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Lets Balance Radiant Destruction
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Magus✭✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.Duraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
PC/NA4 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.4 -
Magus✭✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Hey, that was my aggo. Let me be tank, silly healer!
Edit: the 2nd quote was yours, thought it was mine too lolEdited by Magus on July 28, 2016 8:27PMDuraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
PC/NA0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.2 -
Magus✭✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Rally is a burst heal, potions are a burst heal, vigor/dark deal give you an ok heal over time but more importantly you have allies who provide healing to you. And no, you would just laugh at a magplar trying to beam you in a 1v1 while you spam dizzying swing and then dawnbreaker of smiting with 6k weapon damage and kill them before they have a chance to even cc break - unless they have a lucky malubeth proc, which is the real reason it is so hated because you will be inconvenienced by having to essentially kill them twice. You could choose to slot a purge but you would be giving up something. You could use a synergy from a ritual from a templar or block the radiant. None of that will help you with multiple beams on you, like you usually find in cyrodiil diving headfirst into a zerg. 40m range is atypical (need propelling shield), a lot of time the beam is from max range so a streak in the opposite direction will break it - do that often on magsorc.
The way you present this argument is more level headed though and found myself saying that is almost reasonable. Better than when you complained about a templar healing another templar in a video that you were unable to kill in an earlier patch, without having the big burst build you have now and without having a heal debuff on your bar.
Duraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
PC/NA3 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The nerf battle is never ending....especially for classes you don't really play. But anyways, just reduce the range to that of gap closers. It won't stop all of the whining, but it will help. I'm for small changes to skills, over many or big ones.1 -
Hempyre✭✭✭✭Reducing the range to gap closers is not a fix.
It would be the end of RD.
Every stam build out there is greedily rubbing thier hands together hoping this happens.
5 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Reducing the range to gap closers is not a fix.
It would be the end of RD.
Every stam build out there is greedily rubbing thier hands together hoping this happens.
Why will it be the end?PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Double post...Edited by leepalmer95 on July 28, 2016 10:55PMPS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Hempyre✭✭✭✭It snares the caster, and temps have mobility issues already. And locks into an animation until it finishes or you bar swap, neither of which gets to happen when hit with Crit Charge and Dizzying Swing, both of which hit way harder than RD.
4 -
Hempyre✭✭✭✭It snares the caster, and temps have mobility issues already. And locks into an animation until it finishes or you bar swap, neither of which gets to happen when hit with Crit Charge and Dizzying Swing, both of which hit way harder than RD.
0 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It snares the caster, and temps have mobility issues already. And locks into an animation until it finishes or you bar swap, neither of which gets to happen when hit with Crit Charge and Dizzying Swing, both of which hit way harder than RD.
We've been over this before. But if they are going to change anything about RD, this is the only acceptable change. It must be undodgeable and must still be high damage in execute range. I will lose a few kills if the range is reduced. But I can live with that. In the end, most of my RD kills come from within the range of gap closers.0 -
Hempyre✭✭✭✭Ya this wheel keeps turning.. I don't personally see that it needs to be changed. It's easy to avoid. And no different than the dozen bow spammers in the zerg hanging back looking for easy kills.
Lets turn the graphic off or make it minimal like the bow skill that shares the same mechanic and see if people still complain. I'd wager not nearly a much.
Saw you in the tower farm last night.
Cheers.1 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ya this wheel keeps turning.. I don't personally see that it needs to be changed. It's easy to avoid. And no different than the dozen bow spammers in the zerg hanging back looking for easy kills.
Lets turn the graphic off or make it minimal like the bow skill that shares the same mechanic and see if people still complain. I'd wager not nearly a much.
Saw you in the tower farm last night.
Cheers.
Haha. I know. I've always felt it was fine as is, too. But I can see slightly lowering the range to that of Crit charge okay. I can live with that.
