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Dracane

NBrookus wrote: »

A mag sorc that is unhappy fighting a mag DK can simply streak away from the fight and go fight someone else. The mag DK does not have the option of disengaging. Instead, mag DK can reflect those attacks at least for a while -- keeping wings up 100% is punishing on the magicka pools.

So the DK is stuck in the fight, whether they like it or not. What is a DK supposed to do? Sit there and eat frags and overload spam? While being unable to match the mobility or a sorc that can streak to reposition to get out of melee range or can camp mines? DKs have to have a counter to hard hitting ranged attacks.

Nerfing wings or increasing the scaling cost of an already very expensive skill is just QQ from mag sorcs. When I'm on my sorc and run into a mag DK that is good with wings and has the sustain to keep them up, I just walk away.

When the sorc spams overload on you, you know that all it takes is to push one button and the Sorc will kill himself.
Oh poor DK, you have suuuuuch hard times.

And if you walk away as a Sorc, then you already gave up and giving up means victory for the opponent. So you admit that DK is unkillable for you. I can't blame you of course

Armitas

juhasman wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up. The range of flame lash is 8 meters for example, you don't even have to enter the mines to do all your attacks. So please, don't get me started on mines. They do nothing

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

Don't stand in the middle of the mines, stand behind the mine circle and rotate around them as they pop. If the get though both sides streak through across a remaining mine plane.

And then ? You can easily go around and root me. Then when I streak, I will look in the wrong direction and since you have wings up, I cannot attack you. I need to start a lightning heavy tick in order to turn in your direction until I can start channeling. And until then, you will already start scourging again.

I have lots of 1v1 experience and I know how this dance goes. it's a nightmare dance since the game exists and it never changes. The dance between DKs and Sorcs and will always remain a nuisance.

What did I say? Rotate around it. If the dk goes right you go left. This is sorc basics. Watch some sorc vids because there is a lot that is not immediately obvious on how to use sorc skills.

If you are using your mines like you are supposed to, behind them and facing your target, you will all ready be facing the right direction. When you land drop mines and you are again facing the right direction to get behind them. Then turn. If you turn slow up your turn speed.

Don't bring malubeth into this, that is not a dk skill and is available to anyone.

Rotate around them LOL . If mDK is a vampire (which most atm is) he can just use mist and eat all mag sorc mines for a breakfast and take almost no dmg and no root from it. And mag sorc cannot allow himself to spam mines over and over it's expensive skill with 3 seconds time to arm. Just to let You know I dont keep any class side I just want to see game ballanced.

Is mist a dk skill?

Dracane

Armitas wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up. The range of flame lash is 8 meters for example, you don't even have to enter the mines to do all your attacks. So please, don't get me started on mines. They do nothing

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

Don't stand in the middle of the mines, stand behind the mine circle and rotate around them as they pop. If the get though both sides streak through across a remaining mine plane.

And then ? You can easily go around and root me. Then when I streak, I will look in the wrong direction and since you have wings up, I cannot attack you. I need to start a lightning heavy tick in order to turn in your direction until I can start channeling. And until then, you will already start scourging again.

I have lots of 1v1 experience and I know how this dance goes. it's a nightmare dance since the game exists and it never changes. The dance between DKs and Sorcs and will always remain a nuisance.

What did I say? Rotate around it. If the dk goes right you go left. This is sorc basics. Watch some sorc vids because there is a lot that is not immediately obvious on how to use sorc skills.

If you are using your mines like you are supposed to, behind them and facing your target, you will all ready be facing the right direction. When you land drop mines and you are again facing the right direction to get behind them. Then turn. If you turn slow up your turn speed.

Don't bring malubeth into this, that is not a dk skill and is available to anyone.

Rotate around them LOL . If mDK is a vampire (which most atm is) he can just use mist and eat all mag sorc mines for a breakfast and take almost no dmg and no root from it. And mag sorc cannot allow himself to spam mines over and over it's expensive skill with 3 seconds time to arm. Just to let You know I dont keep any class side I just want to see game ballanced.

Is mist a dk skill?

Is annulment and healing ward a Sorc skill ? No
Is Vigor a DK/NB/Temp/Sorc skill ? No
How about Dawnbreaker and Meteor ? No

And still these ability basically make classes what they are.
This is exaclty the kind of blindness I can't stand from forum warriors.
You can't just look at your own class, you also have to look at the synergies between non-class lines and class lines.

Aedaryl

Vampire skill

Armitas

Sorry OP. This is now a nerf dk thread.

Dracane

Armitas wrote: »

Sorry OP. This is now a nerf dk thread.

Leave them as they are would be a compromise.

Armitas

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Sorry OP. This is now a nerf dk thread.

Leave them as they are would be a compromise.

The DK is not in any position that it needs to compromise. If you think mDK is extremely overpowered, as you have stated, then start a nerf mDK thread on the pvp forums.

NBrookus

Dracane wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

A mag sorc that is unhappy fighting a mag DK can simply streak away from the fight and go fight someone else. The mag DK does not have the option of disengaging. Instead, mag DK can reflect those attacks at least for a while -- keeping wings up 100% is punishing on the magicka pools.

So the DK is stuck in the fight, whether they like it or not. What is a DK supposed to do? Sit there and eat frags and overload spam? While being unable to match the mobility or a sorc that can streak to reposition to get out of melee range or can camp mines? DKs have to have a counter to hard hitting ranged attacks.

Nerfing wings or increasing the scaling cost of an already very expensive skill is just QQ from mag sorcs. When I'm on my sorc and run into a mag DK that is good with wings and has the sustain to keep them up, I just walk away.

