Be Honest... Sorcerers Got Hit Too Hard? (or didn't)
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Cronopoly✭✭✭✭✭PVP
Prior to Dark Brotherhood the too powerful Shield Stacking that was used hid an underlying major problem. The imbalance of resource pools in PVP.
Magicka Classes don't have the Stamina pool to really do well in a core combat PVP requirement (Dodge, CC break, Sprint), and if a Magicka player buffs their Stam resource pool to support these, its at the expense of their Magicka pool and they lose a ton of damage.
Stamina toons can rely on simply just 1 main resource pool and not get bogged down micromanaging resources:
Damage
Dodge
CC break
Sprint
Heal
"Most" Magicka toons typically spec just in 1 main pool supporting their damage and healing abilities, and this leaves them highly free AP in open world PVP.
Damage
Heal
CCbreak- highly limited
Sprint - highly limited
Dodge - highly limited
So...
The shield nerf by itself was not bad for PVE of course, but in PVP, it exposes the situation where PVP resource pool imbalance makes magicka toons free AP most times than not, in open world PVP.
Why? With 2 or 3 shields the situation above didn't necessarily kill a Sorc, and was highly frustrating to many a Stamina toon trying to Wrecking Blow a Sorc who could not be damaged with stacking shields. Good to halfbaked Sorcs took full advantage of this and lived likely longer than they should have in close combat.
Now:
With Shields basically gutted to the extreme, you went from a Sorc who could prior get hit on for 3 - 7 seconds in close combat or ranged without refreshing shields, to today having no choice but to refresh Shield & Heal constantly with paper armor when under Tactical Pressure otherwise you'll be 1 or 2 shot.
Stamina toons love not having to micromanage and can apply Tactical Pressure with little worries. At 28m Dodge roll, (2 seconds 100% immunity, what's not to love), Gap Close, CC/WB spam...they don't have to let up the Tactical Pressure and good PVP'ers know this. If you go full defensive first typically you die.
A normal Sorc trying to apply Tactical Pressure has some issues to come to grips with. They have no spammable class DD ability, and most if not all skills are dodgeable. Once they CC break, Dodge, or sprint to reposition they are free again AP. Many lead with a streak into enemies, which they break easily, and since they now have CC immunity, it's on.
Gap close rinse repeat.
Most times, a procced Crystal Frag is coming home to mama as its reflected. Negate bot indeed. Streak was good at one time, but now it's just waiting to be gap closed as you get rooted at the end for 1 second. Mines...good melee players just rotate around them or just eat one.
Oh and Pets...
In summary there's some room for further discussion where any Magicka Sorc thinks they are helpful in PVP outside of Negate...
PVP "Required" skills imbalance is the problem and was highly masked by stacking shields. Now that this is clearly exposed, some middle ground is desired...
Edited by Cronopoly on July 17, 2016 5:31PM10 -
Molag_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jwilkins66ub17_ESO wrote: »PVP
Prior to Dark Brotherhood the too powerful Shield Stacking that was used hid an underlying major problem. The imbalance of resource pools in PVP.
Magicka Classes don't have the Stamina pool to really do well in a core combat PVP requirement (Dodge, CC break, Sprint), and if a Magicka player buffs their Stam resource pool to support these, its at the expense of their Magicka pool and they lose a ton of damage.
Stamina toons can rely on simply just 1 main resource pool and not get bogged down micromanaging resources:
Damage
Dodge
CC break
Sprint
Heal
"Most" Magicka toons typically spec just in 1 main pool supporting their damage and healing abilities, and this leaves them highly free AP in open world PVP.
Damage
Heal
CCbreak- highly limited
Sprint - highly limited
Dodge - highly limited
So...
The shield nerf by itself was not bad for PVE of course, but in PVP, it exposes the situation where PVP resource pool imbalance makes magicka toons free AP most times than not, in open world PVP.
Why? With 2 or 3 shields the situation above didn't necessarily kill a Sorc, and was highly frustrating to many a Stamina toon trying to Wrecking Blow a Sorc who could not be damaged with stacking shields. Good to halfbaked Sorcs took full advantage of this and lived likely longer than they should have in close combat.