Tower farm? Me? Never! You EP? Or DC? 0 -
Winnamine✭✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Ah yes, no nerf templar thread could be complete without a @FENGRUSH rant on the subject.Winni
~
VE
Decibel5 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Rally is a burst heal, potions are a burst heal, vigor/dark deal give you an ok heal over time but more importantly you have allies who provide healing to you. And no, you would just laugh at a magplar trying to beam you in a 1v1 while you spam dizzying swing and then dawnbreaker of smiting with 6k weapon damage and kill them before they have a chance to even cc break - unless they have a lucky malubeth proc, which is the real reason it is so hated because you will be inconvenienced by having to essentially kill them twice. You could choose to slot a purge but you would be giving up something. You could use a synergy from a ritual from a templar or block the radiant. None of that will help you with multiple beams on you, like you usually find in cyrodiil diving headfirst into a zerg. 40m range is atypical (need propelling shield), a lot of time the beam is from max range so a streak in the opposite direction will break it - do that often on magsorc.
The way you present this argument is more level headed though and found myself saying that is almost reasonable. Better than when you complained about a templar healing another templar in a video that you were unable to kill in an earlier patch, without having the big burst build you have now and without having a heal debuff on your bar.
Yea - Rally is the only real burst heal available. Its just not always available as a good burst heal really. Its much easier and more often a 'burst' heal when I played my stam DK - the lack of healing received makes self healing a little different on a stam sorc. But that is allright, stam sorc has its advantages, and then it has its disadvantages. Im OK with that, and I dont want to ask for mending on it either - not every class should have everything. Not all skills should function the same, I really enjoy the differences between classes and hope to keep them (like with this skill) and see it done more down the line.
As far as the templar healing thing - that was a real mess in explaining it. The game has certainly shifted from there. I tried to explain the issue more of a CP system/lack of burst option. This meta has a lot more burst potential for both stam and mag (not relying on det thank god) and I consider that an improvement. The CP system is still another juggernaut to tackle altogether. But that is part of what skews healing - and there are debuff to healing options now too. A lot has changed then. Healers (templars) in numbers was a real problem that patch, and a large chunk of class options literally had no option or business being involved in certain fights. I dont advocate for being able to 1vX any numbers or situation - I just try to advocate for players having an option to fight even when outnumbered. And tying solutions to setups like vicious and det (magicka only) was a real kick in the balls too if you played in my shoes as well.
Multiple beams will definitely trash you - thats the downside to having multiple counters on your character. Im rarely soloing out in Cyro, I am in group play. I just want to start with a delay on the invisible bursting that occurs so players can actually fight out there in a reasonable fashion.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Ah yes, no nerf templar thread could be complete without a @FENGRUSH rant on the subject.
Reported for baiting, trolling, naming and shaming.2 -
Winnamine✭✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Rally is a burst heal, potions are a burst heal, vigor/dark deal give you an ok heal over time but more importantly you have allies who provide healing to you. And no, you would just laugh at a magplar trying to beam you in a 1v1 while you spam dizzying swing and then dawnbreaker of smiting with 6k weapon damage and kill them before they have a chance to even cc break - unless they have a lucky malubeth proc, which is the real reason it is so hated because you will be inconvenienced by having to essentially kill them twice. You could choose to slot a purge but you would be giving up something. You could use a synergy from a ritual from a templar or block the radiant. None of that will help you with multiple beams on you, like you usually find in cyrodiil diving headfirst into a zerg. 40m range is atypical (need propelling shield), a lot of time the beam is from max range so a streak in the opposite direction will break it - do that often on magsorc.
The way you present this argument is more level headed though and found myself saying that is almost reasonable. Better than when you complained about a templar healing another templar in a video that you were unable to kill in an earlier patch, without having the big burst build you have now and without having a heal debuff on your bar.
Yea - Rally is the only real burst heal available. Its just not always available as a good burst heal really. Its much easier and more often a 'burst' heal when I played my stam DK - the lack of healing received makes self healing a little different on a stam sorc. But that is allright, stam sorc has its advantages, and then it has its disadvantages. Im OK with that, and I dont want to ask for mending on it either - not every class should have everything. Not all skills should function the same, I really enjoy the differences between classes and hope to keep them (like with this skill) and see it done more down the line.
