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Lets Balance Radiant Destruction
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Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
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This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made this 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. In fact, if you remember the 80+ page templar thread on TG PTS forums, it's pretty clear we don't have everything - pretty sure you were just as vocal in there as myself. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you. Seriously, how can I have a rational conversation with someone that thinks toppling charge > ambush, nova > negate, or shards > fear/fossilize?Edited by Zheg on July 25, 2016 11:51PM5 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.#MOREORBS1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
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Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped. I cannot believe how much effort we're going through right now to argue whether negate or nova is the better ult.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
As an aside, for your own benefit, you can change your settings as of the DB patch to have ground targeted abilities instantly drop on your cursor so you won't have to 'double click' shards. The drawback is that it's insanely frustrating to place siege. Even with that in effect, using shards to CC someone vs using fear/fossilize is like night and day.Edited by Zheg on July 26, 2016 12:11AM3 -
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You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability#MOREORBS1 -
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Are you trying to make a joke? Quick cast doesn't change anything it still acts like a double click. Removing the double click would make it instantAs an aside, for your own benefit, you can change your settings as of the DB patch to have ground targeted abilities instantly drop on your cursor so you won't have to 'double click' shards. The drawback is that it's insanely frustrating to place siege. Even with that in effect, using shards to CC someone vs using fear/fossilize is like night and day.Edited by Nifty2g on July 26, 2016 12:26AM#MOREORBS1 -
IITHEOPII✭✭Yes this thread is obviously going to fester the tears of all the Templars around Tamriel and create a large ball of salt to defend the skill, but let's be real -- Radiant Destruction is incredibly over powered and not currently balanced, it is enabling toxic game play and unthoughtful play styles.
I'll start off by saying yes this skill has a lot of counters, you can purge, you can interrupt it and what not, overall that is not the problem, the problem is the play style this skill provokes, to sit back while some guy is fighting lets say 2 or 3 people, to have a Templar or two sitting in the back just casting Radiant Destruction because that is the only skill they have on their bar and just holding it on him or her while the damage goes up and up as the target gets low, and that person usually always has an inevitable death. We have seen it on streams time and time again, it's a toxic playstyle, it's unthoughtful and it's just provoking such a terrible game design.
Now before the Templar tears get riled up, here are my thoughts on the skill. Yes Templars need an execute, you can't take the execute away or nerf the damage it does otherwise the class is going to be too weak, but what I want is to stop the horrible mentality the skill is giving, and how strong it is.
The skill is in need of an internal cooldown; the player can't recast the skill within .5 seconds or 1 second. Doing this will stop the whole beam spamming, and it will reduce the amount of beams a target will have on them at one time (unless of course Templars communicate in the group, and that in itself is promoting a nice healthy thoughtful game play). Including an ICD to the skill will not break it, but reduce how much spam it gives. I believe because the amount of damage it actually gives having a cooldown on it will make up for that and it will also make the Templar think more and use it a lot more appropriately and it will be put in line will all the other executes without having to reduce the damage it actually does.
And not that many care, but this change would be good for PvE as it allows you to want to weave during your casts so you can get some spell damage procs from your swords.
@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
That's all I have to say, and yes being in PvP for the past week, I can finally see how terribly balanced the skill is. 1 or 2 are fine to handle but more often than not you are faced with about 4 or 5 beams at once, there is no counter to that, it desyncs your health and as soon as you hit 40% health you are dead. There is counters I know, but you are forced to spec in a way you should not be forced to spec to deal with that crap.
That's all I have to say. Balance it, don't damage nerf it.
EDIT: Actually it wont hurt pve at all, you just put all your dots down while you are on cooldown. And it fixes beam spam in Cyrodill
Win/Winproduct of my own destruction
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You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
If you ran at all with us, or hopped in ts once in the months that we pvp'd, or read gchat where we were constantly asking for more people to come pvp, you'd have known that 24v24 wasn't really a thing nifty
You're making a whoooooole lot of assumptions there. If we're on the topic of assumptions, back when I played, I'd be pretty confident I ran in more small group/solo pvp than you did simply because of how many hours I clocked in cyrodiil - even if I spent a majority of that time in a medium-large group.
It honestly sounds like you spend almost no time whatsoever at keep fights. They are not 24v24 anymore, it's alliance v alliance. These are the very fights where people are whining about jesus beam. If you don't see negates being dropped, I honestly don't know where you're pvping. They sure as hell aren't only being dropped by a coordinated raid.
