The Magicka / Stamina Divide

Draxys · July 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

10/10, would +agree again

Poxheart wrote: »

Agree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.

Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?

KenaPKK wrote: »

Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.

I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.

I can't really add anything that you or anyone else hasn't said. Everything is a mess, and the only way to improve it is to go back on some of the things they've done, which we all know will likely never happen.

"Play the way you want" killed pvp in this game.

Stikato · July 2016

I think that both 1.5 and post 1.5 had their pro's and con's, and a lot of time these lines were even blurred. For example, dynamic ult generation was a double-edged sword. Or, the rise in stamina builds, which has promoted diversity to an extent, but--as you point out--has been predicated on the reliance on a very small set of skills that themselves lead to homogenization.

In the final analysis, ZOS has botched the entire system by:

- Obfuscating a very confusing combat system at launch (IIRC, destro skills used magicka, were based on weapon damage, except for light / heavy attacks which were based on stamina?)

- Creating a weird magicka /stamina divide between class and weapon skills. So yes, hybrid builds technically "existed", but only because S&S and resto were so damned powerful. Most effective builds utilized the largely-unknown quirks in the system. Unique builds that did not take advantage of these quirks we crushed.

- Perhaps reacting to the pop drop over the first several months, we got 1.6. Immediately it was clear the magicka DK was nerfed to uselessness, Max magicka Sorc was now god-mode, and the removal of soft caps was likely a mistake. But rather than address these individual issues, ZOS doubled-down with the battle-spirit change in order to smooth out the extremes.

- The problem was, the previous emphasis on burst had forced a generation of pvp'ers to learn to rely on active defenses (shields / dodging). All the reduction in damage did was make it insanely hard for newer players to get kills. Despite a LOT of griping on the forums around this time that the better players could not kill as effectively as before, eventually most of us adjusted and figured out how to push damage again.

- Finally, the use of (sometimes difficult to achieve) weapons / armor sets to balance parts of PVP is terrible. Put simply, the sets in this game are themselves OP.

In short, ZOS has pushed massive changes to the system at each large iteration, and refuses to make the small balance passes that a required in a game such as this. The decisions they make continually widen the gulf between players and turn the game into a PVE RNG-fest in order to PVP. This to me does not create a successful RVR style game.

What I am trying to say is, calling this a magicka/stamina divide is not addressing the root cause of these issues: the game was terribly balanced to begin with, and the decisions ZOS has made have not structurally improved it. There is no semblance of balance, unless you are willing to play one of a few set builds.

Ishammael · July 2016

Stikato wrote: »

I think that both 1.5 and post 1.5 had their pro's and con's, and a lot of time these lines were even blurred. For example, dynamic ult generation was a double-edged sword. Or, the rise in stamina builds, which has promoted diversity to an extent, but--as you point out--has been predicated on the reliance on a very small set of skills that themselves lead to homogenization.

In the final analysis, ZOS has botched the entire system by:

- Obfuscating a very confusing combat system at launch (IIRC, destro skills used magicka, were based on weapon damage, except for light / heavy attacks which were based on stamina?)

- Creating a weird magicka /stamina divide between class and weapon skills. So yes, hybrid builds technically "existed", but only because S&S and resto were so damned powerful. Most effective builds utilized the largely-unknown quirks in the system. Unique builds that did not take advantage of these quirks we crushed.

- Perhaps reacting to the pop drop over the first several months, we got 1.6. Immediately it was clear the magicka DK was nerfed to uselessness, Max magicka Sorc was now god-mode, and the removal of soft caps was likely a mistake. But rather than address these individual issues, ZOS doubled-down with the battle-spirit change in order to smooth out the extremes.

- The problem was, the previous emphasis on burst had forced a generation of pvp'ers to learn to rely on active defenses (shields / dodging). All the reduction in damage did was make it insanely hard for newer players to get kills. Despite a LOT of griping on the forums around this time that the better players could not kill as effectively as before, eventually most of us adjusted and figured out how to push damage again.

- Finally, the use of (sometimes difficult to achieve) weapons / armor sets to balance parts of PVP is terrible. Put simply, the sets in this game are themselves OP.