When the sorc spams overload on you, you know that all it takes is to push one button and the Sorc will kill himself.
Oh poor DK, you have suuuuuch hard times.

LOL, my sorc is pretty squishy, but a single reflected overload attack isn't going to kill me. Especially if I block it coming back at me. It is, however, a whole lot of fun reflecting overload spam back at noob pvp sorcs that don't know what those giant wings are. It's the best burst my mag DK ever has. Rage whispers afterwards accusing me of cheating and using overload on a DK are just the icing on the cake.

And if you walk away as a Sorc, then you already gave up and giving up means victory for the opponent. So you admit that DK is unkillable for you. I can't blame you of course

There's plenty of other AP in the sea. Walking away isn't losing, it's choosing not to get involved in a prolonged fight against the class that hard counters me. I've been on both sides of mag DK versus mag sorc duels, and it's either a sustain battle or waiting until someone makes a mistake. That's fun in a deliberate duel, but in open world the mag DK probably has buddies nearby and only has to sustain long enough for her friends to show up. Truly solo mag DK is a rare breed.

CMurder435

lmao.. with things like Malubeth, DBoS, Incapacitating strike, radiant, etc..you posting on here trying to get mDKs nerfed?!..geezzz

Luigi_Vampa

NBrookus wrote: »

A mag sorc that is unhappy fighting a mag DK can simply streak away from the fight and go fight someone else. The mag DK does not have the option of disengaging. Instead, mag DK can reflect those attacks at least for a while -- keeping wings up 100% is punishing on the magicka pools.

So the DK is stuck in the fight, whether they like it or not. What is a DK supposed to do? Sit there and eat frags and overload spam? While being unable to match the mobility or a sorc that can streak to reposition to get out of melee range or can camp mines? DKs have to have a counter to hard hitting ranged attacks.

Nerfing wings or increasing the scaling cost of an already very expensive skill is just QQ from mag sorcs. When I'm on my sorc and run into a mag DK that is good with wings and has the sustain to keep them up, I just walk away.

This happened to me the other day. I'm in IC and I'm fighting an AD Sorc at a flag. He can't burst me down and I'm not able to finish him. We fight for a good 5-10 minutes. I want this to end as I'm really bored at this point. I know I can't get away as I have no mobility and the Sorc can easily catch me. I sheathe my weapons, I jump up and down hoping to call it a draw. He keeps attacking me so I figure I have to continue fighting. A few seconds later an AD Malubeth Temp shows up and the duo kill me. The Sorc teabags me. Such fun Sorc vs DK battles.

This has always been the way with DKs. We can't run. We have to stand and fight and die. We can't lose mitigation skills like wings because we are always stuck in the middle of the fight. We don't have the mobility to catch ranged classes so we need a way to defend against them.

Azurya

no they are not the worst class... it is just the gamers who nuke a class,
cauze they can´t handle it

juhasman

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up. The range of flame lash is 8 meters for example, you don't even have to enter the mines to do all your attacks. So please, don't get me started on mines. They do nothing

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

Don't stand in the middle of the mines, stand behind the mine circle and rotate around them as they pop. If the get though both sides streak through across a remaining mine plane.

And then ? You can easily go around and root me. Then when I streak, I will look in the wrong direction and since you have wings up, I cannot attack you. I need to start a lightning heavy tick in order to turn in your direction until I can start channeling. And until then, you will already start scourging again.

I have lots of 1v1 experience and I know how this dance goes. it's a nightmare dance since the game exists and it never changes. The dance between DKs and Sorcs and will always remain a nuisance.

What did I say? Rotate around it. If the dk goes right you go left. This is sorc basics. Watch some sorc vids because there is a lot that is not immediately obvious on how to use sorc skills.

If you are using your mines like you are supposed to, behind them and facing your target, you will all ready be facing the right direction. When you land drop mines and you are again facing the right direction to get behind them. Then turn. If you turn slow up your turn speed.

Don't bring malubeth into this, that is not a dk skill and is available to anyone.

Rotate around them LOL . If mDK is a vampire (which most atm is) he can just use mist and eat all mag sorc mines for a breakfast and take almost no dmg and no root from it. And mag sorc cannot allow himself to spam mines over and over it's expensive skill with 3 seconds time to arm. Just to let You know I dont keep any class side I just want to see game ballanced.

Is mist a dk skill?

Is annulment and healing ward a Sorc skill ? No
Is Vigor a DK/NB/Temp/Sorc skill ? No
How about Dawnbreaker and Meteor ? No

And still these ability basically make classes what they are.
This is exaclty the kind of blindness I can't stand from forum warriors.
You can't just look at your own class, you also have to look at the synergies between non-class lines and class lines.

I coulnt say that better.

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Sorry OP. This is now a nerf dk thread.

Leave them as they are would be a compromise.

Well not excatly. Mag DK have few things that need to be improved but that doesnt mean all things atm are acceptable as ballanced.

Bulljoker

that's why we love to play them, because you have to be good

Dracane

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Sorry OP. This is now a nerf dk thread.

Leave them as they are would be a compromise.

The DK is not in any position that it needs to compromise. If you think mDK is extremely overpowered, as you have stated, then start a nerf mDK thread on the pvp forums.

I'm not that evil.
It's not nice to create such threads. But hijacking threads like this is a good chance.

forzajuve212

It's common knowledge and pretty much accepted fact that magicka dk is the worst overall class in ESO pvp. Any experienced PVPer will agree with that statement. Don't believe me? Check this poll on the alliance war forums. It's not even close.

Rawblin

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

In this thread both Magicka Sorc's and Magicka DK's are here sniping at each other while Stamina classes are eating popcorn laughing their behinds off.