The reason I keep trying to make sense of what you're saying about shields is because you portray templar has having everything in the context of jesus beam overperforming, I point out just one area where they don't, and you argue with that. You can have a good class shield, or you can have a decent jesus beam, not both. If you want my opinion on blazing shield - no, I think trollplar is ineffective in this meta compared to other specs. It's tanky and fun, but you cannot hit my damage numbers any more, you cannot use it as a scout like I once did, and you cannot use it as an unkillable rez templar (though this is still effective, you can't do it anywhere near where you used to be able to). You can use it to kite pugs around a tree, that's pretty much it.
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.Edited by Zheg on July 26, 2016 12:36AM4 -
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Everything else isn't worth a discussion because you are just doing your usual thing, anyway this does
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.
You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
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I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
Templars can do everything, correct me if I'm wrong :Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS, Tank, Heal and utility. Now you can outsource mobility without any real consequence, so continue, what other class can do everything? You'll go ahead and say every class can heal, so I guess I'll say "raid heal" and just for the sake of it, they also have the strongest execute.Edited by Nifty2g on July 26, 2016 12:38AM#MOREORBS1 -
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Everything else isn't worth a discussion because you are just doing your usual thing, anyway this does
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.
You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
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I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
Templars can do everything, correct me if I'm wrong :Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS, Tank, Heal and utility. Now you can outsource mobility without any real consequence, so continue, what other class can do everything? You'll go ahead and say every class can heal, so I guess I'll say "raid heal"
Use logic? Make people have to actually defend exaggerations and BS?
A NB can do every single one of those things just as good if not better. The only place where a templar outshines is burst heal simply because of breath, but my preferred burst heal on my magplar was healing ward because it was so much faster than breath and with enough hots on you you don't need breath. Oh, and the NB can do that with near infinite resources thanks to siphon attacks.
I'd also insist that magplars can't root, and templar in general has the crappiest CC of all classes, please don't try and argue that.Edited by Zheg on July 26, 2016 12:43AM5 -
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Did you simply just forget that Templars have the easiest access to Major Mending, or are you just trying to convince yourself Templars can't do everything? Read your top statement then read what you just said. Come on
Everything else isn't worth a discussion because you are just doing your usual thing, anyway this does
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.
You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
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I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
Templars can do everything, correct me if I'm wrong :Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS, Tank, Heal and utility. Now you can outsource mobility without any real consequence, so continue, what other class can do everything? You'll go ahead and say every class can heal, so I guess I'll say "raid heal"
Use logic? Make people have to actually defend exaggerations and BS?
A NB can do every single one of those things just as good if not better. The only place where a templar outshines is burst heal simply because of breath, but my preferred burst heal on my magplar was healing ward because it was so much faster than breath and with enough hots on you you don't need breath. Oh, and the NB can do that with near infinite resources thanks to siphon attacks.Edited by Nifty2g on July 26, 2016 12:44AM#MOREORBS1 -
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Did you simply just forget that Templars have the easiest access to Major Mending, or are you just trying to convince yourself Templars can't do everything? Read your top statement then read what you just said. Come on
Everything else isn't worth a discussion because you are just doing your usual thing, anyway this does
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.
You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
Templars can do everything, correct me if I'm wrong :Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS, Tank, Heal and utility. Now you can outsource mobility without any real consequence, so continue, what other class can do everything? You'll go ahead and say every class can heal, so I guess I'll say "raid heal"
Use logic? Make people have to actually defend exaggerations and BS?
A NB can do every single one of those things just as good if not better. The only place where a templar outshines is burst heal simply because of breath, but my preferred burst heal on my magplar was healing ward because it was so much faster than breath and with enough hots on you you don't need breath. Oh, and the NB can do that with near infinite resources thanks to siphon attacks.
A NB can go far further into spell dmg and max magicka than a templar can because of siphon attacks so their base resto heals hit harder, they also have funnel health as a good hot, and bridge the gap at least part of the way to major mending with siphon passives giving + healing done (the +8% max magicka helps too). They also have the strongest healing ultimate in the game, go figure. They cannot have major mending because it'd be too strong. I said templars exceed on the healing front, that's obvious. You're going to tell me NB don't exceed on the utility front? You're not actually proving anything, your line of argument right now means that every class can do everything - which to some extent they do have the options - but then your post only saying that templars can do everything is purposefully misleading. Regardless, no class can do everything at once, including templars.
Whether you want to believe it or not, my group heal build would have been better on a nb - or at least very very close.Edited by Zheg on July 26, 2016 12:55AM6 -
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You just proved your argument wrong, then by saying Nightblades can't raid heal? I mean obviously they can't.
Did you simply just forget that Templars have the easiest access to Major Mending, or are you just trying to convince yourself Templars can't do everything? Read your top statement then read what you just said. Come on
Everything else isn't worth a discussion because you are just doing your usual thing, anyway this does
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.