Now:
With Shields basically gutted to the extreme, you went from a Sorc who could prior get hit on for 3 - 7 seconds in close combat or ranged without refreshing shields, to today having no choice but to refresh Shield & Heal constantly with paper armor when under Tactical Pressure otherwise you'll be 1 or 2 shot.
Stamina toons love not having to micromanage and can apply Tactical Pressure with little worries. At 28m Dodge roll, (2 seconds 100% immunity, what's not to love), Gap Close, CC/WB spam...they don't have to let up the Tactical Pressure and good PVP'ers know this. If you go full defensive first typically you die.
A normal Sorc trying to apply Tactical Pressure has some issues to come to grips with. They have no spammable class DD ability, and most if not all skills are dodgeable. Once they CC break, Dodge, or sprint to reposition they are free again AP. Many lead with a streak into enemies, which they break easily, and since they now have CC immunity, it's on. Gap close rinse repeat.
Most times, a procced Crystal Frag is coming home to mama as its reflected. Negate bot indeed. Streak was good at one time, but now it's just waiting to be gap closed as you get rooted at the end for 1 second. Mines...good melee players just rotate around them or just eat one.
Oh and Pets...
In summary there's some room for further discussion where any Magicka Sorc thinks they are helpful in PVP outside of Negate...
PVP "Required" skills imbalance is the problem and was highly masked by stacking shields. Now that this is clearly exposed, some middle ground is desired...
You couldn't have said it ANY better! honestly... totally agree.--ϟ-- Crows_Descend - Templar - Ebonheart Pact [PS4]&[PC] [EU] --ϟ--
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The greatest prison that people live in, is the fear of what other people think. - David Icke
Be your true, authentic self.2 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on July 17, 2016 5:59PM0 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not sure if I posted here or not. Magicka sorc is fine, stop whining (any who are). You needed a shield cost or durability nerf. You didn't get this, so consider yourselves lucky.
I started playing Magicka sorc after the shield nerf, and I am kicking ass with it. My sorc gets more damage in Seducer and Engine Guardian than my mageblade gets in a full damage spec as well as more mobility and defense that a mageblade ever will -- all with very little sacrifice.
You're fine. Sorc feels pretty balanced compared to fighting as and against other stuff in my opinion. No offense to any lovely sorc players out there, but if you're having trouble, it honestly is a failure to adapt.
Use more impen, front bar hardened if you are not quick with weapon swaps, use Power Surge for its heal, and embrace streak and mines as offensive zoning tools. To me, sorc is soooooo fun because there are so many cool tools in its defensive arsenal besides shield spam.3 -
AshTal✭✭✭✭Issue was people throwing up 50K shields in PvP. The nerf has stopped this but I think it punished average players too much as well as the uber 1%.
My hope is we get something to compensate the complete obliteration of our shields.0 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
Alright dude...w/e you say...no one was running my rotation and my set combination till I posted it...as a matter of fact after I posted it people said it wouldn't work. There was zero of a spike in popularity of lightning staff till this build. Since you can't medium weave a lightning staff. Everyone was using a fire destro. I'm ok with you disagreeing with whether the build is viable or not...but to call it unoriginal is insulting since I came up with it, the skill set that I use and the rotation that I adopted. Also rotation is everything. On my Stam DK using 2 different rotation can result in a 5k dps loss. So optimization of rotation matters.0 -
rokrdt05✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
I'm not sure you know the facts. Fact is no one was using (or very very few people) were using a Lightning staff until he published this build for his sorc and his DK. You can also easily see post dates.
The fact the build utilizes sets and a certain rotation is what makes it unique. All NB's use the same abilities, but the way they use (rotation) is what can make it unique. Check your facts before you start spouting non sense.Server: PC - North America - Daggerfall/Ebonheart
Guilds: Order of the Bear | From The Dust
Blaze | Sorcerer | DC | Former Empress
Ulterior Motive | Templar | DC
Detka's Tank | Dragon Knight | DC
Tëmpëst | Sorceror | EP | Former Emperor
Fíre | Nightblade | EP
'Fire| Nightblade | DC
Spëctrë | Templar | DC
Ashléy Olsén| Dragon Knight | EP1 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Issue was people throwing up 50K shields in PvP. The nerf has stopped this but I think it punished average players too much as well as the uber 1%.
My hope is we get something to compensate the complete obliteration of our shields.