In short, ZOS has pushed massive changes to the system at each large iteration, and refuses to make the small balance passes that a required in a game such as this. The decisions they make continually widen the gulf between players and turn the game into a PVE RNG-fest in order to PVP. This to me does not create a successful RVR style game.

What I am trying to say is, calling this a magicka/stamina divide is not addressing the root cause of these issues: the game was terribly balanced to begin with, and the decisions ZOS has made have not structurally improved it. There is no semblance of balance, unless you are willing to play one of a few set builds.

This is a good overall assessment including points I missed.

Some other things that I thought of while reading.
1. Originally, heavy resto attacks restored mana. No other weapons did this.
2. Resto staff also increased your dmg, which was hilarious.
3. Destro staff passives used to apply to ALL skills, not just the staff skills.
4. Ult gen worked on a range of things which were not explained.

Ffastyl · July 2016

Dynamic ultimate generation was intended to reward skilled play. With how it was set up, it somewhat accomplished this. The lack of cooldown on ultimate generation meant fighting more enemies directly translated to more ultimate gained - even to a point where ultimates could have constant up time. The system also had the weird and ultimately broken feature of granting ultimate for critical strikes. As then as now, there is no cap on critical chance. People stacked critical chance to 60% or higher and the dynamic ultimate system in turn gave them enough ultimate to allow regular use. Crit builds could use ultimates 3 to 5 times within a single engagement. On the contrary, a non-crit build, for example a tank, would get one ultimate per dungeon, two if it was very low cost.

The system was good in all but how it treated critical strikes, which created the vast divide in ultimate generation between builds.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2016

The Magicka Stamina Divide can be summed up very easily. There is one passive in the game that makes Stamina Builds Stupidly OP...well two to be exact that no magic build can even hope to compete with.

1. Unchained - Reduces the Stamina cost of abilities by 80% for 3 seconds after breaking free of a stun, knockdown, fear, disorient, or stagger.

What do Magic Users get?

1. Foresight - Reduces the Magicka cost of your next spell by 80% after you drink a potion.

I mean potions have a 40 sec cooldown so we get 1 spell with its costs reduced by 80% after drinking a potion with a 40 sec cooldown, but Stamina builds get 3 Seconds of 80% reduction to all their skills and dodge rolls just by breaking free. Thisd means this has what maybe a 6 sec cooldown at most? Yup real balanced right there...sure Magic Builds can use it too, but to no where near the effect a stam build can due to the differences in stamina pools and costs.

Unchained needs to be changed so it only reduces the cost by 80% of their next ability only and it needs to ahve a cooldown comparable to what Foresight has which is tied to potions...Its not even a defensible position that Stam builds should get essentially free skill use for 3 seconds everytime they break free with no cooldown and magic users get jipped with one free spell after drinking a potion with a 40 sec cooldown.

Fix this blantly bias nonsense first then we will have a real start somewhere, and Unchained should not effect dodge roll cost either and is the primary reason you can't run these infinite stam regen roll builds out of Stamina because Ddoge might as well be free when breaking free with unchained. Unless this has changed recently unchained makes dodge essentially free for 3 ses which is complete nonsense.

Ffastyl · July 2016

Break Free costs 4872 Stamina at Level 50 according to eso academy and costs a higher but still undocumented amount for CP 160+ players. This is equivalent to casting 2 low-medium cost abilities without significant cost reduction or 3 of the same with significant cost reduction. 3 seconds is long enough to cast 3 abilities. Unchained is a sort of 'refund' on Break Free.

A potion which restores Magicka can restore 7-9k Magicka based on passives/racials, which is equivalent to 2 or 3 medium cost abilities. By cutting the cost back on one ability afterwards, Foresight changes that refund to 3 or 4 abilities. At high cost reduction, a single Magicka potion covers the cost of 4 or 5 medium cost abilities, with Foresight tilting the range towards a solid 5.

TBois · July 2016

I do miss my old builds and the greater build diversity, but some were too nasty, like how histbark and shuffle stacked. So i do think the more recent homogenization of buffs was a good thing. Also i didnt like how you were able to hit multiple soft caps in earlier patches, but i still prefer having some type of soft caps.