Magicka DK's are basically in the same spot as Magicka Sorcs though in this thread there seems to be a race towards the bottom. "I'm worse off!", "No you have a counter to one of my attacks so I'm at the bottom"....kids kids

Both classes suffer from lack of PVP Tactical Pressure when against Stamina classes in PVP who don't have to get stressed at all over quick repositioning via sprint, dodgeroll, ccbreak, & insta heals Hots with Rally, Vigor. All from one resource pool that synergizes nicely. Too nice one could say.

Again Both Magicka Sorcs's and DK's share the same problems and its not each other. Both seem to be forced into Destro staves for range damage as class abilities are quite lacking in that dept. Both have PVE great class abilities. PVP not so much.

If someone can tell me how to survive burst of an incoming Stamina class: At 28 meters shuffle,dodgeroll,rally-->Gapclose, start swinging Wrecking blow, Dawnbreaker or, Incapacitating Strike.

Both Magicka DK's and Sorcs are in trouble in close range with Stamina classes whose Stamina based skillsets provide Massive Burst by design using the faulty assumption that Ranged abilities should hit less as there's some travel times in between for melee Stamina toons.

Range means nothing if you either don't have any ranged class damage abilities (DK), or in the case of a Sorc, they do only Dot damage that's easily fully negated by HOT stamina mechanics. Except of course decent damage procs.

Missing spell: "Deadeye"
At ranged distance Magicka classes need (imo) an (anti-christ) spell of Accuracy/To-Hit with the same duration as Shuffle with a 25% better chance to hit the target > 8 meters.

Now It's a Stamina world. 2 wrongs apparently make a right.

Magicka - Pride before the fall.
1: Light Amor wearing DK Tanks were unkillable gods of permablocking, chain Talons CCing death dealling in PVP and PVE for a long time.
2: Against all that was foretold by those on PTS, Alchemist, ProxyDet, Vicious Death was allowed to all be "live" for months...Zerg killing it was told, except the Zergs used it and just shutdown competitive PVP. smh
3. Sheild stacking Sorcs and dual stacking of shields by other classes could magically negate alot of damage frustrating Stamina classes in melee range.

Stamina - "It's our time to shine."
1. Magicka shields not worth stacking plus 6 seconds of duration.
2. Perma dodge is back via Shuffle/dodgeroll - CP points, armor traits, and sets make it too easy with NO accuracy Counter, what's not to love.
3. Burst at range and melee. Snipe+Wrecking Blow+ Ult = kiss your but goodbye Magicka classes .

TL:DR - Months from now this will still be a topic. - Reroll Stamina while /singing "let it go, let it go"... Face it Magicka is a lost cause now in the foreseeable future. OP shields were a crutch preventing mSorcs and mDK's from feeling the imbalance of not having enough defense provided by a decent stamina pool for ccbreak/ dodgeroll, sprint in PVP. Now that shields are gone, the Onion layer is peeled back, the true issue surfaces. Cannot hit half of anything and you are mostly a sitting duck. DK's are largely immoble, and Sorcs streak is useful mostly to run away...

OT:
Tactically any Vamp can negate mine damage easily by Misting over them if they choose with negligible damage. Doing this in combat takes practice of course but can be done easily. It's niche but just another tactic worth mentioning being that someone brought it up.

Well spooken. Thank you for this.
We're forgetting the true enemy.

But the hatred between Sorcs and DKs is so much older than the hate between magicka and stamina
They're ancient enemies.

Perhaps they are enemies, but they should not be. There are a lot of ways they could change this. I personally think they ought to put a 'gold bar' based upon health called 'Endurance' as a nod to previous TES games. This derived bar would be used for dodge/block/ccbreaker/sprint/crouch/etc. There is good precedent for this, even the Fallout games use Endurance in sprinting (please don't forget so did the TES games). This would allow them to normalize costs for Stamina abilities and Magicka abilities, as well as normalize Weapon/Spell Damage with each other and gear sets. The other thing I like about this suggestion is that it would promote the importance of health, and make the push into Health/Tanking more meaningful without being overwhelming. It would also mean that DPS builds, whether magicka or stamina would have roughly the same pool for these actions. Magic would be able to cast more affordable shields, and stamina would be able to utilize more affordable dodge rolls, cc breaks, etc. They would be more balanced though with respect to one another though in this instance, particularly if Magicka remains the realm of damage shields.

Or, you could simply create new skills akin to dodge rolling/sneaking/breaking CC that rely on Magicka. That way stam builds cant whine about using the same resource for both defense and offense, magicka builds cant whine about it, everyone can just go balls deep buffing up their respective magicka/stamina bar and we will see who wins out finally.

And by magicka based abilities I mean.... a blink type spell (shorter than streak) that gives you a "magical ward" that has a chance to deflect(not reflect!) incoming attacks briefly (dodge, with magicka). A magical camouflage spell that drains magicka as you sneak around (not invisible, exactly like crouch right now but drains magicka instead of stam). And a CC break that involves magicka classes flexing their "mind muscles" to break free of physical or magical CC. Uses Magicka. Block with magicka? Again, mindpower puts a sparkly magic shield animation in front of you, drains magicka and prevents magicka regen while in use. Magic blocking. Boom. Sprint? Magical boot enchantment that drains magicka and lets you move a little faster. Easy.

Did I just fix the game? Oh my.

Toc de Malsvi

Dracane wrote: »

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. . .

Dracane wrote: »

Please don't accuse me of L2P.

Sometimes it is hard to apply the same criticisms to ourselves that we will apply to others. . .