The average players will always pay the most for anything the 1% does. There is no getting around it. Any leeway will allow the 1%s to continue to do things that they were never meant to accomplish.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax0 -
iam117✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
Your right it uses skills thst sorcs have and have used, but the amount of time and effort that comes and the hours of testing to truly make sure each skill is use able I think is beyond what your thinking, he didn't just modify a old build, hours went into making sure each skill belonged, and each dmg skill was tested to make sure it did or didn't belong. So give credit where due. He came up with a build that has never been used, and I have now used it to complete every piece of content in the game. It works, and it took work, I know because I watched, heard, and helped with testing. It's unique because no one has anything similar.<Liv3mind><PC/NA - Legion Of The Bloodworks>Snowflake Patrol0 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
Alright dude...w/e you say...no one was running my rotation and my set combination till I posted it...as a matter of fact after I posted it people said it wouldn't work. There was zero of a spike in popularity of lightning staff till this build. Since you can't medium weave a lightning staff. Everyone was using a fire destro. I'm ok with you disagreeing with whether the build is viable or not...but to call it unoriginal is insulting since I came up with it, the skill set that I use and the rotation that I adopted. Also rotation is everything. On my Stam DK using 2 different rotation can result in a 5k dps loss. So optimization of rotation matters.
Optimization of rotation matters, of course, I never claimed otherwise. But on your other post I replied to, you claimed you were not using the same skills and same role on your sorcerer and the problem was lack of creativity of the players, not the lack of variety of the sorcerers. But the skills you are using on that build and the role it was made for are precisely what the sorcerers have been pigeonholed into doing. But as I said before, your own spin you added to it was nice, like no weaving and no overload. I didn't mean to offend you.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
I'm not sure you know the facts. Fact is no one was using (or very very few people) were using a Lightning staff until he published this build for his sorc and his DK. You can also easily see post dates.
The fact the build utilizes sets and a certain rotation is what makes it unique. All NB's use the same abilities, but the way they use (rotation) is what can make it unique. Check your facts before you start spouting non sense.
The person I replied to claimed he wasn't using the same skills, which wasn't the case in the end. That is pretty straightforward, I don't see how that can be considered "nonsense". NBs have a little more freedom regarding their skill bars depending of what you want to do with them, and are a more forgiving class altogether.
Regarding the use of Lightning Staves, that wasn't what I observed in game, but whatever. We have different sample groups I assume.
My complaint regarding sorcerers is precisely how only a handful of class skills are used. I believe there is a recent thread speaking of the Pets problem that addresses that issue too.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
Alright dude...w/e you say...no one was running my rotation and my set combination till I posted it...as a matter of fact after I posted it people said it wouldn't work. There was zero of a spike in popularity of lightning staff till this build. Since you can't medium weave a lightning staff. Everyone was using a fire destro. I'm ok with you disagreeing with whether the build is viable or not...but to call it unoriginal is insulting since I came up with it, the skill set that I use and the rotation that I adopted. Also rotation is everything. On my Stam DK using 2 different rotation can result in a 5k dps loss. So optimization of rotation matters.
Optimization of rotation matters, of course, I never claimed otherwise. But on your other post I replied to, you claimed you were not using the same skills and same role on your sorcerer and the problem was lack of creativity of the players, not the lack of variety of the sorcerers. But the skills you are using on that build and the role it was made for are precisely what the sorcerers have been pigeonholed into doing. But as I said before, your own spin you added to it was nice, like no weaving and no overload. I didn't mean to offend you.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
I'm not sure you know the facts. Fact is no one was using (or very very few people) were using a Lightning staff until he published this build for his sorc and his DK. You can also easily see post dates.
The fact the build utilizes sets and a certain rotation is what makes it unique. All NB's use the same abilities, but the way they use (rotation) is what can make it unique. Check your facts before you start spouting non sense.
The person I replied to claimed he wasn't using the same skills, which wasn't the case in the end. That is pretty straightforward, I don't see how that can be considered "nonsense". NBs have a little more freedom regarding their skill bars depending of what you want to do with them, and are a more forgiving class altogether.
Regarding the use of Lightning Staves, that wasn't what I observed in game, but whatever. We have different sample groups I assume.
My complaint regarding sorcerers is precisely how only a handful of class skills are used. I believe there is a recent thread speaking of the Pets problem that addresses that issue too.