Ishammael · July 2016

TBois wrote: »

I do miss my old builds and the greater build diversity, but some were too nasty, like how histbark and shuffle stacked. So i do think the more recent homogenization of buffs was a good thing. Also i didnt like how you were able to hit multiple soft caps in earlier patches, but i still prefer having some type of soft caps.

The current buff system is good for the reasons you state, agreed.

Stikato · July 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

I think that both 1.5 and post 1.5 had their pro's and con's, and a lot of time these lines were even blurred. For example, dynamic ult generation was a double-edged sword. Or, the rise in stamina builds, which has promoted diversity to an extent, but--as you point out--has been predicated on the reliance on a very small set of skills that themselves lead to homogenization.

In the final analysis, ZOS has botched the entire system by:

- Obfuscating a very confusing combat system at launch (IIRC, destro skills used magicka, were based on weapon damage, except for light / heavy attacks which were based on stamina?)

- Creating a weird magicka /stamina divide between class and weapon skills. So yes, hybrid builds technically "existed", but only because S&S and resto were so damned powerful. Most effective builds utilized the largely-unknown quirks in the system. Unique builds that did not take advantage of these quirks we crushed.

- Perhaps reacting to the pop drop over the first several months, we got 1.6. Immediately it was clear the magicka DK was nerfed to uselessness, Max magicka Sorc was now god-mode, and the removal of soft caps was likely a mistake. But rather than address these individual issues, ZOS doubled-down with the battle-spirit change in order to smooth out the extremes.

- The problem was, the previous emphasis on burst had forced a generation of pvp'ers to learn to rely on active defenses (shields / dodging). All the reduction in damage did was make it insanely hard for newer players to get kills. Despite a LOT of griping on the forums around this time that the better players could not kill as effectively as before, eventually most of us adjusted and figured out how to push damage again.

- Finally, the use of (sometimes difficult to achieve) weapons / armor sets to balance parts of PVP is terrible. Put simply, the sets in this game are themselves OP.

In short, ZOS has pushed massive changes to the system at each large iteration, and refuses to make the small balance passes that a required in a game such as this. The decisions they make continually widen the gulf between players and turn the game into a PVE RNG-fest in order to PVP. This to me does not create a successful RVR style game.

What I am trying to say is, calling this a magicka/stamina divide is not addressing the root cause of these issues: the game was terribly balanced to begin with, and the decisions ZOS has made have not structurally improved it. There is no semblance of balance, unless you are willing to play one of a few set builds.

This is a good overall assessment including points I missed.

Some other things that I thought of while reading.
1. Originally, heavy resto attacks restored mana. No other weapons did this.
2. Resto staff also increased your dmg, which was hilarious.
3. Destro staff passives used to apply to ALL skills, not just the staff skills.
4. Ult gen worked on a range of things which were not explained.

Good recall on the destro passives, I forgot about that!

I would also agree that the current buff system is much better than the old stacking system.

One of the things I always thought was bad for the system on multiple levels was Max stats affecting damage and healing. This became even more of issue with the removal of softcaps.

When my Imperial sorc was magicka, I used to dump a few extra points into stamina so I could use caltrops and still have some leftover stam. This allowed me to drop caltrops and streak through zergs, and the combination of Red Diamond from caltrops, plus some Crit Surge + crushing shock would keep me alive. This build was solely designed around disrupting larger groups in stand-off type situations.

It is a good example of how weird builds used to be... there are both good and bad points to the above example. Dumping extra points into the 'other' stat pool seems silly now, but the strange mechanics I took advantage of (red diamond + caltrops, streak chain-stun, crit surge buffing destro) weren't exactly good design.

I think eventually we figured out all of the weird quirks, but I feel like the opportunity for ZOS to fix these issues individually and slowly was missed in the favor of a series of massive adjustments. Despite the fact that these never seem successful, they just keep going. For example, nerfing sorc shields from 20 to 6 seconds. A good change? Yes/no/maybe. The point is, it was 20 seconds for two years, then 1 day it was 6. Why not try 15, or 12?

I don't mean to sound harsh, I enjoy the character design system in principle, but I feel like the massive changes have gradually taken choice out of the equation which is a shame.

