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Bashev · August 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up.

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

You still can attack a DK even when wings are up. How many Sorc skills are reflectable, 2? Shards and Overloard. You can use other skills too.

Shard, force shock. My 2 most important attacks and both get completely negated and

So you complain that DK counter one and only one of the Sorc skills? Grow up, that is why we will never have a balance.

AverageJo3Gam3r · August 2016

@Dracane I agree with you. It would be ridiculous to say one ability (mines) shuts down a class. Because they can be played around and they can be buggy. The same with wings. How you felt when I implied mines should be nerfed because they shut down my playstyle is the same way a mDK feels when someone says that about wings. Personally, I think both mines and wings should receive buffs--wings should grant minor expedition for 4 seconds, and mines should either have a damage buff or snare after the stun ends when someone triggers them.

Mines and wings are two of my favorite PvP abilities--it provides interesting chess-like counter play that is better than the boring spambush surprise attack incap strike.

Dracane · August 2016

Bashev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up.

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

You still can attack a DK even when wings are up. How many Sorc skills are reflectable, 2? Shards and Overloard. You can use other skills too.

Shard, force shock. My 2 most important attacks and both get completely negated and

So you complain that DK counter one and only one of the Sorc skills? Grow up, that is why we will never have a balance.

Yes, I do. Because crystal shard is the breed and butter of Mag Sorcs. You can't kill without crystal shard= immortal DK
It's not my fault that we have nothing else in our arsenal besides frags. Maybe this shows you how pitiful Sorc damage is.

But I think the worst thing, is that force shock is reflectable. It's a freaking beam according to its visual

psychotic13 · August 2016

mDKs are strong against sorcs yes, but I do agree that's all they're good at any other class will most likely destroy them.

AverageJo3Gam3r · August 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up.

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

You still can attack a DK even when wings are up. How many Sorc skills are reflectable, 2? Shards and Overloard. You can use other skills too.

Shard, force shock. My 2 most important attacks and both get completely negated and

So you complain that DK counter one and only one of the Sorc skills? Grow up, that is why we will never have a balance.

Yes, I do. Because crystal shard is the breed and butter of Mag Sorcs. You can't kill without crystal shard= immortal DK
It's not my fault that we have nothing else in our arsenal besides frags. Maybe this shows you how pitiful Sorc damage is.

But I think the worst thing, is that force shock is reflectable. It's a freaking beam according to its visual

Force shock isn't just reflectable, it counts as three so a light attack+crushing shock+frag should guarantee the frag hits as long as the DK doesn't reapply wings in between (which gets expensive).

Dracane · August 2016

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane I agree with you. It would be ridiculous to say one ability (mines) shuts down a class. Because they can be played around and they can be buggy. The same with wings. How you felt when I implied mines should be nerfed because they shut down my playstyle is the same way a mDK feels when someone says that about wings. Personally, I think both mines and wings should receive buffs--wings should grant minor expedition for 4 seconds, and mines should either have a damage buff or snare after the stun ends when someone triggers them.

Mines and wings are two of my favorite PvP abilities--it provides interesting chess-like counter play that is better than the boring spambush surprise attack incap strike.

You didn't exactly say, that mines should be nerfed

and I wouldn't really care. I'm a Sorc, I am used to getting nerfed.
I rarely use mines myself, I could play without them.

Dracane · August 2016

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up.

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

You still can attack a DK even when wings are up. How many Sorc skills are reflectable, 2? Shards and Overloard. You can use other skills too.

Shard, force shock. My 2 most important attacks and both get completely negated and

So you complain that DK counter one and only one of the Sorc skills? Grow up, that is why we will never have a balance.

Yes, I do. Because crystal shard is the breed and butter of Mag Sorcs. You can't kill without crystal shard= immortal DK
It's not my fault that we have nothing else in our arsenal besides frags. Maybe this shows you how pitiful Sorc damage is.

But I think the worst thing, is that force shock is reflectable. It's a freaking beam according to its visual

Force shock isn't just reflectable, it counts as three so a light attack+crushing shock+frag should guarantee the frag hits as long as the DK doesn't reapply wings in between (which gets expensive).