As far as the templar healing thing - that was a real mess in explaining it. The game has certainly shifted from there. I tried to explain the issue more of a CP system/lack of burst option. This meta has a lot more burst potential for both stam and mag (not relying on det thank god) and I consider that an improvement. The CP system is still another juggernaut to tackle altogether. But that is part of what skews healing - and there are debuff to healing options now too. A lot has changed then. Healers (templars) in numbers was a real problem that patch, and a large chunk of class options literally had no option or business being involved in certain fights. I dont advocate for being able to 1vX any numbers or situation - I just try to advocate for players having an option to fight even when outnumbered. And tying solutions to setups like vicious and det (magicka only) was a real kick in the balls too if you played in my shoes as well.
Multiple beams will definitely trash you - thats the downside to having multiple counters on your character. Im rarely soloing out in Cyro, I am in group play. I just want to start with a delay on the invisible bursting that occurs so players can actually fight out there in a reasonable fashion.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Ah yes, no nerf templar thread could be complete without a @FENGRUSH rant on the subject.
Reported for baiting, trolling, naming and shaming.
Aw, Fengrush, do you feel shamed?Winni
~
VE
Decibel5 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Rally is a burst heal, potions are a burst heal, vigor/dark deal give you an ok heal over time but more importantly you have allies who provide healing to you. And no, you would just laugh at a magplar trying to beam you in a 1v1 while you spam dizzying swing and then dawnbreaker of smiting with 6k weapon damage and kill them before they have a chance to even cc break - unless they have a lucky malubeth proc, which is the real reason it is so hated because you will be inconvenienced by having to essentially kill them twice. You could choose to slot a purge but you would be giving up something. You could use a synergy from a ritual from a templar or block the radiant. None of that will help you with multiple beams on you, like you usually find in cyrodiil diving headfirst into a zerg. 40m range is atypical (need propelling shield), a lot of time the beam is from max range so a streak in the opposite direction will break it - do that often on magsorc.
The way you present this argument is more level headed though and found myself saying that is almost reasonable. Better than when you complained about a templar healing another templar in a video that you were unable to kill in an earlier patch, without having the big burst build you have now and without having a heal debuff on your bar.
Yea - Rally is the only real burst heal available. Its just not always available as a good burst heal really. Its much easier and more often a 'burst' heal when I played my stam DK - the lack of healing received makes self healing a little different on a stam sorc. But that is allright, stam sorc has its advantages, and then it has its disadvantages. Im OK with that, and I dont want to ask for mending on it either - not every class should have everything. Not all skills should function the same, I really enjoy the differences between classes and hope to keep them (like with this skill) and see it done more down the line.
As far as the templar healing thing - that was a real mess in explaining it. The game has certainly shifted from there. I tried to explain the issue more of a CP system/lack of burst option. This meta has a lot more burst potential for both stam and mag (not relying on det thank god) and I consider that an improvement. The CP system is still another juggernaut to tackle altogether. But that is part of what skews healing - and there are debuff to healing options now too. A lot has changed then. Healers (templars) in numbers was a real problem that patch, and a large chunk of class options literally had no option or business being involved in certain fights. I dont advocate for being able to 1vX any numbers or situation - I just try to advocate for players having an option to fight even when outnumbered. And tying solutions to setups like vicious and det (magicka only) was a real kick in the balls too if you played in my shoes as well.
Multiple beams will definitely trash you - thats the downside to having multiple counters on your character. Im rarely soloing out in Cyro, I am in group play. I just want to start with a delay on the invisible bursting that occurs so players can actually fight out there in a reasonable fashion.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Ah yes, no nerf templar thread could be complete without a @FENGRUSH rant on the subject.
Reported for baiting, trolling, naming and shaming.
Aw, Fengrush, do you feel shamed?
No - but you tried!1 -
Winnamine✭✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Rally is a burst heal, potions are a burst heal, vigor/dark deal give you an ok heal over time but more importantly you have allies who provide healing to you. And no, you would just laugh at a magplar trying to beam you in a 1v1 while you spam dizzying swing and then dawnbreaker of smiting with 6k weapon damage and kill them before they have a chance to even cc break - unless they have a lucky malubeth proc, which is the real reason it is so hated because you will be inconvenienced by having to essentially kill them twice. You could choose to slot a purge but you would be giving up something. You could use a synergy from a ritual from a templar or block the radiant. None of that will help you with multiple beams on you, like you usually find in cyrodiil diving headfirst into a zerg. 40m range is atypical (need propelling shield), a lot of time the beam is from max range so a streak in the opposite direction will break it - do that often on magsorc.