You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
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I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
Templars can do everything, correct me if I'm wrong :Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS, Tank, Heal and utility. Now you can outsource mobility without any real consequence, so continue, what other class can do everything? You'll go ahead and say every class can heal, so I guess I'll say "raid heal"
Use logic? Make people have to actually defend exaggerations and BS?
A NB can do every single one of those things just as good if not better. The only place where a templar outshines is burst heal simply because of breath, but my preferred burst heal on my magplar was healing ward because it was so much faster than breath and with enough hots on you you don't need breath. Oh, and the NB can do that with near infinite resources thanks to siphon attacks.
A NB can go far further into spell dmg and max magicka than a templar can because of siphon attacks so their base resto heals hit harder, they also have funnel health as a good hot, and bridge the gap at least part of the way to major mending with siphon passives giving + healing done. They cannot have major mending because it'd be too strong. I said templars exceed on the healing front, that's obvious. You're going to tell me NB don't exceed on the utility front? You're not actually proving anything, your line of argument right now means that every class can do everything - which to some extent they do have the options - but then your post only saying that templars can do everything is purposefully misleading.
You're trying to twist the argument to something I am not even arguing about lol, when did this turn into who has better resource management? But if you want to continue sure, in terms of group play for utility, I'll probably say Templars are better than Nightblades. And before you continue the argument, just make sure you go over the passives.
Also, Major Mending is stronger, so technically yeah, Templars heal better than anyone.#MOREORBS1 -
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You just proved your argument wrong, then by saying Nightblades can't raid heal? I mean obviously they can't.
Did you simply just forget that Templars have the easiest access to Major Mending, or are you just trying to convince yourself Templars can't do everything? Read your top statement then read what you just said. Come on
Everything else isn't worth a discussion because you are just doing your usual thing, anyway this does
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.
You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
Templars can do everything, correct me if I'm wrong :Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS, Tank, Heal and utility. Now you can outsource mobility without any real consequence, so continue, what other class can do everything? You'll go ahead and say every class can heal, so I guess I'll say "raid heal"
Use logic? Make people have to actually defend exaggerations and BS?
A NB can do every single one of those things just as good if not better. The only place where a templar outshines is burst heal simply because of breath, but my preferred burst heal on my magplar was healing ward because it was so much faster than breath and with enough hots on you you don't need breath. Oh, and the NB can do that with near infinite resources thanks to siphon attacks.
A NB can go far further into spell dmg and max magicka than a templar can because of siphon attacks so their base resto heals hit harder, they also have funnel health as a good hot, and bridge the gap at least part of the way to major mending with siphon passives giving + healing done. They cannot have major mending because it'd be too strong. I said templars exceed on the healing front, that's obvious. You're going to tell me NB don't exceed on the utility front? You're not actually proving anything, your line of argument right now means that every class can do everything - which to some extent they do have the options - but then your post only saying that templars can do everything is purposefully misleading.
You're trying to twist the argument to something I am not even arguing about lol, when did this turn into who has better resource management? But if you want to continue sure, in terms of group play for utility, I'll probably say Templars are better than Nightblades. And before you continue the argument, just make sure you go over the passives.
Also, Major Mending is stronger, so technically yeah, Templars heal better than anyone.
Go back and read the post, I added a bit at the end. It says the opposite of what you're claiming here. NB can ABSOLUTELY raid heal, you just can't spam breath of life over and over. Shall I go raid heal on a NB to prove you wrong? I have zero doubts about my ability to do so.
You can take your shards, I'd rather have a NB fearing for my utility. Oh, and hey, they can root on mag dps too if they want. After giving it more thought, spectral focus should also make your heals 8% stronger. Couple that with ~ 3 skills from siphon line, the only major difference becomes breath of life.Edited by Zheg on July 26, 2016 1:13AM4 -
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Yeah sure I'd be interested to see some nightblades raid heal without the help of any templars in group.
You just proved your argument wrong, then by saying Nightblades can't raid heal? I mean obviously they can't.
Did you simply just forget that Templars have the easiest access to Major Mending, or are you just trying to convince yourself Templars can't do everything? Read your top statement then read what you just said. Come on
Everything else isn't worth a discussion because you are just doing your usual thing, anyway this does
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.
You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
Templars can do everything, correct me if I'm wrong :Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS, Tank, Heal and utility. Now you can outsource mobility without any real consequence, so continue, what other class can do everything? You'll go ahead and say every class can heal, so I guess I'll say "raid heal"
Use logic? Make people have to actually defend exaggerations and BS?
A NB can do every single one of those things just as good if not better. The only place where a templar outshines is burst heal simply because of breath, but my preferred burst heal on my magplar was healing ward because it was so much faster than breath and with enough hots on you you don't need breath. Oh, and the NB can do that with near infinite resources thanks to siphon attacks.