OMG. Please, it was bad enough so far. But now even wrong informations ? Please go.
Force shock counts as 1 projectile, that was even stated in the patchnotes of 1.6
Wings was nerfed at this point and force shock only counts as 1 projectile since then.

Force shock also only counts as 1 hit for elemental drain (formerly 3 hits)
If you are a DK, then you would definately know this. But I'm sure you got used to your immortality VS Sorcs. I as a Sorc know how it feels to get all my shocks and frags reflected back at me.

Armitas · August 2016

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up. The range of flame lash is 8 meters for example, you don't even have to enter the mines to do all your attacks. So please, don't get me started on mines. They do nothing

Don't stand in the middle of the mines, stand behind the mine circle and rotate around them as they pop. If they get through both sides streak through across a remaining mine plane then drop another set. Mines are not working for you because you are not using them correctly not because they "do nothing". This is basic sorc stuff.

Dracane · August 2016

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up. The range of flame lash is 8 meters for example, you don't even have to enter the mines to do all your attacks. So please, don't get me started on mines. They do nothing

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

Don't stand in the middle of the mines, stand behind the mine circle and rotate around them as they pop. If the get though both sides streak through across a remaining mine plane.

And then ? You can easily go around and root me. Then when I streak, I will look in the wrong direction and since you have wings up, I cannot attack you. I need to start a lightning heavy tick in order to turn in your direction until I can start channeling. And until then, you will already start scourging again.

I have lots of 1v1 experience and I know how this dance goes. it's a nightmare dance since the game exists and it never changes. The dance between DKs and Sorcs and will always remain a nuisance.

Essiaga · August 2016

The way i see it there are 2 skills that DK has that the player base will complain about when talking DK buffs/Balance ...

Reflect ...

Talons ...

Reflect ... If you want to have more DPS you can't be immune to projectiles. You're making someone else DPS your DPS. A Sorc dropping 12k CF at you is going to have to defend against that them self. You just had to hit a button. With Eclipse i've got to find the guy and cast the spell on him before he casts and then he can CC break it. You don't have to have a clue where he is. This skill is super powerful and can account for a ton of damage on mag or stam builds. You can do 40k damage with 1 button ...

It's situational. The stamina meta where every ones got a 2-hander devalues this awesome skill a bit. The single reflect has made this skill so OP that many people just gave up on projectile builds (that and stam/nb fotm). Sorcs packed it in. I gave up on Dark Flare/Defensive Stance combo. It's a hard skill to balance and sadly ZOS failed you there. Here's hoping they can fix it.

Talons ... Another great skill and an annoying skill. So reflect keeps them from staying away from you and this one keeps them from being able to hit you from up close. It's not that is the most powerful. It's just frustrating. It's the game of inches. You root. I break it. You root. I break it. You root. i break it. Eventually I run out of stam or I WANT to die and you win.

I haven't played a DK in PVP for more then a few mins. I didn't PVP in it's glory day and avoided it at launch as the fotm. Currently I lack the imaginations to see it as anything more then slow unless it's a stam build. It's got great utility. Just seems very limited for the kind of fights I see my self in. I agree it needs reworked.

Raiborn · August 2016

One word: Talons.

I HATE running into DK's just because of this. Use one of your knockdowns/stuns to proc their break free, then just root the suckers, and they can't roll away because they just burnt half their stamina breaking free -.- (okay, so not always the case, but you get my drift). Drop Banner, spam the dots, and you win

DK isn't a disengage class like the NB/sorc. You gotta go 'balls deep', and don't think for half a second that you're going to run away. Make them freak and burn resources on their escapes so you're keeping up the offensive/damage.

Bring friends who can heal you out/dive with you.

Build-wise, I guess I haven't said much... for the mDK, AoE's seem to be where it's at, while the sDK definitely has the better damage output in duels with how stupid weapon damage is right now. So if you're trying to be a duelist on your mDK, you might want to rethink your play style. Every class/loadout has its playstyle, and mDK class skills (stave/guild/etc skills are universal so not discussing) are geared towards group diving, cc, and fire everywhere in my humble yet accurate opinion.