Xvorg

R4B0N3 wrote: »

Magicka Dragonknights are terrible in PVP, they have no advantages whatsoever and no matter how much time and effort I put into this character it always turns out the same, me on my back wishing I was any class other then a Dragonknight. I'm sure people out there will say "yeah but you have Dragon Fire Scale and Take Flight" I say to those people so what, Take Flight hardly does any damage these days and it is an ultimate, Dragon Fire Scale is good against Sorcerers sometimes but we have nothing that can help us in a fight, nothing that makes us stand out as a class, we have pathetic shields and laughable healing moves, only one solid DPS move which is Flame Lash but that doesn't do anywhere near the damage a Crystal Fragments would do. We have an arsenal of moves that are not much good for anything PVP related!

Nightblades can go invisible at any given time, it has to be the most unfair class in the game! they stalk you and wait for the perfect moment to Ambush you then they Mass Hysteria you and if you somehow get back on you're feet to fight back they are gone! creating the space they need to ambush you again and all you can do is sit there and wait! talk about unfair, how are you supposed to fight someone who can disappear and then reappear whenever they feel like it?

Sorcerers have got shields for days and sure they have been nurfed a bit but they are still stronger then ever! almost impossible to do any damage with the shields they have, I hit one guy with everything I had and I didn't do a single bit of damage to him because he had his shields on, They have got Crystal Fragments that I've seen do 20k+ damage to people and can streak right through you and make hard to do anything but take more Crystal Fragments because you cant move.

Templars now are the new hot topic it seems with infinite heals and good DPS using Puncturing Sweeps over and over and Radiant Destruction that does insane damage and if you are lucky enough to get their health almost down they simply flick their wrists and get all their health right back, so all the effort you just spent getting the upper hand goes straight out of the window with a flick of the wrists.

Wanna get a lot of AP in PvP playing a magicka DK? Then do this:

1- Get 5 pcs of spell power cure set
2- get healing mage jewelry
3- get a VMSA staff
4- get Nightflame

heal evreything while casting igneous shield each 6 secs. Don't forget to throw an obsidian shard whenever you see anyone coming

Xvorg

Rawblin wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

In this thread both Magicka Sorc's and Magicka DK's are here sniping at each other while Stamina classes are eating popcorn laughing their behinds off.

Magicka DK's are basically in the same spot as Magicka Sorcs though in this thread there seems to be a race towards the bottom. "I'm worse off!", "No you have a counter to one of my attacks so I'm at the bottom"....kids kids

Both classes suffer from lack of PVP Tactical Pressure when against Stamina classes in PVP who don't have to get stressed at all over quick repositioning via sprint, dodgeroll, ccbreak, & insta heals Hots with Rally, Vigor. All from one resource pool that synergizes nicely. Too nice one could say.

Again Both Magicka Sorcs's and DK's share the same problems and its not each other. Both seem to be forced into Destro staves for range damage as class abilities are quite lacking in that dept. Both have PVE great class abilities. PVP not so much.

If someone can tell me how to survive burst of an incoming Stamina class: At 28 meters shuffle,dodgeroll,rally-->Gapclose, start swinging Wrecking blow, Dawnbreaker or, Incapacitating Strike.

Both Magicka DK's and Sorcs are in trouble in close range with Stamina classes whose Stamina based skillsets provide Massive Burst by design using the faulty assumption that Ranged abilities should hit less as there's some travel times in between for melee Stamina toons.

Range means nothing if you either don't have any ranged class damage abilities (DK), or in the case of a Sorc, they do only Dot damage that's easily fully negated by HOT stamina mechanics. Except of course decent damage procs.

Missing spell: "Deadeye"
At ranged distance Magicka classes need (imo) an (anti-christ) spell of Accuracy/To-Hit with the same duration as Shuffle with a 25% better chance to hit the target > 8 meters.

Now It's a Stamina world. 2 wrongs apparently make a right.

Magicka - Pride before the fall.
1: Light Amor wearing DK Tanks were unkillable gods of permablocking, chain Talons CCing death dealling in PVP and PVE for a long time.
2: Against all that was foretold by those on PTS, Alchemist, ProxyDet, Vicious Death was allowed to all be "live" for months...Zerg killing it was told, except the Zergs used it and just shutdown competitive PVP. smh
3. Sheild stacking Sorcs and dual stacking of shields by other classes could magically negate alot of damage frustrating Stamina classes in melee range.

Stamina - "It's our time to shine."
1. Magicka shields not worth stacking plus 6 seconds of duration.
2. Perma dodge is back via Shuffle/dodgeroll - CP points, armor traits, and sets make it too easy with NO accuracy Counter, what's not to love.
3. Burst at range and melee. Snipe+Wrecking Blow+ Ult = kiss your but goodbye Magicka classes .

TL:DR - Months from now this will still be a topic. - Reroll Stamina while /singing "let it go, let it go"... Face it Magicka is a lost cause now in the foreseeable future. OP shields were a crutch preventing mSorcs and mDK's from feeling the imbalance of not having enough defense provided by a decent stamina pool for ccbreak/ dodgeroll, sprint in PVP. Now that shields are gone, the Onion layer is peeled back, the true issue surfaces. Cannot hit half of anything and you are mostly a sitting duck. DK's are largely immoble, and Sorcs streak is useful mostly to run away...

OT:
Tactically any Vamp can negate mine damage easily by Misting over them if they choose with negligible damage. Doing this in combat takes practice of course but can be done easily. It's niche but just another tactic worth mentioning being that someone brought it up.

Well spooken. Thank you for this.
We're forgetting the true enemy.

But the hatred between Sorcs and DKs is so much older than the hate between magicka and stamina
They're ancient enemies.