A NB can go far further into spell dmg and max magicka than a templar can because of siphon attacks so their base resto heals hit harder, they also have funnel health as a good hot, and bridge the gap at least part of the way to major mending with siphon passives giving + healing done. They cannot have major mending because it'd be too strong. I said templars exceed on the healing front, that's obvious. You're going to tell me NB don't exceed on the utility front? You're not actually proving anything, your line of argument right now means that every class can do everything - which to some extent they do have the options - but then your post only saying that templars can do everything is purposefully misleading.
You're trying to twist the argument to something I am not even arguing about lol, when did this turn into who has better resource management? But if you want to continue sure, in terms of group play for utility, I'll probably say Templars are better than Nightblades. And before you continue the argument, just make sure you go over the passives.
Also, Major Mending is stronger, so technically yeah, Templars heal better than anyone.
Go back and read the post, I added a bit at the end. It says the opposite of what you're claiming here. NB can ABSOLUTELY raid heal, you just can't spam breath of life over and over. Shall I go raid heal on a NB to prove you wrong?
You can take your shards, I'd rather have a NB fearing for my utility. Oh, and hey, they can root on mag dps too if they want. After giving it more thought, spectral focus should also make your heals 8% stronger. Couple that with ~ 3 skills from siphon line, the only major difference becomes breath of life.
I said read the passives not skills, but sure shards are great, so is repentance/radiant aura, so is purify, so is nova. Nightblade is mostly self utility rather than group utility.
#MOREORBS1 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭It makes no sense that the tankiest class in the game with the best group utility (cheap purifies+Breath of Life) also gets access to the best execute in the game, that begins doing execute damage sooner than both of the squishy DPS-focused classes (Sorc executes begins doing increased damage at 20% while Nightblade's Impale begins doing increased damage at 25%) while also having range similar to Snipe and going through roll dodge. Look at the magic Templar toolkit, and then look at any other class' kit, and you'll see there's just no way to compete.ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/173 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah sure I'd be interested to see some nightblades raid heal without the help of any templars in group.
You just proved your argument wrong, then by saying Nightblades can't raid heal? I mean obviously they can't.
Did you simply just forget that Templars have the easiest access to Major Mending, or are you just trying to convince yourself Templars can't do everything? Read your top statement then read what you just said. Come on
Everything else isn't worth a discussion because you are just doing your usual thing, anyway this does
On templars being able to do everything, no. They can't. Stop saying it. They aren't mobile unless you slot mist form, and even then that's clunky. But if that's the bar, then every other class can slot a gap closer, or a heal, or purge, or whatever.
You are drawing conclusions from your 24v24 battles, obviously people are going to be there with their negates on hold. I don't really do 24v24 anymore, and haven't for awhile but did you miss the part where I agreed with you? Almost every night your nova was negated because that is what happens in 24v24 battles, outside of that, there is barely a sorc running around so happy he's going to use his negate for the right time, like I said in that sense obviously negate is going to be awesome, but how often does it really happen outside of a 24v24. I know you don't really run smaller group sizes and I'm not taking shots at you because everyone has their preferred style of playing. But honestly the only time I see a negate used properly is in a coordinated group, other times you can just walk out of it.
Negate is pure utility, so really, negate just lines up the other ultimates to do the work. I agree Negate is pretty awesome, but on it's own it wont do much, not every single group runs with a negate - sure you can go ahead and think how absurd and dumb it is, and I'll agree with you but it's the reality. But a Negate without a bomb lined up is not going to do much, whereas a nova with someone gravity crushing it is going to cause more damage. Shackle is no where near the strength of gravity crush.
This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.
Lets be real, right now Templar has everythingDarnathian wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?
First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.
As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.
RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?
No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.
And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)
Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.
1. Make it dodge rollable...
The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution
"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.
*****
I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).
I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.
If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.@Hashtag_
Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.
Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?
Ya you do...
RD is a execute... come on really.
What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.
I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.
The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.
Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.
There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.
And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.
The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.
Dude just bash themleepalmer95 wrote: »
Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.
Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.
You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.
Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.
Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.
Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.
Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.
How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.
I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.
Wow Nifty. I know I haven't talked to you in months, but seriously, what happened? Of all of the gap closers (chains not included, that's a different beast) toppling charge performs the worst, and has done so since launch. It's not even that it fails, it's slow and has a built in skill lock. Use ambush, crit charge, shield charge, compare to toppling charge, and then try arguing that again. You're wrong.
Nova is the strongest group ult? I don't know how to express my thoughts on that statement without insults, so I'll just correct you and say that no, it is assuredly far from the best. That honor would go to negate. If you're going to debate that then you do not have as solid a grasp of the pvp meta as you claim. I'd argue that banners are far better than novas and come 2nd on the totem pole after negates, though people can start to disagree.