[My mTemplar suffers similarly - my damage output is garbage, but I'm a fantastic support

I avoid 1v1's like they're the plague and just sustain until help arrives, and DK's have great/better sustain too.]

Armitas · August 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up. The range of flame lash is 8 meters for example, you don't even have to enter the mines to do all your attacks. So please, don't get me started on mines. They do nothing

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

Don't stand in the middle of the mines, stand behind the mine circle and rotate around them as they pop. If the get though both sides streak through across a remaining mine plane.

And then ? You can easily go around and root me. Then when I streak, I will look in the wrong direction and since you have wings up, I cannot attack you. I need to start a lightning heavy tick in order to turn in your direction until I can start channeling. And until then, you will already start scourging again.

I have lots of 1v1 experience and I know how this dance goes. it's a nightmare dance since the game exists and it never changes. The dance between DKs and Sorcs and will always remain a nuisance.

What did I say? Rotate around it. If the dk goes right you go left. This is sorc basics. Watch some sorc vids because there is a lot that is not immediately obvious on how to use sorc skills.

If you are using your mines like you are supposed to, behind them and facing your target, you will all ready be facing the right direction. When you land drop mines and you are again facing the right direction to get behind them. Then turn. If you turn slow up your turn speed.

Don't bring malubeth into this, that is not a dk skill and is available to anyone.

Armitas · August 2016

This is why you never bring up pvp in a non pvp forum section.

IxskullzxI · August 2016

Saying that you can't attack a dk while wings is up is ridiculous. I see what you mean it can be annoying, but do you slot your entire skill bar? Ults? Or do you only have frags and crushing shock slotted?

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

Dracane wrote: »

If you get hit by crystal shard, then you are a bad Dragonknight. A Sorcerer can't kill a dragonknight if you don't mess up very very hard.

Dks have the second best health restoration in pvp after templar and the deadliest dps. Sure, your only burst combo is petrify and meteor. But that's enough to kill when you do it right.
To me, Dragonknight is still the most dangerous and annoying opponent after Magicka templars.

I would cry tears of happiness if my force shock would hit for the damage of your lava whip.
What DK could use in terms of pvp, is a bursty ability that they can combine with meteor. Maybe it's just because I am a Sorcerer and get completely countered by DKs. But from my point of view, DK is too strong and needs no buffs at all.
I will start solo pvping my magicka DK soon. Maybe this will change my opinion.

But if DK gets buffed, then scales really need a nerf. Reducing it to 2 seconds, but let it reflect an infinite number of projectiles again.

@dracane I disagree with this suggestion. I would much rather see them give the reflect its old full duration (like 25-30 seconds) with a 33% chance to reflect.

Another point I'd like to mention is that mDK's can shut down archers pretty hard as well with the way reflect works for them (Excluding Bombard of course).

Cronopoly · August 2016

In this thread both Magicka Sorc's and Magicka DK's are here sniping at each other while Stamina classes are eating popcorn laughing their behinds off.

Magicka DK's are basically in the same spot as Magicka Sorcs though in this thread there seems to be a race towards the bottom. "I'm worse off!", "No you have a counter to one of my attacks so I'm at the bottom"....kids kids

Both classes suffer from lack of PVP Tactical Pressure when against Stamina classes in PVP who don't have to get stressed at all over quick repositioning via sprint, dodgeroll, ccbreak, & insta heals Hots with Rally, Vigor. All from one resource pool that synergizes nicely. Too nice one could say.

Again Both Magicka Sorcs's and DK's share the same problems and its not each other. Both seem to be forced into Destro staves for range damage as class abilities are quite lacking in that dept. Both have PVE great class abilities. PVP not so much.

If someone can tell me how to survive burst of an incoming Stamina class: At 28 meters shuffle,dodgeroll,rally-->Gapclose, start swinging Wrecking blow, Dawnbreaker or, Incapacitating Strike.

Both Magicka DK's and Sorcs are in trouble in close range with Stamina classes whose Stamina based skillsets provide Massive Burst by design using the faulty assumption that Ranged abilities should hit less as there's some travel times in between for melee Stamina toons.