I mean if we use your logic then all builds are the same by definition since there are so few skills you can actually use. If you want to use semantics then there are no original builds at all. But that's nothe how it works. My build has no spammable and uses heavy attacks...that is something no one was doing before it was posted.1 -
Blackbird_V✭✭✭✭✭
✭Clarkieson wrote: »Nerf Sorcs
Buff DK’s
No one dare say anything about nightblades or there will be tears before bedtime
Templars are perfectly balanced
I agree! Nightblades are OP so nerf sorcs more!Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭darthsithis wrote: »Our light armor and shields protects us from a wrecking blow->crit charge->reverse slash combo rarely ever unless you manage to streak away or miraculously get a ward up long enough to healing ward, only to get punished again.
I don't think this is a sorc issue. What you are describing is a light armor vs. penetration issue, the Cyrodiil snareapalooza, and stamina being overtuned right now. Stam has heals, mobility and damage in one package, and none of the magicka classes do. Light armor is pretty much a wet paper towel for protection. It's why many magplars and magDKs are in heavy armor now. Making a change that fixes this for sorc doesn't fix the underlying issue.
I am unhappy with the changes, but I'm back on DW and still only using one shield and no overload although I'm still tweaking. And it's working. Although of course I still get my butt kicked by better players, and even scrubby stam gao closer builds can be an oversized challenge.Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build
Something different (not mine).0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mag sorc is still the best magicka class in the game 1v1 or 1vX so that lets you know how powerful they were last patch since they are still really good after all the nerfs. Most of the problems mag sorcs are talking about are a lot worse on the other magicka characters at the moment. Light armor sucks and magicka classes have little mobility and are really weak to cc.0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »#BUFFSTAVES
#FreeSorcsFromStaves
Sorcerers, only class in the game without a spammable ability.
Are you actually complaining about a lack of spammability? Even if I did agree they don't have one saying it's a bad thing is acinine.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
ZoM_Head✭✭✭✭When you have one templar using extended ritual, that costs nothing, and removing 5 negative effects then automatically triggering major mending and healing at low health with 1 breath of life for 10K+ all while able to spam jeasus beam at someone with full health from 30m away....yeah that is so balanced.
Sorcs and especially DKs need some serious tweaks in pvp.
Kindly of clear to me that the dev's main chars are templars and nightblades, hence why they are the absolute most easiest to play in pvp (imo) when compared to Sorcs and DK.
But this is nothing new, we kept bombarding Zenimax with this since IC and they kept giving Temps and NBs buffs and now the shields nerf/change, like the DKs were running around keeping igneous shields up 24/7.
I personally do not see Zenimax touching Sorcs and Dks, unless another 30+ page thread pops up specifically about this (which almost did in the past).mDKs still need a lot of love!1 -
K4RMA✭✭✭✭I don't see too much of an issue despite the need for more resource management, which is where numerous sets can assist:
Engine Guardian (top pick)
Seducer
Transmutation (four piece)
The trick is to find a balance between damage and sustain.nerf mdk0 -
xericdx✭✭✭jwilkins66ub17_ESO wrote: »PVP
Prior to Dark Brotherhood the too powerful Shield Stacking that was used hid an underlying major problem. The imbalance of resource pools in PVP.
Magicka Classes don't have the Stamina pool to really do well in a core combat PVP requirement (Dodge, CC break, Sprint), and if a Magicka player buffs their Stam resource pool to support these, its at the expense of their Magicka pool and they lose a ton of damage.
Stamina toons can rely on simply just 1 main resource pool and not get bogged down micromanaging resources:
Damage
Dodge
CC break
Sprint
Heal
"Most" Magicka toons typically spec just in 1 main pool supporting their damage and healing abilities, and this leaves them highly free AP in open world PVP.
Damage
Heal
CCbreak- highly limited
Sprint - highly limited
Dodge - highly limited
So...
The shield nerf by itself was not bad for PVE of course, but in PVP, it exposes the situation where PVP resource pool imbalance makes magicka toons free AP most times than not, in open world PVP.
Why? With 2 or 3 shields the situation above didn't necessarily kill a Sorc, and was highly frustrating to many a Stamina toon trying to Wrecking Blow a Sorc who could not be damaged with stacking shields. Good to halfbaked Sorcs took full advantage of this and lived likely longer than they should have in close combat.