Yes, I helped bring back trollplar with blazing shield, but you have to go full into HP to make that worthwhile at which point jesus beam - the skill that you made the 35th thread about, becomes useless. You can have a good shield, or you can do damage with more than a 5m range skill that's easy to counter, you cannot have 'it all'.
You didn't want to touch on the comments about having responsive skills or good CC either I see. For a class that has it all, it's almost like ... it doesn't ... and you were just exaggerating because that's the spirit when it comes to jesus beam discussions. You're welcome to disagree on things like nova being useless or having value, we're each entitled to our opinions. You're not entitled to make gross exaggerations like saying templar has everything and not expect to be called out. If you want to have a rational discussion (though I can't imagine why, this horse has been beaten to death in dozens of threads for half a year now), you don't help your case by resorting to pure hyperbole. Moreover, defending your hyperbole just makes me question whether it's even possible to debate balance with you.
As for blazing shield, I personally don't even like shields, so I'm fine with having to spec for them, but there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that as you have mentioned.
I'm not touching on CC's because I don't think shards needs anything changed other than being instant cast instead of double click, because that skill is just amazing. Throwing them on doors and groups during fights etc typically kill people and if you have stamina players in your group, stunning them is going to proc exploiter and they also give stam back.
OK, completely forget about the jesus beam salt. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but given what you just said about negate how often are you pvping lately? I'm confused if these are conclusions you've reached on your own, through word of mouth, or if it's just pvp in a vacuum/not a whole lot of time spent encountering these things. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because I don't know how to respond to you without knowing where you're coming from. The damage it does is about the same damage as a banner and more than a nova dot. You cannot break it and it functions in perfect harmony with the permaroot meta, so it stops everyone inside of it from healing themselves (barring stam builds). Negate is not just a utility ult, it hurts on its own and the utility it brings is so strong that it moves the ult into a class of its own. You talked about the damage mitigation from nova, and it blows my mind because almost every night I pvp'd in the DB patch novas were instantly negated and made useless, not even by skilled counterplay negates - just negated because so many were being dropped.
You're not making sense on the shields. "there is a reason why you have to spec for that shield for it to be useful, and it is pretty useful to run that" either you sacrifice everything else and go hp to have BS be worthwhile, or you don't, and it's a useless shield skill. It is not pretty useful to go full trollplar, not if we're talking about jesus beam balance, which is what your thread is about. You made claims that templars have everything right now, and it's false. You cannot argue that they have excellent class shields, excellent CC, excellent ults (though you seem to be convinced of this one), and an excellent gap closer (among other things) all at once. You'll look silly trying to do so. Rather than say, 'yeah, I exaggerated' - you doubled down and tried to argue that templars do have everything. Seriously, what happened?
Back when you were running the blazing shield in a raid, you were doing the highest damage. So yes it has it's places obviously. You sacrifice a lot but do a lot of damage also, seems like a fair trade off, do you honestly think that blazing shield shouldn't be speced for? Because come on. Like I said I don't even like shield so I dunno why we are arguing this one, pretty sure no one likes shields. Didn't say they have excellent anything, I said they are able to do anything. Most other classes do not have this capability, actually all other classes do not have this capability
Templars can do everything, correct me if I'm wrong :Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS, Tank, Heal and utility. Now you can outsource mobility without any real consequence, so continue, what other class can do everything? You'll go ahead and say every class can heal, so I guess I'll say "raid heal"
Use logic? Make people have to actually defend exaggerations and BS?
A NB can do every single one of those things just as good if not better. The only place where a templar outshines is burst heal simply because of breath, but my preferred burst heal on my magplar was healing ward because it was so much faster than breath and with enough hots on you you don't need breath. Oh, and the NB can do that with near infinite resources thanks to siphon attacks.
A NB can go far further into spell dmg and max magicka than a templar can because of siphon attacks so their base resto heals hit harder, they also have funnel health as a good hot, and bridge the gap at least part of the way to major mending with siphon passives giving + healing done. They cannot have major mending because it'd be too strong. I said templars exceed on the healing front, that's obvious. You're going to tell me NB don't exceed on the utility front? You're not actually proving anything, your line of argument right now means that every class can do everything - which to some extent they do have the options - but then your post only saying that templars can do everything is purposefully misleading.
You're trying to twist the argument to something I am not even arguing about lol, when did this turn into who has better resource management? But if you want to continue sure, in terms of group play for utility, I'll probably say Templars are better than Nightblades. And before you continue the argument, just make sure you go over the passives.
Also, Major Mending is stronger, so technically yeah, Templars heal better than anyone.
Go back and read the post, I added a bit at the end. It says the opposite of what you're claiming here. NB can ABSOLUTELY raid heal, you just can't spam breath of life over and over. Shall I go raid heal on a NB to prove you wrong?