Range means nothing if you either don't have any ranged class damage abilities (DK), or in the case of a Sorc, they do only Dot damage that's easily fully negated by HOT stamina mechanics. Except of course decent damage procs.

Missing spell: "Deadeye"
At ranged distance Magicka classes need (imo) an (anti-christ) spell of Accuracy/To-Hit with the same duration as Shuffle with a 25% better chance to hit the target > 8 meters.

Now It's a Stamina world. 2 wrongs apparently make a right.

Magicka - Pride before the fall.
1: Light Amor wearing DK Tanks were unkillable gods of permablocking, chain Talons CCing death dealling in PVP and PVE for a long time.
2: Against all that was foretold by those on PTS, Alchemist, ProxyDet, Vicious Death was allowed to all be "live" for months...Zerg killing it was told, except the Zergs used it and just shutdown competitive PVP. smh
3. Sheild stacking Sorcs and dual stacking of shields by other classes could magically negate alot of damage frustrating Stamina classes in melee range.

Stamina - "It's our time to shine."
1. Magicka shields not worth stacking plus 6 seconds of duration.
2. Perma dodge is back via Shuffle/dodgeroll - CP points, armor traits, and sets make it too easy with NO accuracy Counter, what's not to love.
3. Burst at range and melee.

Snipe+Wrecking Blow+ Ult = kiss your but goodbye Magicka classes

.

TL:DR - Months from now this will still be a topic. - Reroll Stamina while /singing "let it go, let it go"... Face it Magicka is a lost cause now in the foreseeable future. OP shields were a crutch preventing mSorcs and mDK's from feeling the imbalance of not having enough defense provided by a decent stamina pool for ccbreak/ dodgeroll, sprint in PVP. Now that shields are gone, the Onion layer is peeled back, the true issue surfaces. Cannot hit half of anything and you are mostly a sitting duck. DK's are largely immoble, and Sorcs streak is useful mostly to run away...

OT:
Tactically any Vamp can negate mine damage easily by Misting over them if they choose with negligible damage. Doing this in combat takes practice of course but can be done easily. It's niche but just another tactic worth mentioning being that someone brought it up.

Dracane · August 2016

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Saying that you can't attack a dk while wings is up is ridiculous. I see what you mean it can be annoying, but do you slot your entire skill bar? Ults? Or do you only have frags and crushing shock slotted?

I'm a pet sorc

I'm a bit limited with my available skills.
I use curse, lightning heavy attacks and my pets.

In a planned 1v1, I don't even use bolt escape. I feel more offensive when I just stand there and do my thing. The stun of bolt escape is more a problem

Dracane · August 2016

Cronopoly wrote: »

In this thread both Magicka Sorc's and Magicka DK's are here sniping at each other while Stamina classes are eating popcorn laughing their behinds off.

Magicka DK's are basically in the same spot as Magicka Sorcs though in this thread there seems to be a race towards the bottom. "I'm worse off!", "No you have a counter to one of my attacks so I'm at the bottom"....kids kids

Both classes suffer from lack of PVP Tactical Pressure when against Stamina classes in PVP who don't have to get stressed at all over quick repositioning via sprint, dodgeroll, ccbreak, & insta heals Hots with Rally, Vigor. All from one resource pool that synergizes nicely. Too nice one could say.

Again Both Magicka Sorcs's and DK's share the same problems and its not each other. Both seem to be forced into Destro staves for range damage as class abilities are quite lacking in that dept. Both have PVE great class abilities. PVP not so much.

If someone can tell me how to survive burst of an incoming Stamina class: At 28 meters shuffle,dodgeroll,rally-->Gapclose, start swinging Wrecking blow, Dawnbreaker or, Incapacitating Strike.

Both Magicka DK's and Sorcs are in trouble in close range with Stamina classes whose Stamina based skillsets provide Massive Burst by design using the faulty assumption that Ranged abilities should hit less as there's some travel times in between for melee Stamina toons.

Range means nothing if you either don't have any ranged class damage abilities (DK), or in the case of a Sorc, they do only Dot damage that's easily fully negated by HOT stamina mechanics. Except of course decent damage procs.