Ishammael · July 2016

Stikato wrote: »

I don't mean to sound harsh, I enjoy the character design system in principle, but I feel like the massive changes have gradually taken choice out of the equation which is a shame.

This is exactly my point.

Right now, character design is "stack dmg or gtfo"

Cathexis · July 2016

Removing softcaps from the game has been a disastrous and destabalizing change that has wildly benefitted a handful of players and class specs to the detriment of build diversity.

All that has from what i see happened is that play has shifted from each individual player having a well balanced play style that could solo or group fight as a style choice, to a chaotic rock paper scissors where you are forced into only one play style at a time (gank/tank/zerg)

zyk · July 2016

Some huge advantages to stam builds:

- roll dodge
- block
- sprint
- break-free
- sneak/stealth
- 1H+shield
- vigor

This used to be somewhat balanced by the fact that most ults and abilities were Magicka based. While this may still be true, there is now enough variety of physical damage ults and abilities that it can no longer be considered a disadvantage IMO.

Ffastyl · July 2016

The disadvantage was Stamina abilities used to cost as much as similarly performing Magicka abilities. Management was much tougher for pure Stamina users. The costs were brought down to ease this and then the power creep settled in an Update or two afterwards. Balance has been 'polarizing' since.

Minalan · July 2016

Ffastyl wrote: »

Break Free costs 4872 Stamina at Level 50 according to eso academy and costs a higher but still undocumented amount for CP 160+ players. This is equivalent to casting 2 low-medium cost abilities without significant cost reduction or 3 of the same with significant cost reduction. 3 seconds is long enough to cast 3 abilities. Unchained is a sort of 'refund' on Break Free.

A potion which restores Magicka can restore 7-9k Magicka based on passives/racials, which is equivalent to 2 or 3 medium cost abilities. By cutting the cost back on one ability afterwards, Foresight changes that refund to 3 or 4 abilities. At high cost reduction, a single Magicka potion covers the cost of 4 or 5 medium cost abilities, with Foresight tilting the range towards a solid 5.

You're counting a blown potion Magicka though in the second case, the Stam build still has a Stam/health pot ready after he breaks free. You're only gaining 1 extra ability tops by drinking a potion, the rest comes from the pot bonus itself.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2016

Bring back soft caps.
Make more stamina version of class skills.
Utilized health attribute into anything.
Add damage cap.

tinythinker · July 2016

Bashev wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I think we need more stats, one for offence, one for defence and one for healing, But this is not lore friendly and ppl will hate it.

My main point is that we need to decouple DMG and STAT from the skill tooltip calculation in order to attempt to sever all Magicka vs all Stamina

This wont be enough. Ppl then will stack weapon or spell damage and regen. If they have descent pool of 20k plus super high regen and high damage we will have the same problem.

So maybe if you stack damage it starts subtracting from your resistance? Make people who stack damage true glass cannons. Can also have an inverse relationship between max stat and regen for that stat if one or the other is stacked over a certain amount. This can be done in addition to decoupling or reducing the effect of max stat on tooltips.

Armitas · July 2016

Brilliant explanation of the situation.

I think the first and foremost cause of the situation is parallel offense and defense. Here is one way to to make them perpendicular.

Damage - Scales from weapon/spell power and scales with stamina and magicka at 1/3 of it's current rate. Lower the effect of cost reduction and recovery in the CP tree. Make Magicka and stamina give recovery at a low rate. So that you are forced to recoup your recovery at the cost of weapon/spell power.

Shields - Scales from health only. Hardened Ward continues to scale from Max Magicka which is now an inefficient damage source..(KenaPPK)

Healing - No longer scales with weapon/spell power. Scales from max magicka and stamina at ~133%% of it's current rate. (% is approximate and intended to represent a value the retains group healing capacity. )

Blocking/Dodging - Dodge roll and block continue to consume stamina. Dodge roll reduction is removed from medium armor. Block and dodge have their cost reduced based on max health.