You can take your shards, I'd rather have a NB fearing for my utility. Oh, and hey, they can root on mag dps too if they want. After giving it more thought, spectral focus should also make your heals 8% stronger. Couple that with ~ 3 skills from siphon line, the only major difference becomes breath of life.
I said read the passives not skills, but sure shards are great, so is repentance/radiant aura, so is purify, so is nova. Nightblade is mostly self utility rather than group utility.
Ohhhhh, now we're on no templars in group whatsoever? That's very different from not being able to raid heal at all nifty. As the lone healer I think I'd actually be able to pull it off BETTER than I would on my templar because if you're healing a group and you're the only one you cannot focus solely on breath or you'll get more people killed than otherwise should be (plus, I'll finally know what it's like to not be FF'd). There should be a magplar or stamplar in group to hit repentence, and then you're solid. That's still a pretty small group nifty, don't need 24 to pull that off.
I'll log in for the first time in weeks just to prove you emphatically wrong on this nifty, I've spent over a year raid healing, and spent weeks testing almost every set and build possible for healing when DB hit PTS. I know my build and I know group healing.
For fun little math - nb don't have major mending, confirmed. Spectral Focus (8%), siphon attack (3% passive), soul siphon (3% passive) is what I'd run on my first draft of a bar and that puts you at 14%. If you can fit in funnel or sap that puts you at 17%, pretty damn close to major mending, particularly when you have +8% max mag in addition and far better resource management so you can ditch mag regen for spell dmg glyphs. No remembrance will match the burst heal of soul siphon. NB just do utility and damage so well that you don't see any running siphon, but it's a great ult.
Also, I'm going to point out that you called radiant aura great. Things I consider to be unquestionable (like radiant aura being garbage, like toppling charge being the worst of all gap closers, like negate being far better than nova, like templar NOT being able to do everything under the sun), are not only questioned but denied by you. We'll leave things be then, there's no way I can convince you of an argument about something like jesus beam balance if we can't even come to terms on items like those.Edited by Zheg on July 26, 2016 4:28AM2 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sounds like NBs are going to be the new healers in all the raids. Kind of like when templars said sorcs would be the best healers with their pets!4 -
jeedrzej✭✭✭✭✭Im wondering... How many sites will this thread reach.
And how many we need to get attentionJeedrzej - Magica Dragonknight lvl 50
Ealian Elieilijas - Magica Sorcerer lvl 50
Enerias Kazner - Magica Templar lvl 50
Marcelius SIlny - Stamina Dragonknight lvl 50
Anvena Kazner - Stamina NIghtblade lvl 50
Arcynekromantka Anastazja - Magica Nightblade lvl 50
Threiva Krwawooka - Stamina Sorcerer lvl 50
Anvena Karen - Stamina Templat lvl 50
Furia Dorathis - Stamina Dragonknight lvl 50
Verinia Dziecię Światła - Magica Templar lvl 50
Anwen Llenariolis - Magica Warden lvl 50
Welandil Mroźne Serce - Magicka Warden lvl 50
Brunein Silny - Stamina Warden lvl 50
Jilialis Szept Nocy - Magicka Sorcerer lvl 50
Dareiva Tancerka Cieni - Stamina NIghtblade lvl 50
Doweriusz Desson - Magicka Necromancer lvl 40
Achievement Hunter
32560 Achievement Points
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305 days in-game0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As for toppling charge, it gets stuck at the slightest difference in topography all the damn time... Not fixed, not working as intended. I usually have to spam the *** out of it to get it to go off and then it's late.
If you think that's bad, try to use the DK chain for gap closer for a while.
Even if you do not get "target is too high or too low" on a perfectly flat terrain, which happens about 50% of the time, anytime the target dodges the gap closer does not move you closer to target.. Any other gap closer will miss a rolling target, but at least close the distance. This POS? nope.
1 -
ZoM_Head✭✭✭✭TF EU server in Imperial City,
A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.
The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button......
Its not just the execute, their passives are just insane. One light armoured templar in cyrodiil will out heal and out survive a group of 4 players bombarding everything they got, period. This cleansing of 5 negative effects and proccing major mending at the same time and giving them major sorcery after using a dawns wrath ability....they are the easiest class to tank, heal and dps in with as little buttons as possible.
IMO templars are the most unbalanced class there is at the moment ever since update 5 was launched, and they kept getting buffed for some reason.
But the other day was just too much for me to take, 96% up time on execute for 40 seconds....just too much.mDKs still need a lot of love!1 -
TARAFRAKA✭✭✭✭✭You know it seems like just yesterday I couldn't get away from the threads on the forums about how awful Templars were. They were apparently TERRIBLE besides shards and BOL according to the forums.