Missing spell: "Deadeye"
At ranged distance Magicka classes need (imo) an (anti-christ) spell of Accuracy/To-Hit with the same duration as Shuffle with a 25% better chance to hit the target > 8 meters.

Now It's a Stamina world. 2 wrongs apparently make a right.

Magicka - Pride before the fall.
1: Light Amor wearing DK Tanks were unkillable gods of permablocking, chain Talons CCing death dealling in PVP and PVE for a long time.
2: Against all that was foretold by those on PTS, Alchemist, ProxyDet, Vicious Death was allowed to all be "live" for months...Zerg killing it was told, except the Zergs used it and just shutdown competitive PVP. smh
3. Sheild stacking Sorcs and dual stacking of shields by other classes could magically negate alot of damage frustrating Stamina classes in melee range.

Stamina - "It's our time to shine."
1. Magicka shields not worth stacking plus 6 seconds of duration.
2. Perma dodge is back via Shuffle/dodgeroll - CP points, armor traits, and sets make it too easy with NO accuracy Counter, what's not to love.
3. Burst at range and melee. Snipe+Wrecking Blow+ Ult = kiss your but goodbye Magicka classes .

TL:DR - Months from now this will still be a topic. - Reroll Stamina while /singing "let it go, let it go"... Face it Magicka is a lost cause now in the foreseeable future. OP shields were a crutch preventing mSorcs and mDK's from feeling the imbalance of not having enough defense provided by a decent stamina pool for ccbreak/ dodgeroll, sprint in PVP. Now that shields are gone, the Onion layer is peeled back, the true issue surfaces. Cannot hit half of anything and you are mostly a sitting duck. DK's are largely immoble, and Sorcs streak is useful mostly to run away...

OT:
Tactically any Vamp can negate mine damage easily by Misting over them if they choose with negligible damage. Doing this in combat takes practice of course but can be done easily. It's niche but just another tactic worth mentioning being that someone brought it up.

Well spooken. Thank you for this.
We're forgetting the true enemy.

But the hatred between Sorcs and DKs is so much older than the hate between magicka and stamina

They're ancient enemies.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

In this thread both Magicka Sorc's and Magicka DK's are here sniping at each other while Stamina classes are eating popcorn laughing their behinds off.

Magicka DK's are basically in the same spot as Magicka Sorcs though in this thread there seems to be a race towards the bottom. "I'm worse off!", "No you have a counter to one of my attacks so I'm at the bottom"....kids kids

Both classes suffer from lack of PVP Tactical Pressure when against Stamina classes in PVP who don't have to get stressed at all over quick repositioning via sprint, dodgeroll, ccbreak, & insta heals Hots with Rally, Vigor. All from one resource pool that synergizes nicely. Too nice one could say.

Again Both Magicka Sorcs's and DK's share the same problems and its not each other. Both seem to be forced into Destro staves for range damage as class abilities are quite lacking in that dept. Both have PVE great class abilities. PVP not so much.

If someone can tell me how to survive burst of an incoming Stamina class: At 28 meters shuffle,dodgeroll,rally-->Gapclose, start swinging Wrecking blow, Dawnbreaker or, Incapacitating Strike.

Both Magicka DK's and Sorcs are in trouble in close range with Stamina classes whose Stamina based skillsets provide Massive Burst by design using the faulty assumption that Ranged abilities should hit less as there's some travel times in between for melee Stamina toons.

Range means nothing if you either don't have any ranged class damage abilities (DK), or in the case of a Sorc, they do only Dot damage that's easily fully negated by HOT stamina mechanics. Except of course decent damage procs.

Missing spell: "Deadeye"
At ranged distance Magicka classes need (imo) an (anti-christ) spell of Accuracy/To-Hit with the same duration as Shuffle with a 25% better chance to hit the target > 8 meters.

Now It's a Stamina world. 2 wrongs apparently make a right.