The way you present this argument is more level headed though and found myself saying that is almost reasonable. Better than when you complained about a templar healing another templar in a video that you were unable to kill in an earlier patch, without having the big burst build you have now and without having a heal debuff on your bar.
Yea - Rally is the only real burst heal available. Its just not always available as a good burst heal really. Its much easier and more often a 'burst' heal when I played my stam DK - the lack of healing received makes self healing a little different on a stam sorc. But that is allright, stam sorc has its advantages, and then it has its disadvantages. Im OK with that, and I dont want to ask for mending on it either - not every class should have everything. Not all skills should function the same, I really enjoy the differences between classes and hope to keep them (like with this skill) and see it done more down the line.
As far as the templar healing thing - that was a real mess in explaining it. The game has certainly shifted from there. I tried to explain the issue more of a CP system/lack of burst option. This meta has a lot more burst potential for both stam and mag (not relying on det thank god) and I consider that an improvement. The CP system is still another juggernaut to tackle altogether. But that is part of what skews healing - and there are debuff to healing options now too. A lot has changed then. Healers (templars) in numbers was a real problem that patch, and a large chunk of class options literally had no option or business being involved in certain fights. I dont advocate for being able to 1vX any numbers or situation - I just try to advocate for players having an option to fight even when outnumbered. And tying solutions to setups like vicious and det (magicka only) was a real kick in the balls too if you played in my shoes as well.
Multiple beams will definitely trash you - thats the downside to having multiple counters on your character. Im rarely soloing out in Cyro, I am in group play. I just want to start with a delay on the invisible bursting that occurs so players can actually fight out there in a reasonable fashion.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Ah yes, no nerf templar thread could be complete without a @FENGRUSH rant on the subject.
Reported for baiting, trolling, naming and shaming.
Aw, Fengrush, do you feel shamed?
No - but you tried!
Geez you're so sensitiveWinni
~
VE
Decibel3 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Geez you're so sensitive
He's actually just a closet magplar. I first started suspecting it when he so passionately and publicly made his hate for healing be known. Notice who he tends to pick fights with over all others - templars. Notice his frequent posts on jesus beam and breath of life. Textbook templarophobe behavior lashing out at those he so desperately seeks the approval and company of. We just need to be supportive and hope that he one day has the bravery to announce to the world that he's buying a templar house and he doesn't care who comes inside!
You have friends fengrush, friends who love you no matter what.7 -
Magus✭✭✭✭✭I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Rally is a burst heal, potions are a burst heal, vigor/dark deal give you an ok heal over time but more importantly you have allies who provide healing to you. And no, you would just laugh at a magplar trying to beam you in a 1v1 while you spam dizzying swing and then dawnbreaker of smiting with 6k weapon damage and kill them before they have a chance to even cc break - unless they have a lucky malubeth proc, which is the real reason it is so hated because you will be inconvenienced by having to essentially kill them twice. You could choose to slot a purge but you would be giving up something. You could use a synergy from a ritual from a templar or block the radiant. None of that will help you with multiple beams on you, like you usually find in cyrodiil diving headfirst into a zerg. 40m range is atypical (need propelling shield), a lot of time the beam is from max range so a streak in the opposite direction will break it - do that often on magsorc.
The way you present this argument is more level headed though and found myself saying that is almost reasonable. Better than when you complained about a templar healing another templar in a video that you were unable to kill in an earlier patch, without having the big burst build you have now and without having a heal debuff on your bar.
Yea - Rally is the only real burst heal available. Its just not always available as a good burst heal really. Its much easier and more often a 'burst' heal when I played my stam DK - the lack of healing received makes self healing a little different on a stam sorc. But that is allright, stam sorc has its advantages, and then it has its disadvantages. Im OK with that, and I dont want to ask for mending on it either - not every class should have everything. Not all skills should function the same, I really enjoy the differences between classes and hope to keep them (like with this skill) and see it done more down the line.