I also can't help but see the similarities in the arguments popping up here and in the nerf sorcerer threads. They can do it all! They're too tanky! They're unkillable! A group of them killed me! The sky is falling!
Today is templars, yesterday it was sorcerers, tomorrow it will be NBs. Jk, it will be DKs.
Let's just nerf nerfing, shall we? With every bizarre meta shift thrown our way, one class always appears to shine more than the others.
Templars are shining atm because damage has increased exponentially due to removal of soft caps and the addition of poisons and their native access to a much cheaper purge than in the AvA tree. The snare and be rundown meta is wrobels fault and of course a class with instant heals will shine here.
On a related note, as much as this gets forum wars sparked, a small amount of perceived imbalance is actually GOOD for games like this.
If ability A is perceived to be performing well, a certain amount of people will begin using ability A. But, a small group will try something different and inevitably discover ability B combats ability A really well.
Thus, the people using ability A will begin using ability B, while some will explore how to combat ability B and discover ability C seems to do better than ability B!
And the cycle continues. It's a series of check and balances that are needed in these types of games and any good developer knows this.
*Note this doesn't include broken or unintended sets, skills or techniques the developer doesn't program intentionally or know about. *I learned this from a developer on YouTube. Look up extra credits. It's pretty cool.
If it didn't we'd all end up standing equidistant from each other with a referee allowing each side to do one light attack to the other at a time. Then it would be nerf light attacks all over the forum.
I'm not taking sides, it's a good way to get my feels hurt by @FENGRUSH. Just wanted to throw a devils advocate perspective in.Edited by TARAFRAKA on July 26, 2016 11:56AM3 -
TARAFRAKA✭✭✭✭✭TF EU server in Imperial City,
A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.
The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button......
Its not just the execute, their passives are just insane. One light armoured templar in cyrodiil will out heal and out survive a group of 4 players bombarding everything they got, period. This cleansing of 5 negative effects and proccing major mending at the same time and giving them major sorcery after using a dawns wrath ability....they are the easiest class to tank, heal and dps in with as little buttons as possible.
IMO templars are the most unbalanced class there is at the moment ever since update 5 was launched, and they kept getting buffed for some reason.
But the other day was just too much for me to take, 96% up time on execute for 40 seconds....just too much.
If this skill is as OP as it is claimed...how'd you survive 40 seconds of it with 4vsOnly you? Half the people in this thread are saying it kills them after one tick!
If an execute took 40 seconds to kill you with 3 OTHERS also attacking, then it is not overpeforming. Heck, it should be buffed based on your anecdote. This isn't helping the cause, man. O.o
Edited by TARAFRAKA on July 26, 2016 11:54AM4 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Sorc shields hold that record.
For the past 6 months its felt more like people keep trying to post/create duplicate threads in the hopes that people disagreeing will give up, zos will see multiple threads and posts asking for something with no disgreement, and cave.
Perhaps the World Record for the most Threads about the same topic?
Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider0 -
ZoM_Head✭✭✭✭TF EU server in Imperial City,
A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.
The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button......
Its not just the execute, their passives are just insane. One light armoured templar in cyrodiil will out heal and out survive a group of 4 players bombarding everything they got, period. This cleansing of 5 negative effects and proccing major mending at the same time and giving them major sorcery after using a dawns wrath ability....they are the easiest class to tank, heal and dps in with as little buttons as possible.
IMO templars are the most unbalanced class there is at the moment ever since update 5 was launched, and they kept getting buffed for some reason.
But the other day was just too much for me to take, 96% up time on execute for 40 seconds....just too much.
If this skill is as OP as it is claimed...how'd you survive 40 seconds of it with 4vsOnly you? Half the people in this thread are saying it kills them after one tick!
If an execute took 40 seconds to kill you with 3 OTHERS also attacking, then it is not overpeforming. Heck, it should be buffed based on your anecdote. This isn't helping the cause, man. O.o
Because of pots, deep breath, devouring swarm, occasionally bashing that 1 player when i could (kept moving away), dodging towards him etc. He was my main priority, the other 3 were just inexperienced and used almost no ccs on me. Despite all i did, his heals kept them alive. Just like any inexperienced templar spamming 1 button does not always win, especially when you are grouped against 3 others that were doing nothing but ambush spamming, dizzling swing spamming and what not (same rubbish of 1 button spamming from the others). Pulled some NPCs as well to make them shift their focus a bit, but that 1 templar....just would not stop.
That beam 90% of the time does kill me pretty much in 2-3 seconds, my point was how pretty much every templar spams the oblivion out of this ability like the 11 other skills (ultis included) do not matter.
Dont let 1 lucky fluke make you (or anyone) think that RO is fine as it is, by all means if you ask me, it should never have been changed in the first place.