Magicka - Pride before the fall.
1: Light Amor wearing DK Tanks were unkillable gods of permablocking, chain Talons CCing death dealling in PVP and PVE for a long time.
2: Against all that was foretold by those on PTS, Alchemist, ProxyDet, Vicious Death was allowed to all be "live" for months...Zerg killing it was told, except the Zergs used it and just shutdown competitive PVP. smh
3. Sheild stacking Sorcs and dual stacking of shields by other classes could magically negate alot of damage frustrating Stamina classes in melee range.

Stamina - "It's our time to shine."
1. Magicka shields not worth stacking plus 6 seconds of duration.
2. Perma dodge is back via Shuffle/dodgeroll - CP points, armor traits, and sets make it too easy with NO accuracy Counter, what's not to love.
3. Burst at range and melee. Snipe+Wrecking Blow+ Ult = kiss your but goodbye Magicka classes .

TL:DR - Months from now this will still be a topic. - Reroll Stamina while /singing "let it go, let it go"... Face it Magicka is a lost cause now in the foreseeable future. OP shields were a crutch preventing mSorcs and mDK's from feeling the imbalance of not having enough defense provided by a decent stamina pool for ccbreak/ dodgeroll, sprint in PVP. Now that shields are gone, the Onion layer is peeled back, the true issue surfaces. Cannot hit half of anything and you are mostly a sitting duck. DK's are largely immoble, and Sorcs streak is useful mostly to run away...

OT:
Tactically any Vamp can negate mine damage easily by Misting over them if they choose with negligible damage. Doing this in combat takes practice of course but can be done easily. It's niche but just another tactic worth mentioning being that someone brought it up.

Well spooken. Thank you for this.
We're forgetting the true enemy.

But the hatred between Sorcs and DKs is so much older than the hate between magicka and stamina
They're ancient enemies.

Perhaps they are enemies, but they should not be. There are a lot of ways they could change this. I personally think they ought to put a 'gold bar' based upon health called 'Endurance' as a nod to previous TES games. This derived bar would be used for dodge/block/ccbreaker/sprint/crouch/etc. There is good precedent for this, even the Fallout games use Endurance in sprinting (please don't forget so did the TES games). This would allow them to normalize costs for Stamina abilities and Magicka abilities, as well as normalize Weapon/Spell Damage with each other and gear sets. The other thing I like about this suggestion is that it would promote the importance of health, and make the push into Health/Tanking more meaningful without being overwhelming. It would also mean that DPS builds, whether magicka or stamina would have roughly the same pool for these actions. Magic would be able to cast more affordable shields, and stamina would be able to utilize more affordable dodge rolls, cc breaks, etc. They would be more balanced though with respect to one another though in this instance, particularly if Magicka remains the realm of damage shields.

Cronopoly · August 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Perhaps they are enemies, but they should not be. There are a lot of ways they could change this. I personally think they ought to put a 'gold bar' based upon health called 'Endurance' as a nod to previous TES games. This derived bar would be used for dodge/block/ccbreaker/sprint/crouch/etc. There is good precedent for this, even the Fallout games use Endurance in sprinting (please don't forget so did the TES games). This would allow them to normalize costs for Stamina abilities and Magicka abilities, as well as normalize Weapon/Spell Damage with each other and gear sets. The other thing I like about this suggestion is that it would promote the importance of health, and make the push into Health/Tanking more meaningful without being overwhelming. It would also mean that DPS builds, whether magicka or stamina would have roughly the same pool for these actions. Magic would be able to cast more affordable shields, and stamina would be able to utilize more affordable dodge rolls, cc breaks, etc. They would be more balanced though with respect to one another though in this instance, particularly if Magicka remains the realm of damage shields.

Hey you! You git on outta here with that common sense and truth, this ain't no place for that stuff in this here parts.

mook-eb16_ESO · August 2016

I see one magicka dk with firestaff who's no 1 in pvp points on a certain campaign and hits very hard with heavy attack, I guess he's using molten armaments (Charge your weapons with volcanic power to temporarily increase the damage of your heavy attack 40%, with damage increased further against low health targets. >Damage bonus is increased against low health targets )+ elegant set+20% + cp. in the appropriate trees and of course heavy attack is magicka dk execute btw.

potirondb16_ESO · August 2016

R4B0N3 wrote: »

