened, but it is an interesting idea that I'd like to see testing and numbers on.

    That's not a bad idea actually. Much like 'major expedition' or 'minor savagery' or the like, there is really only a 'major' and 'minor' form of buff you can get. Why not do the same thing with shields? I've got no problem with that and it would make balance a lot easier. They might want to make a third form of shield which is set-based perhaps, but otherwise I really don't see any problem with that suggestion.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    Castile wrote: »
    You're balancing in the wrong direction IMO. The problem isn't that health doesn't do enough, the problem is stamina and magicka do too much. Damage (and even defense IE barriers) shouldn't scale to your resource pools at all. Stamina and magicka should only affect what your current actions are, how well you perform actions needs to be applied to some other commodity such as gear, buffs, enchantments, perhaps even a new stat system altogether. ESO's current stat system is kind of a bad joke.

    I actually considered this as a possibility. One could argue for the notion that gear sets themselves would provide the only damage bonuses (along with enchantments to jewelry). This isn't such a bad idea really, because people with higher magicka or stamina pools would still have the advantage in sustainability and the ability to keep firing. Either route could really work I think, although I think you'll get a lot more bad feedback from players at this stage of the game if you go with decoupling magicka/stamina to actual damage (not that I would complain).
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    This is the revival of an earlier thread but I've revised some of my thinking behind this, or at least refined it.

    I think Health needs to be a core stat for game mechanics just like Magicka and Stamina. Its pretty clear from my past statements I feel this way. The reason I feel this way is in large part because there are also clearly 3 playstyles and 3 attributes with an associated playstyle. Magicka represents magic dps play 'the Mage'. Stamina represents stamina dps play 'The Thief'. Health represents tanking play 'The Warrior'. I used the 3 core constellations on purpose here because I think they are the heart of the philosophy behind the game.

    Currently Health is a dead stat that does nothing more than stave off impending death. Damage stats can help protect yourself and others, they can help you deal significantly more damage, and they can help in maneuvers. I think this needs to change a little bit mechanically. Dodging, Blocking, CC-breaker, CC-Duration Resistance, Sprinting could all get a cost reduction for having high health. This would mean the high health character could use mouse-based defense more effectively than a low health character.

    I also believe that the efficacy of Tanking powers (Hardened Ward, Blazing Shield, Spike Armor, Rune Focus, Obsidian Shield, the shadow passive that boosts ar/sr, bound lightning, immovable, bound armor, etc) should scale with health as well. Specifically, the tanking component of these skills. In this way the tank component would be stronger on high health tanks, but the damage component would be stronger on dps builds (example: the damage component of 'lightning form' would scale with either magic or stamina, but the armor rating and spell resistance component would scale with health). This would deal with the problem today in pvp where everyone is a tank, except for tanks who have absolutely no damage, and significantly lower damage output to a dps.

    Finally, I suggest that they add stronger stat returns from light and heavy attacks on a high health character, and that they consider adding some basic mouse-based combinations to the light-heavy attack paradigm. Skyrim is a great example of this, and so is DCUO. This could also allow them to add more interesting passives to the weapon trees, to create mouse click based combos and procs.

    Ultimately my vision is to have tanks be THE WARRIOR they were meant to be both thematically, in gameplay, and in balance. I'd love to hear what you guys think of the refining elements I've added.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • UltimaJoe777
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    Whether Health actually contributes to Armor Ratings and stuff or not is irrelevant to me. I have personally always favored having high HP in every game I play so I intend to have high HP in this game too. My main's build is actually 50% Health and 25% Magicka and Stamina. I let my Dual Wielding and Medium Armor cover the rest and Magicka is mostly for non-damaging skills hence the small investment. In case anyone is wondering, I am a Nightblade so yes Cloak (went for Shadowy Disguise since I use Purge) is part of that investment lol along with Siphoning Attacks, Dark Shades, and Efficient Purge. Everything else uses Stamina.
    Edited by UltimaJoe777 on October 9, 2015 7:55PM
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    Whether Health actually contributes to Armor Ratings and stuff or not is irrelevant to me. I have personally always favored having high HP in every game I play so I intend to have high HP in this game too. My main's build is actually 50% Health and 25% Magicka and Stamina. I let my Dual Wielding and Medium Armor cover the rest and Magicka is mostly for non-damaging skills hence the small investment. In case anyone is wondering, I am a Nightblade so yes Cloak (went for Shadowy Disguise since I use Purge) is part of that investment lol along with Siphoning Attacks, Dark Shades, and Efficient Purge. Everything else uses Stamina.

    I understand your point of view, I'm just saying I think they could do a better job of it and that it would also inherently balance the system better. A balanced build like yours would have more tanking than a high damage stat build, but less damage than someone who focused more in damage stats. In other words it would be more fair in all directions Damage / Heal <----> Tank. The problem with Magic/Stamina is that it is giving double benefit, and that is what I'm trying to point out. I think this is what is what has been harming the balance of the game currently and in the past. My proposal tries to push The Warrior spec both in theme and balance, and I think it would be good all around.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241383/a-kiss-way-to-make-health-a-decent-attribute#latest Here is a link to @RAGUNAnoOne 's post with a different take on how to solve this issue. I found it interesting.

    Essentially @RAGUNAnoOne is suggesting that general regeneration rates will also scale with health, which would promote general sustain, and thereby make such a character more tanky. I like it as a potential option so wanted to add it here.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    One variation on the theme that I've been discussing in other forum posts is that we need a derived stat (either Health or Endurance). I recommend calling the derived stat Endurance and making it a Gold Bar. This derived bar would be used for dodge/block/ccbreaker/sprint/crouch/etc. There is good precedent for this, even the Fallout games use Endurance in sprinting (please don't forget so did the TES games). This would allow them to normalize costs for Stamina abilities and Magicka abilities, as well as normalize Weapon/Spell Damage with each other and gear sets. The other thing I like about this suggestion is that it would promote the importance of health, and make the push into Health/Tanking more meaningful without being overwhelming. It would also mean that DPS builds, whether magicka or stamina would have roughly the same pool for these actions. Magic would be able to cast more affordable shields, and stamina would be able to utilize more affordable dodge rolls, cc breaks, etc. They would be more balanced though with respect to one another though in this instance, particularly if Magicka remains the realm of damage shields. <Some content quoted from another post, I'm putting it here to simply add to this conversation>.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
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