Perhaps they are enemies, but they should not be. There are a lot of ways they could change this. I personally think they ought to put a 'gold bar' based upon health called 'Endurance' as a nod to previous TES games. This derived bar would be used for dodge/block/ccbreaker/sprint/crouch/etc. There is good precedent for this, even the Fallout games use Endurance in sprinting (please don't forget so did the TES games). This would allow them to normalize costs for Stamina abilities and Magicka abilities, as well as normalize Weapon/Spell Damage with each other and gear sets. The other thing I like about this suggestion is that it would promote the importance of health, and make the push into Health/Tanking more meaningful without being overwhelming. It would also mean that DPS builds, whether magicka or stamina would have roughly the same pool for these actions. Magic would be able to cast more affordable shields, and stamina would be able to utilize more affordable dodge rolls, cc breaks, etc. They would be more balanced though with respect to one another though in this instance, particularly if Magicka remains the realm of damage shields.

Or, you could simply create new skills akin to dodge rolling/sneaking/breaking CC that rely on Magicka. That way stam builds cant whine about using the same resource for both defense and offense, magicka builds cant whine about it, everyone can just go balls deep buffing up their respective magicka/stamina bar and we will see who wins out finally.

And by magicka based abilities I mean.... (1)a blink type spell (shorter than streak) that gives you a "magical ward" that has a chance to deflect(not reflect!) incoming attacks briefly (dodge, with magicka). (2)A magical camouflage spell that drains magicka as you sneak around (not invisible, exactly like crouch right now but drains magicka instead of stam). (3)And a CC break that involves magicka classes flexing their "mind muscles" to break free of physical or magical CC. Uses Magicka. (4)Block with magicka? Again, mindpower puts a sparkly magic shield animation in front of you, drains magicka and prevents magicka regen while in use. Magic blocking. Boom. (5)Sprint? Magical boot enchantment that drains magicka and lets you move a little faster. Easy.

Did I just fix the game? Oh my.

1- It is called Blur
2- It is called Cloak
3- It is called Agony
4- It is called Consuming darkness (though it's an ultimate, which is harder to get than a toggle)
5- It is called Concealed weapon. Just by sloting it and moving with invisibility/sneaking you go faster. Combine it with rapid maneuvres to get the major expedition buff.

The class you describe is called "Magicka Nightblade"

DUTCH_REAPER

holy biscuits n gravy. I know I'm not seeing another so called self announced subject matter expert on Magic DKs trying to say they need to be nerfd again am I????!?!?!?

Dude

blabafat

Dk doesn't need more damage. It needs more survivability

Rawblin

Xvorg wrote: »

Rawblin wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

In this thread both Magicka Sorc's and Magicka DK's are here sniping at each other while Stamina classes are eating popcorn laughing their behinds off.

Magicka DK's are basically in the same spot as Magicka Sorcs though in this thread there seems to be a race towards the bottom. "I'm worse off!", "No you have a counter to one of my attacks so I'm at the bottom"....kids kids

Both classes suffer from lack of PVP Tactical Pressure when against Stamina classes in PVP who don't have to get stressed at all over quick repositioning via sprint, dodgeroll, ccbreak, & insta heals Hots with Rally, Vigor. All from one resource pool that synergizes nicely. Too nice one could say.

Again Both Magicka Sorcs's and DK's share the same problems and its not each other. Both seem to be forced into Destro staves for range damage as class abilities are quite lacking in that dept. Both have PVE great class abilities. PVP not so much.

If someone can tell me how to survive burst of an incoming Stamina class: At 28 meters shuffle,dodgeroll,rally-->Gapclose, start swinging Wrecking blow, Dawnbreaker or, Incapacitating Strike.

Both Magicka DK's and Sorcs are in trouble in close range with Stamina classes whose Stamina based skillsets provide Massive Burst by design using the faulty assumption that Ranged abilities should hit less as there's some travel times in between for melee Stamina toons.

Range means nothing if you either don't have any ranged class damage abilities (DK), or in the case of a Sorc, they do only Dot damage that's easily fully negated by HOT stamina mechanics. Except of course decent damage procs.

Missing spell: "Deadeye"
At ranged distance Magicka classes need (imo) an (anti-christ) spell of Accuracy/To-Hit with the same duration as Shuffle with a 25% better chance to hit the target > 8 meters.

Now It's a Stamina world. 2 wrongs apparently make a right.

Magicka - Pride before the fall.
1: Light Amor wearing DK Tanks were unkillable gods of permablocking, chain Talons CCing death dealling in PVP and PVE for a long time.
2: Against all that was foretold by those on PTS, Alchemist, ProxyDet, Vicious Death was allowed to all be "live" for months...Zerg killing it was told, except the Zergs used it and just shutdown competitive PVP. smh
3. Sheild stacking Sorcs and dual stacking of shields by other classes could magically negate alot of damage frustrating Stamina classes in melee range.

Stamina - "It's our time to shine."
1. Magicka shields not worth stacking plus 6 seconds of duration.
2. Perma dodge is back via Shuffle/dodgeroll - CP points, armor traits, and sets make it too easy with NO accuracy Counter, what's not to love.
3. Burst at range and melee. Snipe+Wrecking Blow+ Ult = kiss your but goodbye Magicka classes .

TL:DR - Months from now this will still be a topic. - Reroll Stamina while /singing "let it go, let it go"... Face it Magicka is a lost cause now in the foreseeable future. OP shields were a crutch preventing mSorcs and mDK's from feeling the imbalance of not having enough defense provided by a decent stamina pool for ccbreak/ dodgeroll, sprint in PVP. Now that shields are gone, the Onion layer is peeled back, the true issue surfaces. Cannot hit half of anything and you are mostly a sitting duck. DK's are largely immoble, and Sorcs streak is useful mostly to run away...