Now:
With Shields basically gutted to the extreme, you went from a Sorc who could prior get hit on for 3 - 7 seconds in close combat or ranged without refreshing shields, to today having no choice but to refresh Shield & Heal constantly with paper armor when under Tactical Pressure otherwise you'll be 1 or 2 shot.
Stamina toons love not having to micromanage and can apply Tactical Pressure with little worries. At 28m Dodge roll, (2 seconds 100% immunity, what's not to love), Gap Close, CC/WB spam...they don't have to let up the Tactical Pressure and good PVP'ers know this. If you go full defensive first typically you die.
A normal Sorc trying to apply Tactical Pressure has some issues to come to grips with. They have no spammable class DD ability, and most if not all skills are dodgeable. Once they CC break, Dodge, or sprint to reposition they are free again AP. Many lead with a streak into enemies, which they break easily, and since they now have CC immunity, it's on. Gap close rinse repeat.
Most times, a procced Crystal Frag is coming home to mama as its reflected. Negate bot indeed. Streak was good at one time, but now it's just waiting to be gap closed as you get rooted at the end for 1 second. Mines...good melee players just rotate around them or just eat one.
Oh and Pets...
In summary there's some room for further discussion where any Magicka Sorc thinks they are helpful in PVP outside of Negate...
PVP "Required" skills imbalance is the problem and was highly masked by stacking shields. Now that this is clearly exposed, some middle ground is desired...
Completely agree.
Honestly, my main is a MagSorc and I am still having a lot of fun with it even after the nerf to shield. Actually, the fact that I had to be more careful increased the fun for me and I am enjoying the (new) learning curve. I have never complained about balance/imbalance and actually think that ZOS is not doing a bad job overall.
...Having said that.... I think that what you said it's a very, very valid point and can see it with my 2nd char (Stamina). I have no problem being obliged to reduce damage output to increase survivability on my magicka char (stamina and immov pots against CCs cause CC: is the end, etc.) but indeed I see a general imbalance problem between Stamina and Magicka.
The nerf of perma-blocking was a good thing (and I say it with a beloved stamina tank) and forced us to improve our gameplay. I am not calling for a nerf to dodge-rollers or stamina in general but is there a way we could balance it against magika users? Or Stamina builds have weakness that we are not seeing ? One fact is that most of dps stamina builds will have to fight close combats (a part from Bows, but bows don't have the same damage output) and this taking a greater risk. Is this sufficient as compensation? Could be interesting to have a separate thread on this.
Edited by xericdx on July 19, 2016 12:15PMCharactersPrimo Aldouine (MagSorc), AD
Kro'zuc Primo (StamDK), AD
Primo Leyla, MagDK, DC
Primo Salazar (MagPlar), AD
Leyla Softpawn (StamBade), AD
Shaz Primo (MagBlade), AD
Marcus Primo (MagDen), EP
Elonthor Primo (StamDen), AD
The Red, MagNecro, AD
You like housing?! We have the place for you: Tamriel Homes Guild! Contact me for info (in-game ID @xericdx) or visit our website https://tamrielhomes.com/
PC EU0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
Alright dude...w/e you say...no one was running my rotation and my set combination till I posted it...as a matter of fact after I posted it people said it wouldn't work. There was zero of a spike in popularity of lightning staff till this build. Since you can't medium weave a lightning staff. Everyone was using a fire destro. I'm ok with you disagreeing with whether the build is viable or not...but to call it unoriginal is insulting since I came up with it, the skill set that I use and the rotation that I adopted. Also rotation is everything. On my Stam DK using 2 different rotation can result in a 5k dps loss. So optimization of rotation matters.
We haven't been medium weaving since the heavy attack nerf to destro staff. Using lightning was popular before DB. Liquid lightning, Elemental blockade, and Boundless storm has been the the meta for sorcs in trials since..... forever? You may have used different sets than what was considered meta, but your skills haven't changed... that doesn't make an entirely new and unique build.#SavePlayer13 -
KiraTsukasa✭✭✭✭✭At least it's not like another game I played where mages got nerfed to hell in both PvP and PvE just because warriors with no magic def cried OP in PvP.