As far as the templar healing thing - that was a real mess in explaining it. The game has certainly shifted from there. I tried to explain the issue more of a CP system/lack of burst option. This meta has a lot more burst potential for both stam and mag (not relying on det thank god) and I consider that an improvement. The CP system is still another juggernaut to tackle altogether. But that is part of what skews healing - and there are debuff to healing options now too. A lot has changed then. Healers (templars) in numbers was a real problem that patch, and a large chunk of class options literally had no option or business being involved in certain fights. I dont advocate for being able to 1vX any numbers or situation - I just try to advocate for players having an option to fight even when outnumbered. And tying solutions to setups like vicious and det (magicka only) was a real kick in the balls too if you played in my shoes as well.
Multiple beams will definitely trash you - thats the downside to having multiple counters on your character. Im rarely soloing out in Cyro, I am in group play. I just want to start with a delay on the invisible bursting that occurs so players can actually fight out there in a reasonable fashion.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
Wait, youre complaining because im not arguing with you about the tick? XD have i damaged you enough these past few months that you require my banter to feel at peace? I agree on the non-instant damage, and it doesnt change anything about the skill. The reason for changing it is pretty basic and well agreed upon, if people want to argue theyre welcome to.
On the other facets, particularly ones that would result in significant changes, yes, you do need to present a stronger case. Id point out that you say the only change you think needs to happen is the instant tick, which would mean you disagree with all of the nerf calls. So, youre actually in my corner and just to shy to admit it, or youre not being forthcoming. Either way, lulz.
Im not for making 2-3 huge changes to skills functional states and calling it balance. Thats what usually happens when people get in a contest saying its OP, no its not OP, you L2P. In this case, I think there is valid case of things needing to be changed and seeing how it feels. Instead we will wait 6 months and get a new skill altogether.I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.
Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.
So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.
This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.
The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.
Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.
This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.
Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?
Yes - because it doesnt function like other executes. If you want it to be instant, have its damage outside of 25% be useless. Frankly that would be enough. If you want to equal up - then it wouldnt go through dodge either. Watch someone spam impale and mages fury for example - its pitiful.What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.
I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.
Think you missed the point on that one. Point is, you agree the first tick needs adjustment when I bring it up. You dont actually reason that point outside of me throwing it back in your face. You will see no mention of it anywhere. You will tell others its fine as is and they need to prove you otherwise. When I tell you the first tick is not right, you actually say its not fine as is.
Be consistent in your discussion, or just banter endlessly on the forums for the sake of bantering. Youre not here to discuss reasonably. It is clear and evident - youre here to argue.
I would be fine with every execute only functioning at 25% for bonus damage. This includes poison injection and executioner too. Increase mage fury from 19% to 25% too. OMG a magsorc buff. PVErs would be mad at this change though.
I was simply agreeing and mentioning how the instant damage mechanic works across other abilities too. The lack of a visual is the bug, not that it is an instant damage deal.
A 3k dps for the beam outside of execute range for a standard balanced build would sort of be the target damage spot for me to see it being balanced without being useless, which isn't really far off from what it is now. Compare that someone spamming dizzying swing for 5-10k dps or surprise attack for same range.
The banter as you call it was just saying RD counters roll dodge mitigation. Yes, it's annoying. There exist hard counters to other things in this game too. Magsorc vs MDK is annoying fight if both players are competent, for instance.
I am very much on board with certain classes have different skills that counter certain builds. Beam is very strong against my stam sorc as I have no burst heal, burst shield, or strong access to mending to block and bank on vigor. No purge either. I rely on mobility, and the way things work, a streak generally doesnt get you out of range as streak doesnt go 40m in under 1 second. But this is part of making a decision when you engage your targets and playing smart.