OT:
Tactically any Vamp can negate mine damage easily by Misting over them if they choose with negligible damage. Doing this in combat takes practice of course but can be done easily. It's niche but just another tactic worth mentioning being that someone brought it up.

Well spooken. Thank you for this.
We're forgetting the true enemy.

But the hatred between Sorcs and DKs is so much older than the hate between magicka and stamina
They're ancient enemies.

Perhaps they are enemies, but they should not be. There are a lot of ways they could change this. I personally think they ought to put a 'gold bar' based upon health called 'Endurance' as a nod to previous TES games. This derived bar would be used for dodge/block/ccbreaker/sprint/crouch/etc. There is good precedent for this, even the Fallout games use Endurance in sprinting (please don't forget so did the TES games). This would allow them to normalize costs for Stamina abilities and Magicka abilities, as well as normalize Weapon/Spell Damage with each other and gear sets. The other thing I like about this suggestion is that it would promote the importance of health, and make the push into Health/Tanking more meaningful without being overwhelming. It would also mean that DPS builds, whether magicka or stamina would have roughly the same pool for these actions. Magic would be able to cast more affordable shields, and stamina would be able to utilize more affordable dodge rolls, cc breaks, etc. They would be more balanced though with respect to one another though in this instance, particularly if Magicka remains the realm of damage shields.

Or, you could simply create new skills akin to dodge rolling/sneaking/breaking CC that rely on Magicka. That way stam builds cant whine about using the same resource for both defense and offense, magicka builds cant whine about it, everyone can just go balls deep buffing up their respective magicka/stamina bar and we will see who wins out finally.

And by magicka based abilities I mean.... (1)a blink type spell (shorter than streak) that gives you a "magical ward" that has a chance to deflect(not reflect!) incoming attacks briefly (dodge, with magicka). (2)A magical camouflage spell that drains magicka as you sneak around (not invisible, exactly like crouch right now but drains magicka instead of stam). (3)And a CC break that involves magicka classes flexing their "mind muscles" to break free of physical or magical CC. Uses Magicka. (4)Block with magicka? Again, mindpower puts a sparkly magic shield animation in front of you, drains magicka and prevents magicka regen while in use. Magic blocking. Boom. (5)Sprint? Magical boot enchantment that drains magicka and lets you move a little faster. Easy.

Did I just fix the game? Oh my.

1- It is called Blur
2- It is called Cloak
3- It is called Agony
4- It is called Consuming darkness (though it's an ultimate, which is harder to get than a toggle)
5- It is called Concealed weapon. Just by sloting it and moving with invisibility/sneaking you go faster. Combine it with rapid maneuvres to get the major expedition buff.

The class you describe is called "Magicka Nightblade"

Not really I was describing exact parallels for current stamina-cost mechanics that everyone is forced to use. While those Nightblade abilities are sort of similar, they are not the same. I just want magicka-cost versions of the stamina cc-break/etc/etc stuff. The lore is explainable because it... well... it's magic! No one would expect a mage to bench press a horse, he'd use his mind. That kind of thing

Cronopoly

Again I say neither class spec mDK or mSorc are worth your time now. They both suck and are subpar at competitive PVP for the most part.

For the top 5% of PVP'ers that have brilliant *cough mechanics, & skills, oh and programmable keyboards...etc...it doesn't matter what class they play they maximize what they have to make it work and look good.

For the middle 80% of players, you'll end up dieing more than your stamina counterparts. And your teams would be better off with a Stamina toon in your place. competing.

For the ungifted lower 15% or so that just suck, it doesn't matter what class they play, for one reason or another they won't adjust, listen, or learn tactics and will always be free AP.

Armitas

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

This is a L2P issue for YOU then. If a few mines completely disable you, then this is your imagination that blocks you out.
You can still attack me if you want when I stand in mines. But I can't do anything against you when you have wings up. The range of flame lash is 8 meters for example, you don't even have to enter the mines to do all your attacks. So please, don't get me started on mines. They do nothing

I will wait for you to let them wings down, which requires you to make a mistake. And then my only chance is to burst you down from 100% to 0 within the split of a second until you break free and this is fairly hard.
But there are many players who eat mines like candy, because mines are completely overrestimated.

Don't stand in the middle of the mines, stand behind the mine circle and rotate around them as they pop. If the get though both sides streak through across a remaining mine plane.

And then ? You can easily go around and root me. Then when I streak, I will look in the wrong direction and since you have wings up, I cannot attack you. I need to start a lightning heavy tick in order to turn in your direction until I can start channeling. And until then, you will already start scourging again.

I have lots of 1v1 experience and I know how this dance goes. it's a nightmare dance since the game exists and it never changes. The dance between DKs and Sorcs and will always remain a nuisance.

What did I say? Rotate around it. If the dk goes right you go left. This is sorc basics. Watch some sorc vids because there is a lot that is not immediately obvious on how to use sorc skills.

If you are using your mines like you are supposed to, behind them and facing your target, you will all ready be facing the right direction. When you land drop mines and you are again facing the right direction to get behind them. Then turn. If you turn slow up your turn speed.

Don't bring malubeth into this, that is not a dk skill and is available to anyone.

Rotate around them LOL . If mDK is a vampire (which most atm is) he can just use mist and eat all mag sorc mines for a breakfast and take almost no dmg and no root from it. And mag sorc cannot allow himself to spam mines over and over it's expensive skill with 3 seconds time to arm. Just to let You know I dont keep any class side I just want to see game ballanced.

Is mist a dk skill?