And then got archers' evasion nerfed the same way.
And then got clerics' block rate nerfed the same way.
And then got their stun locks to be easier to do.
And then the potion making economy got ridiculous because no one wanted to play as any class other than warrior due to the rest sucking so bad.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
Alright dude...w/e you say...no one was running my rotation and my set combination till I posted it...as a matter of fact after I posted it people said it wouldn't work. There was zero of a spike in popularity of lightning staff till this build. Since you can't medium weave a lightning staff. Everyone was using a fire destro. I'm ok with you disagreeing with whether the build is viable or not...but to call it unoriginal is insulting since I came up with it, the skill set that I use and the rotation that I adopted. Also rotation is everything. On my Stam DK using 2 different rotation can result in a 5k dps loss. So optimization of rotation matters.
We haven't been medium weaving since the heavy attack nerf to destro staff. Using lightning was popular before DB. Liquid lightning, Elemental blockade, and Boundless storm has been the the meta for sorcs in trials since..... forever? You may have used different sets than what was considered meta, but your skills haven't changed... that doesn't make an entirely new and unique build.
Aww honey, clearly you don't do any endgame PvE...I've never seen anyone in any endgame PvE do what my build calls for until DB and it is because it wasn't viable, as in your damage was utter crap. You specifically need infal to make it work. So you're straight up lying, which is fine darling
As for using the same skills, a sorc has 15 skills total outside of ultis, all builds use a combination of some of those skills. No one was doing the combination of skills/rotation/gear that is in my build...nothing even remotely aimilar baby....you can continue to make false statements regarding this, but that doesn't change the facts...try again cutie:) 0 -
sluice✭✭✭✭Sorc's are fine. They still hit just as hard.
Saying it for the X times...
A great Sorc pre DB is still a great Sorc in DB.
A good sorc knows that his shield won't last more than 6 seconds vs a good player anyway.
He's already ready to put them back up every 6 seconds.
He knows his survival comes from other tools than simply stacking shields : Mines, Streak, Defensive Runes, etc.
The true issue with shorter shield is the get ganked with your shields down. Solution: Defensive Rune (put it on your third bar.)
EDIT: removed erroneous statement.
Edited by sluice on July 19, 2016 3:49PMPSN: sluiceqc (NA-PS4) CP: 551+
I strictly play on Daggerfall Covenant for when it comes to PvPDaggerfall Covenant
sluice - Orc Sorcerer (50)
Anýa - Bosmer Nightblade (0..50)
Aldmeri Dominion (PvE only)
Arýä - Altmer Sorcerer (50)
Marksar - Breton Templar (50)
Maksar - Bosmer Nightblade (50)
sluice - Imperial Dragonknight (0..50) R.I.P.
Ebonheart Pact
Can't-Heal-Stupid - Argonian Templar (0..50)
#VMATOKENSYSTEM #TRAITCHANGE
(vMA) drop table and probability0 -
DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Molag_Crow wrote: »Despite this topic, I've recently went against some good Sorcs in Cyrodiil and I have to say, they didn't get hit "too hard" at all come to think of it... they can still hold their weight, even though they run outta magicka quicker (i think) they're strong with the right set up!
This kind of thinking is really what damages the magicka sorcerer.
Yes, it is possible to play a magicka sorcerer well. With one build. One role. The same skills. The same sets. No variation.
And yet there are people who say there isn't a problem. Because oh they can do that one thing on that one way in an acceptable manner.
But this isn't a new issue, unfortunately. And I am not sure if @Wrobel is aware that the pigeonholing is the issue.
I don't play the sorcerer with the same build, same skills and same role. The issue is lack of creativity from the player base, not a lack of possible builds...
Would you mind posting your magicka sorcerer builds, then? Because that one on your signature is not very different from the "mainstream" magicka sorcerer build (just to clarify, I am not criticizing your build, challenging you or being condescending. I just genuinely wish I didn't have to always go back to those same skills, same lightning staves, same TBS... Although I appreciate your build being "free from Overload". Yikes).
Magicka sorcerer had been my main since beta, but I made another magicka sorcerer this year and I am having trouble making her really different from my main without making her worse than my other 9 characters. There is no reason to play as her other than RP reasons, because anything that she can do differently than my main magicka sorcerer my characters of other classes do better.