Kind of makes me believe, that the dev's main characters are templars (bretons) and nightblades (khajiits), they can not get around sorcs and dks, hence why they make it easier every buff/tweak for them as possible, while hammering the rest to the ground.
"Templars, your moment in the sun has arrived" by Eric Wroeble, anyone remember this?mDKs still need a lot of love!0 -
_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »
Sorc shields hold that record.
For the past 6 months its felt more like people keep trying to post/create duplicate threads in the hopes that people disagreeing will give up, zos will see multiple threads and posts asking for something with no disgreement, and cave.
Perhaps the World Record for the most Threads about the same topic?
No, RD has surpassed that by far.
@Nifty2g you're one of those guys that drops a nova in an open field small scale fight aren't you?'Chaos2 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You new around here or something?Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »
Sorc shields hold that record.
For the past 6 months its felt more like people keep trying to post/create duplicate threads in the hopes that people disagreeing will give up, zos will see multiple threads and posts asking for something with no disgreement, and cave.
Perhaps the World Record for the most Threads about the same topic?
No, RD has surpassed that by far.
@Nifty2g you're one of those guys that drops a nova in an open field small scale fight aren't you?
Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider1 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please nerf nightblades. They are the reason zergs exist.TF EU server in Imperial City,
A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.
The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button......
Its not just the execute, their passives are just insane. One light armoured templar in cyrodiil will out heal and out survive a group of 4 players bombarding everything they got, period. This cleansing of 5 negative effects and proccing major mending at the same time and giving them major sorcery after using a dawns wrath ability....they are the easiest class to tank, heal and dps in with as little buttons as possible.
IMO templars are the most unbalanced class there is at the moment ever since update 5 was launched, and they kept getting buffed for some reason.
But the other day was just too much for me to take, 96% up time on execute for 40 seconds....just too much.
If this skill is as OP as it is claimed...how'd you survive 40 seconds of it with 4vsOnly you? Half the people in this thread are saying it kills them after one tick!
If an execute took 40 seconds to kill you with 3 OTHERS also attacking, then it is not overpeforming. Heck, it should be buffed based on your anecdote. This isn't helping the cause, man. O.o
Because of pots, deep breath, devouring swarm, occasionally bashing that 1 player when i could (kept moving away), dodging towards him etc. He was my main priority, the other 3 were just inexperienced and used almost no ccs on me. Despite all i did, his heals kept them alive. Just like any inexperienced templar spamming 1 button does not always win, especially when you are grouped against 3 others that were doing nothing but ambush spamming, dizzling swing spamming and what not (same rubbish of 1 button spamming from the others). Pulled some NPCs as well to make them shift their focus a bit, but that 1 templar....just would not stop.
That beam 90% of the time does kill me pretty much in 2-3 seconds, my point was how pretty much every templar spams the oblivion out of this ability like the 11 other skills (ultis included) do not matter.
Dont let 1 lucky fluke make you (or anyone) think that RO is fine as it is, by all means if you ask me, it should never have been changed in the first place.
Kind of makes me believe, that the dev's main characters are templars (bretons) and nightblades (khajiits), they can not get around sorcs and dks, hence why they make it easier every buff/tweak for them as possible, while hammering the rest to the ground.
"Templars, your moment in the sun has arrived" by Eric Wroeble, anyone remember this?
How does he have time to heal if his combat metrics was showing a 96.7% uptime?4 -
_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »
You new around here or something?Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »
Sorc shields hold that record.
For the past 6 months its felt more like people keep trying to post/create duplicate threads in the hopes that people disagreeing will give up, zos will see multiple threads and posts asking for something with no disgreement, and cave.
Perhaps the World Record for the most Threads about the same topic?
No, RD has surpassed that by far.
@Nifty2g you're one of those guys that drops a nova in an open field small scale fight aren't you?
You were gone for how long?
Sorry to break it to you, but RD has most definitely taken the title from the shield stacking threads.'Chaos0 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you had to rank builds where would you rank a stamina and a Magicka templar?
Please list all1 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Three months and RD has a ways to go, but I'm happy to help it get there.Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »
You new around here or something?Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »
Sorc shields hold that record.
For the past 6 months its felt more like people keep trying to post/create duplicate threads in the hopes that people disagreeing will give up, zos will see multiple threads and posts asking for something with no disgreement, and cave.
Perhaps the World Record for the most Threads about the same topic?
No, RD has surpassed that by far.
@Nifty2g you're one of those guys that drops a nova in an open field small scale fight aren't you?
You were gone for how long?
Sorry to break it to you, but RD has most definitely taken the title from the shield stacking threads.Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider0
https://youtu.be/8xendBXWr_w?t=30s