Is annulment and healing ward a Sorc skill ? No
Is Vigor a DK/NB/Temp/Sorc skill ? No
How about Dawnbreaker and Meteor ? No

And still these ability basically make classes what they are.
This is exaclty the kind of blindness I can't stand from forum warriors.
You can't just look at your own class, you also have to look at the synergies between non-class lines and class lines.

Other than vigor, which is a product of how stamina works in this game, these abilities don't make classes who they are. I have no idea what you are talking about. Forum warrioring would be conflating two different things like vamp and dk as if they are the same thing.

DUTCH_REAPER

Armitas you can't fix stupid. Don't even worry about trying to explain anything to that forum troll. The true mDK players know exactly what's up.

Xvorg

Rawblin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Rawblin wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

In this thread both Magicka Sorc's and Magicka DK's are here sniping at each other while Stamina classes are eating popcorn laughing their behinds off.

Magicka DK's are basically in the same spot as Magicka Sorcs though in this thread there seems to be a race towards the bottom. "I'm worse off!", "No you have a counter to one of my attacks so I'm at the bottom"....kids kids

Both classes suffer from lack of PVP Tactical Pressure when against Stamina classes in PVP who don't have to get stressed at all over quick repositioning via sprint, dodgeroll, ccbreak, & insta heals Hots with Rally, Vigor. All from one resource pool that synergizes nicely. Too nice one could say.

Again Both Magicka Sorcs's and DK's share the same problems and its not each other. Both seem to be forced into Destro staves for range damage as class abilities are quite lacking in that dept. Both have PVE great class abilities. PVP not so much.

If someone can tell me how to survive burst of an incoming Stamina class: At 28 meters shuffle,dodgeroll,rally-->Gapclose, start swinging Wrecking blow, Dawnbreaker or, Incapacitating Strike.

Both Magicka DK's and Sorcs are in trouble in close range with Stamina classes whose Stamina based skillsets provide Massive Burst by design using the faulty assumption that Ranged abilities should hit less as there's some travel times in between for melee Stamina toons.

Range means nothing if you either don't have any ranged class damage abilities (DK), or in the case of a Sorc, they do only Dot damage that's easily fully negated by HOT stamina mechanics. Except of course decent damage procs.

Missing spell: "Deadeye"
At ranged distance Magicka classes need (imo) an (anti-christ) spell of Accuracy/To-Hit with the same duration as Shuffle with a 25% better chance to hit the target > 8 meters.

Now It's a Stamina world. 2 wrongs apparently make a right.

Magicka - Pride before the fall.
1: Light Amor wearing DK Tanks were unkillable gods of permablocking, chain Talons CCing death dealling in PVP and PVE for a long time.
2: Against all that was foretold by those on PTS, Alchemist, ProxyDet, Vicious Death was allowed to all be "live" for months...Zerg killing it was told, except the Zergs used it and just shutdown competitive PVP. smh
3. Sheild stacking Sorcs and dual stacking of shields by other classes could magically negate alot of damage frustrating Stamina classes in melee range.

Stamina - "It's our time to shine."
1. Magicka shields not worth stacking plus 6 seconds of duration.
2. Perma dodge is back via Shuffle/dodgeroll - CP points, armor traits, and sets make it too easy with NO accuracy Counter, what's not to love.
3. Burst at range and melee. Snipe+Wrecking Blow+ Ult = kiss your but goodbye Magicka classes .

TL:DR - Months from now this will still be a topic. - Reroll Stamina while /singing "let it go, let it go"... Face it Magicka is a lost cause now in the foreseeable future. OP shields were a crutch preventing mSorcs and mDK's from feeling the imbalance of not having enough defense provided by a decent stamina pool for ccbreak/ dodgeroll, sprint in PVP. Now that shields are gone, the Onion layer is peeled back, the true issue surfaces. Cannot hit half of anything and you are mostly a sitting duck. DK's are largely immoble, and Sorcs streak is useful mostly to run away...

OT:
Tactically any Vamp can negate mine damage easily by Misting over them if they choose with negligible damage. Doing this in combat takes practice of course but can be done easily. It's niche but just another tactic worth mentioning being that someone brought it up.

Well spooken. Thank you for this.
We're forgetting the true enemy.

But the hatred between Sorcs and DKs is so much older than the hate between magicka and stamina
They're ancient enemies.

Perhaps they are enemies, but they should not be. There are a lot of ways they could change this. I personally think they ought to put a 'gold bar' based upon health called 'Endurance' as a nod to previous TES games. This derived bar would be used for dodge/block/ccbreaker/sprint/crouch/etc. There is good precedent for this, even the Fallout games use Endurance in sprinting (please don't forget so did the TES games). This would allow them to normalize costs for Stamina abilities and Magicka abilities, as well as normalize Weapon/Spell Damage with each other and gear sets. The other thing I like about this suggestion is that it would promote the importance of health, and make the push into Health/Tanking more meaningful without being overwhelming. It would also mean that DPS builds, whether magicka or stamina would have roughly the same pool for these actions. Magic would be able to cast more affordable shields, and stamina would be able to utilize more affordable dodge rolls, cc breaks, etc. They would be more balanced though with respect to one another though in this instance, particularly if Magicka remains the realm of damage shields.

Or, you could simply create new skills akin to dodge rolling/sneaking/breaking CC that rely on Magicka. That way stam builds cant whine about using the same resource for both defense and offense, magicka builds cant whine about it, everyone can just go balls deep buffing up their respective magicka/stamina bar and we will see who wins out finally.