Counters need to be in game. More importantly, I enjoy having skills that are functionally different. EI: an execute that has different range but different mechanics and mitigation options. Some things are just dumb, like meteor not being able to be reflected. Beam is channeled, its very relevant in small scale even combat. When numbers vary, it becomes obsene. Regardless - opponents need time to react. Its something they arent able to do effectively in the current threshold that beam operates at. The other problem is related to templars and builds in general. Shouldnt be included in balancing this skill though, thats a class issue altogether not worth bringing up here.
I honestly feel changing beams instant damage is a no brainer right now. Even with purge, most people take 2 ticks, but they are really reacting to the 2nd one. The first one - there is no reaction, blocking, or choices to be made. Thats fine when its a NB executing (lol) because you could be dodging or healing already at that point. But not everyone is healing or dodging at 35-40%, they might be closing a kill, get beamed, and its all over.
Ah yes, no nerf templar thread could be complete without a @FENGRUSH rant on the subject.
Reported for baiting, trolling, naming and shaming.
I much prefer this calculated and subdued way of explaining your point of view, though it probably wouldn't translate to being as entertaining in a video format. In that same patch, I ran healing debuffs and didn't have issues killing multiple templars with a stamDK but I don't remember if beam was still dodgeable then, so yes a lot has changed. ZOS has proven themselves incapable of making any gradual balancing options or they do the changes too late when they are no longer needed. Whether fairly or not, I do associate you with many of the healing nerfs that came to templars for how critical of advocate you were. So, I would just caution that ZOS is /lurking or watching the streams and are like a craftsman with only a hammer that thinks everything is a nail.
Even if they did add a delay to the ability, like they added to breath of life - you can still get the instant heal but it requires an animation cancel and you obviously can't do that with a channel - I don't think it will help with the main issue of radiant destruction. Multiple templars spamming it on you from afar while you are fighting someone else melee. Yeah you could see the beam but there still isn't much you could do to react unless you suddenly decided to run a purge on your front bar - which ironically also counters malubeth users. Still might be an improvement and worth testing but in practice, won't change the outcome much but does have an affect in a 1v1 situation. I will rely on that instant cast if I get them down to like 20% and without it, they may have the chance to recover due to the delay (i.e., get up from a cc and spam a heal) but that wouldn't be the end of the world, just a longer fight until one of our zergs runs over one of us 20v1.
Also Zheg just sorta won the forums with his last comment.Duraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
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PainfulFAFA✭✭✭✭✭
✭jesus beam's insta tick whether its a bug or not hasnt been a problem for me at all. All i know is that anytime im under 50%... ANYTHING will kill me whether its ridiculous poison injection, splash damage from reverse slice, or just a regular jesus beam. Theres too many drawbacks to beaming somebody to call it balanced by nerfing its range/damage.
As for jesus beam being op in pve and double dipping? Lmao..well so can poison injection.... and u can also pair that up with re-arming trap so if u really think about it jesus beam needs a buff
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Van_0S✭✭✭✭✭RD for groups is good but for duels its not, because anyone can bash that skill and that will be the end of that templar.2 -
Elong✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »jesus beam's insta tick whether its a bug or not hasnt been a problem for me at all. All i know is that anytime im under 50%... ANYTHING will kill me whether its ridiculous poison injection, splash damage from reverse slice, or just a regular jesus beam. Theres too many drawbacks to beaming somebody to call it balanced by nerfing its range/damage.
As for jesus beam being op in pve and double dipping? Lmao..well so can poison injection.... and u can also pair that up with re-arming trap so if u really think about it jesus beam needs a buff
I'm thinking of using a bow and pairing up a poison injection/RD combo with my Pelinal's set
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leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RD for groups is good but for duels its not, because anyone can bash that skill and that will be the end of that templar.
Not if a templar knows how to actually use it. It's a execute that hits very hard and is insant.
PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Van_0S✭✭✭✭✭0
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maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »
Saying it's instant is a bit misleading. The initial tick is instant, but not the entire damage of the channel. But if you are very low health, then that tick should kill you. Being a channel also snares you even with that initial tick. Therefore it is different from an instant execute that allows you to remain mobile.
I honestly get tired of people not giving the whole picture. You seem to purposely give false information or a lack of information which then spreads to those who do not know better.Edited by maxjapank on July 31, 2016 12:14AM2