Magicka Dragonknights are terrible in PVP, they have no advantages whatsoever and no matter how much time and effort I put into this character it always turns out the same, me on my back wishing I was any class other then a Dragonknight. I'm sure people out there will say "yeah but you have Dragon Fire Scale and Take Flight" I say to those people so what, Take Flight hardly does any damage these days and it is an ultimate, Dragon Fire Scale is good against Sorcerers sometimes but we have nothing that can help us in a fight, nothing that makes us stand out as a class, we have pathetic shields and laughable healing moves, only one solid DPS move which is Flame Lash but that doesn't do anywhere near the damage a Crystal Fragments would do. We have an arsenal of moves that are not much good for anything PVP related!

Nightblades can go invisible at any given time, it has to be the most unfair class in the game! they stalk you and wait for the perfect moment to Ambush you then they Mass Hysteria you and if you somehow get back on you're feet to fight back they are gone! creating the space they need to ambush you again and all you can do is sit there and wait! talk about unfair, how are you supposed to fight someone who can disappear and then reappear whenever they feel like it?

Sorcerers have got shields for days and sure they have been nurfed a bit but they are still stronger then ever! almost impossible to do any damage with the shields they have, I hit one guy with everything I had and I didn't do a single bit of damage to him because he had his shields on, They have got Crystal Fragments that I've seen do 20k+ damage to people and can streak right through you and make hard to do anything but take more Crystal Fragments because you cant move.

Templars now are the new hot topic it seems with infinite heals and good DPS using Puncturing Sweeps over and over and Radiant Destruction that does insane damage and if you are lucky enough to get their health almost down they simply flick their wrists and get all their health right back, so all the effort you just spent getting the upper hand goes straight out of the window with a flick of the wrists.

Actually I do have seen some magika dk, doing REALLY good for themself, as part of a small-man group. Though they never had the capacity with their build to be efficient soloer... but other then that in group they were really strong...

And also in PVE they really kick ass !

Armitas · August 2016

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

I see one magicka dk with firestaff who's no 1 in pvp points on a certain campaign and hits very hard with heavy attack, I guess he's using molten armaments (Charge your weapons with volcanic power to temporarily increase the damage of your heavy attack 40%, with damage increased further against low health targets. >Damage bonus is increased against low health targets )+ elegant set+20% + cp. in the appropriate trees and of course heavy attack is magicka dk execute btw.

You are looking at some old information that is no longer correct. And you will get wrecked and dodged trying to charge a heavy weave against a stam build.

juhasman · August 2016

Bashev wrote: »

2 years ago we (magivka DKs) were gods in PvP. If anyone at that time had tell me that we gonna be the worst i would never believe him/her. @Wrobel what did you do?

Who would belive that time stam sorc will be high in ranking ?

juhasman · August 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

But if DK gets buffed, then scales really need a nerf. Reducing it to 2 seconds, but let it reflect an infinite number of projectiles again.

At 2 seconds that would be all you could do. It's better at 4 seconds and 4 projectiles than 2 seconds with infinite because you at least have time between to do some manual damage.

It's supposed to be a nerf afterall.
The thing is, that in a 1v1 environment, Wings offer an immunity against projectiles that's way too long.
At least you get something in return for a reduced duration. A luxury that Sorcs did not have It's not like the cost of shields was reduced by 70% to match the duration nerf.

I would say other idea. Scales reflect 4 projectiles for 4 seconds but also applies 6 sec debuff and if You'll use scales again during that debuff time scales will reflect 1 projectile less down to 1. So You need to choose keep 2 seconds gap between recasts or end reflecting only 1 projectile with 1 scales use.

Dracane · August 2016

juhasman wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

But if DK gets buffed, then scales really need a nerf. Reducing it to 2 seconds, but let it reflect an infinite number of projectiles again.

At 2 seconds that would be all you could do. It's better at 4 seconds and 4 projectiles than 2 seconds with infinite because you at least have time between to do some manual damage.

It's supposed to be a nerf afterall.
The thing is, that in a 1v1 environment, Wings offer an immunity against projectiles that's way too long.
At least you get something in return for a reduced duration. A luxury that Sorcs did not have It's not like the cost of shields was reduced by 70% to match the duration nerf.