And by magicka based abilities I mean.... (1)a blink type spell (shorter than streak) that gives you a "magical ward" that has a chance to deflect(not reflect!) incoming attacks briefly (dodge, with magicka). (2)A magical camouflage spell that drains magicka as you sneak around (not invisible, exactly like crouch right now but drains magicka instead of stam). (3)And a CC break that involves magicka classes flexing their "mind muscles" to break free of physical or magical CC. Uses Magicka. (4)Block with magicka? Again, mindpower puts a sparkly magic shield animation in front of you, drains magicka and prevents magicka regen while in use. Magic blocking. Boom. (5)Sprint? Magical boot enchantment that drains magicka and lets you move a little faster. Easy.

Did I just fix the game? Oh my.

1- It is called Blur
2- It is called Cloak
3- It is called Agony
4- It is called Consuming darkness (though it's an ultimate, which is harder to get than a toggle)
5- It is called Concealed weapon. Just by sloting it and moving with invisibility/sneaking you go faster. Combine it with rapid maneuvres to get the major expedition buff.

The class you describe is called "Magicka Nightblade"

Not really I was describing exact parallels for current stamina-cost mechanics that everyone is forced to use. While those Nightblade abilities are sort of similar, they are not the same. I just want magicka-cost versions of the stamina cc-break/etc/etc stuff. The lore is explainable because it... well... it's magic! No one would expect a mage to bench press a horse, he'd use his mind. That kind of thing

they don't need to be the same. Replicating how stamina works in a magicka set up is pointless and raises the quiestion: why 2 resources doing the same if just one is enough?

Though I agree with some people around the forums, experiments like vigor, which is a strong HoT based on magicka shouldn't exist.

syko809

R4B0N3 wrote: »

Magicka Dragonknights are terrible in PVP, they have no advantages whatsoever and no matter how much time and effort I put into this character it always turns out the same, me on my back wishing I was any class other then a Dragonknight. I'm sure people out there will say "yeah but you have Dragon Fire Scale and Take Flight" I say to those people so what, Take Flight hardly does any damage these days and it is an ultimate, Dragon Fire Scale is good against Sorcerers sometimes but we have nothing that can help us in a fight, nothing that makes us stand out as a class, we have pathetic shields and laughable healing moves, only one solid DPS move which is Flame Lash but that doesn't do anywhere near the damage a Crystal Fragments would do. We have an arsenal of moves that are not much good for anything PVP related!

Nightblades can go invisible at any given time, it has to be the most unfair class in the game! they stalk you and wait for the perfect moment to Ambush you then they Mass Hysteria you and if you somehow get back on you're feet to fight back they are gone! creating the space they need to ambush you again and all you can do is sit there and wait! talk about unfair, how are you supposed to fight someone who can disappear and then reappear whenever they feel like it?

Sorcerers have got shields for days and sure they have been nurfed a bit but they are still stronger then ever! almost impossible to do any damage with the shields they have, I hit one guy with everything I had and I didn't do a single bit of damage to him because he had his shields on, They have got Crystal Fragments that I've seen do 20k+ damage to people and can streak right through you and make hard to do anything but take more Crystal Fragments because you cant move.

Templars now are the new hot topic it seems with infinite heals and good DPS using Puncturing Sweeps over and over and Radiant Destruction that does insane damage and if you are lucky enough to get their health almost down they simply flick their wrists and get all their health right back, so all the effort you just spent getting the upper hand goes straight out of the window with a flick of the wrists.

Quick question. Is it just me or most of us DKs DOT get cancel by vigor and rally hard time, well not cancel but you know what i mean. I just think we need more damage on one hit and less DOT. I get kill alot on my DK because i dont have a finisher or because they have vigor and rally going on most of the time.

Anhedonie

Dracane wrote: »

If you get hit by crystal shard, then you are a bad Dragonknight. A Sorcerer can't kill a dragonknight if you don't mess up very very hard.

Dks have the second best health restoration in pvp after templar and the deadliest dps. Sure, your only burst combo is petrify and meteor. But that's enough to kill when you do it right.
To me, Dragonknight is still the most dangerous and annoying opponent after Magicka templars.

I would cry tears of happiness if my force shock would hit for the damage of your lava whip.
What DK could use in terms of pvp, is a bursty ability that they can combine with meteor. Maybe it's just because I am a Sorcerer and get completely countered by DKs. But from my point of view, DK is too strong and needs no buffs at all.
I will start solo pvping my magicka DK soon. Maybe this will change my opinion.

But if DK gets buffed, then scales really need a nerf. Reducing it to 2 seconds, but let it reflect an infinite number of projectiles again.

If you can't kill a DK, then you're a bad sorc. You have a lot of nonreflectable abilities. Just don't use cookie cuter builds and l2p.

bardx86

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Dracane this is strictly a L2P issue for you. I can make the exact same argument that you are--sorcs are a hard counter to mDKs because all out attacks are melee range and you have mines. As long as you sit in mines (that last 30 seconds compared to 4 seconds on wings), I cannot kill you.

Here's some tips from a mDK on how to beat a mDK as a sorc. First of all, if they're only spamming wings, they will run out of magic. It's expensive to keep up all the time. Second, light attacks count, and crushing shock is three projectiles. Velocious curse goes through it, as does both flavors of magicka det if you use that. So the way you burst a mDK is sit in your mines and poke them with a light attack, crushing shock periodically. Put just enough pressure that they maintain wings. With a frag procced, watch for the wings animation. Hit them with a curse then count to three (remember, wings only lasts 4 seconds), streak through them to stun them, then proceed to burst them with frags, wrath, and DBoS.

Crushing shock does not count 3 time against flappy wings

Ashamray

I don't know why people continue whining about magDKs. Every day I see hard-to-kill monsters with good aoe or decent solo-target damage, survivability, healing and damage mitigation.