What do you mean? The meta is a fire vMA staff 2 Kena or Nerieneth 5 TBS or Julianos 3 willpower/infal/Moondancer. You use frags and force pulse.
My build is completely different and uses lightning staff heavy attack while maintaining Boundless, Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade...how is that not completely different? The sets I run are also 5 infallible 5 TBS and my use of Soul Assault is something no one is doing as far as I'm aware. The concept is completely different since you are not weaving at all. I dont think you actually read through the build. This is the new meta for vMoL.
I did read through the build, actually.
Your build is an amplified version of what is commonly used on the second bar for AoE for solo PvE playing, which is why I said it is not very different from the mainstream magicka sorcerer build. What you described as meta (spamming force pulse and frags) is for single target DPS. Anyways, your build uses overused skills like Lightning Splash, Inner Light, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis and Mages Wrath. These are skills that every magicka sorcerer have been running since the beginning, and the reason why I don't find your build to be "completely different". Lightning Staff benefits from the Sorcerers passives and is especially annoying on PvP. Because of that, it had a spike on popularity lately. My main Magicka Sorcerer has a pretty similar setup to what you proposed on her second bar.
Another thing that does not make your build "completely different" is that it is a DPS build, like pretty much every other Magicka Sorcerer build. As I said before, same old skills, same old sets (on this case, you used two very popular sets, Torug's Pact and TBS), same old role.
But I am not criticizing your build by any means. It is a pretty good build after all, and not hard to achieve, so kudos to you. And again, I'm glad it doesn't use Overload because honestly I hate that ultimate after using it for so long. I am just saying that it is not as different from what is commonly used as I would like, having two Magicka Sorcerers, especially after DB (a lot of people gave up on the Kena/Julianos/Willpower setup because they can't deal with the nerf on shield duration and needed to be less squishy). And again, the skills used are the main similarity to what is mainstream, but that is the problem that I wish ZOS would address anyway - the skill variety.
I do like that your build does not use weaving. But it still uses the same overused skills that we have been using since forever. Which is fine, it works, again I'm not by any means saying your build is bad, your build is great. But I want to use different skills on my sorcerers too
Alright dude...w/e you say...no one was running my rotation and my set combination till I posted it...as a matter of fact after I posted it people said it wouldn't work. There was zero of a spike in popularity of lightning staff till this build. Since you can't medium weave a lightning staff. Everyone was using a fire destro. I'm ok with you disagreeing with whether the build is viable or not...but to call it unoriginal is insulting since I came up with it, the skill set that I use and the rotation that I adopted. Also rotation is everything. On my Stam DK using 2 different rotation can result in a 5k dps loss. So optimization of rotation matters.
We haven't been medium weaving since the heavy attack nerf to destro staff. Using lightning was popular before DB. Liquid lightning, Elemental blockade, and Boundless storm has been the the meta for sorcs in trials since..... forever? You may have used different sets than what was considered meta, but your skills haven't changed... that doesn't make an entirely new and unique build.
Aww honey, clearly you don't do any endgame PvE...I've never seen anyone in any endgame PvE do what my build calls for until DB and it is because it wasn't viable, as in your damage was utter crap. You specifically need infal to make it work. So you're straight up lying, which is fine darling As for using the same skills, a sorc has 15 skills total outside of ultis, all builds use a combination of some of those skills. No one was doing the combination of skills/rotation/gear that is in my build...nothing even remotely aimilar baby....you can continue to make false statements regarding this, but that doesn't change the facts...try again cutie:)
You're either being incredibly condescending or you're Tallulah Bankhead. "Darling"? Try "Dahling".3 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭sorcs got hit with the fun bat mostly. Just not engaging to play. In fact, if I am going to be grinding sewers, for example, I always log in to my magplar. that's a problem.
so just to illustrate...why would I use a dirt devil to clean the downstairs carpets when I can use the bigger/better vacuum cleaner? Pretty much the same point.
dont get me wrong thou, I absolutely LOVE my sorc. And I love the challenge PvP brings to the class, but it seems like everyone else can do just as much as me and better. I feel like I have NO defining skills. Yeah bolt escape is unique but now everyone has a gap closer to the point sorc mobility is absent.Edited by Makkir on July 19, 2016 3:39PM4