I would say other idea. Scales reflect 4 projectiles for 4 seconds but also applies 6 sec debuff and if You'll use scales again during that debuff time scales will reflect 1 projectile less down to 1. So You need to choose keep 2 seconds gap between recasts or end reflecting only 1 projectile with 1 scales use.

A decent idea, would at least make Stam DKs less OP. But Magicka DKs will probably not mind at all.

juhasman · August 2016

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up. The range of flame lash is 8 meters for example, you don't even have to enter the mines to do all your attacks. So please, don't get me started on mines. They do nothing

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

Don't stand in the middle of the mines, stand behind the mine circle and rotate around them as they pop. If the get though both sides streak through across a remaining mine plane.

And then ? You can easily go around and root me. Then when I streak, I will look in the wrong direction and since you have wings up, I cannot attack you. I need to start a lightning heavy tick in order to turn in your direction until I can start channeling. And until then, you will already start scourging again.

I have lots of 1v1 experience and I know how this dance goes. it's a nightmare dance since the game exists and it never changes. The dance between DKs and Sorcs and will always remain a nuisance.

What did I say? Rotate around it. If the dk goes right you go left. This is sorc basics. Watch some sorc vids because there is a lot that is not immediately obvious on how to use sorc skills.

If you are using your mines like you are supposed to, behind them and facing your target, you will all ready be facing the right direction. When you land drop mines and you are again facing the right direction to get behind them. Then turn. If you turn slow up your turn speed.

Don't bring malubeth into this, that is not a dk skill and is available to anyone.

Rotate around them LOL . If mDK is a vampire (which most atm is) he can just use mist and eat all mag sorc mines for a breakfast and take almost no dmg and no root from it. And mag sorc cannot allow himself to spam mines over and over it's expensive skill with 3 seconds time to arm. Just to let You know I dont keep any class side I just want to see game ballanced.

NBrookus · August 2016

A mag sorc that is unhappy fighting a mag DK can simply streak away from the fight and go fight someone else. The mag DK does not have the option of disengaging. Instead, mag DK can reflect those attacks at least for a while -- keeping wings up 100% is punishing on the magicka pools.

So the DK is stuck in the fight, whether they like it or not. What is a DK supposed to do? Sit there and eat frags and overload spam? While being unable to match the mobility or a sorc that can streak to reposition to get out of melee range or can camp mines? DKs have to have a counter to hard hitting ranged attacks.

Nerfing wings or increasing the scaling cost of an already very expensive skill is just QQ from mag sorcs. When I'm on my sorc and run into a mag DK that is good with wings and has the sustain to keep them up, I just walk away.

juhasman · August 2016

Dracane wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

But if DK gets buffed, then scales really need a nerf. Reducing it to 2 seconds, but let it reflect an infinite number of projectiles again.

At 2 seconds that would be all you could do. It's better at 4 seconds and 4 projectiles than 2 seconds with infinite because you at least have time between to do some manual damage.

It's supposed to be a nerf afterall.
The thing is, that in a 1v1 environment, Wings offer an immunity against projectiles that's way too long.
At least you get something in return for a reduced duration. A luxury that Sorcs did not have It's not like the cost of shields was reduced by 70% to match the duration nerf.

I would say other idea. Scales reflect 4 projectiles for 4 seconds but also applies 6 sec debuff and if You'll use scales again during that debuff time scales will reflect 1 projectile less down to 1. So You need to choose keep 2 seconds gap between recasts or end reflecting only 1 projectile with 1 scales use.

A decent idea, would at least make Stam DKs less OP. But Magicka DKs will probably not mind at all.

Lets add minor sorcery (10% more spell dmg ) or some other magicka related buff and mdk should be happy also.

Airyus · August 2016

MDK's = ESO hard mode. Play it or don't. Everyone knows about it already and has known about it since after 1.6. All I can suggest is that if you really want to play a MDK then find your place, and have fun. Some people do it in groups, some do it solo with very creative builds.

Crying for buffs to MDK or nefs to any other class won't help you have fun.