KenaPKK · July 2016

@Armitas When pelinal's aptitude was unveiled, I said that it was a step forward for hybrid build viability but that one more step was needed before they were to be on par with nonhybrids, and that it is tied to resource scaling. Your proposal is thoughtful in that everything would get toned down and would scale on different stats. Hybrid builds would thrive with these changes!

Also, the exceptions to the rules interest me.

For example, swallow soul applies a hot based on a percentage of damage dealt. Shields and heals based on damage dealt would become standout abilities which create class diversity. Swallow soul mageblades would become deceptively tanky from their hot while not gaining resistance to burst. I like that!

Hardened ward could remain scaling on max magicka or even shift to scaling with spell damage. With harness scaling off of health, I think that would let sorcs keep some of their trademark "build magicka for shield defense" identity without becoming overtuned or remaining two dimensional in the new system. Also the dampen magic morph of harness could provide more shield for wearing light armor without violating the new scaling system at the loss of harness' sustain. The various morphs of blazing and igneous shields would fit into the game again, which would be great! I'd love to hear a templar's feedback to your ideas.

Removing dodge roll cost from medium armor is interesting. Perhaps increase their sprint cost reduction, foster a balance environment where they can use forward momentum for tons of snare immunity, and let them dart all over the place without rolling around so much unless they build for health. Heavy armor would become slightly more rolly polly from the max health passives. My immersions question this implication, but I doubt that would change much balance wise. I predict a lot more 5 medium 2 heavy slightly tankier nightblade gankers running around. Lol

Overall man, I gotta say I like the way this looks in general. As Sypher and Ish have pointed out in their discussions, damage and healing need to be toned down and unhinged from each other and from durability. You formatted this well.

Everything in PvP and PvE would need rebalancing though...and I question ZOS' commitment to such an endeavor for now.

Armitas · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Hardened ward could remain scaling on max magicka or even shift to scaling with spell damage.

Thats a great idea. Would allow sorcs to stay unique and still achieve the same purpose. Going to add that in.

Torbschka · July 2016

Everytime I read such posts I am like:

Why the *** Zenimax didnt make it easy for them and just impelement these Ideas. Hell this Ideads are well thought and structured, they just have to put them and bring them in.

There was once a map with how Cyrodill should change (towers, towns etc.) and was amazing lol.

Ishammael · July 2016

Torbschka wrote: »

Everytime I read such posts I am like:

Why the *** Zenimax didnt make it easy for them and just impelement these Ideas. Hell this Ideads are well thought and structured, they just have to put them and bring them in.

There was once a map with how Cyrodill should change (towers, towns etc.) and was amazing lol.

Yeah, I made that thread about how to change cyrodiil.

Ishammael · July 2016

Torbschka wrote: »

Everytime I read such posts I am like:

Why the *** Zenimax didnt make it easy for them and just impelement these Ideas. Hell this Ideads are well thought and structured, they just have to put them and bring them in.

There was once a map with how Cyrodill should change (towers, towns etc.) and was amazing lol.

Yeah I made that map with cyrodiil addition suggestions.

Torbschka · July 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Everytime I read such posts I am like:

Why the *** Zenimax didnt make it easy for them and just impelement these Ideas. Hell this Ideads are well thought and structured, they just have to put them and bring them in.

There was once a map with how Cyrodill should change (towers, towns etc.) and was amazing lol.

Yeah I made that map with cyrodiil addition suggestions.

so why the *** they didnt offer you at least an internship or anything to implement this. I dont get it, they had a *** whole completed map and just did nothing. Did they even response in your thread?

Ishammael · July 2016

Torbschka wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Everytime I read such posts I am like:

Why the *** Zenimax didnt make it easy for them and just impelement these Ideas. Hell this Ideads are well thought and structured, they just have to put them and bring them in.

There was once a map with how Cyrodill should change (towers, towns etc.) and was amazing lol.

Yeah I made that map with cyrodiil addition suggestions.

so why the *** they didnt offer you at least an internship or anything to implement this. I dont get it, they had a *** whole completed map and just did nothing. Did they even response in your thread?

Haha, thanks for comments. I have a fine job, so no need or desire for internship. Just had hoped they would take the suggestions and run with it. No comments on the thread, but town capture is coming to cyrodiil in the next patch.